Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Dec 1987

Vol. 376 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Irish Emigrants in the United States: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That Dáil Éireann conscious of the plight of the Irish out of status emigrants in the United States, asks that the Government uses all its resources to:—

(i) get support in the United States Houses of Congress for the legislative initiatives to change their status;

(ii) establish as a matter of urgency support and advice centres in New York, Boston, Chicago, Philadelphia and San Francisco; and

(iii) supply support for Irish emigrants in the United States similar to that supplied by the Department of Labour to Irish emigrants in the United Kingdom.

—(Mr. Deenihan.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Briscoe is in possession and has 28 minutes remaining.

Mr. Briscoe

As the Minister for Foreign Affairs said last evening, we on this side of the House also welcome an opportunity to discuss this motion which, as he said, is opportune.

All Members of this House are concerned about the plight of Irish immigrants in the United States who have no legal status and we understand their fears. Fine Gael speakers on the motion last evening referred to the Fianna Fáil manifesto and our party's commitment to giving priority to the status of Irish illegal immigrants in the United States. That matter formed a major plank in our overall policy. As the House is well aware, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs have been very active in the United States regarding the plight of Irish immigrants. As the Minister said last evening, Congressman Brian Donnelly and Senator Ted Kennedy have been more than helpful as well as other Members of the American Congress in understanding our position.

Since the March visit of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs to Washington there has been close contact maintained with Irish-American politicians on the question of reforming the existing law on immigration. As the House will be aware, a Bill was co-sponsored recently by Congressman Brian Donnelly and Senator Kennedy. The committee of which Senator Kennedy is chairman had its first hearing before the Immigration Sub-Committee of the American Senate Judiciary Committee on 23 October last. I understand that a further hearing of this committee will be held in the near future. Furthermore, I understand that the kernel of the Bill is to provide for an extra 50,000 visas annually which are to be made available to citizens of countries who were disadvantaged under earlier legislation, that is under the 1965 Act. It is my understanding that applicants will be chosen on a points system which is somewhat biased in favour of English-speaking, skilled immigrants. It is our belief that this will result in an additional 9,000 visas annually being granted to this country, not for one year or two years but on a permanent basis. This proposal is very much to be welcomed.

While accepting the Fine Gael motion the Government argue that a certain portion of it should not necessarily be pushed, that is, that portion which calls for the establishment of other centres. We believe we have adequate facilities in our Consulate Generals' offices throughout the United States. We have made these offices available, as centres, to all interested parties over there which, we believe, offsets any need to establish new offices. People commented on the position in Philadelphia. I might remind the House that Philadelphia is one hour's travelling time from New York which, by American standards, is not very much, and will be covered by the New York Consulate.

In relation to the advisory and welfare services I should say that this matter is being tackled at home by way of dissemination of information about living and working conditions in the United States. This is being done through the National Manpower Service. The thrust of the advice of the National Manpower Service is to discourage people who are inadequately prepared from emigrating in the first place. The National Manpower Service lay particular stress on the necessity to have a proper United States visa. Most Irish people who go to the United States are well aware that they should have a proper visa.

Following visits to the United States in August and September the Minister for Foreign Affairs has had advisory and welfare committees established based at our Consulate Generals' offices. These committees consist of representatives of the main groups involved in the illegal immigration issue, the Ancient Order of Hibernians, the Catholic Charities and the Irish Immigration Reform Movement, the latter — as the House will be aware, being a body formed exclusively by Irish illegals in the United States. The committee have met several times, exchanged views on the position and are examining practical steps which might be taken to help our citizens in the United States. In addition, the Minister for Foreign Affairs has appointed a special liaison officer attached to the Consulate General in New York who is available not only to interested groups but to individual Irish citizens. I understand that the opening hours of that consulate have been extended to allow for greater access on the part of those people who cannot contact them during normal working hours.

Current United States legislation provides for an amnesty for illegal immigrants who entered the United States prior to 1982. There have been many calls for an extension of that amnesty date which, of course, would benefit those Irish citizens who emigrated since 1982. However, given the difficulties surrounding the passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, the advice from all sides — that is the United States administration, the Congress and from our Embassy there — is that we should not complicate matters, that we could complicate the Congressional discussions and render our objectives more difficult of achievement if we try to push this aspect too hard. We must be advised by them because, as this House is aware, there is tremendous goodwill towards us in this country, way beyond our size and population. I understand the anxiety of the American Congress because, in fairness, we must remember there are other ethnic minorities from other western European countries who are very anxious to take up residence in the United States.

The Irish Immigration Reform Movement, as I have said, were established earlier this year by young Irish illegal immigrants, initially in the New York area. Since then they have set up branches in Boston, Chicago and San Francisco. They drew up a list of demands in July last which was circulated to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs. These were mainly as follows: a statement of public support for the IIRM on the part of the Government, the establishment of an Irish centre in Manhattan manned by IIRM staff to provide welfare and advisory services to new Irish immigrants; the provision of 20,000 dollars towards the cost of a hot line; total liaison between the IIRM and the Government on the manner of lobbying in Washington; that facilities of Irish State and semi-State agencies should be made available to the IIRM on demand; examination of the legality of credit unions so that illegal immigrants can bank their money because — under the American system — one cannot bank unless one has a social security number; examination of ways in which the VHI might extend their cover to illegal Irish immigrants.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs met representatives of the IIRM on 24 August last and discussed those demands with them. Following that meeting and discussions with other interested groups, the Government decided that the advisory and welfare services sought should be provided. The inclusion of the IIRM in the committees provided them with a framework within which they could present their demands. That is what is happening.

Questions relating to banking and health insurance have been actively discussed in the New York committees and practical steps are being taken to deal with these problems. Most of the other demands seem to have been dropped by the main body of the IIRM because they seem to be satisfied with the fact that they are in full consultation with Government bodies abroad.

Recently an Irish American newspaper called The Irish Voice edited by a Mr. Niall O'Dowd carried out a survey of Irish illegals in New York. Only about 200 were interviewed, but the main findings were that nearly all had jobs: 77 per cent of men in construction and 54 per cent of the women as nannies; 50 per cent of the men earned between $400 and $500 a week and a further 30 per cent earned between $500 and $750 a week. The women were less well paid with only 51 per cent earning $400 or more; 32 per cent of them had third level education while a further 37 per cent had finished their leaving certificate. So we are talking about emigrants with a high standard of education. Interestingly enough — this is the figure that will catch all of our eyes — 82 per cent had jobs before they left Ireland and 42 per cent said they would definitely return to Ireland.

