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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Jun 1987

Vol. 373 No. 10

Finance Bill, 1987: Report Stage (Resumed) and Fifth Stage.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 6:
In page 9, line 34, after "duties" to insert the following:
"or to interest on money borrowed on foot of contracts entered into prior to 31st March, 1987".
—(Deputy Noonan,Limerick East.)

(Limerick East): I made some preliminary remarks on the Minister's policy on interest rates. I want now to refer to the precise implications of amendment No. 6.

I object to this section and if I had been in a position to vote against the section yesterday I would have done so. I put down this amendment first because there is an increase in income tax involved in the abolition of the 10 per cent mortgage interest relief. In the budget we put before the people as part of our election campaign, we committed ourselves to having no tax relief of any sort and to balancing the national accounts by means of expenditure cuts. The Minister's proposal increases income tax on anybody who has a mortgage. In the case of young people who are recently married and who have full mortgages of £29,000 or £30,000, it increases the amount of income tax they pay by £20 or £25 a week.

Secondly, I am opposed to it because it is the thin end of the wedge. I have seen proposals along the line of this one coming from the Department of Finance previously. Of course, all the relief will not be abolished in one fell swoop but once the precedent is established that the mortgage interest relief is vulnerable, I assure the House that next year the Minister will return with a proposal to bring the 90 per cent down to 60 per cent and the year after that it will be 30 per cent and before we know where we are mortgage interest relief will be abolished completely. There are other reliefs of a similar nature, for example, relief on insurance policies and on VHI insurance. The Minister's proposal is the thin end of the wedge introduced into this House in an incremental fashion. He will proceed, if he is Minister, over the next few years to totally remove mortgage interest relief and proceed from there to remove other reliefs in income tax as well.

Thirdly, I object to this proposal because it is unfair and discriminatory in that at a time when the Minister expects interest rates to decline, no benefit will accrue to the mortgagee because what one gains from declining interest rates, one loses by having the mortgage interest relief reduced. On a quick calculation I think interest rates on mortgages would have to fall by 1½ per cent before mortgage holders would break even and recover what they will lose by the reduction in the relief. All the headlines in the world informing people that their mortgages are coming down and that there will be substantial reductions in their payments to banks and building societies cut no ice at all when on the other hand their income tax is going up as a result of the removal of this relief.

We need to establish confidence in the building industry. The building industry were full of hope last year because they thought that, after an election which the Minister's party were predicted to win, happy days would be here again and the building industry would be stimulated by massive expenditure of capital. I understand a commitment was given by the Minister's party to spend a further £200 million and that VAT on building would be reduced from 10 per cent to 5 per cent. Instead of that, there has been a massive cut in the capital programme for the building industry. There has been no reduction in the VAT rate which applies to the building industry and a whole package of house grants, including the home improvement grants, have been abolished.

This will be a further blow to the building industry, because the mortgage interest relief is a mechanism which allows people to trade up. People on high gross incomes and on high marginal rates of tax find it in their intrests to trade up and this has stimulated the building industry in the past and will do so in future. I am sure the Minister will say that 10 per cent is neither here nor there, but if one gets a mortgage of £30,000 or £40,000 on the basis of 100 per cent tax relief and then one finds it reduced, one does not know the Minister's intentions for the future, one would think again before one traded up. This is a further nail in the coffin of the building industry.

When we take this with section 33 where the Minister is imposing 10 per cent extra tax on the profits which banks make on the home loan sector of their business, it is a further heavy imposition on the building industry. There will be no confidence in the House building industry as a result of this proposal. I know the Minister needs the money and that he has his sums done on the basis of getting £10 million from this measure. The amendment I am proposing will allow him to introduce this change and it will only apply to new mortgages and to borrowings and contracts entered into after 31 March 1987. Anybody who borrowed money to buy a house on the basis of 100 per cent mortgage tax relief, prior to the Minister's announcement, should in all fairness be allowed the full benefit of that 100 per cent tax relief.

