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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jun 1988

Vol. 381 No. 8

Local Government (Multi-Storey Buildings) Bill, 1988: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Sé aidhm an Bhille seo na neart dealbhach a thabhairt do mholadh an Forsa Tasca ar Struchtúr Foirgneamh Ilstórach gur cheart measúchan d'fhail ó dhuine ábalta ar struchtúir de dheanamh áirithe atá chúig stóir no níos mó. Tá an measúchan seo ceaptha a thaispaint má tá na struchtúir láidir go leor chun seasamh suas do chliseadh díréireach in am timpiste.

I might briefly remind Deputies of the background to the setting up of the task force. You will recall the gas explosions in multi-storey buildings last year, including the tragedy in Raglan House. A report on the explosions was commissioned from consulting engineers Cremer and Warner and following its receipt the Government established a task force to consider whether there were problems related to potentially vulnerable buildings and situations and to make recommendations for action. The task force's report has been published and copies have been presented to both Houses.

The task force made a number of recommendations dealing with both structural and gas safety. Appropriate action on implementation of these recommendations is being undertaken by my Department and by the Department of Energy. One of the central findings of the task force was that they found no cause for general concern about the stock of multi-storey buildings in relation to vulnerability to disproportionate collapse — that is collapse which would be out of proportion to the magnitude of the accident caused to the building. That central finding is most reassuring.

The task force identified certain forms of construction of multi-storey buildings and considered it prudent that the owners of such buildings should have them appraised to determine their robustness. They gave guidelines on how this appraisal might be carried out and, if the robustness of any particular building is in doubt, they recommended actions that should be taken to minimise the risk of accidental damage to that building. In making this recommendation the task force recognised that structural upgrading of an existing building is seldom economically viable.

The particular buildings identified by the task force as needing appraisal are those of five storeys or more that are constructed using precast concrete floors, together with either precast concrete frames, or precast concrete panels, or masonry walls. The Government considered that a statutory requirement to appraise these buildings and to take any necessary action was needed to reassure both the users of such buildings and the public in general. The Bill that I have now brought before the House reflects a response to that need. It requires the owners of all buildings of five or more storeys which were built since 1950 to have their buildings appraised by a competent person and to submit certificates of appraisal in a specified form to the relevant local authority.

Section 2 of the Bill requires each local authority to prepare and maintain a register of all buildings of five storeys or more constructed since 1950 in their area. The local authority will notify the owner of each such building completed before the legislation comes into effect of the need to submit a certificate relating to the structural appraisal of the building. Provision is made in section 4, to which I well refer later, for the certification of multi-storey buildings completed after the legislation comes into effect.

Section 3 deals with the certificates which must be submitted by owners. Provision is made to enable a person who has been served with a notice by a local authority, but is not an owner, to make a declaration to that effect. He will not then have to submit a certificate. The form of the certificates will be prescribed by regulations to be made by me following the enactment of the legislation and different certificates can be provided depending on the circumstances of the building.

Every building of five storeys or more built since 1950 must have a certificate submitted for it. If the building is not one of the construction forms identified by the task force as requiring appraisal, the certificate will state that fact and nothing further will be required with regard to that building. In other cases the Bill provides that, if the building is constructed in accordance with the relevant codes of practice and standards that take account of disproportionate collapse, or if its level of robustness compares favourably with that of such buildings, then this will be stated in the certificate and no further action will be required in these cases.

If a building's robustness is in doubt, it may be out of the question on cost grounds, even if it is technically possible, to structurally enhance that building. This was recognised by the task force and, as an alternative, they recommended a list of actions that should be taken, in so far as they are reasonable in any particular case, to minimise the risk of accidental damage to such a building and thereby enhance its safety. There is a full list of actions in the Third Schedule to the Bill. Section 3 (2) (c) provides for certificates in these cases.

All certificates must be signed by a competent person who is defined in section 1 of the Bill as a chartered engineer with experience related to either structures or gas, depending on what is being appraised and the actions being taken.

In the case of a multi-storey building completed after the commencement of the Act, the owner will be required, without notification from the local authority, to submit the necessary certificate before the building or any part of it can be occupied. This is provided for in section 4. The need for a certificate where a local authority own a multi-storey building in their area is dealt with in section 6.

Section 5 provides that, where action has been taken to minimise the risk of accidental damage to a building, such action cannot be changed or reversed without a new certificate being submitted to the local authority. It will be a serious offence to breach this provision, with a maximum penalty of a fine of £10,000 and/or three years in prison. This will provide protection for users of such buildings and the general public while, at the same time, giving a degree of flexibility to an owner who may wish, because of altered circumstances, to make changes. Provision for rights of entry of an owner and his agent in the cases of multi-owner or multi-occupancy buildings after due notice is catered for in section 7.