One of the obvious arguments in our favour is the highly skilled, educated quality of our young people. We recognise that it is tragic that many of them cannot get employment here. However, the US Ambassador has been trying to operate a scheme whereby young Irish people can go to America for a period of two years to learn business techniques and other skills which they can bring back and use here. We all wish her well in this project.

Let me refer to one or two more items here. I would say a word of caution to those Members of the House who argue that the Government should adopt a higher public profile than we have so far done. It is important for Members of this House to know that we are dealing with the passage of legislation in another State's legislative process. We have to be careful not to disturb the sensitivities of our friends in the United States. This is particularly relevant when there are other groups in the US who take a different attitude from ours to any measure in this field. The Government, when taking office, also recognised that we could not wait for a reform measure to be passed before addressing the more immediate problems of the out-of-status Irish.

I would mention here that in relation to the figures that are spelled out about the number of emigrants in the US they vary from 150,000 to as low as 97,000 but we know there are tens of thousands of Irish emigrants in the United States. They should know by now that we do care about them and that we are moving heaven and earth to get something done about their situation very quickly. One of the big problems is the penalties which now fall on employers who employ illegal immigrants and this is causing considerable problems to some of our young people. I understand that in New York 79 young workers were let go from a construction company because of this. However, it is important to state that in the lottery 1,800 have been offered permanent visas for the United States and there are more to come.

The committees which are operating very satisfactorily at the moment in the United States have produced a booklet. Since their establishment only a few months ago they have addressed several key questions facing the Irish community. They have prepared a booklet listing sources of assistance and advice to newly arrived Irish immigrants, identifying low cost health insurance and carrying out research into the banking problems of the out-of-status Irish. I understand that 10,000 copies of the booklet have been run off initially and as soon as it is available they will be circulated to Members of this House. They will also be distributed by the Department of Labour to the offices of the National Manpower Service here.

Health insurance is a serious problem: with the high cost of medical care, which is three or four times what it is here, it can pose real problems for our young people who fall ill. However, in that regard we understand that there are forms of insurance available and some of these can be cheaper than the VHI. As the cost of hospitals here are three or four times lower than in the US, VHI premiums must be prohibitively high. Since most of the income of the Irish illegals in the US is in excess of what they would be getting here, it would be cheaper for them to take up insurance in the United States. The problem has also been tackled in the States. The hospitals of the New York Archdiocese are, thanks to a decision by Cardinal O'Connor, open to immigrants regardless of their status, and they are only assessed where necessary; a similar system obtains in Boston due to the public spirited initiative of Mayor Flynn of that city. The Minister said last night he wanted to record the Government's appreciation of those two moves.

The consulate-based group has researched and identified sources of relatively low cost health insurance during discussions they have had with representatives of the Blue Cross and Blue Shield organisations. These organisations can provide basic cover for about $200 a quarter which seems affordable given the levels of earnings in the United States according to a recent survey, and most Irish immigrants obtain money which would allow this to be possible.

The question of banking has been referred to. Under US law one cannot open a bank account unless one has a social security number. As out-of-status immigrants do not have a social security number effectively, they are blocked out of the banking system. Again, discussions with figures in the banking world have taken place but given the status of US law in this respect no short term solution is available. The subject is still being actively examined. Recently the New York based committees visited Washington and had talks with legislators about recent developments in immigration law. These committees are monitoring developments in areas of current US immigration law, particularly the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986, with reference to three important areas: the amnesty for those in the US prior to 1 January 1982, the allocation of the so-called Donnelly visas and the employer clauses. However, since most of the Irish emigration to the US took place after the date in question this amnesty is of limited importance. The consulates, however, are monitoring its implementation and have ensured that any developments were publicised. A recent and very welcome development was a relaxation of the original ruling by the US Immigration and Naturalisation Service about the length of time somebody could stay outside the United States on holidays since 1982. This has been of considerable help.

I want to allow other Members to contribute to this debate. There are certain organisations which are doing exemplary work in relation to the immigrants in the United States. There is an organisation known as Catholic Charities which is a branch of the administration of the Archdiocese of New York, which operate a programme for the Irish called "Outreach". As well as addressing the medical needs of immigrants, this organisation also addresses problems of accommodation, family questions, legal assistance, mental health services and child services. Then there is the Ancient Order of Hibernians which provide free immigration counselling once a week, the United Irish Counties' Association and the New York GAA. All these have provided assistance in individual hardship cases.

I see Deputy Spring in the House. He is probably aware that the Kerryman's P & B Association in the Bronx comes to mind in this context and its assistance is much appreciated by the Government. Several of these groups have branches in other cities of the United States and the groups based in Philadelphia have organised the establishment of an Irish centre in that city which serves as a focal point for many of the newly arrived Irish in that area. The newcomer on the scene is the Irish Immigration Reform Movement, set up in the past 12 months. These people are now taking their full part in committee with the other organisations.

The question of setting up centres in America similar to those in Britain has been voiced and again the Labour Party are looking to this. The Tánaiste stated last night that one of the reasons why it is not necessary to set up offices for Irish immigrants in the United States in the same way as in Britain is because in Britain there is a different ball game. In the United States the establishment is much more friendly disposed towards the Irish community, probably because of the fact that we have 45 million plus IrishAmericans there.

Mr. Spring

We nearly outnumber them.

Mr. Briscoe

Absolutely. From the cost-benefit point of view the very availability of the Irish Consul General's office in the United States being made fully available by the Government is well worthwhile. The Government have more than lived up to their promise to take this as a high priority. We have taken it as such since we came into office. It is not something about which we should argue among ourselves but on which we should work together. Once our people go to the United States they are not concerned with Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour, The Workers' Party, the PDs or the Independents. They say that we are all Irish, that we are concerned about our brethern in the United States, that we should all be working together and having as big an input as we can towards helping those people, at the same time recognising that when your are bringing pressure to bear, it is not the kind of pressure which you can exert from a distance.

We go to the United States frequently — and I am looking at Deputy Barry and Deputy Spring and, of course, the Tánaiste. I have been there every year for the last four or five years, meeting people over there. There is a great awareness among the Irish community and on St. Patrick's Day as many Members of this House as possible should go there to meet Congressmen, Senators, and State representatives in every State that they reach, to get the message across that we want goodwill towards maximising the number of visas which will be allocated to the Irish. We must all try to relieve the post1982 illegal people of this tremendous concern. I shall conclude on that note.

