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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Feb 1989

Vol. 386 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - VHI Recovery Programme: Motion (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by Deputy Yates on 31 January 1989:
That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to ensure that the VHI Recovery Programme is altered so as to rescind the decision to abolish the Drugs Refund Scheme by availing of alternative policy options which would remove cross subsidisation of plans and allow a more actuarial approach to Health Insurance.
Debate resumed on amendment No. a1.:
To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:
"acknowledges that under the legislation establishing the VHI, responsibility for the management of its affairs is vested in the Board, subject only to the approval of the Minister for Health and accepts that the Minister had no alternative but to approve the Board's Recovery Programme which was prepared in accordance with the best actuarial advice available and designed to ensure the continued viability of the VHI."
—(Minister for Health.)

I wish to reiterate that the Progressive Democrats believe that the appropriate means of safe-guarding those with long-term illness is by extension of the existing long-term illness scheme to cover drugs needed by persons suffering from chronic asthma, heart conditions, cancer, kidney transplants and similar diseases not already covered. A lot of money can be saved by doing this on a wholesale cost plus prescription fee basis rather than on the present full retail price basis which is very expensive. The Progressive Democrats also believe that the VHI, which is actually insolvent, is a cornerstone of our health system, that they must be saved and returned to solvency. Many of their practices and procedures must be changed and their cover must be financially sustainable.

The VHI drugs refund scheme has been of value to many people with long-term illnesses such as those to which I have referred. But, in the last analysis, a drugs refund scheme is not the proper business of a health insurer. Providing help for persons with serious chronic illness, requiring drug treatment, is the business of the State on a non-insurance basis. Every objective expert would accept that contention. Insurance is a system designed to cover contingent liabilities of a significant nature that might or might not occur. It is not designed to cover certainties or liabilities that are inevitable and predictable.

The system of health insurance is valuable and ought not be used to provide for essentially uninsurable risks such as the normal annual consumption by families of drugs arising from short-term illnesses. Such outgoings are just as inappropriate in the case of health insurance as are the day-to-day expenses of servicing and repairing small defects in cars to an insurer offering comprehensive motor insurance.

We must ask ourselves two basic questions: first, do we want to rescue the Voluntary Health Insurance Board or do we want to let the company collapse for short-term political advantage? Second, are we honest enough to accept that a company like the VHI cannot afford to offer a service such as the drugs refund scheme?

On 16 January 1989 the Progressive Democrats spokesperson on health, Deputy Mary Harney, made it quite clear that in our opinion the drugs refund scheme, as currently operated could not be retained and that its restriction to certain long-term illnesses would be necessary. On 18 January 1989 Deputy Yates circulated his motion to the Members of this House. We received it the following day and Deputy Harney assures me that that was in fact the first day on which she saw that motion.

It was on the front page of The Irish Times of 12 January 1989.

On the following day Deputy Harney, in a detailed and considered response, pointed out that the drugs refund scheme could not be retained in its present form and that the appropriate steps for Government were to extend the scope of the long-term illness drugs scheme to conditions including chronic heart conditions, chronic asthma, cancer and other serious life-threatening, long-term conditions.

In view of the allegations that have been made today I should read the statement which Deputy Harney issued on Thurday, 19 January 1989, when she received the motion, because it is perfectly clear that she never promised, on behalf of this party, any support for his motion. In fact the statement makes very clear the difficulty that she and we had with it. Her statement read as follows:

I believe there is a practical and fair solution to the controversy engendered by the proposed abolition of the VHI drugs refund scheme.

The removal of this scheme primarily affects certain categories of people in need of on-going, expensive drugs treatment for conditions like heart disease, asthma and cancer.

But the scheme has also been used by people to claim refunds for less vital pharmaceutical purchases, like aspirin and cough mixtures, and this is too extravagant an option given the parlous condition in which the VHI insurance company now operates.

The practical and humanitarian solution to the present controversy therefore is for the Government to re-classify conditions like cancer, heart illness and various forms of asthma as long-term illness, and to include them in that category for 100 p.c. drugs coverage as operates for various other long-term illnesses.

The Progressive Democrats will support such a practical and reasonable resolution of the present problem resulting from the total abolition of the VHI drugs refund scheme, but we do not favour its complete restoration.

Therefore to say that we favoured a motion which calls for its complete restoration has to be patently untrue.

If the Progressive Democrats abstain from voting on the Government amendment they are killing their own amendment.

The lie is now coming out.

Yes, and it is regrettable that that untrue allegation was made. The amendment in the name of the Progressive Democrats, which Deputy Harney drafted yesterday, makes the self same point and is consistent on all points with what she said on 19 January. It is the only honest and consistent amendment to come from this side of the House.

The Progressive Democrats are killing their own amendment by abstaining on the Government one.

Deputy Yates sought to accuse us of inconsistency and weakness. The facts speak for themselves. The motion in Deputy Yates' name is inconsistent and self-contradictory. One simply cannot call for increased actuarial influence in the VHI and, in the same breath, call for the retention of the least actuarial feature of their present service. It may sound like good politics but it is wrong. If the new politics, so called, involve speaking out of both corners of one's mouth at the same time, I would warn its adherents that the habit may result in a certain forking of their tongues.

As the Deputy would well know.

We had hoped that the Fine Gael motion would be supportable and would not attempt to disguise the need to restrict help to those who have serious long term life-threatening conditions such as cancer, chronic asthma, heart conditions and the like.

Unfortunately, in Deputy Yates' motion, we have been asked to ignore the obvious truth and join in supporting what we have already pointed out to be wrong, the short term aim of inflicting political damage on the Government. Much though the Government are to blame for the present crisis in the VHI and deserve to be criticised, it would be wrong to pretend that the complete retention of the drugs refunds scheme is possible in the board's present condition. Indeed it would be still more wrong to signal to the board of the VHI that the steps necessary to ensure their survival are to be determined now by short term political manoeuvring in this House.

I call on all Members of this House, especially those in Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil who know that the amendment in the name of Deputy Harney and myself is the only honest, fair and practical way to deal with drugs required by those suffering from serious long term illnesses——

The Deputy is killing his own amendment.

——to give up their political pretences and do the right thing by admitting that the motion before us this evening is simply not on. The Government amendment seeks to ignore their responsibility in this matter which is considerable. However, I welcome the announcement by the Minister for Health last evening that he is now reviewing the operation of the community drugs scheme to ascertain how the available funding can best be deployed towards the areas of real need. That is what is needed. At least now let us hope that the VHI — who have been unable to avoid huge losses in the last two years — henceforth will be allowed freedom from interference to enable them prepare for competition for the first time. If they fail to survive on a commerical basis the Exchequer will have to subsidise the company at huge cost. I shudder at that prospect because it would be the first time that would have happened in the 32-year history of the board which, up to very recently, had served this country extremely well.

The most remarkable feature of this debate has been the attempt to suggest that the present Government are in some way responsible for the VHI's difficulties. If one looks at the causes of these difficulties, it is plain to see that they arose before we came to office. Indeed, some of the difficulties are due to decisions of the previous Government.