That is a very unfair measure and another attack on the vulnerable sections. It affects particularly PAYE people and none of the PAYE allowances is indexed. There is no improvement in the tax position of PAYE workers. Here, anybody on PAYE income tax who has a home loan will have to pay extra income tax. Any benefit that might accrue from declining interest rates it totally cancelled by this measure. I would prefer to be voting against the section, but as we did not get to it yesterday for reasons known to everybody, I took the opportunity to express my views on this amendment and on the next amendment which I will be moving when we complete discussion on this.

The Deputy has rolled his remarks on this amendment into the next amendment as well so, with the permission of the Chair, I will respond in that manner. This amendment just talks about money borrowed on foot of contracts entered into prior to 31 March. I heard Deputy Noonan's remarks on this inside and outside the House over the past few weeks. I can only repeat what I have already said. This concession will cost £160 million a year. What is being done in this measure is that we are getting a clawback of £10 million of that. Under amendment No. 6 the new regime would apply only to mortgages after 31 March and would virtually wipe out 90 per cent of that.

(Limerick East): For the present year, but we would get it back next year.

We would not.

(Limerick East): But there would be a new regime and the Minister would collect money progressively as the years go on.

We would probably get it back in up to 20 years time, which is the average length of a mortgage.

(Limerick East): The average length of a mortgage is seven years.

I will not argue, but it would be seven years if this amendment were passed before this would come into the regime as proposed in the Finance Bill. In 1974 there were no limits at all on interest reliefs and the Deputy's party were in power when restrictions were imposed. I felt obliged, in relation to nonhouse purchase borrowings in 1982, to restrict the concession allowed there. There is nothing new in that regard. Mortgage interest relief still stands at 90 per cent of what it was before. The Deputies must accept that with the enormous cost of £160 million a year involved here and, bearing in mind that it was not possible to deal with the concessions we would all like in relation to the PAYE sector alone, because of the difficulties in public finances, it is a small amount and its effect has been virtually eliminated before this measure comes into effect. When the majority of people benefitting under this relief are paying tax at 47 per cent, there will be virtually no effect. They will have received this amount back in reduced payments because of the reduction in interest rates. Within five months of the announcement of the budget changes they will have a gain. There is no difficulty in this.

I refer the Deputy to remarks he made in relation to a change we made because the banks involved in house mortgage had a certain concession at a 35 per cent rate of taxation as against 50 per cent. We changed that in this Finance Bill to 45 per cent. At that time banner headlines appeared all over the country suggesting that this would add 4 per cent or 5 per cent for those who had house mortgages from the banks. We are used to such frightening banner headlines in all respects whether in relation to health cutbacks, interest charges, or mortgage interest relief. I prefer to deal with reality.

What happened subsequent to these banner headlines about mortgages? One bank increased the charge by three quarters of a per cent and since then bank interest rates have come down and, in so far as our philosophy in the overall budget is working, that trend will continue. While I accept the concern of Deputies and of mortgage holders at the way interest rates increased over the past 12 months, I recall that before Christmas Deputy Noonan as Minister for Industry and Commerce produced banner headlines to the effect that interest rates would drop by 5 per cent before we had our Christmas dinner over. It took a lot of hard work and tough decisions by this Government to bring interest rates on their slow downward trend.

(Limerick East): We taught you courage.

