This is a different matter altogether. One cannot compare the effects of the consumption of a bottle or two of cider — because a person's capacity to consume may vary considerably from another's — with the effects occasioned by viewing a really filthy video nasty and the damage that can do to young people's minds. I do not think there is any comparison to be drawn between the two.
Classification does give information to a hirer or purchaser of video films as to the groups of people for whom its viewing is suitable. Under the system we propose this information will not be provided by our Film Censor. As most tapes come here from the United Kingdom there will be an indication on them, from the United Kingdom, from their labelling, as to the age groups for whom their viewing is suitable. The Irish Videogram Association also have issued guidelines for the consumer as to the content of cassettes. This will give information to parents with regard to age, suitability and so on.
Practically every Deputy who contributed to the debate spoke about the efforts made by the Irish Videogram Association to improve standards within their industry. I too am aware of their efforts. Indeed I have been very impressed by their outlook on the industry and their determination to take action themselves. I should add also that there has been most fruitful co-operation between the association and my Department in the drafting of this Bill. I want to acknowledge that publicly.
A number of speakers referred to copyright and video piracy. The Irish Videogram Association have commented frequently on difficulties encountered in this area. It is admitted by everybody that legislation on this is a matter for my colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I understand that consultations have taken place between the association and representatives of the Department of Industry and Commerce.
As regards enforcement of copyright, I should say that last year I arranged a meeting between the appropriate Garda representative and representatives of the association to ensure that there would continue to be a flow of information between the Garda and the association concerning possible breaches of the relevant legislation. The arguments advanced about abuse of copyright constituted one of the main reasons I changed the Bill in the course of its passage through the Seanad, to provide for a licensing system for people who sell or rent out video films. Many Senators argued that a licensing system would constitute a strong weapon against abuse of copyright. I considered those arguments carefully and, as a result, decided to amend the Bill accordingly. I understand from my colleague, the Minister for Industry and Commerce that legislation on copyright is in the final stages of drafting and that it is hoped to introduce a Bill in December. Its provisions should be helpful to us also.
Also in relation to copyright I might draw Deputies' attention to section 23 which deals with forfeiture of licences. One of the grounds for forfeiture of licence is conviction for offences under the laws relating to copyright. I am satisfied that this will prove an effective deterrent to piracy and copyright in so far as such deterrents are appropriate to the provisions of this Bill.
Deputy Barrett and others referred to developments in the area of television and satellite channels in particular. Of course material available on television is a matter for my colleague, the Minister for Communications. My Department have been in consultation with his Department on this point. With the major developments and expansion in television broadcast services, particularly those of a trans-frontier satellite-transmitted nature, naturally there is some concern about the standard of programming that may become available. I should say this concern is not unique to Ireland. It is recognised, within Europe, that the only effective way to ensure that reasonable standards of broadcasting are maintained is by taking action at international level. Here I should say that Deputy Colley drew a very clear scenario of the difficulties we shall encounter in equating our standards with those of, say, Italy or Germany. There is a very real problem there. As Deputy Colley and Deputy Barrett are aware, the EC proposes to issue a directive aimed at establishing basic standards which member state will be required to impose on broadcasting services originating in their own states. Similarly, the Council of Europe which embraces a wider geographical area than the European Community is preparing a convention on trans-frontier broadcasting. We are also monitoring this carefully. I hope these will be successful. I have my worries and my doubts and I can say that I truly share the view, held I am sure by Deputy Barrett and Deputy Colley, that many people involved in satellite television are in it solely for the money. Whether these big multinational companies will be able to influence thinking is another matter but it is something about which we must be very wary and be prepared to deal with as best we can in order to protect our own standards and society.
In the light of what I have said I am sure the Members of the House would agree that the system we are putting in place for video films is in keeping with the thinking on controls in relation to television services in Europe. I agree with Deputy Colley when she said that video films are a very potent medium. Obviously pictures give a clearer image than the written word and certainly moving pictures are even more powerful again. Video films are the most powerful and most potent of all. Not only is there a moving film but, the facilities are there to stop the film and to replay a scene over and over again. This, too, is a source of concern to us having regard to the sort of film we all agree is most objectionable and wish to prevent from being shown.
Reference was also made to the responsibility of parents. Each and every one of us would agree, a number of Members of my own party referred strongly to this, on the role which parents have to play. We can legislate all we like but we will find it very difficult to close all the loopholes. I think it was Deputy Mooney who said unless parents play their role and fulfil their parental responsibilities, we cannot be sure of any degree of success. I hope that they do. This Bill will mark an enormous improvement on the present position but as I said, we can only go so far. Parents will have to come the rest of the way with us.
Deputy Taylor and Deputy De Rossa spoke about the possibility that one of the effects of this Bill will be harder and more restrictive censorship. This will not be the case. As I said in my opening remarks, the Bill was drafted in keeping with existing legislation dealing with censorship of publications and cinema films. I draw the attention of Deputies specifically to section 3 (3) of the Bill which provides that the censor may not refuse to supply a certificate in respect of a video work in respect of which a general or limited certificate has been granted under the Censorship of Films Act, 1973 to 1970. This subsection was inserted in the Seanad and demonstrates clearly that the effect of this Bill will not be harder or more restrictive censorship.
