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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 May 1988

Vol. 380 No. 10

Intoxicating Liquor Bill, 1988: Report Stage.

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 5, to delete lines 32 and 33, and substitute the following:

"‘waiting area' means an area—

(a) that is set aside as a waiting area in a restaurant for the purposes only of accommodating persons waiting to enter the dining area of the restaurant for the purpose of consuming a meal, and

(b) whose floor area does not exceed 20 per cent. of the floor area of the dining area of the restaurant.".

This amendment makes two changes in the definition of "waiting area" from that in the Bill as initiated. As suggested by Deputy Barrett, I have ensured that waiting areas can only be used by persons waiting for a meal. I accept that under the original definition there was a chance that these areas could be used for some other purposes. I have written into the definition the maximum floor area that a waiting area can have in relation to the dining area. At 20 per cent, this will ensure that restaurants cannot build waiting areas which are out of proportion to the area of the dining area. This could have turned waiting areas into large lounge-type rooms where persons could drink at length before a table in the perhaps smaller dining room would become available. One effect is that if a restaurant has a waiting area which is more than 20 per cent of the dining area drink cannot be supplied or consumed in it.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 2.

In page 6, line 24, after "restaurant,", to insert "the area of which will be delineated in a map or plan,".

I should like to hear the Minister's comments.

I pointed out to the House on Committee State that the intention of section 8 (1) is that the applicant for a special restaurant licence must show to the satisfaction of the Circuit Court that a Bord Fáilte certificate in respect of the restaurant is in force. It would be inappropriate that any provision as to the content of a certificate should be included in section 8 (1). I note that under the Deputy's amendment the map or plan would merely show the area of the restaurant concerned but would not apparently show the disposition of the accommodation. The Deputy's amendment states that the area will be delineated. I presume this would already have been done before the issue of the certificate. The waiting area and the dining area of the restaurant will be the only areas in which liquor can be sold and consumed. The maximum floor area of the waiting area in relation to the dining area is now given in the definition of "waiting room" and the maximum accommodation which the restaurant as a whole can contain can be provided for in the standard regulations. Any provision requiring the attaching of a plan to the Bord Fáilte certificate would be a matter to be examined by the Minister for Tourism and Transport in preparing the restaurant standard regulations and would not be appropriate for specific mention in this Bill.

I originally tabled this amendment on Committee Stage to tighten up on possible abuses. I am pleased the Minister in his amendment accepted the principle which I enunciated, that abuses could take place in relation to the special restaurant licences. Whereas we are all anxious that genuine, bona fide restaurants will be able to serve drink to a person, none of us would want to see abuses creeping in as a result of this new legislation. I am quite satisfied that the Minister has accepted the principle of my original amendment by way of Government amendment No. 1. For that reason I do not think there is any great necessity to proceed with amendment No. 2.

The Minister may recall that on Committee Stage the question of a definition of a bar as a piece of equipment as distinct from an area, commonly accepted as a euphemism for a public house, was raised by me and the Minister undertook — and it was with the consent of the House — to come back and clarify the position. I think, Sir, I am in order in raising it at this point because we are on the area of definitions. Is the Minister in a position to clarify the point which he said he would examine on Committee Stage, because I do not see any specific reference to it in his own amendments?

I am aware we are on Report Stage and that I am limited in the number of times I may speak. I think, if I am correct, I can only speak once on any particular item. I would put it to the Minister——

If I might explain to Deputy Quinn, that ordinarily he would be out of order now because Deputy Barrett, in whose name the amendment appears has already replied, but perhaps the Deputy was not aware of that.

We are on amendment No. 2. A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I do not think Deputy Barrett's remarks were technically a reply. On a point of order, I think he invited the Minister to respond first. He formally moved the amendment, he then spoke, but I do not think he intended to close the debate. That was his intention.

This one point concerns me and I will not delay the House with it. The Minister may recall, and certainly the officials will recall, that this point was raised by me. Does the Minister propose to deal with this point through regulations or through this Bill, because I cannot see how it is being dealt with in the amendments in his name?

I am only anxious to make a point which Deputy Quinn made last day, and I am surprised he has not made it again — perhaps he has been satisfied about it in the meantime — that is that the restriction on the waiting area, with which I absolutely agree, will not at the same time be so interpreted as to prevent the restaurant owner from putting into that area whatever decor he chooses and from adopting whatever mode he wishes of serving drink during the waiting period, and even if it should be a bar of the sort which might look more like a dressing table or something like that, with buttoned imitation leather and chrome buttons in the glass and so forth, I hope it will not be seen as in breach of the law which generally prohibits them from having a bar on their premises. I really think the Minister might give a very simple answer to that in a couple of words, because the two of us have raised this a number of times today and the last day.

There is no specific amendment dealing with this particular point. I want to refer briefly, if I am in order, to assurances I gave Deputy Kelly on at least two occassions during the course of Committee Stage. The Minister for Tourism and Transport who will be involved in the making of regulations in this area has no intention whatsoever of dictating to any special licence holder on the decor or on the number of drinks — another part of the same question raised by Deputy Kelly — to be served on the premises. It will not be a bar, and this is clearly laid out in the definition; it is a waiting area where drinks will be served. People may have whatever drinks they want but it will not be a bar.

I am only allowed to speak once and I have had my shot. I have no interest in the thing one way or the other except as an occasional guest but I am not really happy with the Minister's reply.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Perhaps we should remind the House again of the modus operandi in respect of Report Stage. The Deputy, in whose name the amendment appears, will move it, make his or her contribution and then everybody else, including the Minister, will speak once. Then, the move of the amendment will conclude, but when the Deputy in whose name the amendment appears has concluded we take that to mean what it says and that there will be no more contributions.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 6, line 32, after "satisfied" to insert "including inter alia by annual inspection”.

I understood that the Minister was amenable to this amendment the last day and I thought he would bring forward something himself. I just want to make it quite clear in the legislation, that an annual inspection should take place — bearing in mind that we are talking about special restaurant licences — before Bord Fáilte would be in a position to issue the appropriate certificate, which in effect is the real means of obtaining a special restaurant licence. The official responsible should have the opportunity of actually inspecting the premises and seeing that they accord with the principles laid down in the legislation and with the regulations to be made by the Minister for Tourism and Transport.

I do not see an amendment from the Minister dealing with this point and I am more than anxious to see to it that the legislation makes it quite clear that Bord Fáilte will be obliged to carry out an annual inspection. Indeed, as I said the last day, the taxpayer should not be expected to fund the cost of such an inspection, which should be built into the regulations. We should make certain that whatever cost falls on Bord Fáilte to provide this service should be borne by those seeking the licence. I would assume that a standard charge would be appropriate because an inspector would be covering an area and would not be visiting just one premises. Inspections would be carried out in the course of inspecting a number of premises in the area and I assume a standard charge should apply. I am anxious that we should make it quite clear that in order to obtain a certificate from Bord Fáilte, an inspection must be carried out whether it be an initial inspection or an inspection for renewal purposes.

I agree with the thrust of Deputy Barrett's amendment. While he is right when he says it is not referred to specifically in the Bill, it is not necessary to refer specifically to this in the Bill.

First, I will deal with the fees charged to the applicant. That will be covered in the regulations, and as the Deputy knows, at his own request and that of Deputy Colley, the regulations will come before the House for discussion before they are actually in operation. That will be covered by regulations.

Of course, there will have to be an inspection and this will be part of the responsibility of Bord Fáilte, and as a result of an inspection of the applicant's premises, they would then make a decision as to whether the premises should be licensed. We do not intend that there could be only one inspection in the year, which could be interpreted from Deputy Seán Barrett's amendment because it only provides for one annual inspection, but I am satisfied that it could happen that in some cases Bord Fáilte would want to inspect a particular premises more than once a year. This would be referred to in the regulations and it is more appropriate that it be covered by regulations than in the Bill proper.

There is no difference in intention between us. We both want to achieve the same thing.

When I saw this amendment I thought there should be an "s" after the word "inspection" because I think the premises should be subject to inspections by, for example, the local authority, the health board, and to see that they comply with fire regulations. The normal procedure is that most publicans and hoteliers, who hold licences, are inspected annually and sometimes twice, as the inspector may have to come back to be satisfied that the recommendations made by the local authority and the health board have been carried out. In the case of Bord Fáilte I expect that the same criteria will apply.

I support the thrust of this amendment. It could not be construed, in its present form, to limit the inspection numbers to one per year. It sets an annual inspection as the minimum inspection rate but I take the Minister at his word that it is intended that there should be more than one inspection. To include a phrase such as "including inter alia by annual inspection” sets out for Bord Fáilte that that is to be part of the process. It is worthwhile putting it into the legislation because it does not just deal with one aspect of the granting of these licences, it covers many of the conditions that will be involved. An annual inspection will ensure on a number of fronts that the regulations and the legislation are being adhered to.

I support Deputy Barrett's amendment. It is a useful base line to have in the legislation. It lays a statutory duty to carry out a minimum inspection of once a year, on each premises operating. I would be more concerned that in the climate of cutback in resources, there would be an inclination on the part of Bord Fáilte to visit premises less frequently than annually. The Minister hopes that inspection would be on an annual basis. The principle should be written into the Bill and it would be a matter for regulations to build on that principle and to expand on it if necessary. I am concerned that as resources become scarcer the longer the present Government continue in office, there will be a greater likelihood that there will be no inspections at all because of the absence either of staff or finance.

One fear I have about this legislation in general — I think I can state it on this amendment — is that the extension of the licensing provisions to restaurants and, as a result, the vast increase in the number of restaurants looking for licences will lead to a lowering of the standards of restaurants. Instead of doing the tourist business good, as is intended, it could very well damage it. We are very good at making provisions, especially in relation to licensing laws, that they will be tightened up, that certain things will be done and that severe penalties will be imposed but as time goes on the enforcement of these regulations becomes more lax until we reach the point where they virtually disappear. Unless we ensure that inspections are carried out, as is provided for in this amendment, or that objections are made at the annual licensing District Court, the standard of restaurants will become dangerously low.

