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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 May 1988

Vol. 381 No. 2

Adoption (No. 2) Bill, 1987 [ Seanad ]: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Before we adjourned for Question Time I had raised the issue that it is essential that there be a degree of certainty in the area of adoption. I drew to the Minister's attention the fact that the Fine Gael Private Members' Bill introduced a year ago to provide for the adoption of legitimate children abandoned by their parents dealt with the constitutional issues in a way similar to a way the Minister deals with them. I said that so as to ensure that, many years after an adoption order was made pursuant to the terms of my Bill as it was when introduced and many years after an adoption order is made under this Bill now before the House, no problems can arise as to its constitutional validity and that there was a need to have at an early date a decision as to the constitutionality of the procedures provided for under this Bill in permitting the adoption of abandoned children born to a couple within marriage.

The Minister in his speech did not indicate whether he favoured such a constitutional decision taking place at an early date. I repeat it is my belief that this Bill should be referred by the President to the Supreme Court under Article 26 of the Constitution so there can be a once and for all decision as to its constitutionality. If that is not done we will discover after the Bill comes into force, on the first two or three occasions when an applicant for adoption makes application under this Bill to the High Court for permission to adopt a child who has been with the applicant in fosterage for some time, that the constitutional issues will have to be fought out between the applicants and the natural parents if they are opposing the application. Even if there is no opposition from the natural parents to an adoption order being made, the court may of itself on its own volition raise the constitutional issue and the first adopters who seek to adopt under the provisions of this legislation, through no fault of their own and without wishing to be so involved, could find themselves involved in a constitutional action in which they have to ask the courts to determine the constitutionality of this measure.

It is preferable that this issue is disposed of before we start working the provisions of this Bill. Accordingly, I urge the Minister, using whatever influence he has, to publicise the fact that not only Deputies on the Opposition benches but also the Government Minister and the Government themselves would like the President when he has this Bill before him for signature to consult with the Council of State with a view to having a decision as to its constitutionality.

It is worth mentioning that this Adoption Bill, like its predecessors, including the Fine Gael Private Members' Bill, has had to follow a very tortuous and difficult legal route in laying down the criteria applicable and to be determined by the courts in ascertaining whether a child should be made available for adoption.

The Minister, quite fairly, during the course of the Seanad debate indicated that in the context of the criteria laid down, the High Court must have regard to such criteria when making a decision. However, he could not fully explain the meaning of the criteria or fully set out the circumstances in which the court might regard parental failure as constituting an abandonment on the part of parents and all parental rights under the Constitution or otherwise. The Minister said it must be left to the courts to determine when there is such a failure and the wording of the Bill follows that of Articles 41 and 42 of the Constitution in this regard.

The previous measures which came before the House in dealing with this area also had to follow this route. The difficulty with this legislation in practice is that until the courts impose their own interpretation there will be some degree of uncertainty as to the exact parameters of its application. It is most regrettable that that uncertainty remains because we have not yet faced up to or tackled the constitutional issues that need to be resolved in this area. The need to resolve them was highlighted not just by the somewhat prolix provisions contained in this Bill but also by the provisions in the Bill dealing with child care which will be debated on another occasion, which seeks to tread over constitutional glass in trying to ensure that children at risk can properly be afforded care and protection without health boards violating constitutional rights.

Our Constitution is grossly defective in this area. There is a need for a clear statement on the rights of children and parents without the ambiguity that exists by reference to inalienable and imprescriptible rights, which are referred to in the Constitution. In effect, it is left to the courts to decide what those rights are and how they should be applied. I am not suggesting that parents or children should be deprived of their rights but it is unfortunate that there is a constitutional grey area in which no one can be certain of the rights of parents and children in particular circumstances, how such rights should affect adoption or where a child is at risk as a result of parental misconduct. We need a charter of rights, not merely under our ordinary law but under the Constitution, in relation to children. Emphasis should be laid on the rights of a child, as very much the vulnerable and dependent person, and at all times to ensure the child's welfare.