The impression has been given that VHI have gone from being a pillar of financial strength to their present position in the last two years. The basis of this claim is the fact that VHI's reserves were at their highest level at the end of the financial year in February 1987. However, Deputies must understand that the reserves figures do not necessarily give an accurate picture of the underlying strength or weakness of an insurance company at that point in time.

The refusal of the previous Government in 1986 to allow VHI a premium increase had very little impact on the board in the 1986-87 financial year. I would like to remind Deputies that that was the year prior to a general election and, for political reasons, the previous Government were not prepared to grasp the nettle and grant the increase which was sought by the board of the VHI. Premium increases only apply to individual members when their policies come up for renewal. If an increase had been given, it would have worked its way through the membership during 1987, and it would thus have had most of its impact on the 1987-88 financial year.

As we now know, of course, the Coalition Government decided that they would not allow any increase, on the basis that VHI's reserves could absorb any cost increases. Of course, that chicken soon came home to roost, and we were left to deal with the consequences of the inactivity of the Coalition Government.

During 1986 also, the new, high technology hospitals came on stream. The VHI's plans to provide cover for them were approved by the then Government — indeed, the Government were heavily involved in drawing them up. Deputy Barry Desmond would be able to confirm the pressures he may have been under from Cabinet colleagues. We now know that the plans were not adequate to meet the costs involved. Membership of these plans grew slowly during the 1986-87 financial year, and it was the following year before the problems began to emerge. Again, it was left to the incoming Government to deal with them.

It has also been claimed that VHI's expenditure on public hospital charges since we came to office is responsible for the present problem. Again, the facts do not bear this out. In 1987-88, 19 per cent of VHI's total claims expenditure went to public hospitals. This is a lower share than at any time in the past five years.

Public hospital charges for private and semi-private accommodation did indeed rise sharply when the previous Government were in office — they were 150 per cent higher when they left office than when they came in. In our two years in office, they have only risen by 3.5 per cent.

There are many factors to blame for VHI's problems. It would be fair to say that every area of their claims expenditure has risen rapidly in the past few years, including payments to private hospitals; payments to public hospitals; payments to consultants; and refunds to members for drugs and other expenses.

A proper analysis of the figures, as has been done by the experts which we sent into the VHI, shows that all of these factors were emerging in 1986, even though they had not begun to be fully reflected in the VHI's financial results for that year. The suggestion that this Government were inactive in dealing with these problems is particularly galling, for two reasons: first, it comes from the party who helped to cause the problems; and second, the record shows it to be untrue.

As soon as the Government took office, the Minister for Health investigated the financial position at VHI and had discussions with the VHI board on the best approach to remedy it. As a result, a premium increase of 8 per cent was authorised, which took effect towards the end of 1987.

The Minister kept in close touch with the VHI board, and continued to monitor their financial situation. It became clear that costs were still out of control and that the premium increase alone was not going to be sufficient to put things right. The Minister discussed the problem again with the Board and, with their agreement, appointed expert consultants to look in detail at every aspect of the operation. When the consultants reported on the immediate recovery measures which would be necessary, the Minister lost no time in approving them and they are now being implemented.

The Government have therefore been prompt and decisive in dealing with the VHI problems which they inherited on coming into office. However, they have also been careful to take the time necessary to get detailed and expert analysis of the board's position to make sure that the right decisions were taken. It is a pity that the previous Government did not do likewise before rushing into some of the decisions which they took in 1986; the VHI's position might now be a very different one.

Before moving away from VHI's financial position, it is important that I should refute one statement made by Deputy O'Malley. VHI is not, and has never been insolvent. There is absolutely no comparison between their position and that of the other insurance companies whose problems have been before this House in recent years. The reserves have fallen because costs were allowed to get out of line with premium income. Costs have now been capped, and premiums adjusted in an equitable manner. VHI's reserve will now rise again and will return to an acceptable level within two years.

I should mention that the EC minimum solvency margin to which Deputy O'Malley referred does not in fact apply to VHI, although the VHI board have adopted a policy of seeking to maintain reserves at or above that level.

I now turn to the specific decision to withdraw the VHI drugs refund. As Deputy O'Malley has acknowledged in his contribution, it would be quite wrong to restore that particular benefit. We all accept that those who need expensive drugs on a long-term basis must be helped, and the Minister has made it clear that he is looking at the existing schemes in order to target the available funding towards the areas of greatest need.

Medical card holders comprise 1.3 million of the population or 37 per cent; VHI members comprise 1.1 million or 31 per cent and about 30 per cent of the population are neither VHI members nor medical card holders. Very many of these would be in the income groups just above the medical card guidelines for whom VHI membership may not be a realistic option. These groups would gain nothing from a restoration of the VHI drugs benefit.

It has also been pointed out that it makes no sense to have claims for refunds for parts of the very same item of expenditure processed by two different agencies — the health boards, under their drug refund scheme, and the VHI. I am rather surprised that Deputy Yates would go along with the expensive and bureaucratic approach.

The most telling evidence against the VHI drugs benefit, however, comes from the experts who have considered it in detail. They found that costs under this benefit were running out of control. For many members, it had turned their VHI cover into a "maintenance contract" rather than insurance, since they were buying cover against a certainty, not a risk.

Although Deputy Yates seemed to take exception to the point being made by the Minister last night, it is nonetheless a fact that an individual could join VHI, knowing that he would be claiming more each year under this benefit than the cost of his premium. The reason for this is very simple.

Deputies will know that one cannot be covered by VHI for hospital treatment, in the first few years of membership, if the treatment is related to a condition which existed before joining. It is obviously necessary to have such an exclusion to deter people from putting off joining until they know that they will have to make a claim. However, it is impossible to operate any exclusion of this nature in the drugs refund scheme. The scheme refunds expenditure on the basis of pharmacists' receipts. It would be administratively impossible to operate it on the basis of identifying the reasons that any specific drugs were needed.

Consequently, anyone who had not been contributing to VHI, but who discovered that he would in future need expensive drugs on a regular basis, could join and immediately be guaranteed an annual refund of considerably more than his premium.

I want to stress again the point made by the Minister last night that the VHI drugs benefit was withdrawn because of its own inherent problems, and not because of any of the other cost factors affecting VHI. To illustrate this point, I would like to remind the House of the other measures which have been taken to deal with the various causes of VHI's problems.

Hospital costs, particularly in the private sector, had risen rapidly due to increased facilities, more intensive usage and higher costs. Cash limits have now been applied to each hospital to prevent any further rise in costs for the next 18 months. Consumers will not be affected by this measure as hospitals will have to provide the same volume and cash mix as last year.

There had also been substantial increases in consultant costs. In certain specialties, this was because the automation of diagnostic tests had led to a greatly increased volume, with a much lower time input per test on the part of the consultant. Payments to consultants had not been reduced to reflect this. The VHI are now in the process of reaching agreement with the specialties concerned on a revised fees structure.