Mr. Spring

I move amendment No. 1:

(a) After "United States" in the second line, to insert: "and conscious of the hardship caused by involuntary emigration",

(b) to delete "asks" in the second line and substitute "directs",

(c) to add to the motion the following:

"(iv) change the method of tabulating and publishing monthly unemployment figures, to include an account, based on the best possible estimates, of the number of persons who have emigrated in the previous month;

(v) provide adequate resources to bona fide organisations supplying advice and guidance to Irish emigrants abroad;

(vi) undertake a major programme of education and information, particularly among schoolleavers, aimed at spelling out the reasons (a) why Irish people should remain if at all possible here at home; (b) the positive benefits of living and working in Ireland; (c) the need for young people in particular to stay and fight for all our futures rather than allow themselves to be driven out, or to drift into unplanned and frequently glamourised emigration; (d) the facilities and resources available for encouraging indigenous enterprise and opportunity; (e) the difficulties that Irish emigrants will encounter abroad; and in general to counter the myth, now being propagated by the Government among others, that Irish people should regard emigration, even when it is involuntary, as having positive benefits".

In moving the Labour Party amendment to the motion in the names of Deputy Barry and his Fine Gael colleagues, I welcome the opportunity of addressing the contents of this motion in this House. As one who formerly worked in the United States as an illegal immigrant, I am perhaps in as good a position as anybody in this House to speak on this very topic. Ten years ago the circumstances were a lot easier for the illegal Irish in the United States than they are at present. There certainly was goodwill, as mentioned by Deputy Briscoe. There is tremendous goodwill in the United States towards Irish immigrants, be they legal or otherwise, in comparison with countries not that far away from home, in the way they treat the Irish. However, goodwill itself is not sufficient and it may be the old story that it is all well as long as nothing happens.

In those days ten years back, work was readily available. In fact, employers were quite glad to be in a position to assist Irish students or former students when it came to providing jobs for them. The problems arose when accidents happened or illness struck, in relation to the enormous cost of health care in the United States and if any problems followed in relation to finding work. Unfortunately, the problems have increased since then and, if anything, they are now reaching crisis proportions, for two reasons, first, because of the number of people who have been leaving this country and, secondly, because of the new regime now in position in the United States. Heretofore employers were quite glad to get cheap, reliable labour, as they would have looked upon it, and take their chances with the system. However, now with the imposition of the new fines obviously they have to make a calculation and I believe that the calculation is fast becoming that it is not in their interest to take on Irish people who do not have legal status in the United States.

I welcome the opportunity of talking about this topic because action is long overdue. Despite efforts by the previous Government, of which I was a member, to bring this up at the highest level with our counterparts in the United States, despite the fact that every possible opportunity was taken with visiting politicians and certainly in the course of visits to the United States, unfortunately the response for which we were looking has not been forthcoming. I would not underestimate the domestic difficulties facing the United States politicians in relation to solving our problems because obviously there is a plethora of problems which have to be solved in tandem. However, it is our prime function and duty to address the problem as it affects Irish immigrants.

Obviously, emigration is not new to this country. We have had phases of it over the last 150 years. There have been lulls and there have been increases and for the last 15 to 20 years, in particular, we have had hopes and aspirations that it was no longer going to be a very serious problem here. However, time has passed and it is becoming a very serious problem for young Irish people leaving this country once again.

The motion that we are discussing is perhaps a sad and perhaps even a bitter commentary on all of us here in this country. We are faced with a massive human tragedy, the sight of thousands of young people being forced to leave this country, which obviously is their country. In some cases they are forced to live like fugitives abroad and that certainly is the message coming home. The hardship they are suffering is matched in many cases by the hardship they left behind. It is a sad tale of broken families, broken communities, of friendships left behind, uncertain futures and a shattering of expectations. Despite the figures which we can trot out in relation to the successes which people have had in regard to their earning capacity in the United States, there is no doubt that it is a tragedy, a tragedy which at this stage has affected every community, every village and every sports club in this country.

Some years ago one would have felt that this problem would only have manifested itself in the lack of availability of members of football teams on the western seaboard, but I can assure the Members of this House that the problem is now so acute that in this city rugby teams are finding it hard to fill their teams at under age and under 19 levels at the start of the season. In some cases where the opportunities occurred to leave, whole teams have left and that is a sad tale. The plight is getting worse as time goes on. The dismantling of the educational system, in the cause of which 30,000 people were on the streets of Dublin today, will ensure that those who will go will now go unqualified and illequipped to cope with the rigours of life in an alien environment.

Above all, the fact that forced emigration exists and is growing is a reflection on all of us both inside and outside of this House and on our political system. Faced with that reflection it is tragic that the best we can do is discuss a motion like the one before us. That motion does not seek to change the system which has caused this human tragedy. It does not even seek to address the causes and it contains no reference to unemployment, unfair taxation or the absence of opportunity. It ignores the problems of access to education and, rather surprisingly, it does not in fact tell us where the costings are going to come from which is so unlike the Fine Gael Party. In the past they have had difficulty in supporting resolutions in education without having costings specified but perhaps the former Minister for Foreign Affairs will inform the House in his contribution as to what well thought out costings the Fine Gael Party have put together if this motion is accepted by the House.

Instead of looking at the problems which are causing emigration, the motion in its complacency seems to say that emigration is acceptable to us as a society in the 1980s. It seems to say that we want people to leave to relieve the pressure on social spending and to enable us to put a cosmetic finish on our unemployment figures. For these reasons I say on behalf of the Labour Party that this is a grossly inadequate motion and in saying that I know I will offend some Deputies who mean well when they seek additional services for those of our people who are illegal immigrants in the United States. I recognise the good intentions behind this motion and I welcome the motion in that a discussion in this House on this very topic is long overdue.

If we are serious about the plight of emigrants, then we must be equally serious about constructing the only solution which would be of any help to them and that is the solution which would bring home those of them who wish to come home and to provide them with a brighter future in Ireland. I do not believe that we are doing that at present and we have not been doing it for the past 12 months. Instead we have been sending the message to more and more young people that they are not welcome here. That is the message we have to change, and I do not believe this motion of itself will succeed in changing that message. Neither will the complacent response of the Minister for Foreign Affairs to this debate last night. He accepted the principle of the motion before us subject, as he put it, to having the right to work out some of the details in his own way. In other words, we should be under no illusions: the Government do not intend to do anything. I have to dispute the comments of Deputy Briscoe when he said that the Government are doing things. Certainly, the message at present coming back from the United States from the groups involved with illegal immigrants and from the immigrants themselves is not that the changes made are as a result of the efforts of the Minister for Foreign Affairs following his visit some months back but one of dissatisfaction. They feel not half enough is being done on their behalf by the Department of Foreign Affairs under the auspices of the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and that message is going to continue to be brought home. They feel much more has to be done. There is a responsibility upon us to ensure that much more is done in the coming months.