We are also very good at providing regulations that cannot be enforced. Just as I came into the House a discussion was taking place on the waiting area. I do not think it will be more difficult to control or to monitor any other area than this one. How are the authorities to know whether people who are having a drink in the waiting area will ever get as far as the eating area? If the gardaí come in and find them sitting there, they will go and have a hearty meal but if the gardaí do not appear they might feel they do not want a meal and will just go about their business. Maybe there is provision elsewhere in the Bill for dealing with that matter. I am wholeheartedly in favour of Deputy Barrett's provision about inspections in so far as they will go some of the way to ensuring that the law dealing with the licensing of restaurants for the full service of drink will not be abused. I believe it will be grossly abused.

I ask the Minister to accept this amendment. There is nothing political about it. He said when replying to Second Stage that if people put forward amendments designed to improve the legislation he would be prepared to consider and accept them if they were appropriate. This amendment is built into a section which deals with application for Circuit Court certificates. That section specifies procedure for applying initially for a licence and for the renewal of licences. It will not do the legislation any harm if we make it quite clear that this House wants to see an annual inspection being carried out, just as an initial inspection will have to be carried out before the Bord Fáilte certificate will be granted. That does not prevent Bord Fáilte in any way from carrying out any other inspections at any other time during the year. Section 13 makes provision for the cancellation of a Bord Fáilte certificate. I am quite certain that if such a serious step were to be taken as to cancel a Bord Fáilte certificate the very minimum that would be required is that somebody from Bord Fáilte would visit the premises. It is worthwhile to make it quite clear in the section dealing with the application for Circuit Court certificates that we want an annual inspection carried out. I think all parties in the House appear to be in agreement on that. I ask the Minister to accept this amendment which is worthwhile.

I cannot comment.

It would be possible for the Minister to say yes or no.

I say yes. It is not necessary but I have regard to the views expressed by Members. I agree with what we are trying to do. We are all in agreement on this. I take the advice of elder statesmen who are familiar with the difficulties of the legal profession in enforcing the law.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 4:

In page 7, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:

"(5) If, in any case, the Board refuses to grant a Bord Fáilte Certificate it shall as soon as may be, by notice in writing, inform the person who applied for the Certificate of the refusal and of the reasons therefore.".

Deputy Taylor had an amendment on Committee Stage which would have allowed an appeal to the District Court against refusal by Bord Fáilte to grant a certificate. For reasons explained by myself and other Deputies, particularly Deputies Kelly and Ahern, I could not accept the amendment. However, it would be desirable that where Bord Fáilte refuse to grant a certificate they should give full particulars in writing to the unsuccessful applicant of the reasons for such a refusal. In that way the applicant would be left in no doubt as to what he would have to do before making a fresh application. This amendment proposes accordingly.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 5:

In page 7, between lines 10 and 11, to insert the following:

"(5) In the event of a refusal by the Board, of any application for a Bord Fáilte Certificate to grant the said certificate, an appeal against that decision by the Board shall lie and the suit of the applicant to the Circuit Court.".

On Committee Stage my amendment said that in the event of a refusal of an application for a Bord Fáilte certificate an appeal would lie at the suit of the applicant to the District Court and that amendment was debated. I have thought about it very carefully and, if anything, my view is reinforced that an appeal on this issue is essential. As I indicated at that time, the reality of what is involved is that an inspector appointed by Bord Fáilte will carry out the inspection and on him, and on him alone, will rest a very important decision, possibly involving the livelihood of many people. I am given to understand that if certain restaurants do not get the special certificate, they will have to close because they will not be in a position to compete with nearby restaurants which have this licence. I was told that by a person who runs a restaurant. That is reality. The granting of this certificate will make a very big difference to the restaurant trade, we all know that.

There are decisions of fact involved here. The inspector will be an employee of a semi-State body. There could be some bias involved. He might not like the politics of the person running the restaurant. He may have a personal view about the particular restaurant, or his standards may be exceptionally high or exceptionally difficult. He may decide, in his view, that the restaurant does not measure up. It is fair enough that any person should have a view on whether a restaurant measures up to his standards, but let us look at some of the matters of fact. An inspector will have to determine whether the restaurant provides a high standard of catering, for example. This is an area where the standard might slip one day and not on another, and one person might have one standard of catering, while another person would take another view.

Another criterion is that the restaurant is well furnished. The inspector might take the view that the restaurant is not well furnished but the owner might take the view that it is well furnished and that he should get the special restaurant licence. Will such an important decision be taken by a civil servant and that will be the end of the matter so far as the applicant is concerned?

Admittedly, under the Minister's amendment, for which I am grateful and which goes some way towards resolving the matter, but not far enough, the inspector is now obligated to give the reasons for his refusal. If minor matters only are involved, that might be of help, but there could be major matters involved. It could be that the furnishings in the restaurant do not measure up to the inspector's standards and he will not recommend that Bord Fáilte grant the special restaurant licence. Trying to measure up to the inspector's standards might involve the restaurant owner in considerable expenditure, which he might not be able to meet. The reality might be that while the restaurant owner would maintain — and others might agree with him — that his restaurant had reached the required standard, there would be nothing he could do about the inspector's refusal to grant the licence and his livelihood could be at risk.

Issues of fact are a person's appreciation of whether furnishings are of sufficiently high standard, whether the staff are competent, whether the restaurant is comfortable and so on.

Issues of fact are determined by tribunals and courts every day of the week and can be appealed, and very often their decisions are overturned. District Justices, for example, hear evidence on matters of fact and come to a decision, doing the best they can in the circumstances, but very often their decisions are appealed to the Circuit Court where a rehearing takes place and evidence of fact is given again. It is by no means unusual that the Circuit Court judge takes an entirely different view of the facts and overturns the decision of the lower court. The same may apply when a Circuit Court decision is appealed to the High Court.

Yet we are saying here that this inspector's findings of fact, possibly determining a person's livelihood, are special and that no appeals tribunal, be it the District Court or the Circuit Court, could possibly hold, for whatever reason, well intentioned or otherwise, that he formed a wrong view on those facts. It is entirely unjust that so important a decision should rest on the decision, which cannot be appealed, of one civil servant. This matter is far too important to leave in his hands, and in his hands alone. As I said, this could mean the difference between a person's livelihood and the loss of his livelihood because the requirements put forward by the inspector could be beyond the financial means of the applicant.

In the interests of justice it is essential on this issue, as it is on virtually all other issues of importance, that an appeals procedure should be provided. I would prefer the appeals procedure to be the District Court, as it was in my amendment on Committee Stage but I understand that, according to Standing Orders, I cannot table my Report Stage amendment in the same form. That is why I put in the Circuit Court, the court given the function under section 8 of dealing with the application. I believe it would be wrong to leave the matter solely in the hands of one person who might get it wrong on some occasions with disastrous consequences for many people.

I ask the House to accept this amendment.

I was always under the impression that anybody had the right to appeal a decision. The Minister might brief me on this point, since I am not in the legal profession.

Being in the licensed trade, I am fully aware of what we are discussing today — the granting of facilities to sell intoxicating liquor in properly conducted restaurants approved by Bord Fáilte. Is Deputy Taylor talking about fast food joints, fish and chip shops or take-aways? There are standards laid down for the selling of intoxicating liquor in the ordinary public house and in hotels, and these standards must be adhered to. We are subject to regulations from health boards, local authorities and fire laws. Meath County Council get reports every two or three months on the number of inspections carried out on licensed premises, the number of prosecutions, if necessary, the stipulations in regard to these inspections and so on. We must adhere to certain standards.

It is nonsense to state that the granting of a licence will depend on the humour or the behaviour of some inspector who visits a restaurant or a public house and that if they do not meet his standards, their licence will be taken from them. Let us call a spade a spade and deal with the matter we are discussing, which is the granting of special licences to restaurants which have reached a specific standard.

As on Committee Stage, I support in principle the thrust of Deputy Taylor's amendment and hope that the Minister will see the fairness of it and the reasons behind it. The Workers' Party support it if for no reason other than that, in all areas of licensing in the vintners' restaurant trade or industry, recourse to the courts is used. It is in part employed in the Bill itself in terms of the original application for a licence. In all other areas of law where applications for licences are considered, for example, for guns, public service vehicles, betting shops, in which a superintendent of the Garda Síochána has a function and duty at first stage, appeal is universally available for review of the decision of that officer, as an administrator, to the District Court. That is so for the very fundamental constitutional reason that, in all areas of administrative law, there must be fairness of procedure. I put it to the Minister that it is a constitutional requirement that may well raise its head in the context of this Bill if this issue is not addressed.

The absence of the right of appeal to, or review by, a higher authority of the initial decision by An Bord Fáilte may well smack of administrative unfairness and have constitutional implications. I should like to hear whether the Minister or his officials have considered this aspect, particularly where that decision when taken, even on the best founded reasons and best information, results in or amounts to the denial of some proprietorial or property right. That aspect has been touched upon by Deputy Taylor. The effective absence of this certificate will lead to a restaurant owner not being able to get a special restaurant licence. That will have very strong repercussions on the trade. This is undeniable and that fact can be established without difficulty. For that reason this is an amendment that should be supported.

Like Deputy Taylor, I would much prefer if recourse were to the District Court which is the quickest, most effective and least costly arena. That cannot be achieved by Deputy Taylor in his amendment but I would invite the Minister, if he accepts it as being necessary or desirable, when the Bill goes to the Seanad to consider bringing the amendment back in the original form suggested by Deputy Taylor on Committee Stage.

A licence is cheap enough.

