asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he will make a statement on the recent discussions which took place with representatives of the Government of the United Kingdom concerning the Anglo-Irish Agreement, indicating what matters were discussed and what decisions were taken.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Anglo-Irish Agreement.
5.
The Deputy will be aware that I had two meetings with my co-chairman in the run-up to the recent meeting of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Conference on 21 October. These meetings, which took place on 15 September and 17 October respectively, were part of the preparations for the conference and addressed issues on its agenda. The joint statement issued after the conference has been laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and gives details of the main issues discussed on that occasion.
Would the Minister say whether any agreement was reached on any of the issues; in particular, did discussions take place on the matter of extradition, the matter of the Diplock courts, the matter of fair employment and the matter of the Anglo-Irish parliamentary tier? Were any of these matters discussed? Was any agreement reached?
All of these matters were discussed and are the subject matter of a further detailed series of replies on the actual outcome of the conference itself and various other questions tabled to me. The Deputy's questions were addressed to pre-conference meetings, of which two were held with the Northern Ireland Secretary of State and myself. I gave details of them to the Deputy just now. If the Deputy will have patience there is a whole series of questions later on this issue.
The question I asked was: what matters were discussed and what decisions were taken. Could I ask the Minister to clarify for the House what decisions, if any, were taken. If none was taken then the Minister should say so.
There is a very full joint statement which is in the Library, available to the Deputy and the House, setting out in detail what was discussed at the Anglo-Irish Conference. There are questions later in relation to that. What the Deputy is talking about are preliminary meetings at which all of these matters were raised. In particular we had a very positive outcome on one aspect, that is, the fair employment legislation which is now being advanced rapidly by the British Government, designed to introduce fair employment legislation in regard to equality of opportunity and fair employment between Unionists and Nationalists, Catholics and Protestants, a system that will have teeth in it which the present system does not have and which will extend such fair employment practices across the board to semi-State agencies as well as to the civil service, local authorities and the private sector. All of that occupies a higher place on the agenda than it used. The British Government will be introducing legislation in Westminister next year along those lines. I mention that as one example of a very practical conclusion.
6.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if in his discussions with the co-chairman of the Anglo-Irish Conference he has established when the new North of Ireland guideline on fair employment will be backed up by legislation.
As the Deputy is aware I have repeatedly called for the early introduction of new and effective legislation to tackle the problem of religious discrimination in employment in Northern Ireland. My co-chairman of the conference, and the British authorities generally, are well aware of the Government's concern on this issue. We have been assured that it is their intention to proceed with the drafting of legislation as quickly as possible. The Deputy can be certain that I will continue to convey actively and forcefully to the British authorities the compelling need for the introduction of such legislation at the earliest possible date.
I have already referred to that aspect in reply to Deputy Taylor.
The Minister will appreciate that all sides of the House are very glad to see these new guidelines introduced which, I might say, were first welcomed by me last September when they were first spoken of. Could the Minister tell us what is the Government's position now given the fact that he intends to see these backed up by legislation regarding what are known as the MacBride principles?
First, I should like to see fair employment practices and principles, along with legislation, that will be able to monitor this situation properly with attendant necessary resources that will render the MacBride principles, as such, as it were, redundant in that they will subsume the admirable principles that are incorporated in the MacBride series of principles. If we bring in effective legislation, which is what we really want, we can expedite very desirable improvements in this area, rendering unnecessary any further — what might be termed — confrontation and controversy in this area. This will be possible provided the proper legislation is introduced and the proper resources made available to ensure that it operates properly. I share the Deputy's sentiments in that respect.
Is the Minister aware that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is quoted at a press conference after the meeting in July as saying that the present Minister himself said that the new guidelines on fair employment superseded the MacBride principles. Would the Minister agree that this is in direct contradiction of an interview given last month by the Taoiseach to the magazine Irish/America?
On this issue — and let us not cloud it — I have made our position very clear.
(Interruptions.)
(Dún Laoghaire): There is one person only who can do that and that is the Minister himself.
I believe very positively that the introduction of such legislation, when implemented and with appropriate and proper resources, in effect will supersede the need for any such principles because it will incorporate the very principles being advocated in the United States at present and called the MacBride principles. I have used the verb "subsume" here. If the legislation is sufficiently effective it will subsume the MacBride principles. That should be our objective and aspiration. I hope I have made myself quite clear on this matter.
Has the Minister informed the Taoiseach of this because the Taoiseach said in that interview that Irish diplomats in America had no such instructions?
As far as we are concerned we have no objection in principle to what is being advocated in what are called the MacBride principles.
The Minister knows that there is more to it than that.
What we are seeking to do is make them effective on the ground, through the adoption and implementation of really enforceable legislation in this whole area so as to remove the dastardly imbalance existing at present of 2:1 against Catholics in the Six Counties area. We want to remove that imbalance and we can do so by way of legislation seen to be operative on the ground.
This cannot go on interminably. A number of Deputies are offering.
I have one last supplementary. Does the Minister not agree that an extremely bad impression has been given in America by the Taoiseach preaching one gospel on the MacBride principles or John Hume preaching another?
If the Deputy examines this matter he will see that the Taoiseach, John Hume and I are all saying the same thing.
(Interruptions.)
Let us pursue the question. Deputy Ruairí Quinn.
The Minister has not confused me.
Let us pursue the question in an orderly fashion. I want to hear Deputy Quinn and I am going on to the next question after that. Do not waste the time of the House in laughter.
If I can come down from the clouds which have been so effectively put into this Chamber by the replies of the Minister for Foreign Affairs——
I thank the Deputy. That is a compliment.
And intended to be so. Is he now disavowing what he said when the voluntary guidelines were published by the British authorities, that at that time those voluntary guidelines — which are no more than voluntary guidelines — did not then and do not now supersede the MacBride principles? Is that what he is saying?
When the voluntary guidelines were published I welcomed them and Deputy Barry welcomed them as well. We welcome the publication of voluntary guidelines, but they go only so far. They are only a limited statement of intent, as it were.
Did the Minister say they succeeded?
I did not. At all stages I welcomed the publication of the set of voluntary guidelines as an indication or statement of intent and good in so far as they went, but they are obviously inadequate in that they lack any legislative or enforcement aspects. Unless we get legislative enforcement and, above all, provision of resources aspects covered in positive legislation then we cannot be happy about the situation which exists in Northern Ireland. I am seeking to get the British Government to put legislation of that kind high on their agenda.