I prefer to deal with reality. I did not make a statement that interest rates would drop dramatically in the last three months, as did Deputy Noonan, knowing that it could not happen. It took firm action and tough decisions to bring about what has happened so far. Let us hope in the interests of this economy that that trend will continue because, all of that must happen before we can do anything about the biggest tragedy, the biggest cancer that exists in this economy. That is the 246,000 unemployed and the tens of thousands who have emigrated in the last few years, and unfortunately many more will continue to emigrate. Those are the facts. We cannot pick out bits and pieces of an overall programme and say we do not like that. As I said in response to The Workers' Party this morning, we cannot have it all ways. We cannot be against cutbacks and savings and increases in taxes and in the next breath say we should have further reliefs, further concessions, more expenditure. We have borrowed to our limit. We must face those facts. It does not matter who is in the office of the Minister for Finance or any other Government office, that will have to be faced in the foreseeable future. The quicker we can make the control that is now exercised work, the shorter the term will be before we can give some of the reliefs and concessions that we all as public representatives would like to give.

I can deal only with realities. If amendment No. 6 were accepted it would create an undesirable situation if at some time in the future interest relief was to be increased. In those circumstances would the increase apply only to new mortgages? That is the ball game we are getting into. While I accept the intention behind the Deputy's remarks, the changes that have been made in this area have come in for a great deal of criticism from many Deputies from all parties. Bearing in mind the restrictions imposed in other years since 1974 I cannot accept the amendment.

The Minister replying to Deputy Noonan spoke about the difficult financial position which the economy finds itself in. It was interesting to hear him describe the economy as having some financial difficulties which he through his policies intends to rectify. One of the aims is to bring down interest rates. Deputy Noonan in the amendment he has proposed is seeking equity for those people who have already made contracts. The Minister said he had sympathy in that regard but I do not think he had any desire to see relief given to those people.

The assertion that interest increases or decreases give rise to a certain hype in the media did not originate from this party. The destabilisers last September and October certainly were not in our party — though we had one maverick.

A Deputy

The Minister said so.

I will come to what the then Minister, Deputy Noonan, said at that time.

(Limerick East): I have great things to tell you.

It has not really hit this Government yet. I congratulate the Minister on being firm in his resolve and I admire the forcefulness of his realism. He is winning quite a few friends because of his forcefulness but the destabilisers are in the House. A Deputy not too far from me here was kicking up a row every day about democracy, the state of the economy and unemployment but that Deputy herself last September and October created panic in financial circles by forecasting huge deficits and huge overruns. I do not know what are the Minister's forecasts. I do not know whether he is going to have the huge overruns. In the silly season he will have a bite at that cherry.

Just in case the Deputy might be interpreted as was the Deputy he is talking about, I assure him that everything will be all right.

(Limerick East): To use the parlance of the horse racing industry, the Minister's form is very bad.

Those were your figures for revenue taken in your budget by your Minister. The only time expenditure was on target was in 1982.

(Interruptions.)

Minister and Deputy Noonan, let us move away from historical recollections, and get down to the business before us.

If the Minister was a horse he would be eligible to sit only in the Seanad.

The Deputy is not sure where he wants to sit or at what time judging by his antics in the past few weeks.

Let me remind Deputy Carey that this is Report Stage, and he will not have the satisfaction of the Minister's reply because the Minister has spoken already.

(Limerick East): There is amendment No. 7. He can reply then.

He cannot reply to this amendment, we must dispose of this before we come to amendment No. 7.

The Minister has pointed out that he believes there are financial difficulties in this country. Some people — I am not one of them — think that the conversion of Fianna Fáil to financial rectitude is something like the conversion of Saul on the road to Damascus. However, I believe the Minister when he tells me that he is going to stick to this. Because of his confidence in the success of what he is proposing and his attitude he should have a certain compassion on those people who committed themselves to these contracts at high interest rates. It is in the interests of all of us surely that extra pressure does not build up for wage increases. Wage claims will follow the Minister's insistence on taking this 10 per cent slice off the relief on mortgage interest. At the risk of being repetitive, let me say the Minister should consider his position.