As a result of these measures, it has been possible to put VHI back on a sound financial footing while requiring a premium increase of only 3 per cent from the majority of members. Where premiums were out of line with the level of cover provided, the appropriate increases have been applied — 10 per cent on Plan C, 16 per cent on Plan D and 25 per cent on Plan E.

Deputies should also understand that the measures which have been implemented were the immediate steps necessary to preserve the viability of VHI. The consultants have made a number of recommendations in relation to VHI's plans and methods of operation. All of these are included in the corporate plan which has been submitted to the Minister.

In the course of this debate, Deputies have put forward a number of suggestions, such as fixed prices for specific treatments, regardless of which hospital is involved; the possibility of some financial incentives to members to take a greater interest in preventive care and so on. I can assure Deputies that the consultants have looked at all of the possibilities, and their report to the Minister is an extensive one. It will be considered carefully over the next few months, and the points made by Deputies will be borne in mind.

In relation to the longer term role of the VHI, I would like to refer at this stage to the question of community rating. One of the most positive things which has emerged from this debate has been the general support in the House for the continuation of this principle. We could not tolerate a situation in which the old, or those with chronic illness, would be penalised by higher premiums, or perhaps could not obtain insurance cover at all.

In recent weeks, some interests have called for open competition in health insurance in Ireland, and I am aware that a group of hospital consultants have launched a campaign to achieve this. I do not understand the motivation behind this campaign. I do not believe that hospital consultants, in general, would be happy with a situation in which those in most need of health insurance might be unable to afford it.

The Minister has made it clear that the principle of community rating must remain, and I am heartened that he will have the support of the House in this. Although Deputy Yates was forthright in his support for community rating, he then went on to make a rather strange proposal. He suggested that VHI should try to increase their membership among lower age groups by offering them lower premiums and a no-claims bonus. He felt that this would bring in extra revenue which could be used to restore the VHI drugs benefit. The Deputy is either in favour of community rating or in favour of lower premiums for the young — he cannot have it both ways. His proposal, if implemented, would be the first step in dismantling community rating, and would make it very difficult to sustain the principle much longer.

In any case, there is an obvious flaw in the proposal. It would not be feasible to offer lower premiums to new members without offering them also to the younger members already enrolled in VHI. As a result, VHI would lose revenue from its existing members. There is no reason to believe that it would be possible for VHI to recruit sufficient additional members to make up this loss, particularly given the fact that over half of those without full eligibility for health services are already enrolled in VHI. Deputy Yates has an enthusiasm for coming up with instant solutions to complex problems. This enthusiasm is sometimes refreshing, but I hope the House will agree that, when the best international expertise has been engaged to look at these problems, it might perhaps be better to take some account of their advice also.

I would now like to turn to the statutory drugs schemes. It is clear that those with exceptional, ongoing drugs costs must be helped and spared any hardship. It has also been made abundantly clear that the VHI drugs refund was not the way to do this. The Minister has stated that he is looking at the existing arrangements, under the long-term illness scheme and the health boards' drugs refund scheme, which together cost £21 million a year, to ensure that they operate equitably and efficiently in dealing with those who most need help.

The approach suggested in the Progressive Democrats' amendment may not be the best way of doing this. Many people, suffering from conditions other than those which the amendment mentions, may have exceptional drug costs because of factors specific to their individual cases. The needs of certain other people may not be as great, although they would come under one of the headings in question. It is important to ensure that the arrangements are equitable towards all those with very high, ongoing costs, regardless of the specific conditions, which give rise to them.

I would also like to refer to Deputy Yates' statement that a number of health boards are charging £5 per month for processing claims under the drugs refund scheme. One board introduced such a charge and I understand that other boards may have been considering doing so. However, the Minister, Deputy O'Hanlon, has given firm instructions within the last few weeks to each health board that such charges are not to be made. I reiterate that instruction to ensure that this does not continue. This issue gives us an opportunity to consider in great detail the overall position in relation to the services of the drug refund scheme. The proposals coming forward from the Minister will certainly satisfy the majority of the public who are affected.

In conclusion, I would ask Deputies to accept the realities spelled out in our amendment to the Fine Gael motion. A potential crisis in the VHI has been averted by the actions of the Minister. The strategy which is now being followed is based on the best advice available and it would be both irresponsible and unjustifiable to interfere with it. I do not wish to go back on the position regarding the inactivity of the previous Government of which the Cathaoirleach was a backbench member. Basically the position arose as a result of the major private hospitals coming on stream, with the approval of Deputy Barry Desmond and the Taoiseach, Deputy FitzGerald.

You did not stop them.

Deputy Barry Desmond limited Blackrock Clinic to 58 beds.

I would ask the Deputies not to interrupt.

They were brought under the VHI at the request of the Coalition Government at the time and that has led to the present position. In 1986, the appropriate time to increase the costs of VHI, Deputy Barry Desmond, then Minister for Health, and the Coalition Government refused to grant the increase. That would have averted the present crisis in the VHI which this Government and Deputy O'Hanlon as Minister are now resolving. That Government, now in Opposition, are attempting to thwart the activities of this Government in resolving the position.

The Minister should have stuck to the script.

They are the facts and I would like to reiterate them here. When Deputy Boland was Minister for Health for a very short six weeks, some would say a very long six weeks, he could have taken decisive action in relation to this issue but he did not do so.

It was in the middle of a general election campaign.

Exactly, we were at the beginning of a very important general election campaign.

The time the Fianna Fáil Party were making promises about the health cuts.

It was not the time to increase charges for 1.1 million of the population. I would like to take this opportunity to commend the Minister for taking decisive action in first increasing the charges in 1987 when we came into office. If the charges had not been increased at that stage the crisis would be far more serious now for the VHI. The rescue package that has been put forward and agreed by Government is the package that will result in the VHI being maintained, and indeed it will guarantee their future. We all have a certain vested interest, as members of the VHI, in guaranteeing their future viability. I commend our amendment to the House. I would ask the former Coalition Government partners, who are no longer partners, to reflect on the position and to remove their total hypocrisy.

Can the Minister say that with a straight face?

I regret that Deputies Barry Desmond, John Boland and Garret FitzGerald are not here. Deputy FitzGerald who was Taoiseach at the time had a very active involvement——

Take a look at the accounts.

——in ensuring that certain hospitals came on stream at a particular time. Deputy Barry Desmond who was then Minister was responsible for bringing on stream and approving the enrolment of a certain institution under the VHI. Nevertheless, we are there to pick up the pieces and we are now putting this proposal to the House. I would like to remind Deputy Yates——

Do not forget the dental services.

We will not deal with that at this point. I presume we will have another opportunity of discussing that issue. I would like to remind Deputy Yates, and other Deputies, that the Coalition Government in 1987 proposed a £1 fee on prescriptions which would cost the average medical card holder about £5 per week. The medical card population of 1.3 million, the lowest income group in society, would be charged in the region of £250 per annum to have their prescriptions filled.

I am glad the Minister of State can remember that far back.

The last Coalition Government, the short lived Fine Gael Government, were prepared to take £20 million from the lowest income group in society, the medical card holders.

I dispute that.

We did not mention medical cards.