The Minister, when introducing this Bill in the Seanad in July 1987, said that he would have preferred, if possible, the powers which the Bill confers on the High Court to have been conferred on a family court. Almost ten months later there is still no sign of the Government doing what the Minister would like to see done. It bears repeating that there is agreement on all sides of the House that there is a need for family courts to deal with contested issues in the area of adoption, issues that arise under this Bill and the whole plethora of problems that arise in the contentious area of family law. Nevertheless, the Government have turned their back on enacting legislation to provide family courts and, considering the statement made by the Minister in the Seanad in 1987 that he would like to see family courts, it was expected that some time early this year the Government might have implemented the recommendations of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Marriage Breakdown to provide such courts. We will go some of the way in that in the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Bill but we will not provide a unified system of family courts as a separate and totally different court system from that currently operating because that cannot be done in a Private Members' Bill. It can only be done by the Government because the establishment of such a court would constitute a charge on the Exchequer.

I invite the Minister for Health, when responding, to indicate to the House what steps he has taken since he spoke in the Seanad in 1987 expressing a preference for a family court to deal with all these matters. It is noteworthy that the Minister made no reference in his speech today to the desirability or need for family courts. Perhaps he will confirm that it is now the case, as has already been suggested by the Minister for Justice, that the Government have no interest in providing family courts and no commitment to them. Will he confirm if the Government intend to do anything about providing family courts?

There is another major disappointment in the Minister's approach today. When the Fine Gael Private Members' Bill was introduced by me, the Minister indicated that not only would he produce his own Bill to deal with the issue but that he would introduce legislation to implement widescale reform in the area of adoption law. Indeed, in reply to a Dáil Question on 30 April 1987 the Minister stated that in the coming months he intended to study the report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services with a view to introducing reforming legislation. It is now almost 14 months since the Minister gave that reply in the House. It is also noteworthy that in his speech today he made no reference to the wide variety of reforms which the Review Committee on Adoption Services suggested were necessary. There is no indication from the Minister as to whether he has completed his study of the report. I presume he could not still be studying it because it is not a particularly complex document and it has been around since 1984.

Will the Minister indicate whether he intends to introduce further legislation in the area of adoption, some of the comprehensive reforms to our adoption laws and practices and to implement all the reforms recommended in the report of the Review Committee on Adoption Services, or even a portion of these reforms? If he intends to implement some and not others, will he indicate which reforms he will provide for and when the House is likely to see comprehensive legislation dealing with the whole area of adoption.

The Minister would not have introduced this Bill if Fine Gael had not brought in a Private Members' Bill this time last year. He has not given any positive indication that he intends to implement some of the many necessary reforms to modernise our adoption laws and if this continues to be the case, Fine Gael will bring before the House a further Private Members' Bill dealing with other aspects of adoption law that need to be reformed. If necessary, we will force the Minister to take action on badly needed reforms. They have been documented for a long time. They did not originate with the Review Committee on Adoption Services. Many of them have been referred to by groups working in the area of adoption before that committee produced its report in 1984. I could list some of them as an indicator of the reforms necessary to bring our adoption laws and practices up to date to confront the many problems that the law currently ignores.

For a long time it has been said that there is a need to enact a statutory provision so that there would be a code of uniform procedures and practices applied by all adoption societies within the State. We do not have a statutory provision which allows, for example, the Adoption Board to ensure that minimum codes of practices and procedures are applied by the different adoption societies we have. The differences of approach of the adoption societies in the area of adoption has been commented on by a variety of groups over the years. Some societies are better than others, some are more efficient than others, some have more qualified personnel than others and some adopt different practices that bear no relationship to the law. For example, there is no provision in our adoption Acts which sets down any statutory maximum age for adoption though as a matter of practice, the adoption societies for some years would not allow a couple to adopt where both the husband and wife had exceeded the age of 40.

We now have a shortage of children being made available for adoption. More mothers who have children outside marriage are keeping them and caring for them. At one time we had in the region of 1,200 to 1,400 adoption orders made each year but that figure has dropped to between 600 and 800 adoption orders per year. As a result a number of adoption societies have closed their doors on adopters. They will not entertain any new applicants on their list because they have many people waiting for adoption placements and insufficient children to place with them.