I know the Minister cannot reply, but his restriction on mortgage interest relief in this budget is extremely unfortunate in a number of respects. If he had decided to reduce the ceiling on mortgage interest relief by 90 per cent — it is £2,000 or £4,000 depending on whether the mortagee is a single person or a married couple — one could see an element of progression in it. Some people are being subsidised vis-à-vis their tax for very large houses. This reduction to 90 per cent of the £2,000, £4,000 or whatever relief is claimable, will hit very hard those low income families who are on an SDA mortgage from a local authority and who entered into that mortgage in good faith, sealed a contract anytime in the last 20 years and now will have to pay more tax in respect of their mortgage.

Secondly, having embarked on this road, it is possible that in the future it will move to 80 per cent, 70 per cent and be eroded further. Of course, the net effect of all of this is that there is no real saving to the Exchequer — because more people will go on to local authority housing lists to be rehoused. Furthermore, the £12 million the Minister will have saved this year will jam up real problems in the future, of social misery, of people having to live in caravans, living with their in-laws or in expensive private rented accommodation. All of those problems are being stored up for a future administration. For the first time the previous Government had got housing policy in order. Now it is heading into disarray again.

When speaking on amendment No. 7 would the Minister give a commitment that he will not erode the mortgage interest relief further next year. Will he confirm that this is not the thin end of the wedge but rather a once-off measure he is taking this year.

I do not like prolonging debates but I got the impression that if I did not say anything in this debate on the subject of mortgage interest relief somebody might say later that I sat silently while Fine Gael did all the fighting on this issue, that I let the issue go by default.

What about this morning when the Deputy opted out of his responsibilities?

I wanted to make a few things clear in relation to mortgage interest relief. There is an argument — put in the Minister's terms — that it costs the State a lot of money to provide mortgage interest relief. He quantifies the cost, as he puts it, to the State of mortgage interest relief. Viewed from his position — and I do not blame him for this — it does appear to be a cost. In fact it does not constitute a cost at all. What the State has said consistently to people over many years is that payments of mortgage interest are discounted in tax computations. They have never seen it as a cost to the State. They have entered into long term obligations on the basis of an implicit understanding from the State that those obligations will be treated by the State in a particular manner. Those people pay out every halfpenny of the mortgage interest. What they are told is that if they pay that money to a building society or lending institution a proportion of it will not be calculated as part of their income tax liability by the State. It is putting the cart before the horse to describe it as a cost to the State. From the individual mortgage holders' point of view the interest is actually paid out. What the mortgage holder is told is that if he does pay part of his income to a lending institution in these circumstances he will be treated in a certain way taxwise. He does not regard himself as getting a benefit from the State. He regards himself as undertaking a long term commitment with a long term collateral guarantee from the State.

That is why I find this measure adopted by the Minister on this occasion undesirable. This may be a one off step in terms of a 10 per cent reduction in the amount of mortgage interest relief one might receive in this financial year but it is put in such terms — as Deputies Noonan, Yates and Carey pointed out — as to invite speculation as to what that figure will be next year, the year after that and the year after that again.

People who take out mortgages on houses are entering into a long term commitment. For the vast majority of people it is the biggest commitment of their whole lives. They are entitled to have a degree of certainty of continuity from the State as to how they will be treated. My worry — I think it is one shared by everybody in this House, including backbenchers on the Minister's side of the House — is that when one introduces an element of uncertainty into long term arrangements of this kind the net effect is that there will be less of an uptake on mortgages because there will be a question mark in people's minds as to whether they will be able to undertake the kinds of obligations involved and sustain them, especially in circumstances in which employment, wages, and so on are so subject to fluctuations and dangers as in the case now in an economic crisis.