I am pleased enough with what the Minister has brought forward here. I do not accept the fears expressed by Deputy Taylor that an individual could have a grudge against an applicant, perhaps for political reasons. I cannot see a letter being sent out from Bord Fáilte refusing a certificate because the applicant is a member of the Fine Gael Party or Fianna Fáil Party. As was stated on the last occasion, there are certain functions which have to be entrusted to qualified professional people. It would be dangerous to insinuate that there are people employed in bodies such as Bord Fáilte who would be vindictive to the extent of not granting a certificate, thereby depriving the applicant of a special restaurant licence. I think it was Deputy Kelly who mentioned on the last occasion that with every certificate refused there will be an appeal now to the Circuit Court. A fish and chipper, for which it was never intended to grant a special restaurant licence, on receipt of a refusal will appeal now to the Circuit Court.

Fair play to them.

We are trying to set standards here. We are trying to do the thing properly. The reputation and records of Bord Fáilte show that they do their job professionally. With the greatest respect to our colleagues who are members of the Judiciary, they are highly——

(Interruptions.)

I will let Deputy McCartan speak in a moment, if he does not mind. I do not want to hear the Deputy waffling on in the background. If he has something to say, let him say it.

Deputy McCartan has a tendency to interfere when other speakers are contributing. It is noteworthy that Deputy McCartan is not very receptive to such interruptions from anybody else. May we have Deputy Barrett, without any interruptions from anybody please?

I am quite satisfied that the staff of Bord Fáilte, from the most senior to the most junior, are as well qualified——

Hear, hear.

——to judge the situation. With the greatest respect to the Judiciary, if we ask a Circuit Court judge to make a decision, will he leave his court to examine the premises and say, for example, that the decision of Bord Fáilte was correct, that the chair cushions are too hard or whatever? That is not the function of the Judiciary. They are there to do a different job. Professional people are employed by Bord Fáilte. It can be built into the regulations, if so wished, that there is a right of a senior official to visit the premises if the inspector has produced a negative report. That is happening at the moment in other areas.

When grants were still available, others had the experience that when an application was made an inspector might decide that, for example, the windows were not in need of replacement and the person would not be entitled to the grant. I have come across a case where three inspectors were sent to visit the premises as a result of an appeal, right up to the senior inspector. I do not know if a judge sitting in the Circuit Court or the District Court would be any better qualified to take such a decision. It is a dangerous principle.

I would go along with the Minister's amendment because it would be obligatory to state the reasons for a refusal. That goes down in writing and gives people the right to pursue the matter when what is stated in writing is not accurate. Once the reasons are put down in writing, any responsible agency, be it Bord Fáilte or a similar State body, would be very careful about making a negative decision on an application of this type. Let us not clog up the courts even further with appeals against refusal of a special restaurant licence to the Circuit Court and eventually to the Supreme Court. We are always complaining that the courts cannot deal with the present workload and now we are asking them to take on a further burden when there are other qualified people quite capable of doing the job. My experience is that such people do the job in a fair fashion and adhere to legislation and regulations.

I agree with every word I heard Deputy Barrett say and for the reasons which he gave. I just want to add a few more general reflections here. No modern State could possibly operate if a judicial element, in the strict sense of the word, were injected into Government to administer a function at every stage. There is no more difficult area in law than the demarcation between what is a judicial and what is an administrative function and this is something which will always chafe. There will always be a friction at the edges at these two plates, if I may draw an image from geology. There is always that difficulty of deciding on which side of the line a particular function falls. It is easy to be wrong about these matters, but I would have no doubt that the entrusting of this function to a purely administrative authority without an appeal to a judicial body is perfectly constitutional. I have no misgivings about this but I would have misgivings about the opposite because, as Deputy Barrett says, it would make impossible the work of the board and of any other board saddled with a system like that. It would slow it up and would likely result in bad decisions. As Deputy Barrett says, it should be an honest official trying to achieve decent standards in an area in which he has some technical understanding. I would far sooner trust a person such as this to get a decent level of restaurant service, than a District Court justice or a Circuit Court judge who might be as honest as the day is long but might not know anything about the problems of hygiene in the kitchen. One could not expect a judge to know anything about that.

There is nothing in the legislation to prevent somebody who has been shot down by Bord Fáilte from putting right the things of which the board complained and applying again the following week. I also have no doubt — I see the Minister nodding his head and I hope he will continue to nod — when I say that this amendment with which I agree, and which he has promoted, will not inhibit the board from communicating privately and informally with the applicant before any formal decision is made either to issue or to refuse a certificate, telling the man or woman what is wrong and what needs to be put right before the application can be formally adjudicated upon. My misgivings relate to Bord Fáilte and I do not mean to offend anyone in Bord Fáilte when I say that far from the standards imposed by Bord Fáilte being too severe, if there is a fault at all it is on the other side. I am not alleging that is so but certainly I see establishments with which I have had some passing acquaintence listed in the hotel guide as having three stars or four stars and I would not give them three stars. I am not conscious of having specially noticed failings in the opposite direction. I appreciate Deputy Taylor's anxieties for fair play and justice in putting this amendment down but I would ask him to consider whether if the principle he is arguing for here were applied across the board in administrative areas, the government of the country would be any longer possible.

This is the same amendment as the one rejected by this House on Committee Stage except that "Circuit Court" has now been substituted for "District Court". The same arguments apply here as applied on Committee Stage. Deputy Taylor's amendment does not appear to relate to an appeal on legal grounds to the court but rather seems to envisage that there should be an appeal to the court in relation to a finding by Bord Fáilte as to whether the restaurant in question complied with the requisite standards. A provision of this kind would probably have the effect that there would be an appeal in every case to the Circuit Court against the refusal by the board to grant a certificate. This would mean that the Circuit Court would become an inspecting body in such cases, so as to decide whether the restaurant in question was equipped to provide a high standard of catering or whatever. This would not be an appropriate function for the court. It is clearly a matter that should be left for decision by Bord Fáilte on the basis of the professional expertise available to them.

Most Members of the House would agree that amendment No. 4 goes a long way in meeting the problem here in that the board have to tell applicants what has gone wrong with an application and why an applicant was not successful. There is a lot of merit in what Deputy Kelly said that during the course of consideration of the application the Bord Fáilte representative, before he reports back to the board, would advise the applicant on what should be put right to ensure that the application is successful. It is not fair for anybody in this House to make the sort of case that Deputy Taylor has made, that this one civil servant from Bord Fáilte would go anywhere to meet an intending applicant and if he were in bad humour or had a grudge against a person or type of person, or if there was political bias, it would affect the outcome of the application. I do not accept that. It is not left in the hands of one civil servant or one inspector in Bord Fáilte. It is a decision by Bord Fáilte and it is a grave responsibility. It is not good enough to knock this by saying that there may be one man with a grudge or in a bad mood or who is politically biased. I do not accept that at all. These are very professional people who will not be dictated to by petty humours, moods or grudges. They will do a job for which they are well trained.

I intervene to pose a few questions rather than to come down strongly on one side or the other. Deputy Lynch said that regulations were regulations and that they were clear for everybody to see, but it is the interpretation of regulations with which we are dealing here, the interpretation as to whether the regulations have measured up.

That is the point.

The case that someone for political reasons would come down on one side or the other was not seriously made. However, we must bear in mind that we are dealing with human nature and that one person can come down on one side and another can come down equally heavy on the other side. There is no group of professional or quasi-professional people in this country who differ so much or who are assessed so differently by the general public with whom they come into contact as health inspectors. Even Deputy Lynch would agree that some health inspectors are so utterly unreasonable as to be unbelievable. Deputy Kelly says that because the judge is not a cook, a chef or a head chambermaid he is not in a position to judge. A judge hears cases every day about aeroplanes, Swiss watches, medical negligence and so on. He is not an authority on any of those things but he can hear evidence.

I agree it will be the exception rather than the rule to deny a person who has been refused a certificate the right of appeal to some judicial tribunal. Fools rush in where angels fear to thread and far be it for me to contradict Deputy John Kelly, not as a constitutional lawyer but as a retired mountainy attorney. I would not be so sure that some court might not some day say that this is unconstitutional and that the person has the right of access to some judicial tribunal or another. I will not be voting if this comes to a vote because I understand that my party take one view and I will not be voting. If a person is refused a bookmaker's licence or a certificate of personal fitness to conduct the business of bookmaking, he can go to the court. There are umpteen other professions where licences are required and they have the right of appeal to a court. I would be happy if the person who is refused a certificate had the right to appeal to the court. If it is granted indirectly, there will be the right to object, if not at the granting, then at the ensuing court. Therefore, if one can object to the granting of a licence one should also be able to object to the refusal to grant one.

Let me say that I can appreciate the principle which Deputy Taylor is trying to push here which is the principle of fairness particularly where it is related to somebody's livelihood. Deputy Fitzpatrick has said he believed that an unreasonable decision would be the exception rather than the rule but I think we have to look at the effects this amendment, if accepted, would have. I believe that if there was an automatic right of appeal to the Circuit Court many spurious claims could be made and invited by virtue of there being a chance of overturning the decision of Bord Fáilte. I go along entirely with Deputy Barrett and the Minister when they say that Bord Fáilte are the proper authority in this case, and my understanding of what the Minister said on Committee Stage was that the regulations to be issued by the Minister for Tourism and Transport would be extremely comprehensive and little discretion would be left to the Bord Fáilte inspector. It would be almost as if he would have a checklist to go through and if complied with, the discretion which the Bord Fáilte inspector would have would be nil.

We will come to an amendment later which deals with whether the regulations would be made but if they are made and are comprehensive there would be no need to safeguard against unreasonable behaviour on the part of an inspector. In any case we have at present and will continue to have an appeals procedure and any improper action taken by the board or an inspector of the board can be appealed against to the courts. I would not favour automatic appeal against any decision taken by an inspector.

I have listened to the contributions which have been made with care and attention but I have not been convinced by their arguments. Deputy Colley said that it would be almost as if the inspector would have to go through a checklist but that is not so. It would not be a case of checking whether there are three switches in a hall or a 60 watt bulb in the bathroom but objective decisions would have to be made. The crucial decisions would be made by the inspector and not Bord Fáilte. He will make a recommendation and Bord Fáilte will act on it. Objective decisions would have to be made on the basis of the furnishings, the comfort of the seating, standards of catering, standards of hygiene and the experience of the staff. These would have to be looked at and a decision made. A substantial discretionary element must be involved and it is on that basis that I have moved this amendment.