The motion calls for all the resources of the State to be used. The spokesperson for the Progressive Democrats last night said in this debate that her party were going to support the motion on the understanding that it did not cost anything. I sometimes wonder whether we spend too much time in this House and not enough time in the real world. The Irish Immigration Reform Movement are living in the real world. They have already reported that when the Kennedy-Donnelly Bill was discussed at hearings of the Senate judicial committee that the Irish Government were silent on the issue. They report that only one liaison officer has been appointed and that even in Boston, where some of the most powerful Irish-American politicians are prepared to commit themselves, the Irish Consulate has been largely indifferent and that despite what the Minister said here last night there has been no assistance from the Irish Government for a hotline for illegals or for cheaper medical insurance or in respect of banking facilities.

The Minister told us last night that the issue of banking facilities was only a matter of changing the law. As he would say himself, it was no problem, just change the federal law of the United States — which we in this House have no power to do — and everything would be all right. He did not tell us how this was going to be done or whether he had started having discussions with representatives of the United States administration or whether there was any prospect of it being done. If this debate is to achieve anything I would like to feel that these serious complaints and weaknesses being found by the Irish Immigration Reform Movement at present would be addressed by the Government and by the diplomatic representatives of the Department of Foreign Affairs.

I question whether our diplomatic corps as presently established are the right organisation to deal with these problems. I question whether they in fact are streetwise as to the problems facing our emigrants in New York, Boston and other cities of the United States. Perhaps, the Minister should consider whether we should send out officials from other Departments who would be familiar with their problems because speaking from experience somebody in the Bronx would not consider contacting the Embassy or the consulate without a great deal of thought. It would only be as a last resort on a very serious problem. From their experience of the diplomatic service in the past illegal aliens are not going to regard our diplomatic service as being a service which would establish their cases with the administration in the United States.

I say that with respect to our diplomatic corps and to the consular and embassy officials who work on behalf of this country in the United States because I know they work very hard and very effectively on many issues but I also know that if there are deficiencies in their handling of the problems of Irish illegals, and I say there are, those deficiencies in the large part spring from a lack of direction and a lack of resources. They arise because the Government are not particularly serious about this problem.

I have not heard anything on behalf of the Government or the Department of Foreign Affairs during the past 24 hours which would make me feel that the Government are serious about tackling this problem. The attitude — and certainly that which was reflected in the interview which the Minister for Foreign Affairs gave to Newsweek magazine — is basically that Irish illegals are off our hands and that they are someone else's problem.

I knew that if I put down an amendment to this motion calling for a fundamental reappraisal of our approach to economics and fundamental changes in the structures of our society, it would not have been accepted by this House. The mood of this House over the past 12 months has not been one to suggest that a majority of Deputies are interested in fundamental change. Nevertheless, it is the truth that unless we face up to the need for fundamental change we will continue to send our young people abroad by whatever is the cheapest form of transport available.

Since we knew that we would not get the agreement of a majority in this House to fundamental changes in our economic system, the amendment we tabled includes a series of practical statements aimed at increasing the strength of the message of concern which we want to come from this House. The first part of our amendment asks the House to recognise that involuntary emigration causes hardship both directly and indirectly. As someone who has lived abroad I can testify, like many thousands of others, that hardship manifests itself in many ways. For an immigrant often the hardest thing to bear is the hardship of loneliness. That is a hardship all the committees, the liaison officers and the hotlines in the world will not cure. I am sure this part of our amendment is non-contentious.

The second part of our amendment asks the House to direct the Government, rather than simply asking them. This part of the amendment, in the light of the comments made in the contribution by the Minister for Foreign Affairs last night, has to be a direction to the Government. Otherwise I do not feel that we in this House will get the sort of action which this debate requires.

The third part of the amendment requires the Government to take certain steps. First, we are entitled to know the scale of emigration month by month and the Government should be compelled to ensure that we do. This is especially the case when emigration is being used to suggest that unemployment is falling at a time when, in fact, unemployment is rising. The unadjusted live register figures fell by about 13,000 from January to November 1987. Adjusted for seasonal factors, the figures have fallen by less than 1,000. If they were adjusted to show the effects of emigration the figures would have risen. In my estimation they would have risen by at least 25,000 persons. We would be able to see much more clearly the failure of policy and perhaps even be provoked into doing something about it if we were given the true figures on a month by month basis. If nothing else, it might remind us, as we continually need to be reminded, that even though emigrants are off our hands they remain our responsibility. They retain the right to be regarded as Irish citizens even if some of us want to forget that they exist.

Secondly, a far more effective way of dealing with the problems on the ground than working through over stretched consular resources is to make funding available to reputable organisations. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has met some of these organisations and had discussions with them. He even made them some promises over the past number of months. I take it from all that that it is safe to assume that all of the organisations he met with are bona fide organisations. If they are not, the Minister should tell us. If they are, the requests they have made for assistance are very modest and it would not stretch the Minister's budget to make a grant available to them.

Thirdly, there is an urgent need for education, not when it is too late when the emigrants have already left, but throughout the educational cycle. Every day we hear stories about the entrepreneurial skills that are flourishing in the States side by side with the stories about our young people who are drifting into problems. Young people with problems need our help and we need their entrepreneurial skills in this country. It is long past the time when we should be educating our young people to know that there is a future for them here and that the grass is as green in their own country as they will find it anywhere.

Some years ago it was very fashionable for politicians and industrialists who were trying to attract industry to this country to speak of our greatest asset — our young people. That was the slogan for a period of years but it does not seem to be used so often any more. The official policy now seems to be that we do not have the resources, the ability and the dynamic to ensure that our young people remain our greatest asset. Whether or not we like it, as the wheel turns these young people are the future of this country. We must fight with them for a future. If we do not fight with them to give them a future, the confidence that is necessary and the opportunities to use their talents for the benefit of this country, we cannot blame them if they come to the conclusion that we are the ones who have let them down.