I oppose the Minister's attitude to mortgage interest relief. I appreciate that the Minister can well say that, in a time when there are 250,000 people unemployed, those who have houses, those who benefit to this extent, have a moral obligation to shoulder their portion of the burden. I appreciate all of that. But I must re-echo the sentiments of Deputies Noonan, Yates and Carey, that there are different ways of achieving this. There are more progressive ways to achieve this, which involve differentiating between those who can afford this diminution in their income tax relief from those who cannot. A simple proportionate reduction of 10 per cent, as Deputy Yates said, hits the poorest, the people who have gone out furthest on the limb to try and provide a family home. It will hit the people who have extended themselves as far as they possibly can on the implicit understanding that the State would not cut the limb from under them or shake them off the tree. Those people who have taken the greatest risks, who have most to lose, who have least to sustain them are those who find themselves being treated proportionately in exactly the same way as the best off in society. I regard that as unsatisfactory. Had the Minister wanted to attack mortgage interest relief, had he wanted to create this uncertainty about it, he could have done it in a fairer manner. This way is slightly unfair and arbitrary.

Deputy Carey, with some considerable rhetorical skill, made reference to Deputy Harney's statements last year in relation to the likely out-turn on the budget deficit. The one thing I would ask the Minister to confirm at this stage is this, that in 1986 this House voted approximately £34 million for certain grants for improvements to dwellings. Without any authority from this House, in a manner which was totally unconstitutional, Ministers of the then Government not only trebled that obligation but created hundreds of millions of pounds worth of obligations for their successors to inherit in the most scandalous way.

The Deputy does not have to follow the alleged bad example of Deputy Carey.

All I am saying is that a liability in that financial year of hundreds of millions of pounds was created with no authority from this House.

The Deputy did not say that before the election.

That is what Deputy Harney referred to. She was right about it. Whether it applies this year or is extended into next year — as the Minister has now indicated to the House — it will have to be in order to defray it, whether it was front loaded or back loaded it was created and she was quite correct to draw attention to the scandal involved.

I might remind the House that there is one half hour remaining for this debate. We might trim our mental sails, as it were, and be as brief as possible. Otherwise we will not move much beyond this amendment.

(Limerick East): On a point of information, the first 11 sections virtually were not debated at all because of the antics of the Progressive Democrats yesterday, whereas the rest of the Bill was reasonably debated. We want, if possible, to debate the first 11 sections.

And we want to maintain the high standard of debate to date.

I will not rise to that provocation.

The Minister and other Members on the far side of the House will agree that this is a worthwhile amendment. Anybody who takes the initiative of buying their own home will appreciate the immense importance of being assured of all possible incentives. There are many fees to be paid by any young couple buying a house. There will be architects', auctioneers', solicitors' fees and so on, every one of whom pay VAT on those fees. There is VAT paid on the materials used in the building of the house. Then there is the further imposition of stamp duty on mortgages, memorials and so on, all amounting to a very considerable expenditure on people who had been assured that, at least, they would receive mortgage interest relief. For people on fixed incomes living on very tight budgets who find their resources are very small, this type of allowance is to be encouraged. I am disappointed with the Minister's proposal to reduce this relief by 10 per cent.

I ask the Minister — I know he cannot reply on this amendment — to give an assurance to the House and to the people that there will be no further reductions in mortgage interest relief at any future date. It is now at 90 per cent. Throughout the length and breadth of the country thousands of young people are put to the pin of their collar to pay back their mortgage repayments each month. To some people the income tax relief which they were allowed might be small but not to many people, young and old or where husbands are out of work and the Minister should give an assurance that he will not tamper further with mortgage interest relief and that he will retain it at 90 per cent. People are disappointed with the reduction of 10 per cent but the foot is in the door and many people are afraid the Minister will put the leg in as well. This matter is of immense importance to many people. It is a tremendous thing for people to buy or to build their own homes.

Home improvement grants for many people led to bathrooms and bedrooms being built in houses and water supply being put in. It meant a lot to many couples with large families. As somebody who lives in rural Ireland, I was very happy to see so many people in my constituency and throughout the country who were at long last able to provide proper homes for themselves and their families because of the home improvement grants. They were of tremendous benefit to the people and the housing stock was improved enormously.