The remaining sections cover the usual legislative provisions for interpretation, service of notices, power to require information from occupiers of a building as to the owner, the making of regulations, offences and penalties. In view of the possible implications, it is proposed to make the signing or submission of a false certificate an indictable offence, if done knowingly, with maximum penalties of a £10,000 fine or a jail sentence of up to three years, or both. Other offences are subject to a maximum penalty of £1,000.

On publication of the task force report my Department placed advertisements in the national papers advising owners of the recommendations in the report and the need for appraisal of certain buildings. Local authorities were also advised and asked to begin work on setting up their registers of multi-storey buildings. The important thing at this stage is to ensure that the buildings in question are appraised. I know that many owners will wish to have this done as rapidly as possible. In fact, I understand that many buildings have already been appraised. I will be asking local authorities to notify individual owners now of the requirements provided for under the Bill and my Department will be issuing appropriate guidance documentation to the local authorities in the near future. The intention is that, if the appropriate certificates are submitted to the local authorities in anticipation to the enactment of the Bill, they will be acceptable.

I am confident that implementation of the provisions in this Bill will give a greater level of reassurance to the public about the safety of multi-storey buildings. I therefore commend this Bill to the House.

While the Bill is commendable it is a somewhat piecemeal approach to a problem which was brought on stream by the Raglan House disaster. At that time the litany of failures in regard to the building and the safety precautions taken by the Gas Company were truly of frightening proportions. I wonder if the Bill, coming into the House without the building regulations being given statutory powers and without by-laws having any statutory enforcement powers, will meet only part of the problem if we want to make our buildings in the city safe for the use of natural gas.

Some of the problems that emerged in the Raglan House report did not simply refer to the structural features of the building; the underground spaces where gas had been permitted to accumulate were also mentioned. This would be a problem regardless of the structural form of the building. In the course of the certification procedures envisaged will there be a check of the spaces underneath the buildings? This Bill deals solely with buildings and perhaps the Minister is overlooking the fact that much of what needs to be done to make the whole procedure safe in relation to using gas in Dublin is to have an overseeing body which would make sure on behalf of the public that there is total confidence in the safety of buildings. Is the Minister satisfied that Bord Gáis Éireann are not only to be the supplier but also the agency which will vet the supply to buildings? There is a wider issue involved which the Minister needs to address with his Cabinet colleagues before we can have complete and utter confidence in the gas system. As a companion to this Bill, he should move on the building regulations, give firm force to the by-laws and have a proper safety authority to deal with safety in all aspects. He should also look at the intrusion of gas to carpark surfaces and vacuums underneath buildings.

I welcome the opportunity of saying a few words in relation to this Bill. It affords us an opportunity of highlighting the serious problems that exist, particularly in many urban areas, in high-rise buildings and multi-occupancy buildings generally. I am not convinced that the Bill goes far enough in trying to deal with the problem. The background to the measures was a very serious series of incidents and this measure arises out of the report of the task force on multi-storey buildings. Unfortunately, however, many of the recommendations in that report are not yet in place and this legislation seems to be minimalist in its approach. I am not convinced that it meets the full legislative requirements if we are to resolve the problems which arose out of the explosion at Dolphin House, the content of the report of Cremer and Warner and the report of the task force on multi-storey buildings.

There is an extremely serious problem in most urban areas and certainly in Dublin city in relation to multi-storey buildings. The Bill is quite specific in excluding from consideration any building under five storeys and it also excludes any building built before 1950. Therefore, it deals only with a limited range of buildings. There are many buildings, reasonably dilapidated, about which questions could be asked in relation to their safety. Indeed, a number of these in recent months have been the subject of demolition orders in Dublin city where aspects of public safety, not necessarily related to possible gas explosions, but issues nevertheless of fundamental importance, will not be taken into consideration in the Bill.

Why did the Minister exempt buildings built before 1950? I assume it has something to do with the nature of construction but I suspect that the date was not based on the findings of the reports referred to. It would not be unreasonable, in a country which is not renowned for multi-storey buildings, to have extended the scope of the Bill to any multi-occupancy building. I accept that in the immediate future it is reasonable to concentrate on the higher multi-storey buildings but there are whole tracts of Dublin city with multi-storey buildings which will not come within the ambit of this Bill. That is disappointing and may mean that the Minister's presumably genuine attempt to deal with the problem will not result in the kind of outcome which everyone in the House hopes for.

There is a need to extend the Bill. If issues of public safety are at the heart of this Bill's concern, then we should not set artificial parameters or limits in terms of the life or the height of the building. All multi-occupancy buildings should be included. There was a hint of complacency in the Minister's speech which is ill-founded. He said that the task force found no cause for general concern about the stock of multi-storey buildings in relation to vulnerability to disproportionate collapse, that is, collapse which would be out of proportion to the magnitude of the accident caused to the building. He said that that central finding was most reassuring. However, in the summary of the report the task force qualify their support by reference to very poor co-operation and response. They refer to the difficulty they had in making an intensive and extensive survey of such buildings. On page 1 of the report they said that the level of response from owners and designers was disappointing and that local authorities had only limited information on buildings in their functional areas. Further on they said that, given the limited time available to them to conclude the report, they were not in a position to identify individual buildings which might be vulnerable. There are similar remarks throughout the report.

