asked the Minister for Education if she will make arrangements for supervision of children in schools where the walking principal has to return to the classroom thereby leaving no person to look after sick or injured children.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - School Supervision.
5.
In accordance with the Rules for National Schools, principal teachers, whether teaching or otherwise, are responsible, under the overall authority of the school management, for the general organisation of schools, including the supervision of pupils.
It should be borne in mind that schools with full time walking principals comprise 30 per cent of the total and that in 70 per cent of schools the principal is also a teaching principal.
This question was put in before the last dizzying change in primary education policy. Will the Minister say if from 1 January the arrangements concerning administrative principals will remain the same as they have been up to the issue of Circular 20/87 and that there will be no change next year?
Circular 20/87 did not require non-teaching principals to become teaching principals. It is not a directive. It was very much left to the principal and his arrangements in the school. The arrangements as scheduled under Circular 20/87 do not come into effect until the middle of 1988.
Can I get some clarification on this matter? As far as I am concerned this question is central to Circular 20/87. All through this debate in this House I have sought to get clarification and make sure that the facts are told correctly. Despite my efforts there is still confusion. While the Minister might say that Circular 20/87 did not specifically give instructions to walking principals that they had to go back teaching, the obvious thing was going to be that walking principals would have to go back teaching or otherwise posts could be suppressed. That is the reality, and classes will obviously grow.
An Leas-Cheann Comhiarle
A quesiton, Deputy.
As we are now in a position to ask about Circular 20/87 will the Minister verify or otherwise statements being made by Fianna Fáil backbenchers that the circular is now withdrawn?
As the Deputy knows, it would not be appropriate to discuss the circular.
It relates directly.
With respect, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, it is in relation to walking principals.
On a point of information——
Deputy Spring——
On a point of information——
I am addressing Deputy Spring. I will attend to Deputy Hussey in a moment. Deputy Spring, what I have indicated to the House is that the Standing Orders governing Question Time require that questions are put and are answered as they are put. If Deputy Spring says to me he is going to ask a question, he is entitled to do so. If he indicates that, arising out of that, he wants to discuss a matter which he knows could take up all the time of Question Time on a particular circular, he will appreciate I would have to indicate that, on this question, we could not allow a discussion on that particular circular. That is the point I make. He is entitled to ask any questions he wishes appropriate to the question.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I always obey your orders and I find you have a degree of clarity which I welcome in relation to directions from the Chair. However, I wish that the truth in this matter be established. I have no opportunity other than this occasion to do so. I would just inform you, Sir, that in a paper published in the south-west of this country today Deputy Denis Foley is reported as being satisfied that the controversial circular which ordered an increase in the pupil-teacher ratio in primary schools has been withdrawn.
What?
Withdrawn. As this is an opportunity — as the Minister is present in the House — I want her now either to refute or substantiate that statement.
That is another question and there are——
That is not another question.
There are other questions on the Order Paper under which I may answer that.
That is not another question.
If Deputy Spring had put his question without appearing to base it on something which is not provided for here, then his question would have been in order but he will appreciate that, in the manner in which he put it, he was not in order.
I put the question to the Minister——
That is Question No. 47.
——and I want a reply from the Minister, not the Minister of State.
As I have said, the question will be answered under the questions nominated for priority which will be answered. I do understand that if priority——
As to Priority Questions, I am fully conversant with the ordering of business in this House. I will not have an opportunity to put my question in priority time.
Why?
I will not have under the rules of this House——
Because the Deputy is not the spokesperson.
That is for spokespersons only. On that basis I want the answer now.
Well, on that basis the Deputy cannot have it because Priority Question have priority.
I am putting the question now because the Minister prefers to give out statements on unstamped, unfranked paper to her own Deputies and has not got the courage to come into this House and make the statement——
I am going to make a statement to the——
I am asking the Minister to make it now.
I am not going to answer the Deputy.
Deputy Spring will appreciate that if there is a specific Priority Question tabled, which there is——
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I have taken Priority Questions and I have answered many questions in the House in the course of Question Time.
But the Deputy would not wish to pre-empt what will be treated under that question.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, you must surely appreciate that after 3.30 p.m. I will not have an opportunity of seeking what, as a public representative, I am entitled to endeavour to seek.
Hear, hear.
It is a very simple question; just give us the answer, "yes" or "no".
It is not good enough that people down the country are telling one story and people in Dublin another. We have an opportunity to have it clarified. It can be done simply; it is a matter of "yes" or "no". Is Circular 20/87 withdrawn or not?
I will be answering Question No. 47 which is one nominated for priority.
Yes, and I think we have to accept that.
On many occasions in this House I think I was reasonably helpful to the Minister when she was asking questions in the course of Question Time.
I never asked the Deputy one, as Minister——
The Minister did ask supplementaries.
No, never.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, it is a very simple matter. Is the statement made by a Fianna Fáil backbencher true or false?