Taken with that we now have adoption societies, and health boards, unilaterally, and without legislative force, imposing age limits on couples who can adopt which are a good deal lower than the 40 years that previously applied. There are some adoption societies who will not place a child with a couple for adoption where either the husband or the wife is over 33 years of age. The age limit has gone that low. Some are applying an age limit of 35 years. Those limits do not have any statutory force, and it is in such areas that we should have minimum codes of practice and procedure, ensuring a uniformity of approach. Couples are being deprived of access to adoptions under Irish laws because of unilateral decisions taken as a policy matter by adoption societies as to the age of couples with whom children will be placed, due to the shortage of children available.

There is also a need for a more integrated approach between fosterage and adoption. Currently, health boards largely deal in the area of fosterage and do some adoption work. Some do a little adoption work while others do a lot but then we have denominationally based adoption societies who largely and solely work in the area of adoption. There is a need for the breaking down of the barriers between adoption and fosterage into a more integrated approach. It is quite illogical at this stage that we have one agency dealing with adoption and a totally separate agency dealing with fosterage because there are overlapping considerations in those areas. Obviously, short term fosterage is quite distinct from adoption.

I regret to interrupt the Deputy who has such a reputation in this area but it is open to the Deputy on Second Stage to refer to what is in the legislation before us or what might be in it. Is the Deputy advocating that all the omissions that exist in respect of adoption should be in the Bill?

I am referring to what could be in the Bill had the Minister done his job properly. The Minister has had 18 months to deal with the report. It is most unfortunate that the Minister who has the Adoption Bill and the Child Care Bill before the House has virtually ignored the area of fosterage. The Bill before us highlights the interaction between fosterage and adoption. Before a couple can adopt under the Bill they will have to have a child placed with them for at least 12 months. The Bill shows the exact connection between adoption and fosterage. It shows how the artificial barriers have been erected, by the piecemeal development of social services here, between agencies that deal largely in adoption and others that deal largely in fosterage. That artificial barrier needs to be remedied by a coherent and comprehensive piece of legislation which will amalgamate all children's services under the aegis of one major agency.

The Minister had 14 months since he took office to deal with the report of the review committee. In the last Dáil the Minister was Opposition spokesman on Health and I presume that during his three years of spokesmanship he read the report of the review committee and had some views on it. Considering the amount of time he has had to deal with that report he should be dealing not just with this measure but with a comprehensive adoption Bill. Another matter that needs to be dealt with as a matter of urgency is the tracing of origins. Under our legislation there is no formal arrangement whereby a child who was adopted 25 or 30 years ago and wants to trace his or her origins and ascertain the identity of his or her natural parents can formally do so. Equally, there is no formal way in which a parent who placed a child for adoption 15 or 20 years ago and who wishes to communicate with that child can formally do so.

The reality is that there are quite a number of people in our society who were placed for adoption and would like to make contact with their natural parents. There may be a number of natural parents who would be happy that such contact be made but there is no legislative means of facilitating that contract. The Adoption Board have recognised that problem by making reference to it in their reports. There is a need to look at the area of tracing of origins and provide formal legislation setting out a procedure applicable in regard to it so that people who wish to make contact with each other can do so. It is necessary to provide the proper safeguards in circumstances where people wish to ensure their anonymity. We have not sought to address this issue in the House and it needs to be addressed in an adoption Bill.

Another problem that the Minister needs to address, and which I raised during the course of my speech on the Fine Gael Private Members' Bill — I suggested that the Government should deal with it in their legislation — was the recognition of foreign adoption orders. An increasing number of Irish couples are adopting children in India, Chile, Peru, the Phillipines and a number of other countries. Because there are so few children available here for adoption and because adoption societies have closed their doors. Some couples are forced to adopt outside this country because they are of a minority religious persuasion or are of mixed religion, and are not facilitated by existing denominational adoption societies in respect of whom there would rarely be a child available that they could adopt under our existing adoption laws. More Irish couples are adopting children outside Ireland and returning here with them and we do not have any laws stating in what circumstances the State recognises foreign adoption orders.

