Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jun 1988

Vol. 381 No. 8

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Local Government Reform.

3.

Mr. McCartan

asked the Minister for the Environment if the local government reform package, which he indicated in Dáil Éireann on 12 December 1987 was being finalised, has yet been agreed by the Government; the interests or organisations which he has consulted regarding its contents; when the reform package will be published; if his attention has been drawn to public desire in Howth, Baldoyle and Sutton, Dublin 13 that these areas should be returned to the Dublin City Council area; if this matter will be considered as part of any overall reform package; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

17.

Mr. G. Mitchell

asked the Minister for the Environment if he has any plans to reorganise and reform local government in Dublin.

35.

Mr. Cullen

asked the Minister for the Environment the steps, if any, which have been taken to date to implement the Fianna Fáil policy as outlined in the policy document Power Back to the People — The Fianna Fáil Alternative, Local Elections, 1985, that grants administered from central sources in many Departments could be more effectively administered through local authorities and that these would be identified and administration transferred to local authorities.

41.

Proinsias De Rossa

asked the Minister for the Environment if he will introduce legislation or regulations which would enable local authorities to engage legally in the provision of commercial services and job creation projects; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

183.

Mr. Keating

asked the Minister for the Environment if he has any proposals to reduce the number of local authorities and change their statutory functions or powers.

Mr. Flynn

I propose to take Questions Nos. 3, 17, 35, 41 and 183 together The Government are committed to a fundamental overhaul of the local government system which will include structures, functions, finance and legislative reform. Since becoming Minister I have been conducting an intensive review of the system with a view to devising an appropriate package of measures which together will form the basis of a coherent and comprehensive reorganisation programme. As part of this process I have had consultations with various bodies representing local government interests including the County Council's General Council and the Association of Municipal Authorities of Ireland.

The question of local authority powers and functions is a matter of central importance to the reform programme. Local authorities already have very wide powers under the Planning Acts to engage directly in development and enterprise, either on their own or in combination with other interests. The question of extending these powers still further is under examination and it is also proposed to significantly relax the doctrine of ultra vires which can at times have the effect of inhibiting local authority initiative. Legislation will be necessary to effect these changes and this will also include the necessary provision to enable various functions to be devolved from the central to the local level.

The question of changes in the local government system in the Dublin area, including the most appropriate arrangements for areas such as Howth, Baldoyle and Sutton is a matter which falls to be considered as part of the general review of local government which I have undertaken. Work on the reorganisation programme is now well advanced and full details will be announced as soon as possible. At this stage it would be premature to comment further on any individual aspect of the proposed reorganisation programme.

Mr. McCartan

May I ask the Minister in his Department's review of the overall functions, structures and reforms of local authorities specifically is it still intended to consider the introduction of a greater Dublin authority to oversee the three existing local authorities functions and areas? In view of the remarks he has made regarding the ultra virus rule and the powers and scope of local authorities even at this moment to engage in independent activities, would the Minister consider issuing a circular of advice on his Department's views on the extent to which local authorities can or should engage in activities of this nature? Finally, in regard to that area, and I have no doubt he is aware of the geographic nonsense — if one could use that expression — of the cutting off of the Howth, Baldoyle, Sutton areas from the greater Dublin City Council area would he consider as an interim measure, in view of the strongly held wish in those areas to be reunited with their hinterland in Dublin city, an amendment of the 1985 Act to enable their return in the immediate future and not await what will obviously be very long and detailed reform legislation?

Mr. Flynn

All the things referred to by the Deputy are under consideration in this review. Regarding the question of the greater Dublin area so far as local authorities in the Dublin area are concerned, it is a very important aspect and will be part of the review. Regarding the ultra virus matter, I intend to do something about it and I have given a commitment on it. Whether it can be done immediately or whether we must wait to do it as part of a package I do not know but I will consider it further. Representations have been received from Dublin Corporation advocating the return of the three areas referred to by the Deputy and that will be considered in connection with the reorganisation. I do not think it would be wise to do it in a patchy way. Requiring legislation as it does, it is better to do it as a unit. I will consider the items referred to; they are already being considered in any event.

Mr. G. Mitchell

In view of the fact that Dublin is celebrating its Millennium, would the Minister agree that special attention to reform in Dublin would be justified in this year? Would he give consideration to issuing a White Paper later in the year on the whole question of reorganisation in the Dublin region? Would the Minister agree further that local government in Dublin is neither local nor government and would he consider the suggestion of a popular directly elected Lord Mayor as part of the considerations for inclusion in a White Paper?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is injecting new matter into the question.

