I wish to raise a few points on section 2.
Garda Síochána Bill, 1989: Committee and Final Stages.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Amendment No. 1 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 2 stand part of the Bill."
On a point of order, may I ask if Deputy Barrett is moving his amendment?
Acting Chairman
The amendment has been ruled out of order.
There is always a danger that emotion will rule the head. This Bill does not deal solely with Namibia, but empowers the Government without coming back to the House to dispatch members of the Garda Síochána on UN duty at a future date. Of course, we all support the need for Ireland to play its part in seeing there is a peaceful transition to independence in Namibia but the legislation does not just deal with Namibia but gives the Government general powers to dispatch members of the Garda Síochána anywhere on UN duty. It is important that we put this point on the record.
With regard to section 2 (1) will the Government have any power to determine the requirements we may wish to see as to the manner members of the Garda Síochána will be treated when they go abroad? For argument's sake, do we have any say in determining where our members work, that they have a certain number of hours duty, rest days, overtime? Will such arrangements be part and parcel of the negotiations built into our requirements for the Garda Síochána who go abroad? What arrangements are being made for annual leave or for return visits during their tour of duty? What type of accommodation will be afforded to members of the Garda Síochána serving on duty abroad? What ratio of male to female staff will be dispatched? Will we always insist that a certain number who hold offices of rank in the Garda Síochána be part of a contingent? Let us not, to use the Minister's phrase, be taken down a cul-de-sac on these issues.
The Minister has dealt with the legislation as if it only applied to Namibia. However, section 2 (1) makes it quite clear that the legislation empowers the Government without ever having to come back to the Dáil again to dispatch members to serve on UN duty abroad. It happens to be in Namibia in this instance but it could be some other place next year and we will never again get an opportunity of debating the issue. The Minister has told us that 35 members have been requested in this particular instance but there is nothing to stop the Government in six months time agreeing to the dispatch of 125 or indeed 200 gardaí because there is no such restriction in the Bill. This is no restriction also on the conditions under which the members will be working.
I am not going to allow this opportunity to pass — regardless of Deputy McCartan's comments which I know were not meant to be unfriendly — without introducing bargaining counters, because that is what we are elected for. The legislation empowers the Government to dispatch members of the Garda Síochána abroad and for that reason we should be certain we know what we are doing and that we can answer the Irish people who will say to us that it is grand we are sending 500 people abroad to serve in a peacekeeping capacity — and Deputy Flaherty has said that Irish people have always been very generous when it comes to supporting Third World countries and those who are seeking independence — but what about the situation at home? If the Minister wants to fool himself that there is no real problem in the fight against crime he must be living on a different island than I am because every day you will read about people being mugged, raped, murdered or of houses being broken into.
I remember ten to 15 years ago, when these gentlemen up in the Press Gallery were doing their job, if there was a murder it would be a headline in the newspapers for two or three weeks. Everybody would be talking about it. People are murdered today and if lucky it merits two lines in the fourth or fifth page. The Minister is trying to convince us that there is no problem with regard to crime and that the Garda Síochána are going around saying this is a great place to work and that there are no morale problems in the force. What nonsense. Does the Minister ever talk to the ordinary rank and file garda who is frustrated by the fact that when people come in to lodge a complaint at the Garda station, the only thing he can do is to take details knowing full well that the Garda have not got the resources to find those who committed the crime and prevent it from happening again.
I do not know about other Members of the House, but I live in the Republic of Ireland. I read the newspapers, talk to people and listen to community organisations. I have received a letter from a neighbourhood watch group outlining their concern about the fact that we can dispatch members of the Garda Síochána abroad without regard to the home problem. I want to put it clearly on the record that we in the Fine Gael Party support the UN in their peacekeeping role and that we feel morally bound to play our part by offering to UNIFIL members of both the Garda Síochána and the Defence Forces. We are quite prepared to do that. I tabled an amendment to section 2 which is in the possession of Members that:
(3) Where a contingent of the Garda Síochána is despatched outside the State with an International United Nations Force, provision shall be made to add an equal number of gardaí to the numbers available for service in the State.