In conclusion I urge the Government to accept the Labour Party amendment to this motion. Perhaps the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs might pass on the request to the Minister for Foreign Affairs that we in this House should have an opportunity to monitor, on a continuing basis, exactly what is happening in the United States in relation to this problem. All the good will in this House towards solving the problem should have channelled, developed and fostered. While we might argue and disagree about the actual remedies being proposed and the lack of resources which are being given at any one time, at the end of the day we are talking about a very vulnerable group of people.

As I said at the outset these people are now far more vulnerable than they were ten years ago during my time in the United States. They are threatened from all sides. They no longer have the comfort of considerate employers who are glad to avail of their labours and talents in many facets of industry in the United States, ranging from the construction industry to the service industries. Despite the enormous good will which exists and this must be acknowledged in this House, for the Government and people of this country, and which we should cultivate and foster, the difficulties are now becoming insurmountable.

I have itemised the main problems as I see them. They range from lack of health care to a total lack of security for our young people. The previous speaker said that as many Deputies as possible should go to the United States for the St. Patrick's Day celebrations and other celebrations, but I do not believe it is good enough. A five minute meeting with conviction in relation to looking for solutions to these problems would be far better than the presence of every Member of this House on the streets of New York during St. Patrick's Day parades. We should be looking for responses from the Government.

There is no doubt that a lot of goodwill towards the Irish exists there and we should tap it. We should ensure that the services offered to us by the Irish American politicians, some of whom command tremendous respect in the political arena in the US, are taken up. We should provide a facility, perhaps in the form of a committee of the House, for discussing a topic like this. There is no doubt that a debate on this matter is long overdue. In the past there was a tendency to say that either the problem did not exist or that by highlighting it we were drawing attention to the many illegal aliens in the US.

Our approach to solving the problem must be two-pronged. We must address the fundamental problem associated with unemployment here and provide all assistance possible to Irish immigrants in the US. I commend the amendment to the House.

Mr. McCartan

Amendment No. 2 in the names of Deputies of The Workers' Party reads:

After "United States" in the second line to insert the following:

"and realising that our exceptionally high level of unemployment, which has continued under successive Coalition and Fianna Fáil Governments, has been the main contributing factor to renewed emigration, calls for a properly planned programme of job creation, based on a major expansion of the productive State sector, to ensure that nobody is forced to emigrate through lack of job opportunities,".

We do not disagree with the objectives of the Fine Gael motion but any debate on the forced emigration or economic extradition of young people and young families — indeed, some of them are not so young — cannot take place without referring to the root cause of that forced emigration. Our party have consistently made the case that our economy has the capacity to provide work for all at home. We argue that we have the land, the timber, the minerals and, above all, a young willing workforce to put those resources to good use and create the jobs and wealth necessary to keep all our people in Ireland. It has been the abysmal political failure of successive Governments, Fianna Fáil and Coalition, that they took economic decisions to throw good money after bad and into the pockets of private speculators who did not have any serious commitment to the development of our economy or the creation of full employment. Emigration will continue for as long as we pursue such economic policies. It will continue for as long as Irish Governments fail to change their economic approach. If those policies are pursued the views expressed last night and tonight on this motion will measure very thinly in regard to expressing concern for our young people who go abroad in search of work.

It is important in the course of a debate on the conditions and rights of people who go abroad in search of work that we dispel the notion, or inclination towards that notion, as expressed by the Minister for Foreign Affairs in an interview with the American magazine, Newsweek, earlier this year, that it was a good thing to have so many young people going abroad, it was something we should not be worried about and it was a matter that did not require immediate Government action. It must be emphasised that the departure of any person, whether willingly or not, from home and family in search of a livelihood abroad is traumatic. To have to do so out of necessity is all the more traumatic.

Such departures represent the loss of young workers to our own workforce and a huge loss to our economy in terms of the investment that went into the education of those young people to attain the skills they will develop abroad. Many of the young people who emigrate to America do not have a proper permit with the result that they must work under deplorable conditions. They do not have social insurance cover, health care cover, or the right of redress for any injury they might suffer at the hands of callous exploiters in the work place or elsewhere. They must hide out of fear of being detected and as a result suffer all forms of exploitation at the hands of employers many of whom in turn make their contributions at functions like Cairde Gael of 100 dollars per plate or fund raising dinners for Fianna Fáil and the other major political parties in this House.

It must be recognised that as long as the problem exists for Irish immigrants our Government have an obligation to be actively involved on their behalf and concerned about their plight. The reaction to the remarks of the Minister for Foreign Affairs should have brought it home to the Government that their attitude will not be tolerated. The formation of groups like the Irish Immigration Reform Movement should bring home to the Government that there is a need for active involvement and a positive reaction to the plight of Irish immigrants.

An Ceann Comhairle

I apologise for interrupting the Deputy but I must point out to him that the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs is anxious to participate in the debate and that I am obliged to call the Fine Gael spokesperson, Deputy Peter Barry, at 8.15 p.m. to conclude. Will the Deputy be kind enough to facilitate the Minister of State?

Mr. McCartan

I will. I appreciate being given the opportunity to comment on our amendment. There is a great need for active involvement by the Government in regard to the plight of Irish immigrants in the US. I am not satisfied that the efforts to date in meeting the demands of people like the Irish Immigration Reform Movement are adequate. There is much that they sought in their charter that the Government have not responded to in this whole debate on the economic extradition of so many of our young people. There is a prima facie case, but it condemns this and successive Governments here to the charge of neglect and lack of care.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Mr. Calleary)

I welcome the opportunity to participate in this debate and I intend to do so in the manner in which it started last night and continued then and for most of this evening. I welcome especially the way Deputy Spring started and, let me say, finished the debate. However, between start and finish he seems to have forgotten that the Labour Party, in whose name this amendment is down, were in Government for about six of the last eight years.

Before I comment on the amendment in the name of The Workers' Party let me say that what is needed is to make certain the economy can sustain properly the number of people who now, unfortunately, have to emigrate. I was a little worried by the fact that Deputy Spring seemed to indicate that quite a large number of non-status immigrants in the US for some reason or other do not want to go to the Irish Embassy or consulates. It should go out from here tonight that they should be encouraged to go to the embassy and the consulates because there they will get the information and help they need.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs last night accepted on behalf of the Government the terms of the Fine Gael motion before the House. He said there were certain things he would like to see not pushed, but he has accepted the terms of the motion in general.