The extent of the problem has been recognised by the Adoption Board who now produce a special leaflet for couples who intend to adopt outside Ireland explaining to them what they need to do if they want to have the foreign adoption order repeated by having an Irish adoption order also made. Some couples end up having a recognised adoption order because, having adopted a child in Chile or Peru, they come back to Ireland and adopt here. For many couples it is not possible to do that.

We are the only country in Europe which has no legislation setting down the circumstances in which we will recognise a foreign adoption order. A growing number of children adopted in foreign countries are living in Ireland in a legal twilight zone because Irish law does not recognise them as having any legal relationship with the parents by whom they have been adopted. This matter will create a large number of problems in the future. It is regrettable that the recommendation by the Review Committee on Adoption Services that legislation be enacted in this area is not dealt with in this Bill.

A large number of other reforms are required in our adoption laws. I have referred to a small number of those mentioned by the Review Committee and I urge the Minister to indicate when he intends to provide comprehensive legislation.

I am glad this Bill is before us. Clearly there are problems which will have to be resolved to ensure that neither prospective adopters nor natural parents are put to unnecessary expense in seeking to process adoption applications. I hope the Minister will consider seriously the comments I have made about the problems of expense and come back with amendments on Committee Stage, not merely to deal with adoptions under this Bill but also to deal with adoptions which run into trouble and require proceedings to be brought under the 1974 Act which can result in court contests between natural parents and prospective adopters in circumstances where the Adoption Board have not finalised the adoption process.

If we can get this aspect of the Bill right, we will have done a good day's work in going some of the way to extending the possibility of adoption to those many children who are in foster care or residential care and have no prospect of again living with their parents. Having enacted this Bill, we should not regard our work as having been completed in the area of adoption. There is an urgent necessity to bring before this House comprehensive legislation to provide us with a modern adoption code to carry us into the next century.

Having sat through all of Deputy Shatter's speech, I extend my compliments on the very learned discourse he has given, drawing from his vast knowledge and experience. It will prove a very valuable contribution to the debate on the necessary alterations in the adoption laws. The House owes him a deep debt of gratitude for the interest and commitment he has shown over the years in seeking to bring about major change in legislation in this area.

We welcome this Bill which gives legitimate children the hope of having a normal family life. It has been a tragedy for many families that legislation of this nature was not on our Statute Book long before now. All of us in our constituencies have knowledge of the trauma suffered by foster parents and particularly by the children themselves in cases where close family bonds have been developed with foster parents, only to be shattered through lack of legislative support in certain deserving cases. It is a tragedy that the 1,500 children in care in our institutions are denied the opportunity of forming a strong family bond with caring and concerned adoptive parents.

I do not intend to delay the House on Second Stage because our views on the need for this legislation were put on record when Deputy Shatter's Private Members' Bill was discussed last year. Whatever about the delays which have occurred, it is appropriate to express appreciation to the Minister for coming forward with these proposals, as well as his predecessor, Deputy Desmond, who took the first initiative, and to Deputy Shatter. Since this Bill will have general support in the House we may assume it will be passed. It will be the first time we will have legislation which proposes to allow the adoption of legitimate children.

I should strike a note of warning by saying that we are immediately confronted by constitutional problems. Article 41 declares that the family have inalienable and imprescriptible rights. In the Ryan versus the Attorney General case in 1965 Mr. Justice Kenny said that “inalienable” means that which cannot be transferred or given away, while “imprescriptible” means that which cannot be lost or abandoned through non-exercise. When this is coupled with the JH case in 1985 where the Supreme Court said that a legitimate child has a constitutional right to be with its parents, one can see the difficulties. The major problem is that in the case of legitimate children the principal test applied by the courts is not what is in the best interests of the child, regardless of other considerations. They presume that the child's interests are best served by being in the custody of its parents, unless there is compelling evidence to the contrary.