The question of unreasonable behaviour might arise but leaving that aside this is a question of the view which would be taken from a particular set of facts. I think it was Deputy Kelly who said that these people are very professional. They ought to be very professional and I am sure they are, but so what? Judges are very professional people, yet their decisions can be appealed. Just because a Circuit Court judge is a professional person does not mean he cannot take the wrong view. They do take the wrong views all the time and High Court judges overrule them. They are also human and can take a wrong view on occasion. I do not accept that there would be a flood of appeals to the Circuit Court. It is far too expensive a procedure to take an appeal to the Circuit Court in this day and age and to retain a solicitor, a barrister and a professional assessor who would have to give evidence to the court. As Deputy Fitzpatrick rightly pointed out, that is the way it would be dealt with and the court would then make up its mind. There would be no flood of appeals on this issue any more than there is an appeal on every decision which the District Court makes or the Circuit Court makes or the High Court makes or any of the other tribunals make. Of course, there are appeals from time to time but there is no reason to suppose that the proportion of appeals on this issue would be any higher.

Deputy Lynch made the point that standards must be adhered to. Deputy Fitzpatrick rightly took him up on that point and gave the same response I was going to give. We are all agreed that standards must be adhered to and that standards are very important but what we are talking about is the decision which would be made on whether those standards have in fact been met in a particular case. That is the issue and on that issue people's views can vary even with the best will in the world.

Obtaining a Bord Fáilte certificate is a condition precedent to getting a special restaurant licence. It is the first hurdle which would have to be jumped. According to the scheme of things it seems that these hurdles would have to be jumped. The first is the obtaining of the Bord Fáilte certificate followed by the Circuit Court application and finally the issuing of the licence by the Revenue Commissioners. If one does not get over the first hurdle of obtaining the Bord Fáilte certificate they are out and would not get before the Circuit Court.

If the Circuit Court is such a non-body so far as this issue is concerned why are applicants going to be put through the Circuit Court hoop as well as the Bord Fáilte hoop? Why should we leave it open for the Circuit Court to decide if an objection is received as to whether premises are unfit? Under section 8 the Circuit Court would have to be satisfied, and reach a decision on the facts, that the premises are fit or unfit if someone objects. I thought the Circuit Court was not involved here and no judicial decision was involved. Therefore, how is it that having gone through the Bord Fáilte hoop one would still have to go to the Circuit Court and argue that the premises are unfit or inconvenient? How is the Circuit Court judge going to decide on that? Is he going to have to visit the premises? Of course not. He would decide it on the evidence provided by professional people in the same way as all other cases are decided.

Deputy Barrett made the point that a judge would have to walk into every premises, and Deputy Fitzpatrick has adequately dealt with that point. I can only re-emphasise what he said and that is that the judge would hear evidence on the suitability of the premises and on the facilities of that restaurant. This is not comparable to the payment of a grant, as Deputy Barrett has said. This is very different from a person applying for a grant. Where a person applies for a grant their livelihood is not at stake. Second, this is something which is given if certain circumstances are met and a person would not incur expense unless they knew they were going to get the grant. This is very different in that the procedure for obtaining these licences is being laid down by the Oireachtas. It would be of crucial importance to a person's livelihood whether they obtained one and that case is very different from that of a person not getting a grant for his windows. The Minister said this was a grave responsibility on the part of the inspector who would be sent down by Bord Fáilte. That is the very point; it is a grave responsibility on a very serious and crucial matter. For that reason I urge as strongly as I possibly can that so grave a responsibility should not be left to the final decision of one person without an applicant having recourse to an appeal. Appeals on matters of importance like this, affecting people's livelihoods, are endemic, basic to our scheme of things, not only in the judicial but in the administrative field as well where there are appeals procedures laid down. For example, there are procedures laid down for appeals against inspectors of taxes' assessments to the Appeal Commissioners, an appeal against a local authority decision on a planning matter to An Bord Pleanála and so on. Also, administrative decisions are appealable in virtually all cases of substance and importance.

What is so special about this? Why is there this determination to leave so important a matter, one involving, as the Minister has said, so grave a responsibility, in the hands of this one person that could have such far-reaching effects on the lives of people seeking one of these special restaurant licences? I do not understand it. It constitutes a departure from the general principle we have established here on both judicial and administrative matters.

Acceptance of this amendment is crucial to the fair operation of the provisions of this Bill.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 10; Níl, 68.

  • Bell, Michael.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matthew.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Collins, Gerard.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary T.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera Síile.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm Michael.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • MacSharry, Ray.
  • Mooney, Mary.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William Gerard.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • Power, Paddy.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Swift, Brian.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G. V.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies Howlin and Stagg; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Briscoe.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 7, line 33, after "situated" to insert "or any inhabitant of the parish or health authority within the meaning of the Health Act in whose functional area the restaurant is situated".

I put down this amendment on Committee Stage and the Minister explained to me, and he was quite right in what he said, that persons have a right to object. However, I thought about this again and section 10, to which this amendment refers, states:

Where application is made for the renewal of a special restaurant licence, the superintendent of the Garda Síochána for the Garda district in which the restaurant, the subject of the application, is situated may, without prejudice to any other ground of objection available to him under the Acts, object to the renewal of the licence on the following ground, namely, that the premises concerned have not been bona fide and solely used as a restaurant within the meaning of this Act...

This section picks out a specific objection as distinct from other objections that can be made under the licensing Acts. The section states that the superintendent of the Garda Síochána "may, without prejudice to any other ground of objection available to him under the Acts..." so that he, like an inhabitant of a parish or a member of a health authority, may object under the licensing Acts to the renewal of a licence. This section is about the renewal of a special restaurant licence and a specific ground for objecting is that it has not been bona fide and solely used as a restaurant. I am afraid that the courts' interpretation of this section would be that only a superintendent of the Garda Síochána could go into court and object on this specific ground. I recognise that one can object to the renewal of a licence under the various Acts, but this is picking out a specific ground on which one can object to the renewal of a special restaurant licence, that is that it is not a bona fide restaurant. I would be afraid that, if a member of the public objected on the grounds that a restaurant was applying for the renewal of a special restaurant licence, he would not be heard because the Act specifies that only a superintendent of the Garda Síochána may object on those grounds. Why else would that section be there? What would be the need for the wording "without prejudice to any other ground of objection available to him under the Acts"? Why is the section worded in that way?

I do not think it is that important, but it is worth while to avoid any possible confusion at a later stage when the Act is interpreted by the courts. It would be worth while including my wording in that section which I have copied from another Act: "any inhabitant of the parish or health authority within the meaning of the Health Act in whose functional area the restaurant is situated". In that way we would be making it quite clear that either a superintendent of the Garda Síochána, an inhabitant of the parish or the health authority in whose area the restaurant is situated, may go to court to object to the renewal of a special restaurant licence on the grounds that the restaurant is not a bona fide restaurant. It is worth while including those few words in the section.

I recognise that any member of the public can object to the renewal of a licence on various grounds, such as, that the holder of the licence is not a fit person to hold the licence, or that the premises are not suitable, but according to this only the superintendent of the Garda Síochána may object on the grounds that the premises concerned have not been bona fide and solely used as a restaurant within the meaning of this Bill. That would be dangerous because others should be able to join with the superintendent of the Garda Síochána, if necessary, to object on the grounds that the premises have not been used solely as a restaurant.

I agree in general with what Deputy Barrett said. The fact that section 10 specifically gives the superintendent of the Garda district in which the restaurant is situated the right to object to the renewal of the special restaurant licence on this ground could be construed to exclude the right of any other person who is entitled under the Acts to object. It could be construed as preventing any other person from objecting on this ground. It would probably be worth while to include Deputy Barrett's wording in the amendment.

I would like to draw the attention of Deputies to section 3 of the Bill, the effect of which is that it will be construed together with the other liquor licensing Acts, and also to section 7 (2) by virtue of which a special restaurant licence will be deemed to be a non-licence for the purpose of the Finance Act of 1910. One effect of this is that the existing power to object to the grant of a court certificate which is required before a liquor licence is renewed will apply also in relation to special restaurant licences although, under the licensing Acts as they stand, there are some restrictions on the categories who may object to the initial grant of a liquor licence. Any member of the community can object to the renewal certificate and this will be the case in relation to the special restaurant licences.

What about this ground, the bona fide use as a restaurant?

No, not on that ground. In the ordinary way such objection may be made on the grounds of the character of the licensee or the manner in which the premises were conducted during the year or the unfitness of the premises. I am advised there is sufficiently wide scope under the existing law for objection to renewal in these cases. Anybody may object. I understand that, where a person is making the application for a special licence, the same provisions are there for anybody to object as are there in the case of anybody making application for another sort of licence. There is very little between us but I am told that what we have is sufficiently good.

If that is the case, I cannot understand why the section was put in at all.

I listened attentively to Deputy Barrett's submission to the Minister. I do not want to delay the proceedings, but I am at a loss. I do not understand why the Minister introduced this section into the Bill. Why did he use the term "bona fide" at all?

This is Report Stage. We dealt with this in detail on Committee Stage.

Is the amendment withdrawn?

I do not think it is important enough to put it to a vote. If the Minister feels there is adequate power for ordinary members of the public to object on any grounds I am happy enough. It is just that I am at a loss to know why this section was put in and why the right to object is restricted to the superintendent of the Garda Síochána. The section is quite specific. It says that only a superintendent may object on those grounds and he may do so without prejudice to any other grounds of objection available to him under the Acts, which implies that the section recognises that under other Acts the superintendent may object on other grounds also. This section restricts the right of objection to the superintendent of the Garda Síochána. It does not make sense.

If it helps a situation — it will not make it any better but it will do no harm — I would be prepared to put it in.

I think it is worth while putting it in. Thank you.

Is amendment No. 6 in the name of Deputy Seán Barrett agreed?

It is not agreed.