We scrapped that proposal on coming into office. I would like to know from Deputy Yates, who will get an opportunity to speak at the end of this debate, if it is still the policy of Fine Gael to charge £1 for prescriptions? I would like to have that clarified at this stage because it is a very important item.

It is not.

(Interruptions.)

The Coalition also abolished rural dispensing by general practitioners. We restored it. In rural areas it is vitally important that the GP would be in a position to dispense drugs. Our record in providing a service to the less well off in society is evident. Now, the Fine Gael Party have been totally misled and are misleading the public by putting forward this motion for their own party political reasons. All I can say is that the balloon which is upside down on their posters has certainly burst here tonight.

This House will support our amendment and will ensure the survival of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board. If Deputy Yates' proposal went through, it would seriously put at risk the future survival of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board. I have no doubt that the majority in this House will support our amendment and vote accordingly and that our mature approach to this issue will receive the backing of this House. If the Minister did not take this action, if he did not give the increase which was appropriate in 1987, and if he did not approve the increases which we all have to bear, in particular the major increases going through at present which are essential, the VHI would not survive. I want to make it clear that the majority of people will not be affected by the changes until August this year when the renewal of their premiums come through. They will still be eligible for the refund up to that point. The Minister will be announcing in detail other developments in relation to the refund scheme in the very near future.

The Taoiseach has said something different.

Unlike the Government, as evidenced by the speech of the Minister of State, the Labour Party take this debate seriously. We regard this as a matter of great importance. This debate gives us an opportunity yet again to address the multitude of problems which beset our health services since the Fianna Fáil Government came into office two years ago.

I listened last night and again this evening with growing anger to some of the comments made. The Progressive Democrats speaker, Deputy O'Malley, left us all wondering what exactly their position on this issue was, so much so that after he had concluded I asked him what he would do when it came to a vote. Indeed, the Fine Gael spokesman asked the same question because it was anything but clear from the "on this hand" and "on the other hand" contribution he made. He has clarified the matter tonight. It is quite clear that he has no intention of safeguarding the scheme so many hundreds of families are dependent upon.

Last night Fine Gael gave a reasoned analysis of the present position of the Voluntary Health Insurance scheme and they cited Government mishandling and mismanagement of the health services as a contributory factor to the crisis that exists there. The Fine Gael spokesperson did not mention that his party are guilty of complicity, with the Progressive Democrats, in the mishandling of the health services of this Administration, supporting as his party do the Estimates that have caused such havoc in the last two years. We cannot look simply at the narrow issue of one of the proposals of the rescue package put forward to the Minister for Health to rescue the VHI. We must take into account the overall general situation. The Minister of State raised my anger.

Is the Deputy the spokesperson for the Labour Party?

I am the spokes person for the Labour Party. Is the Minister of State a Minister for anything except chairing committees? The Minister of State, who chairs 21 committees at the latest count, came in to entertain us tonight with a comic history of Ireland. The health services of this country are marginally more important and deserve a little more attention than the Minister of State gave to them. To rewrite history and to cite the responsibility of a former Minister for Health, Deputy Desmond, is nothing short of laughable. He was the Minister who preserved the health services; he did not have people lying on trolleys in hospitals throughout the length and breadth of the country, he did not close 4,000 beds. He preserved the percentage of gross national product expended on the health services for the four years he was there, despite weekly attacks from the other side of the House——

And destroyed VHI.

The Minister for Health — then the Opposition spokesman on health — led an attack on health expenditure every week. He orchestrated every health board to demand more resources and fought a campaign in February 1987 festooning the country with posters that said: "Health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped." It was a sick joke.

Fianna Fáil talked about Fine Gael's proposals for a prescription charge. Within weeks of coming to office, they brought in a £10 charge for anybody who visited an outpatients department in a hospital, and charged £10 a night for anybody who was admitted to hospital. That was their response. It can hardly have come as a surprise that the two years the present Minister had held office has seen the reserves of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board drop from £29.5 million to £4 million nor can it come as a surprise that up to £20 million a year is now paid by the VHI to two institutions in Dublin. This is of little surprise when this Minister has closed 4,000 public beds and ensured that anyone who wishes to have elective surgery has a choice between private medicine or being on an endless public waiting list. Obviously, that choice is open only to the one-third of the population who can afford VHI membership. If you are not among that one-third you take your chances and the devil take the hindmost. If you live long enough you may be admitted to have the medical procedures that you require carried out in a public hospital.

Since the Minister, Deputy O'Hanlon, has taken office, private medicine has mushroomed. He has done more for private medicine in two years than even the most Thatcherite privatiser could have hoped for. You cannot build up a huge private medical capacity, starve the public health service of money and expect——

The Deputy voted to privatise St. John's Hospital in Limerick.

Simply because we did not allow the Minister to wrong foot us on that issue. Even when this House — the democratically elected assembly of the people — passed a resolution on Barringtons Hospital, you chose in your arrogance to ignore that. However, that will be remembered by the people when they get their chance.

They will remember you and the privatisation of St. John's.

You cannot build up a private medical empire and expect that there will be no cost at the end of it. Unfortunately, the bill has now fallen due and it is to be borne by the general VHI subscribers in the form of increased premia and reduced services, as evidenced in this proposal, one of the many to bring the financial affairs of the VHI into some semblance of order.

When we examine the VHI, it is not as Deputy O'Malley suggested last night, just another insurance company. The Deputy suggested that this is the third time in recent years that the matter of the collapse of an insurance company has been before the House. The VHI is not a general insurance company like the PMPA or the ICI. In fact, it has a very narrow remit to cover maintenance in hospital, consultant fees and hospital charges. It does not, for example, cover GP's fees and has no interaction with the general practitioners. It does not cover most dental procedures or preventive medicine. Also, I would not agree with Deputy O'Malley's firm assertion that the VHI is insolvent. That is not a fair description of the difficulties it now faces.

But that is a fact, the VHI is insolvent.

Ten minutes ago the Minister said that Deputy O'Malley was totally wrong and that the VHI is not insolvent.

An alarmist statement.

You may have a little discussion among yourselves because obviously you are all spokespersons on that side of the House.

The Deputy is sensitive.

The reality is that the VHI has a significant investment portfolio but it also has a very significant and unsustainable operating loss, which we have a responsibility to address, and nobody is denying that fact. As I have said, the VHI has an investment portfolio of some £73 million which produces an annual income of approximately £7 million plus. It also has significant property assets. The situation is, therefore, serious but not terminal and we should not allow the notion to go abroad that the VHI is finished. What therefore must we do?

Last night the Minister informed the House that the operation of the VHI is under review. This Minister is very fond of reviews, committees, commissions and investigations of which, as I have said previously, there are 21 working at present. The poor Minister of State must be worn out chairing them all. The Minister said:

I have for some time been reviewing the operation and rationale of all the community drugs schemes, including the drugs refind scheme and the long term illness scheme.

He continued:

These are the main issues which I am considering to see how the available funding can best be deployed and targeted towards the areas of real need. I will be announcing my proposals in due course.

