Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 13 Dec 1988

Vol. 385 No. 6

Private Members' Business. - Unlicensed Broadcasting.

Mr. R. Bruton

I move:

In view of the disruption that will be caused to public viewing and listening choice by the termination of unlicensed radio, and unlicensed television deflector systems long before alternatives are available, that Dáil Éireann urges the Minister for Communications to introduce an amendment to the Wireless and Telegraphy Act, 1988 to permit him discretion in deciding dates after the 31st December, 1988, on which that Act would come into force in respect of unlicensed radio stations and of UHF deflector systems.

I would like to request permission to divide my time with a number of other Deputies from the Fine Gael Party, Deputies Carey, Flaherty, Deenihan, Donnellan and Kenny.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. R. Bruton

In moving this motion I would like to make it clear that my party will facilitate the Minister in every way possible in passing the appropriate legislation if he agrees to introduce it in this House either tomorrow or before the end of this session. It is important that we ask the Government to adopt a commonsense approach in respect of this issue. We are trying to phase out unlicensed broadcasting operations and all parties in this House recognise the desirability of the period between the closure of the old and the opening of the new being as short as possible. Indeed, the Minister has repeatedly stated that this is desirable. It is now clear that the introduction of the licensing system for the distribution of multichannel television signals in rural areas is still a long way off.

In May of this year the Minister promised the publication of a policy paper in which many of the issues which have been raised in respect of the MMDS system and its feasibility would be assessed in detail but as of yet he has not been able to publish that paper, nor has the Minister been able to publish the regulations which have to be put in place before licences could be issued. As Deputies are aware those regulations have to be presented before this House within 21 days of their publication when Deputies will have an opportunity to decide whether they are appropriate and whether they should give them their assent. It is clear that those two issues will take considerable time to deal with. Obviously they are causing problems in the Department because the Minister was quite ebullient in May about his hopes of bringing these before us but we have not seen them yet.

Because of the lingering health concerns people have expressed about microwaves, be they founded or not, as we have yet to find out from the Minister's policy paper, there is no doubt that equally this will cause problems for planning permission for such a procedure. I am convinced there will be a very long delay even to get to the position where MMD operators can start installations. Installation will be a major task as the Minister indicated to the House the scale of coverage of the areas to be dealt with is going to run to about £200 million. We are talking about a very major investment — £300 per household to be served and several million pounds in providing the equipment to distribute it. There is no doubt that the 150,000 people who are going to lose their BBC and ITV television service on 31 December will have to wait for a very long time, probably 18 months at least, before they will have an alternative television system. If the people affected lived in Kinsealy or Swords I believe we would feel much more intimately what it means. The Minister must be aware of the grave concern that is growing in the areas affected and we must show due consideration for that concern.

The is the most important issue which we have to face. These people have in good faith contributed to a system which provides them with a service which they have a right to expect and the Minister is rightly trying to provide a system which will give a similar service, and in time further channel choice, to people in rural areas. It is important that an assessment is done and that people are satisfied with the proposal the Minister is making. It is also important that there is a sensible phase-out from the old to the new system in this area. The abrupt stopping of the old system on 31 December will do nothing but bring into disrepute what the Minister is trying to achieve.

In the area of radio broadcasting I was glad to see that the Minister was prompted into some activity at the week-end following the tabling of this motion.

Miss Flaherty

Very impressive.

Minister for Communications (Mr. R. Burke)

The Deputy has a brass neck.

Mr. Carey

The Minister is getting publicity from it.

Mr. R. Bruton

The Minister expressed his hope that some of the 25 proposed licensed radio stations would be in operation by March. To be honest I do not think that is a realistic hope. The Minister has to consider what has to be done following 20 January. A very long schedule will have to be completed before we have radio broadcasting to replace the unlicensed stations now available. First, the commission will have to choose suitable candidates and the Minister knows the complexity of the conditions which were laid down. Very complex criteria were set for selecting applicants from among the now expected 200 or more applications for 25 places. These applicants will have to be assessed and interviewed separately to see what they have to offer. Their expertise, experience, the programme quality they are offering and ownership will have to be investigated in great detail under the terms of the Act. The extent of their news coverage, whether they should bear a 20 per cent quota and so on, has to be decided. This is a very detailed investigation which will have a very important long term bearing on broadcasting choice in this country in the years to come.

It would be very serious if that was rushed, under the Minister's urging to get things going quickly, in a way that what we in this House so carefully put together on Committee and Second Stages of the Act was not observed adequately. The Minister knows that the commission have to draw up codes of practice governing fair news coverage, decency, advertising, party political broadcasts and fees and royalties payable by the stations. None of these things will happen overnight and the commission will need time to put these codes of practice in place so that we will have a service we can stand over. After that the stations will have to obtain a correct location and planning permission which as the Minister knows can take a minimum of two months to get. More likely this permission will take four months and if there are requests for further information or appeals this may take even longer. The stations will have to get their equipment cut to the frequency they are being allocated and I have been told that the delay in getting this equipment could be up to two months. There is no way in which the March deadline can be achieved unless the Minister hands a licence to someone who is already in operation. It is clear that the Minister does not have any great meas on that. I believe one would be misleading the House to suggest that the March date is realistic. The reality is that unless the 31st date is modified half of the current radio audience who are listening to unlicensed stations will have no choice for a minimum of six months or perhaps longer because many stations will be starting from scratch.