Mr. Flynn

The Deputy is right that something needs to be done about the Dublin situation. It is a huge task and it is exercising the minds of the Department and the Minister at this time. I do not know whether any useful purpose would be served in doing something immediately so far as the Millennium is concerned. The Deputy is right that it requires attention and it is getting that.

Mr. G. Mitchell

What about a White Paper?

Mr. Flynn

I would not be given to considering that at this time unless a very good argument was made in support of it because we are snowed under with reports and commission reports about reorganisation of local government for the past 15 years. There are already seven there for viewing and I do not think that adding another commission report or White Paper would necessarily mean improving the situation. All the evidence we want is there; it is a question of taking the right decisions and hopefully getting unanimous support in the House for it. It is important to get unanimous support for matters concerned with local government and I hope that will happen.

Mr. Keating

In the local elections some three years ago the Minister's party indicated that grants administered from central sources in many Departments could be more effectively administered through local authorities and that these would be identified and their responsibilities transferred. Why has no progress been made on that? Is it absolutely necessary to wait further in view of the undertaking then given, which presumably was given on the basis of some study?

Mr. Flynn

These questions relate to structural reform as distinct from financial arrangements so far as local authority funding is concerned but I take the point. It would be my opinion that the two should run together. Structural reform and the financing arrangements and funding of local authorities should be taken simultaneously to get the right result. Without going too deeply into it, let me say that maybe that is what is holding up one as against the other.

Mr. Quinn

The Minister has given a fairly comprehensive reply. Would I be right in assuming that the Government have implicitly rejected the previous Government's proposals for local government reorganisation in the Dublin area?

Mr. Flynn

The Government are considering that as far as the new possible arrangements are concerned. The previous Government announced a major devolution programme in May 1985 but little progress, if any at all, was made in the implementation of that programme before the Government left office.

Mr. Quinn

The previous Government left on the Minister's desk a blueprint in relation to a number of local authorities in the Dublin area. Indeed, the last local elections provided for an increase in the number of councillors throughout the city and county area. Am I to take it that the present review as the Minister described in his reply explicitly rejects the previous Government's proposal?

Mr. Flynn

No, it does not implicitly reject it. That is one of the things being considered and the document, as the Deputy says rightly, was there and that was the cause, I understand, of the election of 78 people anyway. That is still being considered in the overall. I cannot give an indication yet as to whether I will go completely with what is suggested in that but it has to be looked at. Things as they are are unsatisfactory at the moment.

Mr. Boland

In view of the substantive answer to the original question, can the Minister indicate whether there is any fundamental difference between what he is considering now and the general scheme of a Bill on local government reorganisation which was adopted by the previous Government in the middle of 1986?

Mr. Flynn

I think there are some improvements on it.

Mr. Boland

Is there any fundamental difference?

Mr. Flynn

I think so.

Mr. Boland

Could the Minister indicate what the fundamental difference is?

Mr. Flynn

I would rather not be drawn on it now. I think that is not the way to get the best advantage from any reorganisation on local government that we have considered. I would like to have the Government see it and clear it.

Mr. Boland

In other words it has not gone to Government yet.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Pat McCartan, a final question.

Mr. McCartan

I wonder if I could draw on an aspect of Question No. 41 in the name of Deputy De Rossa. There appears to be a stronger view in the original reply of the powers and functions of local authorities to engage in commercial activity. Could I suggest that the Minister might circularise local authorities on that aspect particularly in view of the shortfall of funds for local authorities in each of the years' Estimates available? The other matter I wanted to raise——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy. I asked for brevity.

Mr. McCartan

In view of the scale of what the Minister is talking about can he assist us in any way as to when he might have his proposed legislation in place for consideration by the House?

Mr. Flynn

If I give an indication about that I am going to be asked every month from now on why it did not arrive on that day. Rather than do that, the Deputy might put down a question again for the next time environmental questions are taken. As far as job creation and promotion are concerned, I have had a close look at section 77 of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, which gives quite substantial powers to local authorities to promote, assist, and carry out developments themselves. Under section 14 of that Act they can encourage tourism and become involved with development companies. They have a wide range of powers. Maybe it is a question of ultra vires which has prohibited them from going the full distance in that. I intend to remove that inhibition.

Mr. McCartan

Many managers——

An Ceann Comhairle

Question No. 4. I have called the next question. We cannot remain unduly long on any one question.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

No. 4, Deputy Deenihan's question.