It is most desirable that there be as broad a range as possible of national agreement on issues such as emigration. This issue does not arise due to any one Government policy or lack of it but to a series of events some, at least, of which are outside the power of any Government. As the Minister said last night, emigration is a fact and we all accept that fact. We must change the root causes of emigration by doing everything we can to bring about an economic atmosphere in which jobs, the only real antidote to emigration, can be created. Simultaneously, however, we must face the fact of emigration and try to alleviate its harsher aspects.

Since their election to office the Government, in line with their pre-election promises in this context, have faced the unpleasant fact of emigration particularly to the US and have tried to improve those structures within which our emigrants there currently live and work. As we are all too aware, there are tens of thousands of young Irish men and women in the US today whose status is unclear and uncertain. They fear they might somehow come to official notice.

For our part we have attacked the problem on two levels. In the first place as a direct result of the very prompt diplomatic initiative undertaken by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, almost immediately after their election, good friends of Ireland in the US Congress, Senator Edward Kennedy and Congressman Brian Donnelly, set to work and produced a draft Bill which has already had one hearing before the relevant sub-committee of the powerful US Senate Judiciary Committee. I would like to join with other speakers in paying tribute to these two US political leaders for the initiative they have shown in this matter. I take some pride in recalling how in a speech I made in the Seanad in June I expressed the Government's appreciation for what Senator Kennedy and Congressman Donnelly had earlier done in the context of the passing of the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 when the famous so-called lottery visa provision was passed.

Nobody knows whether the US legislative system, which is a great deal more complex than ours, will in fact pass this measure and if so in what form. I believe, nonetheless, that it might be helpful if I outlined briefly for the benefit of Deputies the key provisions in this Bill. Before doing so I would like to explain the main features of the current US permanent immigrant system. Under a US law of 1965 already referred to by many Deputies 270,000 such visas are granted annually. There are six classes of potential beneficiaries among whom the 270,000 visas are divided. For the purpose of the Kennedy-Donnelly Bill the key categories are numbers 3 and 5 which refer to professional and skilled workers respectively. At present 50,000 visas are allocated to each such class. What this Bill would in effect do would be add a special subcategory of 25,000 visas to each of these categories. The basis for applications for visas under the existing category would remain the same, that is first come, first served. However, for the two new subcategories, eligibility would be determined by success under a points system. There are 11 headings under which points are allocated. The headings and the points allocated to each are as follows:

1. Migrants from country disadvantaged under 1965 Act which includes Ireland	30 points
2. Migrants with prearranged employment in US	20 points
3. Migrants with High School (that is the equivalent of Leaving Certificate) Education	12 points
4. Migrants with Primary Degree	10 points
5. Migrants with Higher Degree	up to 5 points
6. Migrants with Vocational Education	up to 10 points
7. Migrants aged between 18 and 40 years (with a loss of 2 points for each year over 40)	10 points
8. Migrants with skills determined by US Secretary of Labour as needed in US	up to 20 points
9. Migrants with work experience in area determined by the US Secretary of Labour as needed in the US	up to 10 points
10. Migrants who are the married brothers and sisters of US citizens, if such citizens are over 21 years	10 points
11. Migrants who can speak and read English	10 points

As Deputies see, the maximum number of points comes to 147. The Bill proposes that a minimum score of 70 points must be attained before an applicant can be considered for a visa.

The proposed system is so geared that well-trained English speaking workers from one of the countries disadvantaged under the current law stand a good chance of passing the 70 point threshold and being considered for a visa. However, the Government are not confining their efforts to Washington but are also facing up to the harsh facts facing the individual out of status immigrant. Clearly such an immigrant has difficulty getting a job — a process made much more complicated under provisions of a US law passed last year. When he or she gets one he or she could be easily exploited by unscrupulous employers, a matter mentioned by a number of Deputies. Their health insurance situation is unclear partly because they have difficulty relating to the US system, partly because being out of status they are excluded by the US social welfare system, they are charged high rents. I could go on with this depressing litany.

I would, however, like to make the point that there is already a system in place which acts as something of a safety net for the new arrival. The media coverage of the plight of the out of status Irish has unaccountably lost sight of the efforts of several very influential and sympathetic Irish-American bodies who have constantly done tremendously good work over the years and are really rising to the challenge the present problem has created. I refer to the Ancient Order of Hibernians, the United Irish Counties Association, the Irish American Labour Coalition and the GAA in particular. These have, either directly or via bodies affiliated to them, given great moral and sometimes financial support to individual Irish citizens who are suffering personal hardship. They give advice about jobs, accommodation and, most importantly nowadays, legal aid to those who wish to regularise their position. In several cases they have fund-raised for migrants who ran up costly medical bills. For example, as Deputy Briscoe said, the Kerryman's P & B Association of the Bronx provided considerable financial aid in five tragic cases of young Kerry people who died tragically in New York in the past year. I would like to place on the record of this House the Government's deep appreciation for all their efforts on behalf of fellow Irishmen and women.

The efforts of these Irish-American bodies have been supplemented by decisions made in New York by the church authorities there and in Boston by the Mayor. In New York Cardinal O'Connor has set up a special programme called "Project Irish Outreach" which is run by the Catholic Charities, a part of the administration of the Archdiocese of New York. Under this project free medical care is being provided in the Catholic hospitals of the archdiocese to all migrants, irrespective of status, who are without funds. The project also addresses questions of accommodation, family matters, legal assistance and child services. In Boston, Mayor Flynn has provided that the hospitals under the care of his administration are also open to migrants and he has also set up a legal advice service which, when fully operational, will have no fewer than 60 lawyers involved.

I have dealt at some length with this aspect of the situation because I do not believe it is fully appreciated here. As Deputies are aware, the families of all these migrants are most concerned at the vulnerability of their sons and daughters, particularly when they are excluded from the local state health benefits that we take for granted in this country. However, I have tried to show that though that is so, there are a number of private safety nets which are there to take care of our citizens who run into particular problems and that while the out of status nature of their stay in the United States is a matter of the highest importance, and is so regarded by the Government, solutions do exist for other problems they may have. Indeed, the way is open to them to seek low cost legal aid which may help individuals resolve this basic problem as well.

Naturally close links have developed over the years between our offices in the United States — our embassy at Washington and our consulates general at New York, Boston, Chicago and San Francisco — and the representatives of the Irish-American, church and local state bodies in their consular areas which I should explain cover not only the city in which they are based but several of the neighbouring states as well. In fact, the whole of the United States is covered by one or other of our offices. Accordingly when the Government were seeking ways of tackling the problems individual Irish citizens were facing on the ground, so to speak, we naturally turned to our consulates general and the informal framework that has already existed as providing the best possible base for a really effective organisation geared to meet the needs of our newly arrived out of status immigrants.