Therefore, we should not be too complacent or reassured about the findings of the report based on that, understandably and unfortunately, qualified approach to the research. However, the report is quite comprehensive in the range and scope of the recommendations contained therein. At the outset of his speech the Minister said that many of these recommendations are receiving "appropriate action" in various Departments, particularly in his own Department and the Department of Energy. I would like the Minister when replying to this debate to deal with this report which, after all, is the basis for this legislation and with the long list of recommendations I made, many of which do not relate either to his own Department or the Department of Energy. For example, some relate to the Gas Company which, as we all know in this House, is answerable to nobody as far as we can judge, and is almost unapproachable as far as most public representatives are concerned. As far as I am concerned, it simply does not answer serious queries put to it.

There are other recommendations which relate to a whole range of other areas. They are serious and considered recommendations and I believe because of the work which has been done and the implications arising from the investigation of the explosion they should be implemented at the earliest possible date. The Minister did not say in his speech, but I hope I will be corrected on this, that those recommendations are to be implemented. Rather he said that appropriate action on their implementation is being undertaken by his Department. I am long enough in the tooth and long enough in this House to know what "appropriate action" means, I ask the Minister to tell us if every one of the recommendations contained in the report of the task force on multi-storey buildings of August 1987 is to be implemented and, if so, how many have already been implemented given that what is at the heart of this Bill is a possible risk to life and to property.

Whereas emphasis has been placed on gas safety in the Bill and in the report I am dismayed to find that there is no reference to electrical safety. I considered that to be a serious omission for this reason. Quite candidly, I believe if we get an opportunity, as we do now, to deal with structural safety of high-rise buildings we should deal with the issue as comprehensively as possible. The Minister is as aware as I am that concern has been voiced for many years about the lack of accountability and the standard in the area of electrical safety. At present any individual contractor who is interested in providing electrical installations, regardless of his or her qualifications, can do so and can sign certificates of completion. The Minister appears to be expressing surprise about this; either he has not heard me or does not know about this and I would be appalled to find that he did not know about this.

About the certificate signed by the electrical contractor?

I am fully aware of it.

The Minister is also aware then that the contractors do not have to undergo any particular electrical safety training.

They do.

You or I, able as we are, could set up tomorrow as an electrical contractor, advertise in the evening newspapers and sign certificates of completion.

That is not so.

Correct me if I am wrong but I know that I am right——

I will later.

——and I am quite satisfied that that is the case. I have proved it. If the Minister talks as he should——

I did not know you were in the electrical business also.

I am not.

If the Deputy referred his remarks through the Chair we could avoid cross-talk in the House.

I was interrupted by the Minister.

Through the Chair.

What I am saying is that what the Minister has just stated does not stand up in accordance with the facts. The Council on Electrical Safety and the Electro-Technical Council agree that there is a serious deficiency in the area of electrical safety. There is also no register of electrical contractors. I have dealt with a number of these people and, while the majority of electrical contractors are genuine and decent operators there is the opportunity for abuse. The reality is that anyone can set themselves up as an electrical contractor, can install wiring in a house and can buy across the counter at any ESB office a pink slip known as a completion certificate which they can then sign and which will be accepted without question by the ESB.

The ESB recently rewrote the conditions attaching to electrical installation and the only revision they made from the previous edition was that they would not accept responsibility for the safety of the wiring, lest there be any doubt about it. What I am saying is that while the Bill seeks to deal with gas safety I believe this opportunity should have been taken to deal also with electrical safety. At present cowboy operators are able to operate in this area without hindrance from anybody and with the full connivance and acceptance of such standards by the ESB who are willing to accept a completed self-signed certificate which says that they have completed the wiring in accordance with the acceptable standards. There are a number of reputable people in the business who are appalled at this omission and they have been asking successive Ministers to do something about this problem.

I ask the Minister to consider before Committee Stage broadening the scope of this Bill to include electrical safety. It is at least as serious as the question on gas safety as every house has to have electrical wiring and there has been the loss of life and property through fires. There is an example of some of the incredible wiring jobs which have been carried out in this country in recent years across the road from us which was accepted, as far as I can gather, by the ESB on the basis of signed certificates. That is not good enough and I would like the Bill to be amended to deal with this issue.

The summary of the task force report should alert us to the fact that the Minister's assurances in this area may not be totally well founded. More importantly, the report contains a very extensive list of recommendations. I will not delay the House by reading all of them but let me point out that they refer to seeking the views of international organisations, international comparisions, the technical uses of various types of equipment, machinery, installations and so on. The committee also suggested that Dublin Gas should make major changes in their procedures, and God knows that is essential. They also recommended that practices adopted in certain areas to reduce network losses should be used all around the country; in other words, that there be consistent standards throughout the country.