Some 15 months ago the Labour Party discovered that the Minister had decided to drastically reduce the moneys available to the community drugs schemes. We discovered that because the Minister had written to each of the health boards telling them that. I raised this matter some 15 months ago and the Minister said, as I am tired hearing, that I was alarmist, that there were no such proposals. Thankfully the Labour Party were able to organise resistence on the part of the caring agencies and to use their political strength to ensure that when the budget was presented this time last year, that money had been restored. However, it is interesting that in the Dáil debates at that time, the Minister indicated that he was reviewing the community drugs schemes. What has happened during the past 15 months?

It is a very slow review.

Fifteen months later the Minister is still reviewing the matter.

It is a very thorough review.

The Minister has said there is to be a full review but he has not quantified when the review body will report. What has the Minister been doing in the meantime? That sop, the promise of another review or perhaps it is the same review that is ongoing is apparently enough to satisfy the Progressive Democrats, but it does not satisfy me. The Minister has a responsibility to put proposals to this House and not constantly come in here whenever there is a crisis or difficulty and promise yet another review, yet another committee, yet another working group.

Clearly, the VHI need a major shake up. I find it incredible that it is only now that the board are getting around to establishing a medical audit unit. Medical procedures must have an agreed cost; there must be a mechanism whereby there is an agreed cost for a hip replacement operation, a heart operation or whatever surgical procedure is required. Surely that can be agreed within the medical profession. We cannot have a situation where the same procedure can cost three times as much depending on the geographical location, where the operation is performed. That is unacceptable. Surely the VHI had a responsibility to sort out that problem at the very beginning. It is incredible that this issue is only being addressed now.

It is also surprising that there are 386 people employed in administering the VHI, when there are only 334 people employed to administer the Department of Health and to oversee the entire health budget.

Even that is too many.

There are questions that need to be answered.

We have a good Minister.

That level of administration has to be justified. It is unacceptable to me that the VHI have allowed a situation to develop where ordinary subscribers, one-third of the population, who pay VHI contributions, are expected to subsidise the extensive wine lists provided in some of our luxury hospitals.

A practice has been brought to my attention which also causes me some concern. Today I have asked the Secretary of the Department of Health to investigate this matter and I now ask the Minister for Health to comment on it. I refer to the fact that the VHI offers to some staff members loans and mortgages at highly subsidised interest rates, at a rate currently of 4 per cent. I am aware that many financial institutions offer perks to their employees. Indeed the ESB offer subsidised electricity to their employees, Bord na Móna provide subsidised turf for theirs but surely there should be some connection with the type of work done. For an institution like the VHI who operate, as I have described, in the very narrow confines of medical insurance, to offer subsidised mortgages surely raises some questions. I can see little justification for a mortgage provision for employees of a health insurance company. I ask the Minister to address that matter and to give his views on it. All these issues will no doubt be addressed by the Minister in the immediate future. However, the issue put to the House tonight in the Fine Gael motion is simply whether we want the VHI drugs refund scheme, a vital part of the budgets of hundreds of families on long term illnesses, to be maintained or abolished.

The Labour Party have put down an amendment which seeks to broaden the terms of the motion, to address the real problems facing the VHI and the whole of the health services, that is, the starving of the health services of resources and of cash. Fianna Fáil, supported by Fine Gael and the Progressive Democrats, steadily have reduced the percentage of gross national product expended on health from 7 per cent, which Deputy Desmond maintained throughout the four years in which he held office as Minister for Health, to 6.2 per cent of GNP for this year. That is the kernel of the crisis which besets the VHI and the entire health services. The crisis is fundamentally a problem of resources. That simple and inescapable fact cannot be fudged by tinkering with the health system. I address myself in particular to the parties in Opposition. If they are genuine in trying to get a health system that is open and available to all, the area of overall funding is the fundamental core. To pretend to care by picking at the peripheral issues without addressing that core issue is to try to delude the public.

Last October I gave a comprehensive run-down of the results of this Government's cuts. I cited the hospitals that were closed, the beds that were closed, the staff who were disemployed and all the agencies that were reduced in function. The only item I have to add to that list is that the crisis continues. Further squeezes are being now put on health boards in every part of the country. The crisis surfaces in various ways as health boards try to grapple with the problem of lack of money. You have today's issue in the south-east, for example, the centralisation of the food preparation in each county, which is creating great difficulties in many areas and will cause significant job losses. Day by day the implications of these cuts are becoming all too visible to anybody who has any care at all about health and the delivery of health services.

The Labour Party position remains completely unaltered and 7 per cent must be the target if we are to have an adequate health system. Within that target there can be some prospect of providing a service for all the people who are in need. For the Labour Party the only acceptable criterion is that care must be provided for those who need it and not only for those who can afford it. I appeal, even at this late stage, in particular to the Progressive Democrats who seem to have the opportunity to save this amendment or vote it down, to join the other Opposition parties in voting down the Government amendment. I appeal to all in Opposition in this House to join with the Labour Party, to stand back and decide that as a civilised country we must finance, resource and allow a health system to develop for all the people of this nation. The only amendment on the Order Paper tonight which seeks to do that, to address the core issue, is in the name of Labour Party Deputies. I sincerely believe that the time for shadow boxing and rhetoric is over. We must now begin to think of all those people, elderly and young, who seek to have their illnesses addressed by a caring and compassionate Government and a caring and compassionate health service. We owe it to all of these to provide the resources to do that. It is not too late to step back from the path of Thatcherite savagery.

On each and every occasion on which I sit in this House and listen to Deputy Howlin I am amazed, indeed amused, at the extraordinary heights of hypocrisy to which that gentleman can climb. Labour, he says, take this seriously. Indeed, they take it so seriously that the author of the VHI's present difficulties, Deputy Barry Desmond, is absent from this House.

I am the party spokesperson on health.

And on everything else as well.

Deputy Desmond is spokesperson on television.

The VHI are an insurance company and the fact of the matter, irrespective of how Deputy Howlin tries to portray it is that the fees charged to clients must cover the full cost of the services provided. When Deputy Desmond was Minister for Health, the two hi-tech hospitals which lie very close to the present difficulty of the VHI were built.

The Minister, Deputy O'Hanlon, furnished 50 beds within a week of coming into office.

They came on stream during that period——

Excuse me. Deputy Howlin, I hope I shall not have to remind you again that when you spoke nobody interrupted you. The least you might do is to be patient and listen and pay respect to other people who are addressing the House.

I am being provoked.

You will have to take your provocation outside the House if you want to give expression to it in the fashion in which you have been doing. I call Deputy Roche.

My townsman and I will, no doubt, peel off our coats outside the House afterwards. I understand that the truth can be provocative for Deputy Howlin. I understand that the truth can sometimes pain Deputy Howlin. He was not a party to the administrative errors which led to the present demise of the VHI and he cares, if we believe what he says. I can understand that the debacle left by the predecessor of the present Minister in office pains him.