Shall I put the question then?

That is not necessary. I am just signalling the fact that I do not think it is a good amendment.

Deputies McCartan and Taylor are dissenting.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments Nos. 7 and 8 in the name of Deputies Anne Colley and Seán Barrett are related, so I suggest we debate them together.

I move amendment No. 7:

In page 7, line 44, to delete "may" and substitute "shall".

I will be brief because the rationale behind this amendment has been well laid out on Committee Stage. The regulations in question in this section may be issued by the Minister for Tourism and Transport. I understand the Minister for Justice has said it is intended these regulations will issue before certificates are granted under this Bill. The Minister has indicated further evidence of his wish to do so in another amendment but it seems to me that we can still ask that the word "shall" be substituted for the word "may" because the Minister is still not under any obligation to issue these regulations. There is an alternative available in the Bill which lays down what Bord Fáilte must look for in the absence of regulations. In order to copperfasten the fact that we have specific regulations, we should insist that the Minister for Tourism and Transport "shall" make these regulations.

It is crucial to the operation of the Bill that these regulations, in detail, are issued. It is not a matter about which I would go to the wall but it is very important and I know that the Minister regards the issuing of these regulations as important. If that is the case I ask him to accede to the proposed change.

Section 12, as it stands, empowers the Minister for Tourism and Transport to make restaurant standard regulations. The effect of these amendments would be to oblige him to make those regulations. This specific point was raised when the Bill was being drafted and the advice received from a senior officer in the Attorney General's office was that it was not appropriate for a statute to impose an obligation on the Minister concerned to make regulations to act in such circumstances. It was not appropriate or necessary to put the word "shall", the word "may" would suffice. I am advised by the Attorney General's office that it is a legal tecnical point. I repeat for the benefit of Deputy Colley and Deputy Barrett that the intention is that these regulations will be made before Part II of the Bill is brought into operation.

Regarding the proposed amendment to section 12 (2) it is not clear that this would add to the sense of the subsection as it stands. The effect of subsection (2) is that regulations may make provision for all, or any, of the specified matters. To say that the regulations shall make provision for all or any of the specified matters would not, it appears, significantly alter the scope of the provision. I am advised by the technical expertise available to me in the parliamentary draftsman's office that it is not necessary. We are all in agreement with what must be done and what we want to see done and I am advised there is sufficient provision here to ensure that that will happen.

I am happy with the Minister's assurance.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 8 not moved.

I move amendment No. 9.

In page 8, between lines 39 and 40, to insert the following:

"(4) In the event of a decision by the Board to cancel a Bord Fáilte Certificate pursuant to this section an appeal against that decision by the holder of the special restaurant licence shall lie to the Circuit Court.".

This amendment refers to the cancellation of a special restaurant licence by Bord Fáilte and would give the right to a person who held such a licence, which was cancelled, to appeal it to the Circuit Court.

We seek to draw a distinction between the objection to the licensing end of the licence and to the restaurant end of the licence. In the case of the licensing end of the licences, the court procedure applies. The House has now accepted an amendment to provide that any member of the public can put in an objection on the grounds that a restaurant is no longer bona fide used as a restaurant. That opinion by a casual member of the public can bring about a whole court procedure in the District Court and, on appeal, in the Circuit Court. On the other hand we provide that on the restaurant side where some of the matters at least would be in common between the two procedures, in this case there is no appeal and Bord Fáilte alone through their inspector would be in a position to cancel the licence. If that is done there is no appeal from that procedure. There seems to be a grave variation in import between what a restaurant owner would have to face in the event of a problem under the licensing end, or under section 10 and under the restaurant end. It seems totally logical. The same arguments which I adduced in relation to the earlier section giving right of appeal to the Circuit Court would apply with equal force on this particular issue.

When a licence has been granted and is up and running, if the restaurant has fallen below standard, it is quite in order for the board to come along and make a decision to cancel the licence. That is fair enough but it is equally reasonable to provide that that decision to cancel the licence and cancel that person's livelihood be subject to an appeal to the Circuit Court. That seems to be a reasonable provision and it seems to be the other side of the coin to section 10 and the provisions under the Licensing Act under which there is an appeal procedure where the licence is called into question.

I want to refer to something which relates to this amendment. It was mentioned on Committee Stage that there was reference in section 10 to the District Court and that there was not any specific jurisdiction given to the District Court in the Bill. The Minister undertook to investigate the renewal of licences and to come back on Report Stage. Perhaps in his reply the Minister might refer to it.

Deputy Taylor proposes that there should be an appeal to the Circuit Court against the decision by the board to cancel its certificate. Clearly, this would mean that there would be an appeal in almost every case to the court where Bord Fáilte found that standards had not been met or maintained in the restaurant concerned. This would mean that the court would have to involve itself in the question of whether furnishings, catering and equipment were up to standard in the restaurant concerned so that, in effect, the Circuit Court would take over the functions of Bord Fáilte. Apart from the question of whether this would be an appropriate function for the court, the result would make it impossible to implement effectively the relevant provisions relating to the special restaurant licences.

In any case under section 13, the holder of a restaurant certificate which no longer complies with the standards specified in the regulations, in effect gets a second chance to bring his premises into compliance with the regulations. Thus, where it appears to Bord Fáilte that a restaurant's standards have fallen to the point where it no longer complies with the regulations, the inspector must notify the holder of the certificate of the steps that must be taken within a specified period to bring his premises back into compliance with the regulations. Only if those steps have not been taken in the specified time would the certificate be cancelled.

Accordingly, I cannot accept this amendment. I should add that the applicant for, or the holder of, a special restaurant licence will continue to have available to him any recourse to the court which is available to him under the existing law in relation to the activities or decisions of the board.

I would like to support the amendment. I am not impressed by the Minister's arguments that we are putting an unusual burden on the court and that we are asking the court to be, in effect, the assessor of the standards of the restaurant concerned. Courts are asked to make assessments in a whole variety of areas of life every day of the week. They have to adjudicate when bureaucracy and the citizen come into conflict. The amendment is asking that the court would be the adjudicator in the case of a conflict.

Let us consider the reality of what is concerned here. The section talks about Bord Fáilte refusing a certificate or Bord Fáilte serving this notice or that notice requiring work to be done. Of course, what happens is that an official of Bord Fáilte will be doing all this and he will be subject to human fallibility, bias and prejudice. It is possible that this will happen, and traditionally the system provides that the court is where a citizen goes for redress if he feels he is badly done by in any area of the administration of the State. Consequently, if the law provides for this new system of licensing, based on the special restaurant certificate, it immediately gives that certificate a high commercial value. In this case we are creating something of considerable commercial value, the special restaurant certificate and licence, and charging the person who gets it a sum of £3,000. I presume that if a restaurant certificate is cancelled by Bord Fáilte and if the owner subsequently has to apply for a new one — as opposed to a renewal — he will have to fork out another £3,000.

That is not so.

It is not a question of renewal, this is in a case where it has been cancelled by Bord Fáilte, but if the person involved puts his house in order he will have to get a new licence and, presumably, pay another £3,000.

An independent arbitration forum should be set up to adjudicate on any issue of contention between a citizen and State bureaucracy as represented by the official of Bord Fáilte who will be charged with inspecting and making a decision on the suitability of the premises. That is what the courts are for and I am not impressed by the Minister's argument that the court will assess the suitability of the premises. Courts have to make such assessments every day of the week in a whole variety of areas; it is part and parcel of a court's business to make such adjudications. It is very important to have an appeal process to an independent arbitration — which is what the court would be — in a case where a citizen has a grievance against an act of bureaucracy. If there is no case and if Bord Fáilte are clearly in the right, then the court will obviously see that but, if there is a doubt, it should be adjudicated upon by an independent authority. Do not let us have a situation where the body depending on the doubt is one of the parties with a vested interest in the matter. I ask the Minister to reconsider his attitude towards this amendment.

I should like to clear up this whole issue in regard to appeal, inspection and standards. Standards and regulations must be complied with. Public houses, lounges, hotels and restaurants must comply with certain standards and these places are subject to inspection by local authorities and health boards. If they have not complied with the standards laid down, an objection is lodged, especially in the case of a public house, with the local superintendent. He has the right to object and his objection is usually upheld. Anybody who wishes to improve their business should seek the advice of the local authority, the health board and Bord Fáilte, whose advice is freely given. The applicant may then carry out the works as advised by the authority. That is the normal procedure and it is the advice I, as a businessmen, give to anybody who is seeking a licence. Over the last ten years, local authorities, health boards and Bord Fáilte have taken steps to improve the outlets referred to and standards in public houses, hotels and restaurants, while in some case leaving a certain amount to be desired, have improved tremendously. If conditions are not up to standard, there is no point in appealing to a court.

I support in principle the idea behind this amendment, the right of recourse by a restaurateur to a court by way of appeal against a decision in regard to regulations. In the analagous or similar amendment moved earlier by Deputy Taylor, I indicated support on the basis that it was the general order of things in the area of licensing law and which exists right across the board in many different instances such as gun, PSV and betting licences. It is remarkable that Deputies might object to the idea of judges being asked to adjudicate on matters pertaining to restaurants when we ask them to adjudicate on any and every issue arising in civil life.

In regard to regulations governing the condition of buildings, there are many instances of precedent where a local authority tells an owner-occupier of property that it is in a dangerous condition and orders him to put it right. It is up to the owner-occupier to appeal that directive to the District Court to adjudicate on whether he is complying properly with the requirements under statute.

The same applies with regard to fire regulations where the fire officer can compel someone to carry out works. The same is true in regard to planning or building by-law regulations which are enforced by the local authority. There is access to the District or the Circuit Court by the property owner. I do not agree with Deputy Kelly's views on this matter. It is not a question of the invasion of the administrative workings of the State by the courts. It is leaving open the right of appeal which exists, under the Constitution, in regard to all forms of litigation. There is a body of law which says that, where one comes down to administrative decisions and those of the civil authority that impinge on people's rights of property, entitlement or whatever, there should be a higher authority to review or oversee such decisions. Deputies said that an individual member of Bord Fáilte might be capricious. I do not seek to impugn decisions that might be made by a particular individual and it is not correct to say that it would be a decision of the board. The principles of administrative fairness are based on recognising that there should be a right of review by a higher authority, one independent of the person or persons who originally make the decision. For that reason the introduction of such a concept into the legislation is desirable. In the case of licences issued to restaurateurs we are seeking to cut in on the trade mid-term and impose conditions.