I should like to point out that there is nothing sacrosanct about 31 December. The Minister changed from a March date to a December date and there is no international obligation, agreement or anything of that sort which suggests that 31 December has any great significance. In June the House agreed to that date having heard assurances from the Minister about the speed with which he was going to publish assessments on MMDs and regulations about MMDs and the speed with which he was going to appoint the commission and have licensed broadcasters operating before the end of the year, as he told the Seanad. That has not been realised and naturally problems have arisen along the way. It would be a pity if the Minister felt so bound by legislation that he could not come back into the House and say it has not been possible to achieve what he assured the House in June he would be able to achieve, and change that date so that he would have discretion to introduce a date of enforcement for this Act in an orderly way and in tandem with the introduction of licensed broadcasting and licensed television distribution systems.

As the Minister pointed out it has to be borne in mind that it is the Legislature here who failed for a period of ten years — half of them when Fianna Fáil were in Government and half when Fine Gael were in Government — to respond to a demand which we all know existed. Unlicensed deflectors and unlicensed radio filled that vacuum and because they have continued largley without official obstruction since then, it would be totally misleading to suggest that they are somehow lawless pariahs who have been feeding off us and should be outcast. They have provided a service, employed many talented people and have listeners and supporters in many households up and down the country.

At the weekend the Minister argued that the extension from 31 December would undermine the credibility of the Government's broadcasting policy. I say to the Minister that surely the opposite is the case. The credibility of this legislation will depend on the public's respect for its reasonableness. If the Minister proceeds to officiously enforce his powers by taking all of these alternatives off the air before there is a substitute for them, all he will succeed in doing is bringing the new law into disrepute. Obviously non-enforcement of the law would be wrong and that is why we are asking the Minister to do the sensible thing and change by way of a simple amendment the enforcement date which has put him into a straitjacket and from which he should release himself. As I said we will be happy to facilitate the passage of an amending Bill if the Minister introduces it. If the Minister is not going to accept this motion he should make it clear to the House whether he is going to proceed to use his powers and issue notices which will deprive all of these operations of electricity, telephones and so on, close them down and leave many people without a choice.

Mr. Carey

I join Deputy Bruton in his appeal to the Minister to——

Mr. Lawlor

Break the law.

Mr. Carey

——change the date of the enforcement of the regulations from 31 December to whatever accommodating date he can find. It is interesting that it was Deputy Lawlor who interrupted me. The problems posed by the implementation of this legislation will be at their worst in the west. There will be a shut down from Donegal to Kerry. In my area notice has been issued to close down on 17 December. During the term of office of the previous Government we had experience of a shutdown in Limerick and the ensuring repercussions. In asking the Minister to extend the date I am not asking for something extraordinary. Our motion really compliments the Government on their efficiency in bringing in this legislation but there does not appear to be time to bring forward the regulations and get the details sorted out, prior to the closedown of illegal operators, which would enable the continuation of the facilities which exist.

I speak for the west because these changes will affect us most of all. The deflector system in our area is used to bring BBC, Channel 4 and UTV to the most remote areas. It is of benefit to the west economically because visitors to an isolated area can have the choice of six channels. The Minister has indicated that the new MMDS system will be introduced and in view of the constraints which he indicated are to be put on it, it will be some time before all the details are resolved. During a debate in this House on 27 May last the Minister made a solemn promise. He stated:

I can assure the Deputies that I have noted their points and I will put together a properly documented case answering the various points.

He has not even done that for the trade. In our constituency it will cost at least £750,000 to set up a station to look after the western area. The Minister of State who is present is a native of Galway and he knows that the area along the western coast is very hilly. The MMDS system is only of benefit on the flat.

The Minister should listen not only to this side of the House but also to Fianna Fáil Deputies. If there is the loss of these three channels over the Christmas period the heat will be a lot greater than the Government are experiencing on the rod licence issue. I would ask the Minister to reconsider the matter and to set a reasonable date. The date proposed — 31 December — is not reasonable.

Miss Flaherty

I congratulate Deputy Bruton on bringing this matter before the House. I will confine my remarks largely to local radio as it affects Dublin. My colleagues will be dealing with the situation in the west and in other parts of the country. It is proposed under this legislation to implement before the end of the year the licensing and regularisation of local radio. This is to be welcomed and we would be broadly supportive of the general Government line on it. However, to proceed with the regulatory or repressive side without allowing for licensed radio to get under way would be very detrimental. It is symptomatic of the attitude that pirate radio operators are inherently lawless. They are essentially people who developed an area in advance of legislation. Many Governments must take the responsibility for our slowness in responding and regulating matters.