The fact is that the two hi-tech hospitals, which all of us here who have tried to analyse the difficulties of the VHI agree were instrumental in causing them, came on stream while Deputy Desmond was in office. Schemes D and E came on stream, too, while Deputy Desmond was in office. Those are the facts and they are irrefutable. Deputy Desmond was in office when cost escalation started to become a problem for the VHI and it is a historical fact that, while the Coalition were in office in 1986, the board of the VHI approached the Department of Health requesting an increase of the order of 8 per cent in premia. This were refused by the Minister. In a characteristic act of Coalition cowardice, they ran away from the problem. That is the basis of the present difficulties.

I mentioned that I am amazed at the heights of hypocrisy to which Deputy Howlin clambers on each and every occasion on which he rises majestically to his feet in this House. He spoke of the VHI's bureaucracy as being too great. If that is the case now, that was also the case in 1986. His party and the party who were in an odd sort of partnership with his party at that time in Government did nothing about it.

(Interruptions.)

Those are the facts. Deputy Howlin spoke also about the perks available to the employees of State-sponsored bodies. He suggested that they be cut. Perhaps that is so. Many of us have views on those perks. All the perks that we mentioned were in place in 1986 when Labour were in office and they did nothing about them.

The only solutions Deputy Howlin put forward to this House tonight to the problem which faces VHI were characteristically fatuous. He wants to sack more of the VHI staff and renege on agreements negotiated in free collective bargaining between the board and management of the VHI and the trade union movement. I hope his brothers in the trade union movement will pay close attention to and note carefully what he said and his response in this.

The Deputy is in favour of it, is he?

I did not propose those solutions. Those are Deputy Howlin's propositions, not mine.

When this Government took office, they were presented with an extremely serious financial position in the VHI and that is an irrefutable fact. We may wish to avoid that fact. Our friends on the opposite benches occasionally are very good at avoiding facts, but that is a fact. It was made clear by the Minister tonight that the VHI's accounts for the year which ended just before the change of Government gave no real indication of the underlying problems in the organisation. It was made clear, too, that had the increases which were sought in 1986 been allowed, they would have carried through the accounts in 1986, 1987 and 1988 and the VHI would not face the crisis they are facing at the moment.

The Minister for Health must be complimented on his approach to the problem he inherited. He acted not only quickly but decisively. He has also taken great care to ensure that the problems of the VHI are properly investigated in depth. He was castigated for this by Deputy Howlin.

Fifteen months.

What would Deputy Howlin have, a shallow investigation of these problems? It took years for the VHI to get into these difficulties and they cannot be overcome by the fatuous solutions suggested by Deputy Howlin.

These are the chief points when considering the Fine Gael motion and the Minister's amendment to it. The measures in the VHI recovery plan are unpalatable but they are based on expert actuarial assessment of every aspect of VHI schemes. For each problem that has been identified an appropriate solution has been recommended and is in process of being implemented. These are the facts and we cannot avoid them. We cannot live in a world of fantasy and walk away from reality. The drugs refund scheme presented particular problems for the VHI. We did not have to wait until today to learn that this was the case. The problem has been well illustrated for the House and was acknowledged last night by Deputy O'Malley, who also suggested that there was no alternative to withdrawing this benefit.

Nobody will deny that for many people the cost of drugs and medicines which may be needed on a continual basis is a very significant burden; in some cases it is an unbearable burden. We are all aware of such cases. The Minister has acknowledged that the available schemes, even including the VHI scheme, have many deficiencies. He is not the only person to have looked at this matter and acknowledged that these deficiencies overlap and that there is a degree of unnecessary bureaucracy. The emphasis now will be on ensuring that the available resources are distributed more equitably and more efficiently amongst those in greatest need. Surely that is a course of action which should recommend itself to any caring or thinking person. There will also be general agreement with the Minister's view that some way must be found to avoid people having to pay for their drugs in full, especially in cases where this can amount to many hundreds of pounds per month, as in the case of those needing treatment for kidney problems. It is wrong that such people should have to wait many months to have the outlay refunded.

The programme of cost containment which the VHI have now begun is the first stage in a longer-term strategy. We do not know what the future will bring in terms of competition in health insurance but it is important that the VHI should be in a strong position to meet any challenge which may emerge. Unless we are to oversee the final destruction and demise of the VHI, which for all its warts has served the nation well, we have no option but to take the route proposed by the Minister and contained in the recovery programme. Until recently there was little perception by the VHI or by those providing services to it of the need for cost consciousness. The Minister has spoken at length on this matter. The same was true in general of the public health service, and the Minister's record in ensuring cost consciousness is to be commended, not condemned. The challenge for public and private health services alike is to ensure maximum efficiency so that the limited resources available can be used to the greatest benefit of the consumer. The Minister has detailed recommendations from the consultants for the future strategy of the VHI. He will have related advice to take into account from the commission on health funding. At least the available options have been carefully assessed. We were not in that position heretofore. Under the previous Government, decisions with major implications for the VHI were avoided and ducked. That is not the present position.

I am glad Deputy Howlin has returned to the House. I have put some of the facts on the record. The Deputy was characteristically flamboyant in his condemnation of the Minister for Health. He forgot that the same Minister has opened the new hospital at Beaumont and has ensured that we have new facilities in Mullingar, Cavan and Castlebar. The Minister has also been pushing for additional building for hospitals in Wexford, at Ardkeen and in Sligo. Deputy Howlin failed to mention that the Minister has provided for new equipment and facilities at St. James's Hospital. He omitted to take into his consciousness the fact that the health services, like any other public service, have ultimately to be paid for. Every time Deputy Howlin speaks on this issue he avoids that fact. Fatuous solutions such as the ones he suggested tonight — chop a few jobs in the VHI, cut the odd perk here and there — would have at best a marginal impact. Fatuous suggestions do not solve difficult problems. Pray God Deputy Howlin will never hold the health portfolio. If that day ever arrives there will be no health service the next.

I have listened very carefully to all the contributors to this important debate. It is evident that there is consensus on many matters relating to the VHI. The primary purpose of this motion was to secure some relief for some of the 68,000 people who submit out-patient claims to the VHI. I wish to express my gratitude to Opposition Deputies and parties who have indicated that they would be prepared to support our motion, having dealt with their own preferred amendments, even though they would not agree with all aspects of Fine Gael health policy. They see this motion as an opportunity to give some relief to those patients unfortunate enough to be afflicted with a long-term illness. I should like to place on record my gratitude to the Independent Deputies, The Workers' Party and the Labour Party.

The plight of these patients has now been left to the tender mercies of this Minister for Health. In recent days the Minister has shown concern about all the problems we and others have raised, yet again his response is another review. This time he is reviewing the drugs scheme. In the few months that I have been Fine Gael spokesman on Health we have seen several issues arise. There has been a review of health funding and a review of a multiplicity of areas of administration, involving everything from drugs formulations to computerisation. We have seen major issues referred for review. We have no effective dental service for adults who are medical card holders — 1.9 million people. The Minister of State has produced an excellent report on the dental service, stating that health boards are failing in their statutory duty to provide a service. The report has not been acted upon. There was an anticipation among many people in the health services that something would be provided in the budget but there was nothing. We have had a review but no action. There is a demographic pattern which suggests that between now and the turn of the century there will be a 7 per cent increase in the population aged over 70. We need to plan now for that eventuality. We set up a review and we had a very comprehensive report on care for the elderly. The review was chaired by Joe Robins and the fine report contained carefully costed recommendations for district nursing panels and so on. There was no response.