They are very positive recommendations and, therefore, it seems that this Bill is only a piece of the total package which is required. I am aware that not all of the recommendations need to be implemented through legislation and it may very well be that some of them have already been implemented but I would like the Minister to tell us what his intentions are in this respect and how many of the recommendations have been implemented.

Let me now turn to deal with the content of the Bill. I am not happy with one or two sections of the Bill but I will not go into them in detail now because I may have a chance on Committee Stage to do so. Apart from the question on the overstrict and too narrow definition of multi-storey buildings contained in the Bill there is also the question of the responsibility which would be placed on local authorities to carry out the necessary assessments of local authority buildings. It is a bit much to ask the local authorities who are already very hard pressed for resources to carry out an assessment of the buildings which they own. The Minister says that where the local authority is the owner of a multi-storey building situated in its own functional area and where a report is called for it should be signed by a competent person. I assume it is the Minister's intention that that competent person would not be somebody associated directly or indirectly or employed directly or indirectly by the local authority concerned or indeed by any other local authority. In other words, there has to be a degree of objectivity and independence about such reports. Also, generally speaking, the point about the question of the independence of the competent person to carry out such examination needs to be clearly established relative to the whole area of local authority responsibility.

There are downstream responsibilities demanding some resource commitment, depending on the findings of the competent person. For example, if the competent person in carrying out his or her examination creates circumstances in which there is an onus of responsibility resting on a local authority, they may not be able to handle that responsibility depending on the needs that arise. All of us in this Chamber realise that the law departments of many local authorities are already overstretched; many of them say they are overstretched and many seem unable to deliver on their existing obligations. There is no point in our bringing in a law if it cannot be operated. Therefore, if there is to be a form of vested interest — I am not saying it would be exercised deliberately — which might say: "Well, it would be helpful if we did not have a clatter of complaints arising out of these inspections", in some circumstances that might compromise the capacity for independent assessment by the competent person referred to in the Bill. Therefore, the person who takes on responsibility for undertaking the evaluations should be clearly independent of the local authority, should be able to operate in a totally free and unpressured environment, allowing that person to do his or her job without any form of inhibition, any form of reference to the fact that the law department in the authority is already hard-pressed. If that assessment is not carried out with absolute integrity, then the Bill is a sham. I know that is not what the Minister or anybody else wants, but it is a key point. I should like that point dealt with clearly when the Minister is responding.

I also have a small worry about section 4 (3) which states:

It shall be sufficient compliance with subsection (1) of this section for any of the persons to whom this section applies to submit a certificate in respect of the entire building.

I am not clear precisely what that means and want it clarified. Am I to understand that, if there is a multi-storey building and a certificate is got by the owner in respect of one area of the building, that there may be, without the examination being assigned or applied to the whole building, a clearance certificate issued, or that it may be given the OK on the register to be held by the local authority? I want to ascertain what is the purpose of section 4 (3) because I am not clear as to its purpose. It seems to me to put a certain pressure on the capacity of the individual to undertake an absolute evaluation. It may mean that we may get, if you like, certificates in respect of a whole building on the basis of a partial examination. I could be misreading that subsection but that is the best reading I can make of it.

We all want the provisions of the Bill, in essence, to succeed. But I am struck by the fact that we may be asking too much of local authorities, who are expected to maintain these registers when it is clear to most of us here, and, I am sure, the Minister also, that some of the registers at present supposed to be maintained by such local authorities — for example, in relation to rented accommodation in the private sector where there are by-laws in existence — do not operate. We know they do not operate. What is the point in asking a local authority to maintain another register? The Minister spoke today at Question Time about another register in relation to the dumping of wastes. I know that does not operate either. I have a worry that we are perhaps creating a solution but passing the buck to local authorities who are hard-pressed in many cases and who, at the very best, operate totally arbitrary and unco-ordinated standards. I am fearful that we may get a very patchy, uneven and erratic application of the provisions of this Bill.

I am not satisfied with the capacity or, in some cases, the will of the local authorities involved to carry out the provisions of this Bill to their full rigour. I am not sure how that problem can be addressed beyond saying that it is important that, above and beyond merely having a register for local authorities to operate, the Minister should have regular reports from local authorities on their performance in this respect. I would hope also that there would be consistency in the way this register and the provisions of this Bill are to be implemented rather than each individual local authority going off and doing their own thing, as they do at present in so many cases in an area which has at its heart fundamental questions relating to public safety.