I agree with Deputy Mooney when she said that a combination of brutal sex and violence in video films is extremely dangerous. That is a view we all share — that this type of film causes harm to some people. As I said at the outset, these films lead to crimes against women, the most obvious victims. There are others also. Not so very long ago I read the report of a court case in The Sunday Times in which a person was convicted of rape. The convicted person said to the judge that on the night prior to the dreadful event he watched a number of pornographic video films and the judge drew the conclusion from what he had heard during the course of the trial that watching those particular video films was enough to push that person to do what he did.
Deputy De Rossa said that only a small number of impressionable people would be led into crime through watching violent films. That may be so, but society has a right to be protected from this danger. As I said previously in the other House, in publiic and in an interview on radio recently with John Bowman, the Bill has to strike a balance and we are all genuinely trying to strike the right balance between the good of society as a whole and individual rights. That is the key to the success of this Bill and we have been very careful in its drafting to let that be our guiding principle. As was pointed out, it is necessary to curtail to some extent individual rights in order to provide more protection for society as a whole. We are not going to deprive individuals of anything important or curtail the supply of video films; nobody wants to do anything like that.
I am sure that not many Deputies want to see the type of video films we are talking about but it was suggested to me prior to the commencement of this debate, during the course of the debate in the other House and again today that the type of film we are talking about is new to quite a number of the Members of this House. I can truly say that they were new to me. So that I would know exactly what we were talking about the officials in my Department insisted that I should sit down and look at some of these films. I was told of the three types of film — soft pornographic, hard core pornography and video nasty. I truly thought there was no need for me to look at any of these films as one would have a fair idea of what these films are like. It was suggested that if I were going to view these films that I would look at one of each type. I looked at the time factor involved as time is an important element. These films last between one and one and a half hours but I was able to go through the three films in about 15 minutes because truly they were sickening. I suggest that those Deputies who are not present, in particular Deputy De Rossa and Deputy Taylor who was more worried about a statement he attributed to the Irish Council of Civil Liberties and in the process forgetting other statements made by other very responsible bodies such as the Council for the Status of Women, who have doubts that we may be going too far and might be tipping the balance in the wrong direction, that they are welcome to come to the Department of Justice at a time that suits them to view some of the filth and dirt we are talking about. I think they will then be able to clear their political consciences of any slight doubts they may have in regard to whether we have struck the right balance in the interests of the community as a whole.
Deputy De Rossa questioned whether the watching of violent or pornographic video films could have an adverse effect on viewers and lead to crime. It is notoriously difficult to obtain conclusive evidence on the connection between watching video films and actual crime but I am satisfied that the watching of extremely violent films cannot but have a detrimental effect on viewers. I am satisfied that in some cases the viewing of such material can have the effect of pushing very impressionable people over the edge, and in the process causing them to commit crime. I have already referred to the 1986 report of the American Attorney General and the fact that the findings of that report completely reversed the thinking arising from an earlier report presented in 1970 by the same office. We have to learn from that experience.
Deputy Flanagan remarked that it is important that all video retail outlets be registered. This, of course, will be achieved through the licensing system provided for in the Bill. I can reassure Deputy Flanagan and Deputy Roche, who also made the point, about the renting of video films from vans. I think Deputy Colley also mentioned the van problem, too, the mobile shop. The interpretation section of the Bill, section 1, takes care of this point by including the word "vehicle" in the definition of premises.
Deputy Roche spoke very clearly about the balance between civil liberties and the public good and the way that balance is reflected in the Bill. He also said we have a duty to introduce laws which are workable. This latter point is very important in the context of the debate about whether to have a classification system. I would ask those who favour a classification system to reflect on whether it could be implemented effectively. In my view it could not and to introduce such a system would lead to ineffective legislation and it would be a waste of time for the Garda to try to enforce it.
Some Deputies spoke about the resources necessary to implement the Bill. The explanatory memorandum accompanying the Bill gives some details on this particular point. Details were given of the extra staff who will be employed in the Film Censor's office and of the extra equipment which will be provided for that office. The costs of the extra staff and equipment will, of course, be met not by the taxpayers — as Deputy Colley and, I think, Deputy Barrett pointed out earlier on — but from the charges made by the Film Censor. This point was discussed at an early stage with representatives of the trade and there was agreement from the start that all costs arising from the Bill would be met by fees. This is provided for in section 32 of the Bill.
A question was asked about what happens after a film is submitted to the censor — will he be able to cope with the volume of films submitted to him? Deputy Colley, Deputy McDowell and a number of other Deputies raised that question. There are two points on this. First, the censor will have assistant censors working to him and, secondly, the Film Censor or his assistant need not view each film. In many cases a decision can be made on the basis of the title or the censor's knowledge of, say, the producer that the work is unobjectionable and that a supply certificate may be granted. This is a matter we can tease out on Committee Stage. As I said earlier, it is hoped that as and from day one of the enactment of the Bill, the censor will start clearing all new videos as they come on stream and try to deal with what is already there. Deputy Colley asked if I could give any idea of the time. I cannot as of now but bearing in mind that the charges will be totally met from costs, there will not be any question of a lack of manpower or resources. They will just have to clear them. If we are to achieve what we want to achieve it is important that they get stuck into the backlog as fast as they can.