I have become a bit cynical about these reviews. A review represents a kick to touch rather than a prelude to action. I was rather puzzled as to why this was and I was beginning to think that maybe the Minister for Health did not attend Cabinet meetings any more. Maybe the health portfolio was not being put across especially when we saw that other Departments could get more money. Special measures were introduced to deal with anomalies in the budget for social welfare and yesterday we were told that £15 million had been allocated to renovate local authority houses. There will be more money in the capital programme for the Department of the Environment. The Government backed off from a major confrontation with the teachers' union in relation to a circular but every time health is mentioned a hard line is adopted and there is no surrender.

The reality of the health services under the Government was clearly laid down by the Taoiseach last Sunday. He was asked if the Minister for Health would provide a safety net for people seriously affected by the drugs refund decision and according to The Irish Times he said: “No, the Minister will not do that. The Estimates are separate and there is no question of adding services.” That at least has the merit of being straight and lays on the line the lack of priority the Government give to health. Even if more resources are available health will not feature as part of a rising tide.

The Government tragically have shown a heartless and callous disregard for the poorer sections of our community who are weakened by disability and terminal and long term illnesses dealt with in this motion.

I should now like to turn to the Government's amendment. On first reading one would say that Amendment a1 is not unreasonable, that the VHI are a semi-State body and should have their own independence. However, the VHI were formed in 1957 and have not been independent since then. On page 1 of The Irish Times last Monday, the Taoiseach is reported as saying that the VHI are independent but on page 10 of the same paper the Secretary of the Department of Health, Mr. Liam Flanagan, at a conference organised by the Irish Hospitals Consultants' Association is reported as saying that derogation would be sought because the VHI were an essential arm of public service policy. I rang the VHI to find out the role of successive Governments in their relationship with the VHI. I have a very strong suspicion that the Taoiseach, when he was Minister for Health, and every Minister for Health since have taken a very active interest and role in the VHI. I have a deep suspicion — I will put it no stronger — that a number of different proposals were put forward by the VHI, the Government and the Department of Health and that these were carefully studied. The 1967 Act clearly sets out the role of the Minister, the Government and the VHI. Section 4 (1) clearly states that the board will produce policies at the behest of the Minister as the Minister may from to time specify. Any other plans they wish to bring forward can only go ahead with the specific consent of the Minister for Health. The VHI are an essential part of public health policy and that cannot be ignored when the going gets tough. If a new benefits scheme was being announced there would be a rush of Ministers to tell us what a good thing it was and how it reflected Government policies. When it is bad news it is a different story. With respect, the Minister's amendment does not stand up to scrutiny. He tried to mislead the public by maintaining he had no alternative but to accept the VHI's recovery programme as submitted under the legislation——

I am sure Deputy Yates would not wish to accuse the Minister of misleading anyone.

The word does not cause any difficulty for me because there is a pretence that the Government are powerless in this situation. Under the Act successive Ministers for Health have seen it as their role to treat the VHI as an integral part of public health services.

I should now like to turn to the role of the Progressive Democrats in this debate. They have disgraced themselves over the last two days. They have shamefully turned their backs on the sick and compounded their confusion of yesterday, their cowardice of last night, by not telling the truth today. I should like to deal with that at some length and quite specifically. I was astonished by their amendment which I received at lunchtime yesterday. It reflects a lack of study of the problem. I have been very concerned for some time about the plight of asthma sufferers and I specifically studied the cost of extending asthma to the long term illness scheme. I have had two meetings with the asthma society to see if I could pressurise the Minister for Health into doing something. The cost of doing so would be £10 million per annum——

That is the cost for all asthma sufferers.

The asthma society accept——

Please, Deputy Yates, address the Chair instead of addressing yourself provocatively to other Members of the House.

And so inaccurately.

I will not be disorderly.

Stick to the facts.

The cost of the motion would be £10 million.

(Interruptions.)

We must also add the cost of heart disease and cancer and other unspecified long term illnesses. The minimum cost would be £30 million. The total cost in 1987 of the State drugs refund scheme was a little over £10 million. That is not the scheme one would logically pick because it is so expensive that the Minister for Health and anyone with experience will tell you that most CEOs of health boards in dealing with people with a long term illness card prefer to give them a medical card instead because it is cheaper to give them free GP and free GMS drugs cover. Why? Because of the crazy system in relation to drugs. If a person gets drugs on a medical card the chemist will get £1.24 whether the drug costs £100 or £1. Under the long term illness scheme, there is a 50 per cent mark up to the pharmacist.

I suggested they should be paid on that basis.

I can only look at the motion, study and cost it——

Stick to the facts.

It would cost £30 million and is very bad value for money. The most tragic part of the amendment is that many illnesses are not referred to at all. What about people depending on Benzodiasapine for a variety of psychiatric illnesses?

It says "other illnesses".

I know it is open-ended but that makes it less credible in relation to finances. The more you go down that avenue the more farcical the amendment is and that is why the Progressive Democrats will abstain and allow the Government amendment through because they know that theirs will not be reached.

(Interruptions.)

If someone suffers from cancer, heart disease or chronic asthma you are all right according to the Progressive Democrats but if you happen to have chronic renal failure and require kidney dialysis, a minority disease, a colostomy or Chron's disease, it is just tough luck because they are not big profile illnesses. The reality of putting every long term illness into the scheme is completely unviable. This amendment was concocted at lunchtime yesterday in confusion and panic — and all of that from a party who lectured us on public expenditure. Last night Deputy O'Malley was even-handed in his approach. Today the truth was dispensed with very economically. I clearly heard Deputy Mary Harney say in response to Myles Dungan in an interview on the "Today at Five" programme when he asked would she support the Fine Gael motion, most probably, yes. To paraphrase her, she said she would support moves to prevent hardship being inflicted on those people. She made it quite clear——

She said we would make up our minds when we saw the wording of the motion.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I do not want to be too direct but Deputy O'Malley made allegations about me today which I would like to refute. I have in front of me a press release from the Fine Gael Party dated 11 January which states that the Fine Gael front bench decided on that date to table the following motion for the first Private Members' time when the Dáil resumed:

That Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to ensure that the VHI Recovery Programme is altered so as to rescind the decision to abolish the Drugs Refund Scheme by availing of alternative policy options which would remove cross subsidisation of plans and allow a more acturial approach to Health Insurance.

The wording of that motion appeared verbatim on the front page of The Irish Times the following morning.

Why did the Deputy not circulate it?

The Deputy did not put it down until 18 January.

To say that they did not know what the wording of the motion was is simply unbelievable.

The Deputy did not put it down until 18 January.

Why did Deputy Harney not say to me on the telephone yesterday that they were not going to support it?