Mr. O'Sullivan

There has been legislation since 1926.

Miss Flaherty

The legislation did not relate to this era. Local independent radio is a welcome and exciting development which is growing enormously. The idea that people involved in it are essentially lawless is absolutely ludicrous and is not borne out by the way in which the public perceive them or the way in which many of them handle themselves, with some frightful exceptions. There are always exceptions in every walk of life. They provide a very valuable service for this city. They are popular and well liked. They provided an access for classes of people who by and large did not find their accents and interests represented on the national airwaves at that time. RTE have in this respect followed independent radio. Radio was made accessible as a profession and occupation to many more people. These stations have provided employment. There are people who have been working for perhaps five years in local independent radio and have taken out mortgages. Some of them who are constituents of mine have been in touch with me and they are applying for jobs in Britain because they have been given protective notice and are due to end their work by 31 December. They are facing a very unsettling Christmas.

In Britain there is an extraordinary development of local radio. Sixteen new satellite channels are coming on stream which are capable of beaming into Ireland at a time when our airwaves will be silent. There will be no outlet for Irish talent or independent radio activity and these new channels will develop markets and audiences which it will be very hard to win back when we eventually license our own people. It is extremely important that there should be a smooth transition and that the timescale should be as tight as possible in order to maintain employment and keep talent in the country. If they were assured that there would be at most a gap of two months, most people would stay in the country and await the outcome, despite the difficulties involved.

What is the situation at present? The Minister broke his silence at the week-end, three weeks before the implementation of the regulations. We have not heard a word about timescales until this motion was put down. It obviously gave the Minister a kick in the pants and the impetus to set a timescale and make a statement. I believe statements are on record from members of the broadcasting commission that the likely date for the issue of licences would be the end of next year. The Minister indicated at the weekend that it would be in about six weeks' time. Perhaps even that is not a desirable development. We do not want a hiatus between the closing down and the opening afterwards, but also we do not want the commission making hasty decisions about the issuing of licences which will be vitally important for the quality of the service on offer. It is not desirable that the Minister should put pressure on the commission to move faster than it is wise for them to go. In that event we would have rushed and unsatisfactory decisions.

For all those reasons it would be wise for the Minister to pause and consider taking the kind of action proposed here. The attitude in the Department towards illegal radio has always been hostile. I can understand that, but the Minister should be able to stand up and insist on a proper balance. We have a responsibility in that it has taken us as a Legislature such a long time to organise for independent radio and we should try to ensure that the transition is as smooth as possible. We are not talking about an activity which in its essence is illegal. It is only illegal because we have not provided a legal framework within which these stations can operate. The public enjoy listening to these stations and we should not penalise them for periods that might extend to six, seven, eight or nine months. British and European channels will be beaming in increasingly over the next 12 months while we are denying our own industry an opportunity to compete on an equal footing. I hope the Minister will support this motion.

Mr. Deenihan

In supporting this motion I do not want to promote illegal radio or television stations. The general overall legislation will work provided sufficient time is given for reputable interest groups to get themselves organised. This is the main thrust of our motion. There is an unhelpful attitude towards isolated rural communities along the west coast. Surely a system can be devised to allow screening of the programmes until a technical solution has been found.

I would like to refer specifically to local radio and how the legislation will affect local communities. Firstly, local radio operations provide very necessary jobs along the west coast which is devastated by unemployment and emigration. For example, in one station in Killarney over 15 people are employed and pay full PRSI and other necessary contributions. Unlike our national airwaves, these stations provide very cheap advertising for the showband business and give a sufficient amount of air time to local show-bands and people who make records. The closure of those stations will have a damaging effect on the showband business and on the sale of records which are recorded by Irish artists. Those people are very concerned about the closure of the stations. I am surprised that people within the Fianna Fáil Party who have a vested interest in this business are not shouting more about it. If the boot was on the other foot they would be kicking hard.

I do not have to remind the House that local radio stations provide a very essential service for old people in isolated rural areas. I am very familiar with this aspect in Kerry. I know a number of families who have been devastated by emigration and the only comfort the parents have is listening to the local radio station. They feel that national radio, which devotes much of its air time to Dublin, the midlands and the east coast, is remote from them. They look to the local radio station to provide them with entertainment and local news. It also provides a very essential service for the sick and for old people who live in remote areas. People who are confined to their houses will not be able to do without this very essential service. A major aspect of my argument is that old people and rural communities will suffer most from the closure of these stations. I admit that they are illegal but when they are taken off the air there will be a void that will not be filled for a long period, possibly six to nine months. I appeal to the Minister to consider extending the date for their closure. As indicated in the arguments already made by Deputies Carey, Bruton and Flaherty, this is possible within the legislative framework.