The Government decided, following visits by the Minister in August and September of this year when he met with the representatives of those Irish-American bodies, to set up more formal arrangements when needed and as a result immigration working committees have been set up based on our consulates general at New York and Boston. A further reason for using the consulates general in this way was that they had official and diplomatic standing vis-á-vis the United States Government agencies at the federal level such as the United States Immigration and Naturalisation Service and at the State and city level and had already contacts in these agencies. Indeed, in Boston the city administration is represented on the working committee.

The agencies I have mentioned plus the Irish Immigration Reform Movement which was set up by some of the newly arrived out of status Irish citizens, have all been invited to join. Since September — and I would remind Deputies we are only talking of a period of three months — they have met several times, set up sub committees to deal with individual problems and are already producing results.

The Minister yesterday outlined the work that had already been done particularly in the information, health and banking areas by the New York Consulate Committee. If I may, I would like to recapitulate very briefly what he said. Following a pooling of information in the New York Consulate Working Committee, an information booklet giving essential information to newly arrived migrants has been drawn up. The New York City authorities have agreed to print 10,000 copies of this and we will arrange for as wide a distribution of this booklet as possible. On the health front, the provision of health insurance is most important, particularly as United States hospital expenses are three to four times higher than here. Following research into the question, the committee have identified a number of low cost insurance systems that should be affordable to the average migrant. The committee will see about publicising the existence of these schemes.

The question of banking is another difficult one as out of status migrants cannot open a bank account. The working committee have also looked into this but quick solutions are not easy to come by. The committee will, with the help of contacts in the banking world, continue to seek solutions in this area.

I will not be able to finish my speech because of sharing time. We accept the Fine Gael motion in general. In the very short time this Government have been in office they have done a great deal for these people. They have given the problem the priority they promised, and they will continue to do so. I will put before the Minister and the Government the matter mentioned by Deputy Spring as regards continous monitoring. However, I can assure him that this is a problem the Government are taking very seriously and that there is ongoing monitoring of the out of status immigrants in the United States.

Mr. Barry

I thank everybody who contributed to this motion, and in particular the Minister of State who made a very constructive contribution. This motion gives the House an opportunity to present to the outside world a unified voice on a subject which is of concern to the whole country. The last time this happened was when we were dealing with the motion relating to the Arias Convention on Central America.

This is not a motion on emigration in the broadest sense. It is a carefully drafted motion to deal with the Irish out of status immigrants in the United States. It is designed and worded in such a way that every Deputy and all parties should have no problem supporting it, to show people outside this House, and particularly the Irish out of status immigrants in the United States, that all parties are concerned about their plight, are behind the Government and the Minister, and will do everything they can to try to bring about a change in their status.

I regret very much that the Labour Party and The Workers' Party have, from an argumentative stand in one case, and an ideological stand in another, put down amendments to this motion, neither of which I propose to accept.

The Labour Party motion, no doubt well meaning, contains many pious aspirations. Deputy Spring spoke about mobilising the good will in this House and said it should have a channel. That channel is the Fine Gael motion before the House. I am sorry The Workers' Party should use this occasion not to express concern about the plight of these illegal immigrants in the United States but to give another airing to that party's aged ideological horse. It would be far more constructive if they had supported our motion and given the necessary support to those many agencies in America, as well as this Government, who are trying to do something to help these people who are in such an unfortunate position.

Mr. Sherlock

Emigration is always a safety valve for that party.

Mr. Barry

The Deputy is demonstrating the point I am trying to make.

Mr. Sherlock

Get rid of them.

Mr. Barry

The old clichés are being trotted out again. They are of no benefit to the unfortunate people in New York, San Francisco and other areas.

We have no intention of embarrassing the Minister in this regard because I recognise he has done his best with this very difficult job. We want him and the people in America, who will be reading with cynicism some of the contributions made from some of the parties here, to recognise that they have our support and goodwill. We want something done for these out of status Irish immigrants in the United States.

This is not a debate on emigration in the broad sense. I would very much welcome the opportunity of having a debate in this House on emigration in its broadest sense and on the kind of argument made by Deputy Spring and Deputy McCartan. They would have a place in such a debate but not in this one which is for a separate and different purpose and is narrow in its application.

I should join with other speakers who have thanked in particular Congressman Donnelly because he was the initiator of the 1986 Act known as the Lottery Act. This was valuable and Congressman Donnelly told me that he had introduced this Act to demonstrate to Government in its broadest sense in America that there was still a demand and a need for immigration from these countries. Having established that, by his 1986 Act he intended to bring forward another Bill on a much broader basis to deal with a whole lot of other issues and the numbers who would be allowed in. The Kennedy-Donnelly Bill at present being debated in Congress is the product of Congressman Donnelly's original Bill last year. We all hope that it will be amended as little as possible because, from the Irish point of view, it was very helpful legislation. We should express our very warm thanks to Senator Kennedy and Congressman Donnelly for what they have done. We should also thank Senator Damato who also introduced a Bill in the House and we should not forget that Congressman Kennedy has another motion before the Senate. All these people recognised the very serious problems and are attempting in their various ways to do something about it.

Tributes have been paid here to Mayor Flynn of Boston and I do not want to take away from what he has done but long before he did anything Cardinal O'Connor and the Executive Director of the Catholic Charities organisation, Monsignor Murray, who was here in the last fortnight, recognised the need to do something. They have done excellent work in arranging legal status for immigrants and have issued instructions to the 13 Catholic hospitals that if anyone is in the unfortunate position of needing medical care, they are to be treated free in those hospitals. They should be thanked for their work in that regard. While Cardinal O'Connor and Monsignor Murray dealt with the illegal immigrants, all the other initiatives in Congress have been dealing with legal immigrants. If the Donnelly-Kennedy Bill goes through, there will be an increase in the quota of nationals from other countries who can live legally in America. However, that still leaves in limbo people who went to the United States post-1982 and, therefore, cannot avail of the 1986 amnesty. They will not be able to avail of the Kennedy-Donnelly Bill and it is to their situation that the Fine Gael motion is addressed.