The task force identified, as indeed did Cremer and Warner, the consultant engineers and scientists who reported certain forms of construction as being key to the provisions of this Bill. They would be forms of construction that would give rise to the kind of structural problems to which Deputy Bruton referred a few moments ago. A Bill which is entitled the Local Government (Multi-Storey Buildings) Bill allows us a facility to take on board the problems arising right across the urban landscape in relation to multi-storey buildings. Another one of those, for example, is the whole area of listed old buildings which in many cases are not being maintained — in some cases because their owners simply cannot pay for their maintenance and in others because it suits the owners who want to have them developed. The consequence of that may very well be — again, to my knowledge — many elderly people living in dangerous conditions over which there is no scrutiny and in relation to which all of us would be extremely dissatisfied. In many cases they are five-storey buildings; they are multi-storey. There were cases recently in Eccles Street of buildings that would fall into that category. There are cases all around the city of buildings which give rise to serious questions with regard to their safety. It is not that mysterious because many of them are very old.

I have a regret that the provisions of the Bill did not say that their target was all multi-storey buildings over a period of time, beginning with those that were seen to be particularly vulnerable in the light of the report of the task force. That would have been reasonable. I cannot understand why the Minister sets these artificial arbitrary parameters on his right to impact on the serious problem.

Of course, the local authorities constitute the agency for the Bill. While I have significant admiration for many individuals within local authorities, in their present structure, arrangement and financing their time is running out. It is perhaps unfair and expecting too much to impose yet another responsibility on them, as we are so willing to do so often, without giving them any guidance, resources or any clear criteria in relation to national consistency of standard application for doing that job. I hope it is not a question simply of introducing a Bill, passing it to local authorities and hoping that it will be all right on the night. In this case it was not all right on the night of 25 February 1987 when the explosion occurred.

In my view the Bill is an attempt to go a little along the road. I would prefer a more fulsome, comprehensive assault on a serious urban problem. I would prefer to be getting absolute assurances that the recommendations of that task force, which were serious and considered, were being implemented in the spirit and to the letter under the watchful eye of the Minister rather than by a disparate and unevenly-operating range of local authorities all over the country, many of them preoccupied with their existing statutory responsibilities and finding it very difficult to undertake those. I am worried that the provisions of the Bill will not be effective. I hope the Minister can assure me to the contrary. I hope the Bill works but I have doubts about that and I will try, in my own modest way, to improve the Bill when it comes up for discussion on Committee Stage.

As one of the Deputies who has berated the Minister for being tardy in coming forward with legislation, what I have to say now is undoubtedly going to sound very ungracious. My berating of the Minister remains constant because in this instance he has come in with the wrong Bill and it is the very last Bill which should have been brought into this House. The Minister has left the Bill that would address this problem languishing on the shelf for the past three years, and I accept that the Minister has had responsibility for this Bill only for approximately 14 or 15 months.

I have studied the Bill and I have sought professional advice from my colleagues in the engineering profession. Architects do not frequently refer to engineers as colleagues, but in this instance I recognise that it is the engineering profession who uniquely are going to be put into the firing line if this Bill becomes law. It is an unnecessary and bad Bill and it will not solve the basic problem which the Minister thinks it is designed to do so. I do not doubt for one moment the sincerity of the Department of the Environment or of the Minister in coming forward with this measure but I think we should at the outset recognise what is at issue. The issue is not the structural safety of the multi-storey buildings in this State. The history of their construction and performance since 1922, if one wants to take the date of Independence, has been such that there is no need for alarm certainly for any building built after 1950. The only building that collapsed in recent times of natural causes as distinct from an explosion was a building at the corner of Fenian Street and Holles Street of much older age which had, because of the outrageous behaviour of the landlords of the day, become a dilapidated tenement and collapsed during the summer of 1963.

The Bill is an attempt by the Government to try to reassure public opinion with regard to the safety of the utilisation of gas. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the role and functions of the Department of the Environment. I suggest to the Minister that it has been visited upon him by the Government in the recognition that if Dublin Gas in particular do not manage to continue to sell substantial quantities of gas to their consumers then an entire and substantial public investment, with which I thoroughly agree, will be somewhat in jeopardy. I thoroughly support the objective of reassuring the people of Dublin as to the appropriateness, safety and cleanliness of our natural fuel which comes to us at a fraction of the cost of alternative fuels, which does not pollute our atmosphere, which does not cause respiratory illnesses and which can be very efficiently transported around the city. I fully support whatever measures the Department of Energy and the Government are taking to enhance the image of natural gas and reassure the consumer in respect of that commodity which is now in public ownership and at last under the very effective management of Bord Gáis Éireann and Dublin Gas.

That is the background to this Bill. It was the explosion in Raglan House on 1 January 1987 which triggered off the fear, worry and reaction to natural gas. The Government of the day commissioned a group of renowned international engineers, who are based in London and whose credentials in the area of gas, gas handling and gas conveyancing are second to none to carry out a survey. They produced a substantial report in relation to Dublin Gas and the way in which gas is handled in and out of buildings. They are not structural engineers but their terms of reference required them to look at the structure of the two buildings that were subject to explosions, Dolphin House and Raglan House. I should say that I live in Railway Cottages which are situated across the railway tracks from Raglan House. I was not there at the time the explosion occurred but I was there at 12.30 p.m. and during the days and weeks that followed I saw what happened to that building.