Mr. Donnellan

The western dialect is being expressed very clearly here tonight. We are talking about two matters in regard to this issue, first, local radio and, secondly, the deflector television system. Many people listen to local radio stations. The one that is applicable to the area in which I live is Radio West. Many people will be very unhappy when that station is put off the air at midnight on 31 December. It would not be too bad if a guarantee was given that within a very short time some other system would be provided but so far as I can gather this will take some time. When we are told by the Department — I have a certain amount of experience in that area — that something will be done within a month, two months or three months, we can be sure that it will not be done until much later. I would say to the Minister for Communications, Deputy Burke, that it is necessary to make some amendment to the Act to allow these stations remain in operation until such a time as they are replaced with the proposed new stations. People do not want to have to wait a long time between the closure of these stations and the setting up of the new stations.

I am most interested in the television system known as the VHF deflector system, which is in operation in the west at present. That system is transmitted to homes along the western seaboard from a transmitter on a high hill. It costs £15 a year plus a small amount for a special type of aerial. Many people do not fully appreciate the service they are getting under this system. The people who live in the Dublin area and on the eastern coast receive RTE 1, RTE 2, BBC I, BBC 2, UTV and Channel Four without having to have any additional equipment on their homes. The English channels are beamed directly from Britain and there is no problem. The problem arises in my area and in many other areas. In my area the service is transmitted from Mount Mary, near Creggs in Glenamaddy, by a man called Joe O'Neill. That service is also transmitted to the Mayo area and down as far as Gort where one of the Ministers of State resides. That Minister receives that illegal service, as does another Minister of State who is here tonight, Deputy Treacy.

The Minister has said the pirate stations must close on 31 December but that the VHF system can remain in operation. That is not good enough. The legislation that was passed by this House imposes very heavy fines on the people concerned. Those people cannot take the chance of operating the system after the appointed date because firstly, the owner of the land in question can be prosecuted; secondly, the suppliers of the power, the ESB, can be fined and, thirdly, the person who operates the system can be fined. It is not good enough for the Minister to say that he will turn a blind eye to that matter. There are very few Members of this House who could talk with authority on the subject. Indeed I cannot accept the limited education I received from the people who operate the system. What is proposed is the introduction of a system known as the MMDS, that is the multipoint microwave distribution system. There is no guarantee that people living in rural areas will ever benefit from that system.

Mr. Carey

Correct.

Mr. Donnellan

It is a pity that more of us did not contribute to the relevant legislation in the course of its passage through this House. I see the Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Commerce, Deputy Brennan, listening to me attentively. It is my hope that he and his colleagues will react to what I am saying. I know that the Minister of State spends some of his vacations in the west. The present recipients of this illegal system will not be recipients when the Minister of State goes there next year, when possibly he will have to answer some questions.

Mr. Carey

He may not go.

Minister of State at the Department of Industry and Commerce (Mr. S. Brennan)

We will play golf instead.

Mr. Donnellan

The Minister of State can make a laugh of it if he wishes but there are many people in those rural areas who will not make a laugh of it. I have five children who love to watch this or that programme. Much as we may despise the British for a number of things they do it has to be said that they transmit some very interesting programmes one might like to view occasionally. Therefore it is necessary that we in the west have the same access to television programmes as those people living in the Dublin area, or within the Pale, to use a much bandied phrase.

For general information purposes I should add that the new system involves an investment of at least £300 per household in addition to other charges of approximately £100 annually. It is possible that the motion tabled by Deputy Richard Bruton here this evening will be passed. There was also the motion with regard to Barrington's Hospital in Limerick which was successful. Yet there was no action taken in regard to that matter. I remember also a few years ago controversy about an industry in Kilkenny, the Greenhills towel factory, when the Government got a kick in the pants but when no action was taken either. In this case there will be considerable public reaction unless the relevant Act is amended to allow some operators carry on, as some of them will do indefinitely because the signal can never be replaced in some cases.

Mr. Kenny

I am in favour of the motion before the House. There has been a tendency in this House over the years to introduce and pass laws that cannot be implemented. I think immediately of the rod licensing laws, litter laws, laws relating to dog licences and so on. A point in favour of the Minister for Communications — who did not come down in the the last shower — is that he was able to introduce the legislation which the Fine Gael Party, when in Government, were unable to do for a variety of reasons. Points against the Minister are that he introduced no assessment in respect of the MMDS system; nor did he introduce any regulations which should be laid before this house for 21 days; there was a four months delay before he appointed the commission to deal with radio stations and he has accepted applications for licences in respect of television transmissions without the regulations having been laid before the House for 21 days, as is necessary.

It will be fear of the law that will knock out the deflector systems and local radio at the end fo December. Those who took the initiative, had the motivation and interest to provide a service which the State was unable to provide for many years, will now be liable to £10,000 fine or two years in jail. This means they will not continue their operations on account of that fear after 31 December. As has been pointed out, there are penalties for secondary offences in respect of those who supply access, power or whatever.