As I understand it the Circuit Court is the vehicle for issuing a certificate which enables the applicant to approach the Revenue Commissioners for a licence. The decision of the judicial authority is crucial to the process. If Bord Fáilte reach a conclusion that a licence should be cancelled mid-term, I wonder if that represents an interference with the judicial order or judicial decision. From what authority in law will the decision of Bord Fáilte emanate? Will the restaurant certificate continue to exist in such a case? There is authority available to the fire and other building regulators to close premises or carry out works themselves, but I am not certain of the status of the Circuit Court decision if Bord Fáilte intervene and decide that a restaurant must cease trading because it is not complying with their regulations. I invite the Minister to respond to that query, if permitted to do so by the Chair.

Why should we have regulations at all?

It is obvious that views on this issue are divided. There was a division of views in regard to that last section which dealt with the refusal to grant a certificate in the first place. There has been a lot of talk about the possibility of difficult inspectors from Bord Fáilte causing people problems. This section lays down certain requirements and an inspector must put in writing what he finds objectionable. That inspector must invite the restaurant owner to rectify the problems within a specified period. However, we must remember that there are difficult restaurant owners, people who will not conform to certain standards. The difficult people do not all hang out at Bord Fáilte.

I fail to understand why we cannot accept that officials of Bord Fáilte are better qualified in most cases than a Circuit Court judge or a district justice to decide such issues. We must remember that the provision is designed to improve standards and get people to comply with the law. If it is not retained people will not comply with the law and will be content to wait for the annual licensing court to answer any objections. In my view it is better to ask inspectors to give notice to restaurant owners to carry out certain improvements within a specific period or otherwise they would lose their licences. The alternative is to wait until the annual licensing court when Bord Fáilte could object to the renewal of a licence. That would cause confusion and a great deal more expense for the restaurant owner.

I do not see Bord Fáilte officials setting out to get at people. They have enough on their plate. In the case of an application for planning permission if a health inspector decides that an area of ground is not suitable for a septic tank, planning permission will be refused and that will be the end of the matter. As Deputy Taylor is aware, that happens regularly and there are very few appeals to the District Court or the Circuit Court on the basis that the ground is capable of taking a septic tank. Professional standards must apply and we must depend on professional expertise. We have been carrying on in that way here for the past 60 years and in 99 per cent of cases the inspector is right.

We appoint directors to Bord Fáilte to see to it that individuals in the company behave themselves. There are superiors there, a chief executive and many inspectors and I do not see one member of the staff of Bord Fáilte being able to get massive powers for himself to decide that he will not grant a licence because he does not like the colour of the eyes of the applicant. I do not think any inspector will cancel a licence without good reason. That individual will be obliged to set down in writing the defects that need to be attended to. Such officials are as qualified to make a rational decision in regard to such premises as any judge sitting in a court.

If we do not have this provision Bord Fáilte officials will be obliged to wait until the annual licensing court to object to the renewal of a licence. Restaurant owners will not get any advance warning of what is required under section 13. There is another side to this argument than talking about possible monsters in Bord Fáilte. We will be leaving it to professional people to see to it that restaurant owners comply with the regulations. It will be our job to consider the regulations when they are brought before us and if we consider them unreasonable or unfair we can seek changes. We should not be endeavouring to clog up our courts with appeals under this system. If we have an appeal procedure we may get a difficult restaurateur disagreeing with the Bord Fáilte official and appealing to the court. We could get restaurant owners appealing simply because they did not like the Bord Fáilte inspector. I cannot support the amendment.

At one level, taken in isolation, this appears to be an innocent type of measure, that we will invest a power in Bord Fáilte inspectors and that will be the end of the story. It seems to be an innocuous measure but there is a lot at stake here. Serious issues are involved and this trend has been growing in our society over the years. It nibbles away at a very important democratic principle which is, and must be, a basic principle of every democracy. Indeed, it is enshrined in An Bunreacht, and rightly so. Before important decisions affecting the lives and livelihoods of our people are made, they must have access to independent tribunals established by An Bunreacht, namely our courts of justice. There is a great desire by many to erode and take away that basic democratic right. That is why we find that we have a plethora of non-judicial, Government-appointed, executive staffed, institutions.

I am referring to those faceless tribunals before which one cannot argue one's case. More and more of the important decisions affecting our daily lives are made by such tribunals. This amounts to another straw on the camel's back. Once again we are giving power to a faceless body of men to make dicisions that could affect the livelihoods of many people. An inspector comes down and decisions are made and laws laid down by him as to what is to be and that is it. That basic right established under the Constitution of recourse to the courts is being taken away from people and Deputies, regrettably, are supporting that. They are putting yet another nail in the coffin of that open accessibility to the courts which is, or ought to be, the basic right of every citizen in this State whose livelihood is affected. He should come face to face with the person who is vetting him, be heard and seen and call evidence. An inspector could say that if a place is not completely refurbished at a cost of, perhaps, £10,000, he will close the place down.

I am sorry to have to say that Deputy Barrett totally misunderstands the purport of the amendment. It has nothing to do with denigrating the standards that we are setting for these licences. Of course, standards must be set and must be observed but this amendment is about a different matter altogether. It is about deciding whether those standards have been met and who decides ultimately that they have been met. Is it the man with the brief case and umbrella, sent down from the plush offices of Bord Fáilte, who lords it over the applicant? If he does not pay that £10,000 for refurbishment, the unfortunate person is left with no recourse whatever to our courts which were set up by An Bunreacht.

We are engaged in a very dangerous procedure here. It is symptomatic of an invidious erosion of the rights of citizens, placing their lives and livelihoods more and more in the hands of the executive. The executive love to get all the power they can into their hands and to keep that power away from examination in the cold light of day in a court in the presence of the press who can hear evidence called. They can hear a witness saying on oath that the premises are reasonable, the furnishings are reasonable, the standards are fair and let Bord Fáilte bring in their inspector to say that in his opinion they are not. That is fair enough, but let him answer a few questions on his opinion. he must be asked if he is being reasonable and if he has compared the specific restaurant with another in the next town whose standards perhaps are worse and whose fate was decided by a different inspector. Let the press be present as a protection of the rights of individuals. However, the position is that the inspector comes down and there is no publicity and no answers to questions. He gives his opinion and that is it. There is no judge to decide on the basis of comparison.

How many inspectors will assess the various restaurants? Will there be one, five or ten? Let us assume there are ten. They are human beings, they have different standards, different notions, as to the class of restaurant appropriate for such a licence. Are the Minister and Deputy Barrett telling us today that all these inspectors will be clones one of the other, having precisely the same ideas, precisely the same notions, as to what standards should apply in each restaurant? Is it not likely that a restaurant in county A will be passed on one type of standard because the inspector for that area takes a more moderate, perhaps lenient, view of the standard required for these licences, whereas an inspector in county B might have different notions? He might have very high-class notions and his background might be different. He might think that the seats have to be upholstered in velvet and that the carpet must be three inches deep. There would be no uniformity. On the other hand during an appeal to a court professional persons could give comparable evidence. The restaurants of comparable standard could be named and a divergence of opinion highlighted.

The balancing of standards around the country cannot be achieved by this procedure because there is realy no impartial person making the ultimate decision, as applies in the case of a court. That is where the weakness of this procedure shows itself. It is totally unacceptable to leave this very important matter in the hands of one person, for decision behind closed doors, without being answerable, without having to get into the witness box, take an oath and justify himself. Such a person is making very important decisions. He can say that premises are not up to scratch or up to standard. When people are empowered to make such decisions, they should be answerable to somebody.

Like fire officers or planning inspectors?

To whom are they to be answerable? They should be asked to explain under oath in court why a restaurant in the next town, perhaps worse than the one in question, has been given a licence. Such publicity would not suit the executive. To make comparisons is too much trouble. What is this nonsense about clogging up the courts? Perhaps it is thought that there should not be appeals on anything, that we should just have tribunals, that the Ministers of each Department should set up an officer to decide everything because otherwise it would clog up the courts. That is no answer. If the matter is appropriately a matter for the court — and I say it is — and the courts are provided, as is obligatory under the Constitution, they should be used.

Many of the courts in the High Court have been clogged up for years dealing with other matters and nobody becomes unduly fussed about that. If a matter is appropriate to a court and judge, to say that it will clog up the courts is no answer. If that kind of argument were to be accepted, it would be a bad day for the rights of the individual. It is typical of the line of argument being brought in on this issue. It is a very dangerous principle to be establishing, taking away the basic right of access to the courts. The House should exercise great caution before it would agree to take away that basic right from the individual citizen.

Let me say that——

I am sorry, Deputy Lynch, we cannot make exceptions. Deputy Taylor has concluded. It is not possible now to entertain contributions from anybody. Is Deputy Taylor pressing the amendment? I put the Question: "That the amendment be made."

Amendment put and declared lost.

We come to amendment No. 10. Amendments Nos. 11 and 12 are related. It is proposed, with the agreement of the House, to take amendments Nos. 10, 11 and 12 together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 9, lines 6 and 7, to delete "or between the hours of three o'clock and six o'clock in the afternoon.".

On Committee Stage, I introduced an amendment which was to the same effect as this and it was argued at quite a length. However, it is worth while to bring the matter forward again because there is a principle here which is being missed in this Bill, or will be missed if these amendments are not accepted.