Cremer and Warner and the consultants who prepared the report subcontracted in a consultant structural engineer to do the structural side of their report. That section of the report was defective. I am confining my remarks entirely to the structural design of multi-storey buildings. In the Cremer and Warner report there were certain assumptions, a lot of non-sequiturs, no evidence of that kind of work upon which people could evaluate the quality of the conclusion. Running through this report from British based consultants and a subcontracted consultant engineer, there was an implication that Irish engineering standards might be defective. For example, in respect of the Raglan House explosion and the collapse of the building, the conclusion of Cremer and Warner is that because the building collapsed the structure must have been defective. There is no structural analysis in real terms as to why it collapsed. In fact, the building collapsed because a lake of natural gas had been allowed to accumulate in the sub-structure and surrounding area of that building and because of weather conditions at the time the processes of natural ventilation, which would have reduced that lake of natural gas, did not prevail and unfortunately — we do not know what ignited that natural gas but we do know that it was ignited — an enormous explosion took place. In engineering design the threshold of loading or impact of 35 kN is the maximum a building is normally expected to absorb. For example, nobody in the engineering world and no local authority would require an architect or an engineer to design a building that would be capable of sustaining a direct hit from an Exocet missile. There are standards beyond which one simply does not design for because they are outside the reasonable expectation of the kind of wear and tear a building would be expected to endure.

In their report Cremer and Warner are defective in their logical analysis in terms of the extent of the explosion that took place at Raglan House. The net point, without being technical or boring the House, is that if the level of the explosion from that lake of gas was in excess of 35 kN then the design, defective or otherwise, of the building is irrelevant, because even if it had been a superbly constructed Rolls Royce, belt and braces granitefaced building, it would have been substantially damaged by the force of that explosion. In relation to Dolphin House, which was constructed in breeze block and not in solid masonry walls and reinforced planks as was Raglan House, the level of the explosion that took place there appears to have been far less than that which took place at Raglan House and consequently the damage was less. Cremer and Warner conclude that because the damage was less at Dolphin House, it was a more robust building than Raglan House.

There are many contradictions running through the structural side of the analysis of the Cremer and Warner report. For example, they use the phrase "progressive collapse" right through the entire documentation, but when the task force which the Government set up looked at this they recognised there was no reference to the term "progressive collapse" in the codes of standards used by engineers in Ireland or in the United Kingdom. Therefore, the phrase "disproportionate collapse" was used.

The reason I am making this introductory point is, without any pun intended, to challenge the validity or veracity of the foundations upon which this ultimate legislative response rests. The Minister in his speech said:

The Government considered that a statutory requirement to appraise these buildings and to take any necessary action was needed to reassure both the users of such buildings and the public in general. The Bill I have now brought before the House reflects a response to that need.

This Bill is an attempt to reassure people. It is well motivated — that is not disputed — and is a genuine response to a wave of fear caused in the minds of many people who were using natural gas in their homes and which is now being effectively dealt with. Anyone who walks around the streets of Dublin knows very well that it is being dealt with effectively because one might as well be having a stroll in the Alps due to the way the pavements have been dug up to reinstate the entire network of distribution of natural gas.

The fact that there is so much surface disruption around the city of Dublin is testimony to the fact that we are renewing and replacing defective sections of the gas distribution system throughout our city and hence the fears that people had are not longer justified. This Government are using a sledgehammer to crack a peanut. They are imposing on the construction industry generally, on the professional engineers in particular and on the owners of certain buildings, a sequence of unnecessary costs and procedures which will not make their buildings any safer.

If this Bill becomes law it will not make these buildings any safer. We are talking about buildings built since 1950. Georgian Dublin is exempt from this legislation. We are only talking about buildings over five storeys built since 1950. None of these buildings were built by owner occupiers or jerry builders or do-it-yourself extension builders. We are talking about elaborate construction since 1950. These buildings were constructed and supervised under existing design criteria, the bulk of which will be in accordance with the standards set out in relation to this legislation. The Minister recognises that in some cases if a building requires to be reinforced the cost of reinforcing it would not be economically justifiable and that other measures recommended by the task force can be implemented.

There is an element of panic here. We are walking towards a tragedy and not without the benefit of hindsight, because the same thing happened in Britain. A system of construction borrowed from the Danes who used it for seven and eight storey constructions in the sixties was adapted by the British to build up to 20 and 22 storeys. This system is essentially like a pack of cards house — a panel for the wall, a panel for the floor and a panel for the roof and it was as vulnerable in effect as a house of cards. In Ronan Point, because of an accumulation of gas there was a blow-out at the 15th or 16th storey; it blew out two of these panels and everything above and below them started to shred. There was a great outcry at the time.