Local radio on the west coast from Malin Head to Cork has provided a valuable service, local news, information and so on and can be beefed up from a balanced point of view. I accept that the position vis-à-vis radio is not as serious as that pertaining to the deflectors because the commission are considering applications. For example, there are three applications from County Mayo which should not take long to decide. Mayo County Council passed a unanimous resolution — that is, Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael members — six months ago against the MMDS system being introduced at all. Last evening 500 people attended a public meeting in Kiltimagh. It is one of the contradictions of Irish life that many of those people, for instance vehemently opposed to extradition and all that Mrs. Thatcher and her Government stand for, would say to one: whatever you do, keep the BBC service coming into our houses because it is a valuable service and we appreciate it. Fianna Fáil should show some commonsense in this regard. The Minister should take cognisance of the comments of Ministers and Deputies along the western seaboard because the public are speaking to them in relation to this important matter.

The present Minister for Communications has had extensive experience in politics. Some years ago he pulled a stroke in Wheatfield when he produced instant trees. He cannot produce instant satellite coverage or radio signals. In terms of the popularity of his party, which is quite high at present, I would advise him to seriously consider extending the remit of these operations until some time as an alternative becomes available. A 75-year old man in Blacksod, the next parish to New York, said to me, through a fog of pipe smoke: I like to watch snooker on the BBC; whatever you do do not put an end to that. It must be remembered that one-third of the people in that area are over the age of 65. If this little comfort is to be taken from them, then it will be seen to be discriminatory. I would ask that Fianna Fáil look at this from a commonsense point of view and extend the relevant date until such time as an alternative becomes available, when the agrument about the MMDS being the be-all of systems will no longer obtain. If there is not such an extension granted then I foresee a great deal of controversy. The issue is simple so far as rural people are concerned, that is that if one depresses the button on a television set and it does not work, there is something wrong. In this case if their screens are blank they will take it to mean that the Government have withdrawn that service. That is how they will view it. They do not understand the technical arguments of distribution systems, of microwave, wavelength allocations or whatever.

I hope the Government will take cognisance of the fact that 180,000 households are at present benefiting from this very valuable service and I would ask that it be extended.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

With your permission, Sir I should like to share my time with my collegue, Deputy Lawlor.

When I spoke on the Sound Broadcasting Bill I congratulated the Minister on having had the courage to introduce that legislation. In so doing he was tackling a problem that had been allowed fester over a ten year period, indeed one which successive Governments had failed to tackle, or had been unwilling to tackle, as was the case with the Coalition Government because of the political divisions within that Government on that issue. We had an admission of that fact this evening from Deputy Kenny, the first such admission in this House.

Mr. Carey

Not at all; it was a matter of laughter every day.

Miss Flaherty

It was not just three Governments but five or six successive ones.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The position that has obtained to date is that law-abiding citizens who refused to break the law in relation to broadcasting were penalised while those who thumbed their noses at the law were allowed escape scot free. I refer to the pirate radio stations who for ten years amassed significant financial gains. There was simultaneously a genuine group of people who refused to get into broadcasting because, in so doing, they would be in breach of the law; because of their respect for that law, they remained aloof even though they had the capacity and capability to operate such radio stations. Because a situation has been allowed to proceed for ten years, a niche in the market has developed and these stations attracted a younger audience which were not being catered for. When it became obvious that the law was unenforceable the only rational thing to do was to change it. This minority Government came to office and grasped the nettle——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The Government took their courage in their hands, courage that was sadly lacking in the previous Administration.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The Minister with the courage of his convictions has now decided to regulate the process by introducing legislation which has been adopted by this House. In doing that the Minister introduced standards and regulations to ensure that applicants adhered to financial demands placed on them and to certain standards laid down by the Minister. The Minister also ensured that licences would only be granted to persons of character.

Mr. P. O'Malley

We supported the Minister on all of those points.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

By establishing the Commission the Minister showed that he was taking local radio outside of political patronage.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would ask the pirate stations to keep quiet while Deputy O'Keeffe is speaking.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Every opportunity will be given to Deputy O'Malley and Deputy O'Sullivan.

Miss Flaherty

We are looking for a change in Standing Orders.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We must give absolute attention to Deputy O'Keeffe.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

Nobody can now complain about the character, the competence and the fairmindedness of the Commission selected by the Minister.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

They have already shown that they are determined to carry out their role expeditiously. This Government have shown since coming to office that once they make a decision in the interests of the people they will withstand all pressure to change direction.

Miss Flaherty

Like the INTO case?

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

From an economic point of view we have only to look at the results to see that they have been totally correct in every instance.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

This Private Members Bill is once more urging the Government to change their minds and again the Opposition are crumbling before pressure groups as they did during their short term of office of four and a half years.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The Opposition are again looking after vested interests and crumbling under pressure. They should have a bit of spirit and stand up for this. They know that the Minister is doing the correct thing and that it should have been done ten years ago.

When addressing the NIHE Conference last Saturday the Minister when discussing the future of broadcasting confirmed that there would be no extension of the end of year deadline for pirate stations. I laud that decision. To grant an extension would undermine the credibility of the Government in what they are setting out to do. It was fitting that the Minister at that conference warned pirates that any pirate operating after that date would automatically be barred from getting a franchise. Coupled with this resolve is a promise that some of the legal stations will be on the air by the end of March. The gap in service being provided is not inordinate. While the pressure from illegal stations is understandable it begs the question — should we once again allow ourselves to crumble under pressure from pirate radio stations?