Why did the Whip of that party not say to the Whip of my party last week that they were not going to support our motion? When it became clear that we had majority support for the motion in this House the Deputy funked the issue and would not go through with it. The Deputy knew that his bluff was being called and backed off.

Why did the Deputy keep ringing her up?

Even when there was no threat of an election you still backed off. There is no way that you can put a veneer on that fact.

A Deputy

It also took the threat of an election to make the Deputy back off.

What is more——

The Deputy could be a little bit more delicate in his presentation and he should not address members of the Progressive Democrats as if they were the Ceann Comhairle or the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

That is not the business of the Chair.

The Deputy can rest assured that I will deal with any interruptions.

Your interruption is quite improper.

Deputy Mitchell, the Chair will take no direction from you.

I am entitled to comment on the Chair's rulings.

The Deputy has done that before. Deputy Yates should address the Chair and not the Progressive Democrats.

Whatever credibility they had left vanished when they made it clear they were going to abstain on the vote on the Government amendment. Knowing the arithmetic, they knew that the amendment would form part of the substantive motion and that every other amendment, including their own, which the Deputy feels so strongly about, which would cost £40 million to implement and which is totally illogical——

Five minutes ago the figure was £35 million.

Out of cowardice the Deputy is prepared to funk his own amendment. He should not blame me——

I do not think inflation is that bad here.

——when I put the mirror to his face and show him what the reality is. My real disappointment lies with the Government. The purpose behind putting down this motion was not to score political points but rather to get some justice for those who had been in receipt of funds from the scheme since 1967 and who are not responsible for the present financial problems of the VHI. If one looks at the accounts of the VHI for 1985 and for the year 1987-88, when all the trouble started, one will see that the operation of the drugs refund scheme did not contribute to the present financial problems.

Let us take a look at the position of the Fianna Fáil Party. Under the heading "Caring for Basic Values" on pages 51 and 52 of the party's Programme for National Recovery they made a commitment, leaving aside the fact that the Taoiseach instructed that posters stating that health cuts hurt the old, the sick and the handicapped should be put up in every part of this country, to take immediate steps to streamline the administration of the health services, to reduce costs and provide more effective care. They also said they would search out ways to improve the system for individuals and that an example was the problem of sufferers from long term illnesses using the drugs refund scheme who were expected to make large outlays on drugs each month. They stated that most of this money was eventually refunded by the State, but having to provide money for several months was often difficult for limited eligiblity patients.

They should hang their heads in shame.

Despite all the reviews that commitment still stands. What are the Government doing now? They are taking £7.6 million away from those very same individuals they pretended to care so much about prior to the last election.

The fairytales of Ireland.

They did not read their manifesto in 1977 and they did not read it in 1987.

They latched onto the Fine Gael one instead.

An attempt has been made in the course of this debate to blame Deputy Desmond for the problems in the VHI.

Poor Barry.

Poor Jack Daniels. Where is Jack Daniels?

And Deputy FitzGerald?

Deputy Desmond always made it clear that when those luxury hospitals came on stream, the Mater and Blackrock private clinics, as a point of principle they would have to be self-financing. To try to ensure this he introduced plans D and E. He effectively controlled the level of expenditure of the Blackrock Private Clinic by limiting them to full cover on only 50 beds out of a total of 100 beds. What happened within two weeks of the Minister for Health coming into office? He opened the sluice gates and allowed full cover on the additional 50 beds. In effect, cost control immediately went out the window. Then we come to the Mater Private Clinic and here I will not refer to the friendly relations between members of the Government and members of the Mater. It is a fine hospital with many dedicated staff. When it was known that there was not enough money to cater for those seeking treatment under plans B and C, the Government sanctioned a substantial premium increase. At the behest of this Government the VHI may even argue for them.

We need no lectures on the degree to which Deputy Desmond was responsible from the Government especially when we see the favourable treatment they gave to those luxury hi-tech private hospitals.

The Government are quite happy to stand over the present position in which people who are chronically ill have to pay up to £7 per week for drugs. Last night Deputy O'Malley claimed that this did not amount to much of a hardship because when we deduct £170 from the cost of the drugs most people have to pay only about £4 per week. With respect, such is his ignorance that he is not aware that figure of £170 includes total out-patient expenditure which means that each time a person pays £10 or more to a doctor that £10 can be taken into account as part of the excess policy. The recovery programme is to come into effect today. The Government have had almost two years to do something about this problem. It is bad enough having problems but leaving them unrectified leads to accumulated losses. It is inexplicable that the Minister took so long to deal with this problem and there is a direct relationship between that delay and the severity of the package. As a result 40,000 families who are a soft target are now to be deprived of that refund.

We have an opportunity in this House tonight, limited though it is — as Deputy Howlin said, it deals with only one small area of the health services — to demand that something useful should be done. I have been very flexible throughout this debate. I pointed out that there are three State drugs refund schemes and if the Minister came forward with a subsidy scheme which reduced the threshold from £28 to £10 we would wholeheartedly support him. We did not say it should be confined to the VHI. What we are trying to do is to relieve the hardship on those families. The Minister indicated that he might meet us but the cold hand of the Taoiseach came back at the week-end and there was no prospect of any assistance. In the same way for a waiting list of 50,000 — we are talking of the poorest people — the dental service was abolished effectively.

The choice facing us tonight is a simple one for the Progressive Democrats. It is whether the Opposition, a majority in this Dáil, are going to combine to ensure some relief and some hope for those families to put pressure on the Government to do something for them. Are they to languish between amendments? Are they to be lost in the finer print? Are we to see a reneging on earlier commitments? We would not have put down this motion unless we had a full expectation that the statements of all Opposition parties meant something when the recovery programme was first announced.

Every political party said they were opposed to the abolition of the drugs refund scheme. I appeal to all Opposition Deputies to unite, in the first instance oppose the Government's amendment and then support the Fine Gael motion.

Amendment put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 59.

  • Abbott, Henry.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matthew.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John. Fahey, Frank.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm Michael.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary T.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • Mooney, Mary.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William Gerard.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Swift, Brian.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.

Níl

  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Birmingham, George.
  • Boland, John.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Wright; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan.
Amendment declared carried.
Question put: "That the motion, as amended, be agreed to".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 59.

  • Abbott, Henry.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Matthew.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John.
  • Burke, Ray.
  • Byrne, Hugh.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Conaghan, Hugh.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary T.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doherty, Seán.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Foley, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Denis.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hilliard, Colm Michael.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • McCarthy, Seán.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • Mooney, Mary.
  • Moynihan, Donal.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, William Gerard.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Batt.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Swift, Brian.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Walsh, Seán.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wright, G.V.

Níl

  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Begley, Michael.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Birmingham, George.
  • Boland, John.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cooney, Patrick M.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Griffin, Brendan.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Hegarty, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kelly, John.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Creed, Donal.
  • Crotty, Kieran.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Desmond, Barry.
  • Doyle, Avril.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Naughten, Liam.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sheehan, P.J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Wright; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan.
Question declared carried.

As there is no further issue to be put to the House the other amendments fall.

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