We in Ireland have no buildings similar in construction to the Ronan Point buildings. The response to that tragedy, because there was a lot of local authority housing built on the same system, was a massive structural reinforcing of those buildings at enormous cost. Yet, the statistical probability of another Ronan Point happening, once the management of the gas appliances was properly adhered to was very low. The engineers calculated that for one life saved approximately £20 million of taxpayers' money in Britain was spent. That was the kind of ratio. It was very expensive and it was not cost effective, although it is not easy to attempt to put a price on a life. This legislation is setting into law a number of costs and requirements, the full consequences of which the Minister has not thought out properly. I will be interested to hear the Minister's response to this debate.

On the consumer end, if a person has bought a flat or an apartment in a building of five storeys, that is four storeys with a penthouse, and wishes to sell it, that person as the owner will not be required to get a certificate of compliance. In many cases the construction company which built the block of flats no longer exists, because most companies, on completion of a building project go into self-liquidation. In that case the owner will be required to try to get from the engineer who originally designed the block of flats a certificate to comply with this Bill. The Bill does not require the engineer to certify that the building was designed so as to comply with the necessary standards of safety. It requires an engineer to certify that the building was constructed so as to satisfy standards of safety in accordance with the codes. The onus falls on the person who is certifying that this compliance has been met and it is very substantial. If he or she gets it wrong, he or she is liable to fines and in some cases to three years in prison.

All professional engineers have to carry indemnity professional liability insurance and the first thing that will be affected by this is the cost for professional engineers of professional indemnity. Secondly, it will make the owners of apartment buildings who wish to sell them or who want to get insurance face additional costs because the certificate will have to be acquired, presuming one can get an engineer who is prepared to lay his head on the block to certify that the building has been constructed in accordance with the regulations under this legislation.

Even where an engineer supervises a building, he may not be 100 per cent sure that the work had been carried out in accordance with the design drawings. No team of professionals can be 100 per cent sure. Most of the time one is sure but when one comes to the point of formally certifying it to the extent required here there can be a reasonable doubt. Whatever about a building which one designs and supervises at construction stage, there is no way in which one can certify that an existing building complies with the regulations, with the degree of certainty and authority that this Bill requires. It would be a bit like asking some of the best chefs in the world to certify that a cake, for example, has been made strictly in accordance with the recipe. One cannot retrospectively unscramble an egg and examine its quality and testify that the eggs were pure and organically produced before they went into the cake.

These difficulties are not particular to this Bill. They relate to the whole question of service certification. If we had the Building Control Bill in place at this stage this issue would have been resolved. The points I am making about certification generally and about self-certification are not specific to this Bill. They are general to the whole area of self-certification.

The Minister in his opening speech said that the regulations would prescribe the form of the certificate. I hope when we get to the relevant section on Committee Stage we will have a draft of the form of that certificate. I am giving the Minister notice now that I will be opposing that section unless we have a draft. With no disrespect to the Minister here present the way in which our business is done in this House is that we never get to debate the regulations of much of the legislation that is enacted. From the point of view of the concern that I am addressing at present — that of competency, engineers and certificates, their signing and their availability — it is the precise legal wording of the form of that certificate, it is the extent of the commitment you are asking an engineer to undertake in terms of profession liability costs and in terms of what they will have to answer for in a court of law should something go wrong.

The Minister's very able civil servants here and in the Department of the Environment are familiar with this entire field. There have been numerous draft forms of certificates submitted by the professional bodies and agencies during the last three, four and five years, so I am not asking for something to be pulled out of the hat. There are forms that have been drafted by the relevant institutes that have been discussed with groups like the insurance companies, who handle insurance, which would go a long way down the road to satisfying requirements of legislation on the one hand and fears from self-certifiers on the other. We should see it here on the floor of this House. I should like to say to the Minister that I could not vote in the relevant section, unopposed, unless we got sight of the kind of draft certificate that he had in mind so that we could talk about it. Out of courtesy and out of fairness I am duty bound to signal that at this stage.

I should now like to cite some of the sources and some of the assistance I got. I should like to quote from a report which was prepared by an ad hoc committee formed by the Institution of Engineers of Ireland, the Association of Consulting Engineers of Ireland and the Institution of Structural Engineers (Republic of Ireland Branch).

This ad hoc committee was set up as an appraisal of the official reports on the Raglan House and Dolphin House incidents by Cremer and Warner Limited with regard to aspects relating to structural engineering design of buildings to prevent disproportionate damage in the event of an accident. The reason I am taking the trouble to read some of these conclusions into the record is important. We do not often get an opportunity in this House to debate something like this.