The Bill as it is framed at present prevents those restaurants which apply for and are granted special restaurant licences from serving alcohol between the hours of 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. This is despite the fact that they may be serving a substantial meal. I think we agreed on Committee Stage that the purpose of this part of the Bill is to allow restaurants of a certain type, serving a substantial meal, to provide alcohol with that meal. There is a very strong sense of incongruity in this situation. When this Bill is passed, we will have three types of licence enabling the punter to have a meal during the day with an alcoholic drink. The first is a public house. We are also in this Bill abolishing what was known as the "holy hour". We are now going to allow the public house to serve food, as many of them do, together with drink throughout the day and during the hours between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m.

The existing restaurant licences will also be affected. After this Bill has been passed some restaurants will retain their existing licences and they will be enabled to serve meals, whether substantial or not, and alcohol in the form of wine or other light drinks with this meal. Remarkably enough, the special restaurant licences which are to be granted under this Bill to restaurants of a high quality which serve a substantial meal and which have to meet very stiff regulations and prove on a number of counts that they have reached a very high level of service, are the only restaurants which will not be enabled to serve alcohol between the hours of 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. with a substantial meal.

I make no plea for restaurants which do not serve a substantial meal or for those people who will try to take advantage of the system by sitting around all afternoon in a restaurant without having a meal. I am particularly concerned with the difficulties that this prohibition will present to legitimate restaurants, for instance, those restaurants with a wedding trade with wedding parties coming in regularly after a wedding at 3 p.m. They arrive at the restaurant between 4 p.m. and 4.30 p.m. and they would normally expect to have a sherry reception, but under this Bill they are not entitled to do so. The restaurant cannot serve even wine type drinks to the guests. Generally these restaurants would be of high quality and would serve substantial meals and in all the other circumstances they would wish to obtain special restaurant licences and would wish to serve the public need in that way. It would be unfortunate, and quite unfair, to deprive them of this type of trade. For example, I know restaurants in my own constituency whose business will simply sink if they cannot have this type of licence and continue to serve drink during the afternoon. A great proportion of their trade will be affected. It has been said to me by some restaurant owners that as much as 1,000 hours per year will be affected if this provision is not changed.

It was also mentioned on Committee Stage that there would be very great problems in enforcing the provision not to allow restaurants to serve alcohol between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. Those very enforcement problems bring the law into disrepute, apart altogether from the incongruity of not allowing high class restaurants to serve alcohol when lower class or ordinary restaurants and pubs can serve food and alcohol together all day. The law should not be brought into disrepute unnecessarily. Indeed it should not be brought necessarily into disrepute and we should avoid this if at all possible. This is one of the areas where I believe we can avoid this situation.

I have to ask: what is the rationale behind this proposal? What is the purpose of these prohibitions? It has escaped me even after hearing the debate on Committee Stage. It could be argued that the licensed trade, the pubs themselves, see that they will lose a substantial amount of business. I have made it my business to talk to some publicans about this and they do not believe that is the case. We are talking about two different needs being served. We are talking about substantial meals being served in the afternoon and not simply late night drinking. Those restaurants which have a functions trade would be particularly affected.

I know the Minister fears that the situation may get out of hand. If that is the case, what about the other restaurants which continue to serve wine or the pubs which serve the full range of drinks? I am looking for an extension of hours for quality restaurants serving alcohol with substantial meals. I believe the amendments are reasonable and deal with different situations.

Amendment No. 10 deals with the hours between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on a week day, amendment No. 11 deals with those hours on a Sunday and amendment No. 12 deals with the hours between 3 o'clock in the afternoon and 7 o'clock in the evening on Christmas Day. I would like to outline why I believe amendments Nos. 11 and 12 differ in some way from amendment No. 10.

Amendment No. 11 deals with Sundays and allows for families who go out for a late Sunday lunch to a restaurant and quite legitimately do not wish to rush themselves. Sunday has taken on a leisurely pace for many families. Many people would be in a restaurant at 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. and would reasonably wish to have a leisurely meal together with a bottle of wine, or a glass of beer, or whatever. It is reasonable to allow them to do so. Again it is confining it to these specially designated restaurants — high quality restaurants — and not any hole in the corner restaurants. In fact there would be very few of them. In terms of the whole community the numbers would be quite small.

Amendment No. 12 deals with Christmas Day. It seems to me incongruous that a restaurant which serves Christmas dinner must do so between the hours of 1 p.m. and 3 p.m. As far as I know, most Irish families do not eat their substantial meal on Christmas Day between the hours of 1 p.m. and 3 p.m. and why they should be expected to do so if they are eating in a restaurant is beyond me. It is unreasonable. Most people eat later on Christmas Day and it would be quite reasonable, in fact, to allow restaurants to serve alcohol between 3 p.m. and 7 p.m. only instead of preventing them serving alcohol at this time.

I believe they are reasonable amendments. I do not believe they would affect the licensed trade in any great way, if at all. They are serving a different need and a different trade. Acceptance of these amendments would further a uniformity of approach in licensing regulations, which I think would be welcomed. The general legislation on licensing is acknowledged to be very difficult and very complex and the more we can do, while enacting further legislation, to bring it into line and not make it more complex, the more it would be welcomed by the general public as well as licensees.

Since the debate on Committee Stage I have had second thoughts about this proposal. Like Deputy Colley, I have spoken to a number of people and I have come across a number of restaurateurs who have a wine licence at present and who are dependent to a great extent on wedding receptions for a great portion of their business. They are now faced with the option of either giving up the wine licence in order to get a special restaurant licence, or retaining the wine licence. If they do that they become uncompetitive as a restaurant. Not being able to serve a drink they would not be long in business.

In view of the fact that we have abolished the "holy hour" and that the pubs remain open on week days between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m., I do not think we could be accused of unfair competition if restaurants were to stay open during that period also because all licensed premises would be opened at the same time. It would also help restaurants which cater for wedding receptions. Normally if people get married in the afternoon, which is a common practice now, they arrive at the restaurant at 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. I would ask the Minister to consider amendment No. 10 which refers to weekdays. I believe that quite a number of the restaurants we are talking about will not avail of this extension. They will automatically close at 3 p.m. or 4 p.m. because that is the way they schedule their business, particularly family run restaurants where people have to have a break before the evening session. By doing this we are not being unfair to publicans or hotels because they will be open anyway. We will be protecting jobs in some restaurants which depend on weddings and so on for business. As Deputy Colley has said, between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. when pubs are open it will be difficult for the police to do anything about those who break the law.

In relation to Sundays and Christmas Day, that is a different issue. Sunday is a family day. That may be an old-fashioned view but I will say it anyway because there is not enough mention of the family. I am glad that on Sundays the pubs close at 2 p.m. I am like many other people; I enjoy a pint after a game of golf on a Sunday morning. I am glad that I have to go home at 2 p.m. because otherwise, instead of going to Croke Park with my son I might be tempted to stay on in the pub. All of us need controls and discipline. That may be an old-fashioned thing to say but that is what I believe. Equally, Christmas Day is a family day and it is about children. I do not think children like spending their time in a restaurant while their parents tank themselves up.

This concerns mostly older people.

If people want to go out for a meal and want to bring the children with them, let them do so and let them have a drink with their meal, but we should not put ourselves in the position that if we agree to this on Christmas Day the publicans, the hoteliers and other people will want to compete on an equal basis, will want their premises open on Christmas Day and will not want any break on Sundays. The same argument cannot be used for weekdays because the same licensing laws will apply throughout the afternoon. I would ask the Minister to accept amendment No. 10 in the light of the very valid point put forward by Deputy Colley in relation to those restaurants. I have spoken to some of the people who depend on a wedding trade in the afternoon, and I agree to that provision but I would be slower in agreeing to the provision regarding Sundays and Christmas Day because we would run into difficulties. If the pubs are asked to close between 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. some difficulties would arise in that area. For other reasons I believe it is not a bad thing to have these restrictions. I am in favour of amendment No. 10.

I agree with the amendment which deals with opening hours between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. on weekdays. It is hard to see why this close-down between 3 p.m. and 6 p.m. is imposed by the Act. It is certainly not a time when a restaurant would be abused. It is only people in search of a genuine restaurant, and in search of food, who would avail of it. If a person is travelling between those hours he could travel 50 or 60 miles without finding a place to get a meal. The hotels close at about 2 p.m. and they will not serve a substantial meal again until about 6 p.m. or 6.30 p.m. If people are not in a position to eat at mid-day and if they want to eat before evening, they find themselves in a very difficult position. One of my main objections to the change in the law is that restaurants will be abused. Premises will be licensed as restaurants simply to avail of the sale of intoxicating liquor.

The point that Deputy Colley made about Christmas Day is a very valid point. I am probably of the age group that thinks that people should eat at home on Christmas Day but if they want to eat out they should be able to go to a restaurant after 3 p.m. and have a meal, with liquor served. I cannot see the sense of these provisions. If they were excluded it would encourage what is very badly needed — the small family restaurant which is run by a husband and wife. There are not enough of those premises. These amendments would encourage that and would not be detrimental to the interests that Deputy Michael Lynch is concerned about.

I notice certain favourable indications coming from the Minister. I simply want to indicate my support for the amendments, as I did on Committee Stage. I would ask the Minister to accede to all three amendments. The purpose of the amendments is to bring a degree of uniformity and regularity into the licensing laws. I do not want to get into the area of tourists, but as Deputy Kelly is not here I think I can do so with some degree of expectation that we will not be here for too long talking about that matter. We have to take into account the whole question of policing and the job that would be expected of the Garda Síochána in trying to give some control and effect to the laws. I welcome the amendments. They are sensible. If there is a fear from the publicans' point of view, the Minister has some authority in terms of the fee to be charged as a means of regulating the proliferation or otherwise of the restaurants. I hope these amendments will be acceded to in their entirety.