This was illustrated by the JH case itself. In that case an adoptive couple had had custody of a child from the time it was one month old but the final adoption order was delayed by An Bord Uachtála for various reasons. In the meantime the natural parents married, thus legitimating the child. They then refused to given final consent to the adoption order and sought custody of the child in the High Court. Mr. Justice Lynch refused to grant the natural parents custody, saying that it was in the best interests of the child that he remain with his adopters. The Supreme Court reversed the decision, saying that the now married parents had a prima facie right under Article 41 of the Constitution to custody, that one could not simply apply a “best interests” test in this sort of case and that only where one could show that this was an exceptional case within the meaning of Article 42.5 where the married parents had failed in their duties towards the child that they could be deprived of custody. The adopters had failed to prove or show that this was the case and the upshot was that a three-year-old child was transferred from its adopters to the married parents.

That case shows there is a need to amend Article 41 to give greater protection to children's rights. Their interests, be they legitimate or otherwise, should come first in all legal proceedings. This is the policy we in the Progressive Democrats are committed to.

While we welcome the Bill, we believe it must be referred to the Supreme Court and we hope that when the President comes to consider it, if and when passed here, he will refer it to the Supreme Court because of the constitutional doubts about it. One could not tolerate a situation where the Act would be struck down five years later. That would cast doubt on the validity on all adoption orders made during that period. Before this legislation is ever brought into operation it should be tested by the Supreme Court.

I should like to enter certain reservations about some of the cumbersome legal requirements proposed in this Bill. Health boards will play a primary role in making application to the High Court for authorisation for an adoption order to be made by the Adoption Board. Experience has clearly shown that long delays occur in bringing cases to the High Court and in getting decisions from the High Court. High Court proceedings involve enormous costs at times. There is an urgent need for family courts. I am anxious to emphasise and support the points made earlier by Deputy Shatter about the need for family courts. The Minister can be quoted from references he made elsewhere that he too sees the need for family courts. I am aware of proposals of that kind being made in this House over a period of 20 years but we are still without an adequate family court structure. It is possible, within the existing legislative and constitutional requirements, to enact legislation establishing family courts. The view has been expressed that it would be necessary to have a constitutional amendment for this purpose. However, the Minister has not made any long reference to that today but he did so on other occasions. I hope this is not something that the Minister is going to walk away from and just make passing references to when Bills of this nature are brought before the House.

It is absolutely essential that the power to make adoption orders should be given to a special family court, a court that would have all the powers of the High Court but without the adversarial system and the trappings of a regular court. It is also important that it would be staffed by judges with special expertise and training. This is one of the major difficulties that we see with this Bill. Even though we welcome and support it, we recognise the difficulties that it will present when cases have to be brought to and contested in a High Court setting which is not at all suitable to deal with the type of matter that would be under discussion. I hope the Minister will take cognisance of that in considering the need for legislation in that area when discussing these matters with his colleagues. It would be more appropriate for the Minister for Justice to bring forward that type of legislation.

Deputy O'Hanlon quoted from his speech in Seanad Éireann in 1987 when this Bill was being discussed there. He said it would be preferable if we had a family court to deal, inter alia, with all aspects of proposed adoptions as it would avoid the need for cumbersome procedures, including the need for two applications as is envisaged in this legislation. There is no doubt — this is the view of the Adoptive Parents Association of Ireland and their legal advice — that the legal machinery that exists for High Court actions is totally inadequate in the adoption area as it lacks expertise and specialist training, it is too costly and it is subject to lengthy delays when hearing cases of this nature. That is a fairly commonly held view across the board. It is only the Government that can take action in that area and we appeal to them not to delay in doing so.

A family court structure should now be established, according to the Adoptive Parents Association, even if this necessitates a constitutional amendment. It is up to the Minister to fill us in on the advice he is getting in that regard. We believe it is possible to establish a family court without having to have a constitutional referendum. The Minister was asked by the Adoptive Parents Association to consider introducing a section in this Bill providing for the establishment of family courts or the hearing of adoption cases in family courts. I do not know what response he has given to that request. I would like, when the Minister is replying to this debate, if he would speak at some length on the prospects he sees for the introduction of a family court to deal with cases such as this and other similar cases in that area, as there is broad agreement on the necessity for such courts.