Miss Flaherty

What about little old ladies in Kerry and in my constituency? Why should they be punished?

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

Stations have been operating illegally for years. Is it not right, even at this late stage to ensure some respect for the law, by closing them down?

Mr. Carey

For two years?

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

Let us now watch with interest to see them observing the law.

Miss Flaherty

They have given protective notice to all their employees. There will be hundreds more on the boat.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

In terms of advertising, the pirate stations will have reaped major financial gains over the Christmas period. It is well known that in the early months of the year there is a retrenchment in the amount of money spent on advertising. From my contacts with illegal stations, realising that the major ones will be on the air by the end of March, I know that they are not too unhappy with that scenario.

Being a Cork man I could not allow the occasion to pass without welcoming the extension of broadcasting hours to Cork local radio station. I thank the Minister for the astute decision. I recall bringing a group of staff members from the station to meet the Minister last June and the Minister promised them that he would give them an extension of radio hours.

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

Why did he not give them 24 hours, like other stations?

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The Minister has now delivered on that promise.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

Just give me a couple of seconds Deputy O'Sullivan and I will deal with you.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The Deputy was in Government for four and a half years and during that time under existing legislation, he could have granted them an extension and the Deputy failed to do so, to his eternal shame.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The former Minister now comes in here tonight castigating me, saying that the Minister should give them 24 hours. The Deputy has not a leg to stand on.

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

Who set up Cork local radio?

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

Everybody in Cork knows that when Deputy O'Sullivan had the opportunity to grant an extension he failed to do so. The Deputy should not come in here tonight to tell me that we should give them 24 hours.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Whatever about Cork local radio, the debate is not confined to Cork. Could we broaden it a little and not invite Deputy O'Sullivan to reply now. The Deputy will get the opportunity tomorrow.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

The Minister has now delivered on the promise given on that day. The decision puts into perspective the inactivity of the Coalition Ministers from Cork over a period of four and a half years when they had an opportunity to give such an extension.

Miss Flaherty

Deputy O'Sullivan was very active, in fact too active.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

Nobody from that side of the House——

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

Check the record.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

——can now say to us "give them 24 hours" when they did not give them even a half an hour.

Mr. T. O'Sullivan

It is not true.

Mr. M. Higgins

It is not true.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

This station has continued to operate legally over a long period but at a major disadvantage in terms of advertising by comparison with the illegal stations that are operating over a 24 hour period. Because of the time constraints, the stations obviously found it extremely difficult to be viable. By closing down the pirate stations at the end of December, Cork local radio station is being given an opportunity to gain some advantage in advertising revenue. By extending their hours of broadcasting, the large audience that they have had up to now will also be extended. That is a very significant development for Cork. I am glad that the Minister has also plugged the gap in Dublin by giving extension to Dublin Millennium Radio.

Mr. Carey

And close down the west. That is it.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

I would even go further——

Mr. Carey

In Glenamaddy.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

——in suggesting to the Minister that, in order for Cork local radio to compete, he should consider seriously extending the hours into week-end broadcasting. They will be competing with stations over a 24 hour period and it is only right that they should be given that opportunity. I said that I would allow my colleague, Deputy Lawlor, to contribute and he will deal specifically with the MMDS.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Lawlor, to conclude before 8.28 p.m.

Mr. Lawlor

First, I am somewhat amazed, as a member of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges regarding Private Members' Time for which there is great competition, with the Whips of the Fine Gael and other parties making their cases for putting motions before this House, that the Fine Gael Party should see it as prudent and essential that they take up their valuable Private Members' Time with this issue.

Could I briefly suggest with regard to local radio in the capital city that the chaos and risks that have existed for the past number of years are quite unacceptable and intolerable. It had reached the stage in parts of my constituency that some of the emergency services were in danger. Ambulance short wave services and other very essential telecommunications networks, such as those of the Garda authorities, were all at certain times having some problem with their networks because of totally uncontrolled and illegal broadcasting. Some order was urgently necessary. To be fair to Deputy Bruton, recently on radio he discussed this matter of a Private Members' motion and accepted fully that his party in government with the Labour Party just could not get agreement, despite how desirable it was that some progress should be made on this issue. We have now put legislation through. Is there anything more beneficial to an urgent debate than having a deadline of 1 January? The allocation of licences, the matter of the commission, those who are interested in applying for licences, the whole range of people who will be involved from January 1 had better get moving and get moving very quickly and efficiently.

Miss Flaherty

Yes, but in a proper manner.

Mr. Lawlor

If there is any vacuum, there will be all the more pressure coming from those people that Deputy Carey and his other colleagues on the west coast are concerned about. Let decisive action take place.

Miss Flaherty

Or hasty decisions.

