Vol. 376 No. 5
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if the Government have protested to the Libyan authorities for attempting to supply the arms cache found on the Eksund to the Provisional IRA; and if the Government intend to break off diplomatic relations with that country.
15.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he will condemn Colonel Gadaffi's professed support for the Provisional IRA; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
25.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he intends to break off diplomatic relations with Libya.
27.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if the Leader of the Seanad was expressing the Government's views about their relationship with Libya when he spoke in the Seanad on Wednesday, 18 November 1987.
41.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs the reason the Government have failed to break off diplomatic relations with Libya in recent weeks.
46.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if he raised the involvement of Libya in the shipment of arms and explosives to the IRA at EPC level.
50.
asked the Minister for Foreign Affairs if, in the light of the Government's assessment of the origins at the Eksund arms shipment, he has reached a decision regarding the termination of diplomatic relations with Libya.
With you permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 15, 25, 27, 41, priority question No. 46 and written question No. 50 together.
On 7 November, on the instructions of the Government, the Irish Ambassador in Rome, who is also accredited to Libya travelled to Tripoli to seek an urgent meeting at a high level with the Libyan authorities. In the course of his visit the Ambassador on the Government's instructions made clear the unequivocal view of the Government that any support moral or material for the Provisional IRA from any source is unacceptable.
The Ambassador impressed on the Libyan authorities the widespread public concern which has arisen as a result of the threat posed to the peace and security of the Irish State by the apparent attempt to import into the State for use by the IRA a vast and sophisticated arsenal of weapons.
The Ambassador informed the Libyan authorities that in the light of recent events the Government would not be proceeding with a proposed trade visit to Libya. Arrangements had been in hand with a view to holding this visit in the period 15-17 November. As Deputies will be aware, I availed of the opportunity when addresing the Seanad on 25 November to set out the position of the Government on this matter.
On 23 November in the course of the most recent meeting of the Foreign Ministers of the Twelve in the European Political Co-operation context, I proposed that the Twelve consider as a matter of urgency how best the Twelve can coordinate efforts to prevent a recurrence of the type of operation engaged in by the Eksund and its crew. Active consideration of this matter has already commenced in the appropriate frameworks. The Government are continuing to monitor closely developments in this case. The Garda and the French security forces remain in close contact in order to ensure that all relevant information is made available to the Government as the investigation develops. At the appropriate time when the full facts are available to them the Government will, in the light of such information, carefully assess what further action may be required.
My overriding concern is to assess at all stages what are the most effective means of ensuring that neither Libya nor any other country offers support of any kind, moral, political or material to subversive elements in this country. The course of action I will adopt will be decided on that basis.
Would the Minister agree that the actions he has outlined which his Government have taken, have been taken on at least two previous occasions to no effect in that what was verbal and moral support by the Libyan Government for the IRA has apparently now been translated into much more dangerous support such as that in the Eksund affair? Does the Minister not consider that it is now time to break off diplomatic relations with the Libyan Government?
We await the full facts which will come out as a result of the investigation being pursued by the French security forces, in which we are co-operating. Pending the availability of all the facts I would prefer to leave over an assessment of what our next step should be.
There seems to be a contradiction in the Minister's reply. Why did we protest to the Libyan authorities on 7 November if we were still not sure whether the Eksund arms shipment came from Libya? If the shipment did come from Libya why do we not break off diplomatic relations?
It should be evident to the Deputy that there is a prima facie reason for serious suspicion in regard to the origin of those arms but at the same time——
——the House will appreciate that it is important to have all the facts available before breaking off diplomatic relations. Only one of our Community partners has taken that step, that is, the UK. All of our other Community partners maintain diplomatic relations with Libya——
Their states are not threatened by the IRA.
All of these states have very vigorous trading relations with Libya.
I am calling first——
The Minister is being naive if that is what he thinks.
I am calling first the Deputies whose names are appended to these questions. I am calling Deputy Geraldine Kennedy and then Deputy Austin Deasy.
Why have the Government decided not to break off diplomatic relations with Libya by this time? Are the Government not sure that the arms came from Libya?
When the full facts are available, in the light of those facts the Government will carefully assess the situation. Our overriding consideration will be to ensure that this sort of arms carrying will cease. We will take that course of action when we get all the information. The matter is being very fully investigated at the moment. I am satisfied as to the course of the investigation by the French security forces and I am satisfied that our security forces are co-operating with them.
Surely the facts are known. Have the French authorities confirmed that the arms on the Eksund originated in Libya?
There is no confirmation and there will be no confirmation until the final determination of the investigation. We have taken certain action with regard to a trade visit. We will consider whether or not we will suspend diplomatic relations when we have the full facts.
I simply asked if the French authorities have confirmed that the arms originated in Libya.
None of the authorities involved is in a position to finally communicate a matter of that kind until the investigation is finalised.
Will the Minister agree that the Government know from domestic and international security forces that two cargoes, at least, of weapons originating in Libya have arrived in Ireland, that money support from Libya has reached Ireland and has been distributed to the IRA and that offers of training in subversive techniques have been made to the IRA? In the light of that positively known information and in the light of the knowledge that a Libyan agent or agents operated here providing financial assistance to the IRA, will the Minister agree that it is appalling and inexcusable that the Government have merely sent the Irish Ambassador in Rome to express our view that this is unacceptable? Does the Minister not agree that in the light of the established facts known to this Government and to the previous Government, there is no reason——
We are having a long series of questions tantamount to a speech.
——why diplomatic relations should not be broken off, and that any other apologia——
I would dissuade the Deputy from making a speech.