(Limerick East): Debating with members of the Progressive Democrats is a bit like dancing the Paul Jones, when the music stops you decide which policy you have your arms around. Last October the PDs were in favour of abolishing all mortgage interest relief on home loans and many other reliefs also. In their tax policy of October 1986 they proposed to abolish the whole lot.

That is completely untrue.

(Limerick East): I am glad they are changing their minds now. I do not need to take lectures on financial rectitude from the Minister. He referred to a number of statements I made and I will deal with them very briefly. In regard to section 33 and how it relates to this matter, provided the banks loaded the effect of what the Minister proposes in this section on to new home loans the figure would be over 3 per cent. If they spread it across their portfolio of loans it would be over 2 per cent but they will not do that. They will spread the amount over their whole area of activity. In this morning's paper there is a table from Allied Irish Banks which shows that there are reductions in every category of lending except in home loans where there is no change, the rate will stay at 12 per cent. We are not getting the full benefits of the reductions we should be getting in the investment sector because the banks are spreading the loss across the sector. The Minister is going diametrically against his own stated policy.

The Minister made many tax concessions in this Bill. There is one in relation to the food industry and I do not know whether it is related to today's announcement but it seems very like sweetheart legislation. I cannot understand why somebody would get a grant of £20 million or £25 million and on top of that get tax credit for that grant. It is reasonable to give tax credits to encourage people to invest but to give a tax credit for investment plus the amount put in by the State is another matter. The private investor gets the tax credit.

Overkill.

(Limerick East): Overkill.

It was there for everybody until last year.

(Limerick East): Why was it removed?

It was there for three and a half years while the Deputy was in office.

(Limerick East): The financial services industry, the trading houses and so on are all included for concessions and we are all supposed to agree with those concessions. The burden falls to the PAYE sector all the time. When the Minister was making up his figures he was £10 million short so he decided to take 10 per cent off mortgage interest relief and that amounts to £10 million. I can see the thinking behind that because we have gone through it so many times. The Minister came to the point where he could not get agreement for the cuts that he wanted to bring the deficit to 6.9 per cent and so he went for the soft option and the softest possible target, the PAYE sector, and hit them again by removing 10 per cent of the mortgage interest relief. That is the thin end of the wedge. That relief is on the sliding slope and it will eventually disappear.

We know what happened with interest on loans previously. In the 1982 budget the Minister abolished relief on interest on borrowings other than for houses. Five years later the same Minister is now reducing the mortgage interest relief on house loans. If you borrowed previously to buy a car, to send your children to college or because you were in hospital you could claim tax relief against that interest but the Minister abolished that and now he is back with the same philosophy and this time it is the mortgage interest relief that is being reduced.

If the Minister came into the House and advocated massive tax reform, a change in the tax bands and a reduction of rates — as the Commission on Tax Reform said, we have to do something about all the reliefs if we are to have lower rates — we could debate it but we might not agree with it. We would say there was a reasonable approach to tax reform. The Minister is ensuring that neither himself nor his successors will have any scope for tax reform because he is systematically taking away the reliefs that exist and clawing them into the maw of the Exchequer. We will be left with reliefs gone and rates high and only the PAYE payers paying tax. I am very disappointed with this. I am going to press the amendment to a vote because if I leave it any longer I may not be able to get a vote on this issue.

I do not wish——

Sorry, Deputy Noonan has concluded and that is the position on Report Stage. Those are the orders we must follow.

When Deputy Noonan said that we were still discussing the first 11 sections I decided it was time to get in on the debate.

The Deputy heard the announcement this morning.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 73.

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Boland, John.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Colley, Anne.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gibbons, Martin Patrick.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Keating, Michael.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kennedy, Geraldine.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Malley, Pat.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Abbott, Henry.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matthew.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary T.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • O'Dea, William Gerard.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermott.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm Michael.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Mooney Mary,
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies O'Brien and Flanagan; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Browne.
Amendment declared lost.

(Limerick East): We are not pressing amendment No. 7. We have discussed it already.