In the Minister's speech he referred to the question of costs that will be involved for applicants for adoption orders, costs which the natural parents might be involved in and the costs to the proposed adopting parents, the applicants. The arrangements he has provided for are admirable except in one case, where the prospective adopting parents do not get the support of the health board in making the application to the High Court. I understand that if they proceed to make the application on their own and do not succeed they will have to carry the costs themselves. If that is so it would be very unfair, particularly as we know that cases can be lost in court on mere technicalities. The courts often refuse cases before them but make recommendations for alterations in the law. In other words, they agree with the principle that is being sought but the law does not provide for it. The Minister has not given a full explanation to the House as to why he is excluding the cost to prospective adopting parents who proceed to make an application on their own for an order from the High Court. Otherwise the proposal in the Bill is admirable and is a satisfactory solution.

We note with interest the important role the Minister is giving the health boards in this area. I presume that if legislation is introduced in future to alter the structure of health boards some suitable arrangement can be made to ensure that similar procedures apply. Many Deputies in the House feel that there is need for fundamental change in regard to the existing services and structures of the health boards but that is a matter for another occasion.

The Minister should seek to ensure, either through a constitutional amendment or through legislation, that when the courts are considering adoption cases the interests and welfare of the child would at all times be paramount. Whatever legislative measures have to be taken to bring that about should be taken. We are anxious that that be done and I appeal to the Minister to take action in that regard.

Deputy Shatter referred to the difficulties that will arise with foreign adoption orders. Many of us have experience of this from people in our constituencies who go abroad for a short period and adopt children in the countries that were mentioned, South America in particular. I know that people in my constituency have been in close contact with adoption authorities in that country. Parents who have already entered into foreign adoption orders are concerned about the legal relationship between them and their foreign-adopted children while living here in Ireland and the legal status of those children. The Minister's Department are aware of this problem because a number of cases have been brought to their notice. I would like the Minister to make some reference to that and to say whether it is proposed to introduce legislation to clear up many of the doubts and anomalies that exist in that area. We welcome the Bill and look forward to a more detailed discussion on Committee Stage.

First, I thank the Deputies who have contributed to this debate. I am heartened by the widespread support in the House for this measure which is long overdue.

Do I take it that the Minister of State is concluding?

Yes. The Bill has already been amended by the Seanad. A very worthwhile debate has taken place in the Upper House on this legislation and I am very anxious that the Bill would become law as quickly as possible.

This Bill was published in 1987 and I hope it will be concluded before the recess. Our strategy of care and intervention is aimed at the retention of the child in its natural family. However, there will continue to be such children who will require to be separated from their parents. Some of them will be placed with foster parents and circumstances will arise where integration with their natural families will neither be possible nor in the child's best interest. This legislation will permit their adoption by their foster parents in certain very restricted circumstances, so giving the child the opportunity of a stable, secure family upbringing.

I note what Deputies have said about the importance of ensuring the constitutionality of the Bill. Under the Constitution, it is entirely a matter for the President to decide whether to refer a Bill to the Supreme Court for ruling as to its constitutionality. It is not a matter in which the Government can intervene. I want to make it quite clear that this is strictly a matter for the President who will be conscious of the contributions made in this House. The Minister, Deputy O'Hanlon, and I are satisfied that, should this Bill be passed by the Oireachtas, and tested in the Supreme Court, there will be cogent and substantial grounds for arguing successfully in favour of its constitutionality. I want to emphasise that I would be very glad to see that confirmed by the Supreme Court.

Deputy Shatter raised the issue of further legislation in the area of adoption. We propose to bring forward a further adoption Bill in due course which is being worked on at the moment. However, my first priority once the current Bill is passed is to press ahead with the major new child care Bill to update the present law relating to the care and protection of children. After that, I would hope to bring forward a comprehensive adoption Bill relating to the reforms recommended in the report of the Adoption Review Committee.