There is a great problem in regard to emigration and perhaps we could do more about it in this House. However, our prime concern at the moment is the illegals. We also want to ensure — this is more a subject for a broader debate — that all immigrants from this country should maintain in whatever way possible their links with this country. If I may give myself a little plus, as Minister for Foreign Affairs, I put in an enormous amount of work with regard to emigrants to the United Kingdom. I hope it was fruitful and gave them the sense that, even though they were living and working in another country, the Government here were interested in their plight and wanted to do something to help them to maintain that link. For the reasons I outlined and because of our concern for emigration generally, especially for the illegals in America, we decided to form a committee on emigration. Illegal emigrants to all countries, Australia, Germany, Britain and America, should be helped.

The problem in dealing with the illegals in America — they should more correctly be referred to as out of status people — is that it is difficult to get precise figures as to how many are involved. The Taoiseach, replying to a Dáil Question about two weeks ago, gave a figure of 99,000 emigrants over the last five years but, of course, this includes people going to countries all over the world, legally and illegally. Another report said that 35,000 people had emigrated last year, so, obviously, there are different views in that regard. The general belief in America is, on the basis of somewhat imprecise surveys, that there are about 125,000 illegal immigrants in America. All those figures do not add up but, no matter what the figure is, it is clear to all sides of the House, and particularly in America, that there is a large body of Irish people living and working in America who are out of status and about whom we want to do something.

It has been said a number of times here tonight that the conditions under which they live and work are appalling. They face not only the difficulty of coping with a differently structured society but also have the major handicap of having no legal status in the eyes of the United States authorities. This is a huge difficulty for young people who sometimes are out of this country for the first time. Sometimes it can be dangerous for them because the United States does not have a developed welfare system such as they are accustomed to in Ireland. The churches here take a lot of interest in people who are emigrating and point out the pitfalls they are likely to meet when they get there.

Illegal immigrants have no access to health insurance, so even a relatively minor accident can prove a threat to their livelihood and well-being. Illegals cannot manage their incomes sufficiently well to cope with the lifestyle of that society. It is impossible for them to open bank accounts and lines of credit. It is difficult, if not impossible, to report crimes, robberies or attacks on them for fear of attracting official attention to their status. There was a horrifying account on the radio and in the newspapers last week of a young girl who was raped in New York and who did not report it because she would draw attention to her illegal status. That situation must not be allowed to continue.

Employers have to be careful about whom they employ and if they knowingly employ illegals they are liable to prosecution. In the Minister's circulated speech — which he had not time to complete — he said that the employer clause is causing this Government most concern. Under the terms of the 1986 Act, the onus is on employers to ensure that all their employees are entitled to work and that failure to do so could result in increasing amounts of levy being imposed on offending employers. It must be recognised that this provision is part and parcel of US law and that the US immigration and naturalisation service is obliged under US law to implement it. The embassy in Washington and our consulates general are, however, under instruction to monitor this situation most closely and to take whatever action can be taken should its implementation affect the interests of Irish citizens. The Minister added that he reserved the right to intervene when necessary in this context. I hope I am not reading more into those remarks than there is and that the Minister has some basis for believing that he does have the right to intervene and that he can solve the problems of people who are threatened with loss of employment because their employers have discovered they are out of status. If the Minister can stand over that paragraph it will have been the most significant part of this debate in the past two nights.

I wish to refer lastly to our self interest in this — I do not intend this to be taken in a selfish way — in ensuring that the status of these people is changed. We do not want to see them drift into the clutches of IRA support groups in the United States who would exploit them for reasons that would not be in the interests of anybody in this House or on this island. We all have a common interest in sending a message to the illegals that they should not lose hope and that we in this House and in this country are concerned for their welfare and want to do something about it. That was the spirit in which I had hoped this debate would be conducted. Everybody in this House is concerned that the Minister should get our full support in using his influence, not just among the very valuable friends of Ireland who have been such true friends to these people but also at another level which is available to the Minister but which is generally not available to other Irish politicians, that is, the State Department in Washington.

I thank the House again for their contributions to this debate and I hope that at some future date we can avail of a full debate on emigration in its broadest sense.

Question put: "That amendment No. 1 be made."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 123.

Tá

• Bell, Michael.
• De Rossa, Proinsias.
• Desmond, Barry.
• Gregory, Tony.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• McCartan, Pat.
• Mac Giolla, Tomás.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Spring, Dick.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.

Níl

• Abbott, Henry.
• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Andrews, David.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barnes, Monica.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Peter.
• Begley, Michael.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Matthew.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John.
• Bruton, John.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Ray.
• Byrne, Hugh.
• Calleary, Seán.
• Carey, Donal.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Colley, Anne.
• Conaghan, Hugh.
• Connolly, Ger.
• Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
• Coughlan, Mary T.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Creed, Donal.
• Crotty, Kieran.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dennehy, John.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Donnellan, John.
• Doyle, Avril.
• Dukes, Alan.
• MacSharry, Ray.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Mooney, Mary.
• Morley, P.J.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Naughten, Liam.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Noonan, Michael J.
• (Limerick East).
• Noonan, Michael J.
• (Limerick West).
• O'Brien, Fergus.
• O'Dea, William Gerard.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Leary, John.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Ellis, John.
• Enright, Thomas.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Fahey, Jackie.
• Farrelly, John V.
• FitzGerald, Garret.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermott.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Flood, Chris.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Foley, Denis.
• Gallagher, Denis.
• Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harney, Mary.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hegarty, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Hilliard, Colm Michael.
• Hussey, Gemma.
• Hyland, Liam.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Kennedy, Geraldine.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lawlor, Liam.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Leyden, Terry.
• Lowry, Michael.
• Lynch, Michael.
• Lyons, Denis.
• McCarthy, Seán.
• McCoy, John S.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• O'Malley, Pat.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Roche, Dick.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, P.J.
• Smith, Michael.
• Stafford, John.
• Swift, Brian.
• Taylor-Quinn, Madeline
• Treacy, Noel.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Walsh, Seán.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wright, G.V.
• Wyse, Pearse.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Howlin and Taylor; Níl, Deputies O'Brien and Flanagan.

Question declared lost.

An Ceann Comhairle

Now we will move on to amendment No. 2 in the names of Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla and others.

Tomás Mac Giolla

I move amendment No. 2:

After "United States" in the second line to insert the following: "and realising that our exceptionally high level of unemployment, which has continued under successive Coalition and Fianna Fáil Governments, has been the main contributing factor to renewed emigration, calls for a properly planned programme for job creation, based on a major expansion of the productive State sector, to ensure that nobody is forced to emigrate through lack of job opportunities,".

Amendment put and declared lost.

Motion put and agreed to.