Mr. Lawlor

It is very relevant that we stick rigidly to the intent of the legislation. Are the Fine Gael Party seriously recommending to this House that people who ignore legislation passed in this House should be seriously considered with regard to legitimising their position and that they should be issued with licences? That would be quite incredible and totally unacceptable. It would set a very unacceptable precedent here.

Miss Flaherty

Postponing it.

Mr. P. O'Malley

They are operating illegally at the moment.

Mr. Lawlor

It is terrible that the law should be flouted by those who from January 1 would continue to act illegally.

Mr. P. O'Malley

They are acting illegally now.

Mr. Lawlor

They are and we intend doing something about that.

Mr. P. O'Malley

But the Deputy's party have not done it over the years. Nothing has been done.

Mr. Lawlor

We intend to deal decisively with the matter, standing up to parochial pressure and the political opportunism of the concocted services. We will get it right and we will do so as soon as practicable.

Mr. Carey

The Deputy would want to tell that to the people in Gurranabraher. Deputy O'Keeffe can go down to them, to the 3,000 or so people down there.

Mr. Lawlor

We went to the same sort of crowds.

Mr. B. O'Keeffe

Let Deputy Carey not be casting aspersions on the people of Gurranabraher.

Mr. Lawlor

It is up to Deputy Carey to uphold the laws of the land in this House when the voting takes place. Let him explain to those people that he failed miserably.

Mr. R. Bruton

We are seeking to change the law.

Mr. Lawlor

There is legislation in place. We are going to give it effect from 1 January and not a day later. That is the orderly way in which legislation should be implemented.

Mr. Carey

The Deputy could not say that loudly enough for me, because I will quote him chapter and verse. He is on the record now.

Mr. Lawlor

Exactly. I will go and meet anybody on the west coast and explain the merits of the case I am putting to the House here this evening.

Mr. Carey

Let the Deputy tell Deputy Daly that he will have no television service for Christmas.

Miss Flaherty

When are we going to have a legal system?

Mr. Lawlor

Deputy Daly has survived.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies, for the tenth time I would ask you not to interrupt. I would ask you to show constraint.

Mr. Carey

We have had good practice.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If the Deputy is not disposed to listen to the person in possession, he knows the alternative.

Mr. Carey

I do not think——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a rag ball debate here. The Deputy in possession must be listened to.

Mr. Lawlor

Exactly. The Chair's words are very relevant. The Deputies opposite want a rag ball situation from 1 January and they are not going to have it. This House and this Government are going to see that the legislation is implemented.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lawlor

I am amazed that the largest Opposition party would waste their time on Private Members' Business bleating to the Government to give it to the lobby that understandably will appear. That pressure is an advantage in getting the job done urgently. The Minister, the Department, the commission and all involved are determined to withstand pressure from Deputies from the west, from all sides of this House and——

Miss Flaherty

And Deputy Bruton.

Mr. Lawlor

——to get their act in order. With regard to the cable television system, is Deputy Carey advocating this ad hoc, inadequate technical service to continue? Does he want, alongside it, the Government to consider licensing those who are operating illegally to instal equipment to bring into being the 11 station service which this party in Government want to see provided to the people of the west coast? We want to enhance, upgrade and——

Mr. Carey

May I answer that, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, Deputy.

Mr. Lawlor

——and vastly extend the service they will get. That is why the determination is there, that the television system will be substantially upgraded, with a much more efficient MMDS system.

It is very relevant that we should press on vigorously with the intent in the legislation which is gone through the House. I have heard Deputies Carey and Donnellan on this and Deputy Jim Higgins pointed out that there is no doubt in his mind and his colleague from East Mayo will be making a very strong case to the Minister, based on the situation down there and on the threat of lack of service from 1 January. Would it not have been more prudent for the Fine Gael party to have come into the House in the month of January or February if they see no decisive action being taken and nothing being done? They could then put this business on the agenda for debate in this House. Why come in and pre-empt the situation and let it be imagined that there is some acceptability for the mishmash and chaos that have occurred on the local airwaves and in the TV service to the west coast? If defies logic, they have muddled and fuddled and failed miserably for four years, arguing among themselves, having actually introduced a Bill and run away from its getting a Second Reading. They were concerned that it might lead to the downfall of the previous Government. As I recall, a good friend and colleague, Deputy Cluskey of the Labour Party, at the time was very adamant that the content and the intent of the legislation would not progress through the House. Deputy Carey's colleague, then Minister——

Mr. R. Bruton

Where was Deputy Lawlor when we wanted to see legislation brought in?

Mr. Lawlor

I was over in party headquarters organising the bringing back of Fianna Fáil to Government.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lawlor

It worked out fairly well. Because of the inability of the previous Government to get legislation through the House the chaos continued——

Mr. M. Higgins

There has been chaos since 1926.

Mr. Lawlor

It is an achievement to get legislation through in a minority Government. Let us now finish the job and organise the airwaves properly. Let those who are now operating illegally apply formally for licences.

Mr. M. Higgins

Let us say a prayer for the public service.

Mr. Lawlor

I am sure Deputy Higgins would not like illegal private operators to be earning money from 1 January. We will be giving the Deputy's constituents an 11 station television network which we should welcome. Radio and television will be properly controlled.