Deputy Shatter raised an issue which is dealt with in some detail in the report of the Adoption Review Committee, that is, the adopted person's right to know their background. The Bill before us is confined to extending the categories of children eligible for adoption and I do not wish at this stage to broaden it. The question raised by Deputy Shatter is a complex, sensitive issue about which there are strong conflicting views. I intend to study this issue carefully and I hope to include a provision to deal with this area in the comprehensive adoption Bill which we will bring forward.

Deputy Shatter requested that the age limit of adopters should not be inflexible. There is no statutory age limit for adopters, and it is not proposed to introduce one in this Bill. Obviously this is an area in which there should be flexibility, particularly where older children are being adopted, which I hope would happen under this legislation. However, the practice at present is that persons selected as adoptive parents should not be older than the generality of parents of other young children. The lowering of the age limit is a very interesting point and is one my officials will look at.

Under this policy younger adoptive parents, under 40 years of age, are favoured but this policy does not rule out a different approach in exceptional circumstances. I am most anxious that in all aspects of adoption there should be as much flexibility as possible while maintaining certain guiding principles.

Deputy Shatter referred to the cumbersome procedures whereby foster parents must request the health boards to make an application on their behalf to the High Court. It was necessary to include such a provision because in the majority of cases children have been placed in foster care by health boards in the first instance. The health boards have statutory responsibility for these children. As our child care services develop and with the updating of our child care laws, I hope the increasing trend towards placement in foster care rather than in children's residential homes will continue. Health boards should be involved in placement and in overseeing the welfare of children in foster care. I expect there will be a higher level of co-operation between the health boards and foster parents in preparing applications to the High Court under the proposed legislation. I should say at this stage that adoptive parents are providing an excellent service for the State by ensuring that these children are not put into institutions.

The board will have knowledge of the natural parents, whose rights we must not overlook, as well as the child and the foster parents, and the board will be in a position to advise foster parents as appropriate. Deputy Shatter mentioned the fact that in the event of foster parents taking an application to the High Court and being unsuccesful, the cost will not be met by the State. If foster parents take a case to the High Court it means the health board have declined or failed to make an application to the High Court on their behalf. I expect the boards's decision will have been taken on the basis of information available which would suggest that the application would not be in the best interests of the child. In the interests of all concerned — and here again I would ask the House to have regard to the rights of the natural parents — there should be some disincentive to inappropriate applications to the court.

What is an "inappropriate application"?

This was debated in great detail in the Seanad and the Bill is clear as to the action that would be taken by the health board. They will be aware of the child's background and the reason the child was fostered. We feel the Bill covers this area very well.

I strongly recommend the speedy passage of this legislation which has been debated at length in the Upper House. It is very important that the Bill be brought for signature and decision by the President as quickly as possible. I have taken note of the points raised by Deputy Molloy which we will deal with again. I would be willing to look at amendments on Committee Stage if they improve the Bill, but I must stress that the scope for major amendments may be very limited in the light of the serious constitutional issues which underpin the main provisions of the Bill. There are a number of other areas which need to be reformed but which would be more appropriate to the next adoption Bill. However, I will be giving them full consideration and I will bear in mind the comments that have been made on this issue.

I thank the Deputies who have contributed to this Second Stage debate and will consider on Committee Stage the points put forward which I hope will lead to the speedy passage of the Bill.

Will the Minister respond to my query about section 3 of the Adoption Bill, 1974, and the abolition of the Attorney General's scheme?

I understand that is not relevant to the Bill.

The Minister told the other House he abolished it.

I am aware of the situation and we will deal with it in detail on Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

That will be decided between the Whips.

We must have a date, but it need not necessarily be adhered to.

I suggest next Tuesday, subject to the agreement between the Whips.

I have before me the Order of Business for next week and it nominates next Thursday, 10.30 a.m. for the Second Stage (Resumed) of the Adoption Bill.

I suggest next Thursday, subject to agreement between the Whips.

Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 2 June 1988.
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