I thank the Members for their contributions on these amendments. I too have given the matter some thought since we had a discussion last week on Committee Stage. I have listened to a number of people whose views I have found enlightening in this area. Bearing in mind the case put by Deputy Colley, and more importantly the case put by Deputy Seán Barrett, on the amendments generally, we could meet amendment No. 10 put down by Deputy Colley and agree to what is being sought regarding weekdays. With regard to amendment No. 12 which deals with Christmas Day, I agree with the arguments put forward by Deputy Barrett, as indeed do I agree with the arguments put forward against amendment No. 11 regarding Sundays. No Minister for Justice would be able to hold the line as it is with regard to Sunday drinking generally. If we open the door here, there is no way we will be able to argue against those who want a straight run through — and all the interests in the trade would want a straight run through — but I do not believe any of us want that. As I said, I can accept amendment No. 10, but I cannot accept amendments Nos. 11 and 12.

I appreciate what the Minister says about amendment No. 10, but may I say a few words about amendment No. 11 which deals with Sunday opening? I understand the Minister is very keen not to be seen as giving in to wholesale drinking on Sunday, but could I remind him that the hours we are dealing with here are between 3 o'clock and 6 o'clock in the afternoon? As far as I know, the pubs open at 4 p.m., and we are talking about the difference of one hour.

I would not have any objection to restaurants not being able to serve alcohol as early as is stated in the Bill but starting later. If the Minister does not want lengthy drinking hours on a Sunday, I can understand his concern, but I believe the purpose of the Bill is being thwarted if we do not accept an amendment such as this, because the purpose of the Bill is to allow substantial meals to be consumed in high quality restaurants, with alcohol. It appears that Sunday is more and more becoming a day for the family, as Deputy Barrett said. I am just as old-fashioned as Deputy Barrett——

Indeed you are not. Deputy Barrett is put out of the pub at 2 o'clock.

He is entitled to be a member of a golf club, which I am not.

The Deputy is——

Not a full member. However, I reiterate that I am just as old-fashioned as Deputy Barrett and I like to spend my Sundays with my family. Sometimes, not very often, I like to have Sunday lunch out but I cannot remember the last time I have done so before 3 o'clock and I think I am not that untypical. There are many people who wish to have a lazy Sunday dinner with their children and not rush to be finished at 3 o'clock.

The uniformity in licensing laws and hours should be stressed. We should not be creating problems for licence holders or for the general public who will be mesmerised by the changes in the hours. Let us keep uniformity. Let us allow restaurants to serve alcohol during the same hours each day. I will not press the idea of serving alcohol until 7 o'clock on Christmas Day, but it is unusual to ask people to eat their full Christmas meal before 3 o'clock on Christmas afternoon. I agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick: I would much prefer to have Christmas dinner at home — I have never had it anywhere else — but there is a growing number of people who eat their Christmas dinner out and we are telling them they must eat within the two hours mentioned because it suits the licensing laws, or the supposed morals inherent in the licensing laws. What about suiting the public need? That is what this legislation is about.

I appeal to the Minister to reconsider the amendments. I am not sticking to the hours in amendment No. 12, but I earnestly ask him to reconsider amendment No. 11 which is very reasonable.

Amendment put and agreed to.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 9, lines 10 and 11, to delete "or between the hours of three o'clock and six o'clock in the afternoon,".

Amendment put and declared lost.
Amendment No. 12 not moved.

Amendments Nos. 13 and 21 are cognate and may be discussed together.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 9, line 19, to delete "ten" and substitute "eleven".

These amendments deal with Christmas Day. What I am suggesting in this amendment is that on Christmas Day the licensing hours should be the same as other days. In this Bill we have agreed to abolish the 10 p.m. closing time on Sunday. I put further my case for uniformity in licensing laws because the Bill, as passed in Committee, insists that the premises close and that alcohol not be consumed after 10 p.m. The point is that we have achieved uniformity in other areas in licensing and it is worth extending it to this provision. I ask the Minister to consider that. Section 14 deals with special restaurant licences and amendment No. 21 is to section 28. I appeal to the Minister to consider these amendments which are put down for the purpose of achieving uniformity. They do not have any moral import. These amendments are reasonable.

I am in agreement with this legislation. I own a public house but I firmly believe alcoholic drinks should not be served in a public house on Christmas Day. Christmas Day is a day for the family. Christmas Day and Good Friday are the two days of the year the public houses should not be open to the public. I go further and say that alcohol should not be freely available in a public house on Christmas Day or Good Friday. It is a different story on St. Patrick's Day, New Year's Eve or New Year's Day. They are days for celebrating.

St. Patrick's Day was dry long enough.

If only one person is killed when somebody is leaving a pub or a restaurant having taken alcohol on Christmas Day, imagine the gloom and sorrow that brings to the family and the people living in the locality. We must maintain a sense of reality and responsibility in this debate. I totally disagree with this amendment.

I support this amendment, first, for uniformity and, second, because many of us are not so hard pressed or sectarian, to be direct about it. The general principle of the Bill is to make a range of alcoholic beverages available to people having a meal in a restaurant. The logic of the Deputy's argument is that people not only should not drink abroad on Christmas Day, but should not meet abroad either. I do not think the Deputy wants to make that case, but that is what he is arguing. We have to keep this argument in proportion. To use the Deputy's language, Christmas Day is a day of celebration, and within Christian lore, it is supposed to be the most celebrated day of the year. It is certainly a time of alcoholic consumption. It is also unfortunately a time of tragic deaths on the road. I see this provision as being very sensible and designed to achieve uniformity. We should accept it.

I would have difficulty in supporting amendment No. 21 which seeks to amend the section providing for the terms of special exemptions in hotels and restaurants. As I understand it, the special exemption order is not applicable to special restaurants. I certainly would not support extending special exemption hours on Christmas Day. It is a pity that special exemption orders are now being provided for Christmas Day in hotels and restaurants. I suppose there is a trend emerging and these days are not as private as they used to be. People want to socialise in public places, particularly licensed public places. I think this trend should be allowed to develop slowly. It is a little too soon to extend a special exemption to 11 p.m. on Christmas Day. In a few years' time it might be appropriate, but not yet.

The purpose of these amendments is to allow specially licensed restaurants and licensed hotels and licensed restaurants to serve drink until 11 o'clock on Christmas Day. In licensed premises generally Christmas Day is a closed day, but since 1960 hotels and restaurants have been allowed to serve drink with substantial meals between 1 p.m. and 3 p.m. and between 7 p.m. and 10 p.m. Section 9 of this Bill proposes the same permitted hours on Christmas Day for specially licensed restaurants. I have received no significant demand for an extension of these hours in hotels and restaurants and it appears that the general public are happy with them. Accordingly, I see no need to change them for hotels and restaurants or for specially licensed restaurants.

My amendment No. 21 applies to hotels and restaurants and special exemptions. As Deputy Cooney has rightly pointed out, the Bill does not allow special restaurant licence holders to apply for special exemption orders but I have an amendment which I hope to push later on this point.

I am not particularly happy with the idea that special exemptions should be available on Christmas Day. I am looking for some effort on the Minister's part to bring uniformity into the licensing laws. The original reason for 10 o'clock closing was that Sunday closing time was 10 o'clock. That has now been changed to 11 o'clock, so why are we retaining 10 o'clock closing on Christmas Day? If it is on moral grounds, then we should abolish special exemptions on Christmas Day. I would not shed a tear if that happened. If special exemptions are to remain, we should at least bring them into line with other legislation. The Minister says there is no demand for it but is it not reasonable to make the laws uniform? If it is, it is in his hands to do so.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I would draw the attention of the House to some points regarding the amendments. The side note on amendment No. 15 should appear beside amendment No. 14. There is a further correction in respect of amendment No. 15 where the last word should be in the plural, i.e. "regulations".

Amendments Nos. 14, 15 and 16 may be taken together, by agreement.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 11, to delete lines 10 to 16 and substitute the following:

"24.—A draft of every regulation proposed to be made under this Part shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the regulation shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each such House."

Under section 24 of the Bill as initiated regulations made under Part II of the Bill would have come into operation before Deputies would have had an opportunity of examining them and, if a majority so desired, of having them annulled.

There was unanimity on the other side of the House that the regulations should come before the House before coming into operation. I accept the argument and the wording of the new section 24 is almost identical to that put forward by Deputy Barrett. The form now adopted is that most favoured by the draftsman.

I welcome this amendment and express the hope that it will be a guideline for future legislation dealing with ministerial regulations.

That is what you get for having a good Minister.

This amendment is vitally important in that the House will have an opportunity formally to approve the regulations made by the Minister for Tourism and Transport.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 15 and 16 not moved.

On a point of order, have we agreed on reserving some specific time later tonight to deal with the new concept of the age card?

The Whips might consult about that aspect of the matter.

I understand a Whips' meeting is scheduled to consider dividing the rest of the time.

Amendment No. 17 not moved.

Amendment No. 18 in the name of Deputy Seán Barrett. Amendment No. 64 is related and I am suggesting that we take both these amendments together.

I move amendment No. 18:

In page 11, to delete lines 43 to 46, and in page 12, to delete lines 1 to 4 and substitute the following:

"(2) Every person who—

(a) allows or permits persons to remain on the premises for the purposes of consumption of intoxicating liquor in contravention of this section shall be liable upon summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £300, or in the case of a second or any subsequent offence, a fine not exceeding £600 or

(b) in fact sells or exposes for sale any intoxicating liquor or who opens or keeps open any premises for the sale of intoxicating liquor in contravention of this section shall be guilty of an offence under this section and shall be liable upon summary conviction thereof, in the case of a first offence to a fine not exceeding £400 or in the case of a second or any subsequent offence, to a fine not exceeding £800.".

I tabled this amendment on Committee Stage and the Minister gave an undertaking to see what could be done to facilitate the spirit of the amendment. We should make a distinction between a publican serving drink after hours and a person found on the premises after hours. There is a great difference between somebody breaking the law by providing alcohol after the allowed hours and somebody who is endeavouring to clear his premises. The fine will be £400 if a publican is found actually serving drink after the allowed hours. I would like to hear from the Minister if it is possible to facilitate us in this regard. I appreciate there may be some difficulties in implementing the law but the spirit of the law should be there to show that this House regards the two offences as being different.

Debate adjourned.
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