What is implicitly at issue here is the technical and professional competence of our building design and construction design institutions. If you look at the level of our investment as a community, in the education of engineers and at the part now which the building industry is beginning to play abroad — and will increasingly play in other member states of the European Community — it is absolutely essential that no suggestion of second rate performance, or inferior standards of professional design or competence, is implied or attached to Irish institutions. It is very much in our interest as a community, as a nation and as a group of taxpayers that the high standards that have been consistently achieved in the education of engineers — and in the administration of their affairs by engineers and by the local authorities be maintained, and the evidence of the adherence to those high standards is the fact that the number of buildings that actually collapse, as distinct from falling in on themselves, as a result of an enormous explosion in this country is very small. It is important to nail the Cremer and Warner report so far as it addresses itself to structural performance of Irish design. Section 3 of the report states:

3. The committee consider CWL should be congratulated for producing their Reports in such a short time. However, several aspects of the CWL Reports were of concern to the committee in its attempts to see what if any lessons can be learned from the Raglan House and Dolphin House incidents in relation to structural design of buildings.

3.1. The committee noted that CWL apparently had no powers of discovery. This may have limited the availability of information and consequently the thoroughness of the Reports.

3.2. CWL's terms of reference (Main Report, page 2.1) restricted examination to similar types of buildings and occupancy. However, it is noted that their recommendations extend to buildings of varying occupancy, height and forms of construction. No information is given on what studies were undertaken to encompass other types of buildings.

3.3. The report does not set out the following important information concerning Raglan House:

—The full design team for the project. The Architect and Consulting Structural Engineer are named but the other members, if any, are not referred to.

The other members would include the mechanical engineer who would have responsibility for the installation of the gas fittings among other things.

The terms and date of appointment of the design team including the Consulting Structural Engineer and the areas of authority and responsibility retained by the Client/Developer.

The House will recall that this was a developer project where the builder was also the developer. That alters considerably the relationship in professional terms between the contractor on the one hand and the design team on the other. The report goes on to state:

— The brief for the design team.

— The actual design and supervision process.

— The legal requirement for approval under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Acts and Building Bye Laws at that time.

The apparent absence of this information to CWL may have implications for their assessment of Irish design practice.

It is incredible that a study on the structure of the building could have been undertaken without this basic information being obtained, studied and evaluated. I am aware from one of the engineers involved that a very perfunctory attempt was made by the people involved to contact him in relation to this. I am looking at the validity of the foundations upon which this Bill rests. I am reading into the record some of the observations by representatives of the three engineering institutions in our society. The report further states:

3.4 The CWL Reports do not list what information they sought or obtained and what discussions they had with the building designers to ensure the information they were working with was correct and to confirm as far as possible the correctness of any assumptions they might be making. The Reports present little by way of technical description or sketches of the building structure of Raglan House (e.g. details of structural screed/floor units, control joints in masonry, strength and other details of blocks and bricks used, mortar type, type and spacing of wall ties, bearing details of slabs on walls, beam details or the general structural arrangements). This information would be necessary to carry out a complete appraisal of the building structure.

3.5 The CWL Reports present no detailed structural analysis of Raglan House or Dolphin House, nor do they imply that such analyses were carried out. The Main Report as it relates to building structure appears to accept the premises that because Raglan House collapsed, it was not structurally adequate by normal standards.

That is incredible. That means that if a bomb were to hit — and some people in the city would not be sorry if it did — the civic offices down in Wood Quay, they were structurally inadequate because they had collapsed. The logic of that is something that should not be let out of kindergarten schools and yet this is in the report of Cremer and Warner. Section 3.6 of the Report states:

3.6 The description of the damage after the first critical explosion appears contradictory. Comparing Fig. 5.1., Fig. 6.2 and the text, it cannot be determined from the Report exactly what sections of walls or floor slabs on each floor can be said to have suffered immediate primary damage. For instance, it is not clear how much of the outside wall of the lounge in flat 1 was damaged to the extent that it could not perform any structural function. The first paragraph of section 5.2 in the Main Report is particularly confusing.

However it seems clear that several lengths of wall at least, probably all of the loadbearing walls in the front area of flat 1 (i.e. all of the loadbearing walls around the kitchen and bedrooms), were demolished by the immediate effects of the first explosion. This is damage far in excess of that allowed for in normal design procedure and the subsequent collapse of the section of the building over this area could not therefore be considered disproportionate to the initial incident.

This implies that the extent of the explosion on the one hand and the perceived performance of the building on the other were such that you could not deduce or conclude that the building was structurally faulty or badly designed.

3.7 It is not pointed out in the CWL Reports that the occurrence of a second explosion shortly after the first main explosion would not be considered in the design of a building.

—another important consideration—

3.8 The incident was the result of an unlikely combination of circumstances. The primary cause was accumulation of gas in the building without which no accident could have occurred. The report presents substantial evidence that the source of the gas explosion was a major factor on the external gas main.

Debate adjourned.
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