Miss Flaherty

We are concerned about the timing.

Mr. Lawlor

RTE have been a good training ground for personnel now involved in local radio who were previously involved with pirate radios. Looking back, it is obvious that pirate radio stations filled a need which RTE were not prepared to provide. Millennium Radio is a good example of the strength, power and popularity of local radio.

Mr. Carey

Give an extension to Dublin and to hell with the west.

Mr. O'Sullivan

What about Cork?

Mr. Lawlor

The Minister's decision in regard to Cork was prudent and correct. I appreciate that the Deputy would like to see 24 hour broadcasting which, I hope, will come in due course. There are various commercial realities, staffing problems and so on——

Miss Flaherty

Are they a different breed in Cork?

Mr. Lawlor

Not at all.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If you persist, Deputy Flaherty, I will ask you to leave. You are turning the debate into a cattle mart with each person throwing in his or her bid. That is not allowed. This is my last warning to you.

Mr. Lawlor

It is most undesirable for Members to suggest that illegal activity should be endorsed and accepted from 1 January because there are many other areas where the same sort of illegal activities can develop.

Illegal radio stations have caused serious interference to emergency services which cannot be accepted or tolerated. One cannot predict what illegal stations will do. They may change frequencies and cause chaos as they did in my constituency in regard to emergency services. No Member should advocate that sort of thing. The Minister will deal with all the points raised forcefully and adequately. I fully accept the concern of people in the west in regard to television. Large meetings will be held and Deputy Carey will play no little part in ensuring——

Mr. Carey

Of course I will.

Mr. Lawlor

He will call on the Minister to take action so that his constituents will not be denied three or four channels and that people in good old republican County Clare will be able to look at the BBC as often as they like. We will have to move swiftly because the Department will be under extreme pressure to get the job done properly.

Mr. R. Bruton

Where have they been since May?

Mr. Lawlor

The Opposition should be telling illegal operators on the west coast to prepare to shut down or to apply for a licence. They should get their act together so that their applications can be considered quickly.

Mr. Carey

This is unbelievable.

Mr. Lawlor

If the present chaos continues, will Deputy Carey and his constituents accept a second rate system for the west? We want to give them the full range of services with an 11 channel choice. They should have access to satellite television. Why should they have to put up with bad reception from time to time? I am amazed that Fine Gael should expect the Government to accept illegal activity from 1 January. The House should reject the motion before us. I am sure that the Minister, in moving his amendment tomorrow night, will have the support of other parties in the House. Fine Gael should not try to generate dissension in constituencies in the west, all in the interest of illegal broadcasting.

Mr. P. O'Malley

I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after "Wireless and Telegraphy Act 1988" and substitute the following:

"(1) to permit him to grant a provisional sound broadcasting licence to any person or body presently providing an unlicensed radio service and who made a submission to the Independent Radio and Television Commission in accordance with requirements of the Radio and Television Act, 1988 prior to the 21st November last;

(2) to permit him to grant a provisional licence to unlicensed television UHF deflector systems presently transmitting TV signals from channels other than RTE.

Such provisional licences to be granted where it can be shown that no interference will be caused to signals from legal systems and where the operator complies with all other existing requirements of the Broadcasting Acts, such licences to remain in force until licences presently provided for in the Broadcasting and Wirless Telegraphy Act, 1988 and the Television and Radio Act, 1988, are issued by the Minister for Communications."

The purpose of my amendment is to bring about a situation whereby there can be an extension of the requirements on a legal basis. One of my criticisms of the Fine Gael motion is that it is not just a question of extending the date beyond 31 December because, as we know, all broadcasting services operated by stations other than RTE are illegal. The only thing that changes at the end of the year is that the penalties will be greatly increased and it is expected that that will drive the legal operators off the airwaves.

When the Minister introduced the Sound Broadcasting Bill late last year, which was subsequently reintroduced as the Radio and Television Bill, he pointed out the difficulties successive Governments had in getting illegal broadcasters off the air because there was no alternative legal system available to them. In introducing the Radio and Television Bill he said it was a means whereby we could have an orderly winding down of the illegal system and the coming on stream of new, legal services.

The whole purpose of tonight's debate is to underline the fact that after 31 December, if the Minister holds the line he has been following of late — indeed, he seems to have backed himself into a cul-de-sac on this issue — there will not be any alternatives because it is impossible, as previous speakers have pointed out, to bring on stream licensed, legal radio services within a short time. There will be a major gap in a market which is, undoubtedly, a very big market. The illegal stations would not have existed for the past ten years if there had not been a demand for the alternative choices they provide. It is totally undesirable — and unacceptable — that a long gap should be allowed to exist between the end of the year and the coming on stream of the new station. The Minister, prompted by the motion put down by Deputy Bruton, seemed to act fairly hastily in announcing that 25 new local radio stations would be advertised, as they were today, and that applications would be made as a result of that advertisement.

Debate adjourned.