I would respect the information furnished to me by the security authorities concerned as being of far greater importance than——
Deputy Desmond asked a series of questions. The Deputy ought to have the good grace to hear the Minister's reply.
He does not show that very often in this House. My over-riding concern is to assess at all stages what are the most effective means of ensuring that neither Libya nor any other country offers support of any kind, moral, political or material to subversive elements in this country. The course of action I will adopt will be decided on that basis. All of our Community partners have voluntarily come to me at recent meetings within the Community to congratulate this country on its approach to subversion here. That ranges from London through all the mainland European countries. They fully appreciate the effectiveness of our security action on the ground. They fully respect the operational effectiveness of our security forces. They fully respect the prompt action that was taken by the French security forces who were co-operating with our security forces——
That is codology.
——to ascertain the real facts of this matter.
That is codology if I may borrow the phrase from the British Ambassador.
I want to assure Deputies that my peers within the European Community, my fellow colleague foreign secretaries, have come individually and collectively to say just what I have said to the House. They fully appreciate and respect and regard what we are doing with admiration and that has come from London as well as from every other capital within the Community.
The Minister is not serious.
It is outrageous that people in this House do not seem to appreciate the very serious considerations within this State, and they are members of the main parliamentary body within this State. They appear not to recognise or appreciate this very delicate matter——
It is not delicate.
——which must be handled in a proper way with full information available as a result of full and proper security investigations.
A Cheann Comhairle, I do not wish this question to be considered as over clever. I mean that quite sincerely. In view of the stated friendship expressed by the leader of the Libyan people with the Taoiseach, does the Minister not consider that it is now time that the Taoiseach contacted this person directly and said we do not want arms, moral support or any other type of support for the Provisional IRA? It is not necessary for anybody in this House to take a lecture on the battle against subversion because we have all been engaged in it for a long number of years. We do not need to take lectures on that. We do not want any outside forces supporting an organisation one of whose objectives is to bring down this State and this Government. Is it not time that the Taoiseach approached Colonel Gadaffi, either publicly or privately, and conveyed that to him?
Hear, hear.
The Irish Ambassador in going to Libya went there on behalf of the Taoiseach and the Irish Government and made the point fully, that the Irish Government were gravely disturbed by the transportation of the munitions on the Eksund. For that reason we decided not to proceed with a trade delegation which was due to go there within a matter of days.
A Cheann Comhairle——
I have allowed a lot of latitude on this question and I want to bring it to finality now.
A Cheann Comhairle, I draw your attention to the fact that there are seven questions involved, one of which is a priority question in my name. Would the Minister not agree that sending the Irish Ambassador — and I regret this very much — proved to be a waste of time because, even since the Eksund find, the Libyan leader again expressed his support, as late as last Friday week, for the IRA? It is time something much more than sending the Ambassador was done.
The security of the country is at stake.
Arising out of the Minister's original reply——
Not a word from the Taoiseach.
I am speaking here for him.
You are not his friend.
I want to dissuade Deputies from the notion that they may debate this matter now. This is not the time to debate it. I will hear Deputy Barry on a supplementary, and a final supplementary from Deputy Kennedy.
First of all, before I ask two supplementaries arising out of the Minister's reply I want to draw the attention of the Chair to the fact that the Minister has not answered Question No. 27. Can the Minister tell me whether the decision taken by the previous Government in relation to Libyan students coming to Ireland is still in force? Can he tell me whether the visit to Libya by the trade delegation which was due to take place was cancelled or postponed?
It was postponed.
Why was it not cancelled?
It was cancelled, in effect. The only arrangement that was made in relation to the trade delegation is no longer an arrangement. That arrangement has been cancelled. That is obvious.
It is not postponed to another time?
No.
What about my second supplementary question about the students?
That is a separate question, Deputy.
But it is a very important question.
It has not been tabled.
The Minister has listed a number of things which the Government have done. Was one of those things to cancel the embargo the previous Government put on students coming here?
Was that question raised before?
It is a question arising out of Minister's original reply.
It is a separate question, Deputy.
A Cheann Comhairle, with the greatest respect it is not. The Minister listed a number of actions taken by the previous Government and this Government with regard to Libya. I want to know if one of those actions was to cancel the prohibition the previous Government had placed on Libyan students coming here.
If the Deputy wants to be precise, it is worthy of a separate question.
There are no Libyan students coming in.
Is the embargo still in force?
Yes.
The post graduate activities have been brought to an end.
A Cheann Comhairle, it is noteworthy on this issue that the Taoiseach has refused——
A question, Deputy.
——to condemn Colonel Gadaffi's professed support for the Provisional IRA in this House, even though the question was not ruled out of order. The question was transferred to the Minister. I would like to ask the Miniser: is he satisfied, as he said earlier, that there is a prima facie case that the arms came from Libya? If he is, surely now is the time to break off diplomatic relations. The Government decided last week to extradite people from this country for less.
We are having repetition now.
That is the strangest analogy I have heard in a long while, with all due respect. I made it quite plain in my original reply that we informed the Libyan authorities fully as to the public concern that exists and our concern in regard to the Eksund shipment which, in our view, posed a threat to the peace and security of the State. The Government, through the Ambassador, impressed that on the Libyan authorities. This Government are a Government of collective responsibility. In Tripoli the Irish Ambassador speaking in that manner to the Libyan authorities was speaking for the Taoiseach, for me, and for every member of our collective Government.
Would the Minister convey that to the Fianna Fáil Leader in the Seanad, as he appears to be unaware of that fact?
