asked the Minister for Finance the steps he has taken to implement the various proposals set out in the White Paper on reform of the public service; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Public Service.
8.
The most urgent problem facing the Government in the area of public service management has been and, for the time being continues to be, the need to bring under control and keep down the costs of administering the public service. As I indicated in my Budget Statement of 25 January last, considerable progress has been achieved. Resolute action to reduce staff numbers, measures to achieve greater efficiency and to end overlapping and duplication between agencies and the negotiation of a public service pay agreement which recognises the realities of the Government's position have all contributed greatly to the overall strategy for national recovery.
Much still remains to be done. As I indicated in my budget speech, policies to reduce staff numbers are still in place. Computerisation, management training and management reviews are all contributing to the drive for better managerial standards at both the personal and the organisational level. The efficiency audit group is charged with developing an efficiency strategy for the public service. As I indicated in my budget speech, and I quote:
I believe that a crucial element in any such strategy will be to find imaginative ways of getting organisations and individuals to manage better and of rewarding those who do. I am proposing fundamental changes in the financial procedures governing administrative and running costs. My aim is to try to find the right balance between, on the one hand, ensuring that expenditure does not begin to creep upwards and on the other, allowing greater delegation of responsibility to, and encouraging greater cost consciousness on the part of, Departments and managers. I am examining the possibility of fixing administrative budgets on a three-year cycle at a level which would involve a real reduction in funding each year because of greater efficiency but which would allow greater managerial flexibility within those budgets. I believe that this could lead to greater motivation and release some of the dynamic talent that is widespread throughout the Civil Service.
The proposals contained in the White Paper, Serving the Country Better, are being kept under review in my Department. To the extent to which these proposals may prove to be consistent with the Government's priorities in this area, they will be taken into account.
(Limerick East): I would like to ask the Minister, against the background of a continuing embargo in the public service, if the posts embargoed are counted as posts vacant within individual Departments or are they counted as posts suppressed?
The best answer I can give the Deputy is that in relation to the embargo there are vacancies that are left unfilled and in some cases there are vacancies that are suppressed.
(Limerick East): Could the Minister give an idea how many posts are vacant in the Civil Service, if there is a view that the Government will move to fill these posts in the future or if the Minister has a policy to restructure the public pay bill by restructuring the numbers and allocating complements to each Department of the Civil Service regardless of the embargo?
The Deputy is going from the general content of this question to the particular.
(Limerick East): It is a general matter.
It is not as general as the Deputy might like it to be. I do not have the information available to me on the numbers of vacancies in each Department. If the Deputy wants to put down that matter as a separate question I would be only too glad to answer it.
In relation to the continued operation of the embargo and the reduction of 3,000 jobs in the public service in 1989, has the Minister any information as to the areas in which those reductions will occur?
Not as yet.
Arising from the Minister's reply——
That is a separate question from the one which was put down.
It is not. If the Minister wants to answer the question he should have——
With all due respect, if the Deputy wants that type of information he should please put down the question and I will be glad to give it to him.
The Minister said——
It should not lead to argument. It is clear that if Deputies want particular information they should put down a specific question.
(Limerick East): We might as well put down written questions if we cannot ask supplementaries.
That is a very general question and the Deputy knows that as well as I do. If he wants to know the numbers he should ask for them and I will give him that information.
May I put my supplementary question?
(Limerick East): The Minister should be able to answer supplementary questions.
Order. There are two Deputies on their feet. One must resume his seat.
The Minister announced in the budget that there would be a reduction of 3,000 jobs and he has provided £25 million. Is the Minister seriously saying that he does not know yet where those jobs will be reduced?
What the Minister is seriously saying, if the Deputy was listening correctly, is that this is a separate question. If the Deputy wants specific information he should put down a question and I will be only too delighted to answer it.
The Minister does not have the information.
It is not included in this brief. The Deputy should put down a specific question if he wants a specific answer.
The question will be put down next week but the Minister——
There is no reference, good, bad or indifferent, to anything about numbers in 1989 or about how many jobs will be lost.
This is 1989.
The Deputy is referring back to my statement in the budget and not to the question that is down on the Order Paper. If the Deputy does not do his homework properly he should not blame me.
Arising from the Minister's reply and realising that it is as difficult to get information from him as it would be from Salvador Dali, I would like to know what the Minister means when he speaks about a right balance. One of the areas in the public service which was making money was the Land Registry. It made a profit of almost £1 million last year and this year it looks as if it will lose money.
Again, the Deputy is deviating into the particular realm of the Land Registry which is worthy of a separate question
I appreciate that, a Cheann Comhairle——
I hesitate to refuse the Deputy but I think I have dwelt long enough on this question.
I want to put to the Minister——
Sorry, Deputy Enright. Deputy McDowell.
With respect, a Cheann Comhairle, I am putting a question to the Minister and I believe I am perfectly entitled to do so.
I will decide that, Deputy.
The position I am making to the Minister is——
A question.
——that there are areas in the public service which are making money. This is one such area and I would ask the Minister——
The Deputy has already made that point very eloquently.
I say to the Minister that this area which is making money is close to breaking down at present due to staff shortages which leads to great problems for people who want to have their titles——
Sorry, Deputy, this is not the time to raise that matter.
I would like to know what remedy the Minister has for this problem.
Deputy Michael McDowell, a brief question.
It is a scandal——
Please, Deputy Enright.
It is a scandal and the Minister is aware of it.
Arising from the Minister's remarks about controlling costs in the public service and bearing in mind the figures he gave in his budget speech to this House last week, would he agree that he faces special pay increases of £150 million this year to be negotiated? He is planning to get rid of 12,000 public servants in 1988 and 1989. Special pay increases next year will cost——
Again, the Deputy is injecting new matter into the question.
The figure for special increases this year is £40 million, of which £12 million was already allocated to the Defence Forces. The balance represents the claims that have been adjudicated on so far. The £150 million does not accrue in 1989. As I indicated in my Budget Statement, I have invited the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, under the ambit of the Programme for National Recovery, to come in and discuss with us the whole question of special pay awards to ensure that the programme for economic recovery or the recovery that is taking place in the economy is in no way jeopardised or endangered by payment of special pay increases.
The Minister should admit he cannot pay it.