The Deputy will appreciate he is not in order.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I have no other opportunity——
Well, the lack of opportunity or otherwise afforded the Deputy does not make what he is saying appropriate to a supplementary question.
I have to insist, Sir.
No, the Deputy may not insist on being out of order.
I am going to ask the Minister again.
No, the Deputy cannot insist. He has been out of order and I think he knows it.
A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, maybe I have to be out of order. I consider this matter to be very important. It is not good enough that there are two stories being told, one coming from the Department on unidentifiable notepaper — that is not the way to conduct business in this State——
Deputy Spring, please bear with me.
If the Minister wishes to make statements — as she and they always wanted to do when in Opposition — then this House has some rights——
Will Deputy Spring please resume his seat.
No, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I want an answer——
Deputy Spring, you should resume your seat.
I want an answer to this very basic, fundamentally important question.
Deputy Spring will resume his seat and I will give him an answer. But he must resume his seat.
I wish to have an answer to this question. I do not want to interrupt the business of this House but——
The Deputy will appreciate he is out of order and I would ask him to resume his seat.
Why did not the Labour Party put down a question for priority?
The answer to Deputy Doyle is that the Labour Party were working on it and not jumping on other people's work in order to take credit for it.
Deputies
Oh, oh.
(Interruptions.)
The Labour Party have the facility to put down questions for priority.
The Deputy voted for the Education Estimate that set the whole thing up.
(Interruptions.)
Will Deputy Spring at least listen to me for a moment? I am quite sure that all of those good people who are interested in educational matters in this country will appreciate the delicate manner in which their case is being pursued. Deputy Spring has indicated that it is his intention to be out of order. Accordingly, he leaves me with no option but to send for the Ceann Comhairle.
I am advised by the previous occupant of the Chair that Deputy Dick Spring has refused to obey his ruling. The Deputy will please obey the ruling of the Chair.
A Cheann Comhairle, I must seek your assistance, as you have deemed this matter to be of sufficient importance for you to come into the Chamber. I am dealing with a supplementary question to Question No. 5 in the name of Deputy Nealon, the contents of which are well within——
In a situation like this the Chair hears only the previous occupant. I understand the Deputy refused to obey the Chair. He must now obey the Chair and resume his seat.
I will not resume my seat until I get an answer to what is a very important question.
I will call on the Deputy to resume his seat or leave the House.
Not until I have established the facts.
The Deputy has persistently disobeyed the ruling of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and the Ceann Comhairle.
I am trying to establish the facts.
I must now ask that the motion be moved——
On a point of order——
The Chair is on his feet, Deputy, sit down.
On a point of order——
Sit down, Deputy. The Chair is ruling.
On a point of order——
Sit down, Deputy Mitchell.
I want to raise a point of order.
You may not raise a point of order when the Chair is ruling, you should know that.
I had hoped the Chair would not have to rule.
If the Deputy persists I will deal with him also.
I am trying to raise a point of order and that is surely not being disorderly.
It is completely disorderly to disrupt the Chair when ruling on a very important matter.
What I have to say is in connection with that ruling.
I will deal with the Deputy later.
The course of action you are proposing in relation to the question I have asked is unnecessary.
Deputy Spring has persistently refused to obey the Chair. He will now leave the House.
Yes, I will leave the House.
Deputy Spring withdrew from the Chamber.
Deputy Jim Mitchell, it was most disorderly of you to disrupt the Chair in dealing with an important matter of this kind.
May I raise a point of order?
I resent it very much. You may not.
I wish to raise——
Resume your seat or leave the House, Deputy.
I just wanted to raise a point of order.
In respect of the last matter.
In respect of a point of order.
You said it was in connection with the ruling.
I wish to raise a point of order.
You may not raise it now.
I wish to raise a point of order.
No. You continually wished to raise a point of order in connection with the previous matter.
Under what Standing Orders are you not allowing me to raise a point of order?
Because you have raised it at a time when I was ruling on a very important matter and it is most audacious of you to do so.
May I make a suggestion on a point of order? I was trying to be helpful to the Chair——
You are not being helpful to the Chair when he is ruling on a very important matter. The Deputy, as a previous Minister and longstanding Member of this House, should have known so.
Perhaps, Sir, you will allow me make a point of order——
No. Question No, 6, please, an Teachta Michael D. Higgins.
A Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order——
I have called the next question.
I wish to make a point of order.
I have called the next question.
I wish to make a point of order.
No, I am not——
On what grounds?
You have been most unruly and disruptive to the Chair. I must ask Deputy Mitchell to leave the House.
On what basis?
Leave the House, Deputy Mitchell.
I will go under severe protest.
Leave the House. You were being most disruptive to the Chair when he was ruling on a very important matter.
I do not think anyone else will agree with that.
Leave the House or else——
Deputy Mitchell withdrew from the chamber.