Amendment No. 7 not moved.

Amendment No. 15 is consequential on amendment No. 8 and they may be discussed together.

(Limerick East): I move amendment No. 8:

In page 17, between lines 11 and 12, to insert the following:

"(c) payment to specified persons to whom a certificate of authorisation has been issued under section 19* of this Act;".

This amendment relates to the withholding tax. I want to exclude from this provision anybody who has his tax affairs in order. I understand it is the intention of the Minister to put certain professions on a current basis in the paying of income tax and this, in association with the new section I have drafted modelled on the treatment of certain sectors in the building industry, allows the Revenue Commissioners to issue certificates of authorisation exempting people who are fully up-to-date in their tax affairs from the withholding tax.

The Minister should accept this amendment. He has made certain changes already but if his intent is to put certain professionals on a current basis for the payment of their tax he can make this exclusion quite easily. The exclusion is for people who are fully paid up. If his intent is something else he should inform the House what it is.

I agree with the amendments put forward by Deputy Noonan. They correspond roughly with the sense behind amendment No. 12 in my name which will not be reached today. I ask the Minister at some stage in the future to think of bringing in an amendment along these lines. One or other of the amendments in Deputy Noonan's name or in mine contains a reasonable method of ensuring that the most unjust aspect of this tax will be mitigated, not as a matter of discretion but of right, in the case of certian taxpayers. It means that those who are conscientious in keeping up with their tax obligations will be dealt with on the same basis as other sectors and will not be penalised by having a withholding tax on their turnover, as well, possibly, as being taxed under PAYE on their remuneration.

As far as the withholding tax is concerned, I have done what I can and the Bill is amended accordingly. I am not prepared to make any further concessions. In the final stages of this debate, it is regrettable that we lost four valuable hours because of the antics of Deputy O'Malley and his party——

The Minister brought in the guillotine motion.

——yesterday in particular when they deliberately filibustered a very minor amendment——

——so that they would not reach the important amendment they had down on advance corporation tax, which, coming from the party of financial rectitude, a party founded for that purpose, would have had a potential cost in lost revenue of £950 million to the Exchequer. It is no wonder they filibustered yesterday and they did not want it discussed today because they did not have the courage to put it down again. That is the kind of dishonesty we have seen from Deputy McDowell and Deputy O'Malley during this debate.

I thank Deputy Noonan and other Deputies for their co-operation in getting this Bill through. I have done what I can with the withholding tax but I cannot accept this amendment.

(Limerick East): Do I have time to reply since I put down the amendment?

Be very brief because there is a time limit.

(Limerick East): I am sorry we did not have time to debate this amendment fully.

Why did the Deputy vote for the guillotine motion?

(Limerick East): If the Deputy were in this House longer he would know that previous Finance Bills, with over 120 sections, never got beyond section 8 or 9. We went through the whole Bill this time in spite of the Progressive Democrats, and we would have done it thoroughly if they had co-operated.

As we did this morning without them.

(Interruptions.)

(Limerick East): I understand there will be a vote now. I am voting in opposition because the Minister is not accepting my amendment on the withholding tax.

As it is now 5 o'clock I am required to put the following question in accordance with the resolution of the House of 16 June: "That the amendments set down by the Minister for Finance to the Bill on Report and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, Fourth Stage is hereby completed, and the Bill is hereby passed."

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá 73; Níl, 66.

  • Abbott, Henry.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matthew.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermott.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm Michael.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Mooney Mary.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary T.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William Gerard.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.

Níl

  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Boland, John.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Colley, Anne.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cooney, Patrick Mark.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Cullen, Martin.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Fitzpatrick, Tom.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gibbons, Martin Patrick.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hussey, Gemma.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kennedy, Geraldine.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McDowell, Michael.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Malley, Pat.
  • O'Sullivan Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeline.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Browne; Níl, Deputies O'Brien and Flanagan. Question declared carried.
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