That does not apply just to Namibia or to the 35 members who are now being dispatched. I am very pleased that as a result of Fine Gael saying publicly last week that we would vote against this Bill unless we got an assurance from the Minister that he would replace the Garda Síochána members being sent abroad with new members in this country, the Minister in his Second Stage reply has given us that commitment. It is our job in opposition to point out these things and I thank the Minister for adhering to our demands and giving us an assurance that in this instance he will do what we have asked. That is an achievement on our part and I hope those who argue against us or who say we are doing nothing in opposition will take note of the fact that we do seek certain things and at times are very successful. The Minister has told us that he will take on 35 new members to replace those who are going away. I have respect for the Minister for Justice, Deputy Gerry Collins, who has done a reasonable job during both his terms in office but he will not always be Minister and I want to be assured that whenever a Minister for Justice decides to give a commitment to send X number of gardaí abroad we will not have to start issuing threats every day of the week and that a provision will be built into our legislation so that the gardaí who are sent abroad will be automatically replaced here.
As I said in my Second Stage contribution the Garda Síochána have lost 800 members in two years. Despite that, the Minister is trying to cover up that is the reality. If the Minister wishes I will table a written question tomorrow to get information to back up what I am saying. I will stand over what I am saying. The reality is that the Force has been reduced by approximately 800 during the past two years and that crime has not reduced in this country to justify that reduction. As Deputy Taylor said, I accept that adding more members to the Garda Síochána does not necessarily mean there will be less crime but it helps a lot if they are there and even if no imagination is being applied by this Government in terms of restructuring the Garda Síochána. As I said in my Second Stage contribution we should be supporting the juvenile liaison scheme and the neighbourhood watch scheme to try to prevent crime in the first place. There are cuts in those areas and if anybody has any doubts about that they should check the subhead in the Estimates. There is no reform, there are fewer gardaí, and I will stand over this, there is an increase in crime, most important of all, in serious crime. I had to face two parents whose son was stabbed to death by a crowd of thugs on his way home from a disco. The person who was with him was also stabbed and he has just been released from hospital. I had to face the parents of that 21 or 22 year old boy. Parents are extremely perturbed that their children cannot walk home from discos without a crowd of thugs jumping on them and in the case I am mentioning, stabbing one of them to death. That unfortunate incident was mentioned in a few news bulletins and we have not heard of it since but those two parents are at home minus a son. We should not fool ourselves that we do not have a problem. We have a problem and I believe that together we can do something about it.
I am trying to present a case for the Minister for Justice so that he can go back to the Cabinet table, bang the table and say: "I need more resources and I should not be expected to deal with a problem in this country, whether it is the IRA or crime, without the necessary resources, and if there is a cake to divide we should get our priorities right." I accept that there is only a certain size cake to be divided but what is important is how it is divided and where our priorities lie. I want sufficient support for the Minister for Justice so that he can get a bigger slice of whatever cake is available and ensure that people can walk in safety around our streets and that instead of the United Nations seeking our support to deal with problems abroad, we will not be looking for their support to deal with problems here at home, a prospect which may not be too farfetched, having regard to what is happening in Northern Ireland.
I accept that the Minister may have misunderstood what I said but I want to put on the record that what I said was that it is foolish and unwise not to give the Garda Síochána the necessary backup and support to root out the arms and ammunition in the possession of the IRA. I do not want, nor ever intended, it to be implied that I ignored the success of the Garda Síochána. I will fully support them again if they endeavour to get into their control all of the arms and ammunition that are in the hands of these thugs. However, one needs resources for that.
Before this debate started I got a letter from the Ceann Comhairle telling me that unfortunately my amendment had been adjudged out of order as it involved a potential charge on the Exchequer. I ask you, Sir, to change your mind because that is not factual. The Minister has just told us that the UN are paying for the services of the Garda Síochána who are going to Namibia so how can my proposal involve a potential charge on the Exchequer? It is not. Deputy Taylor said that I am fooling myself that the UN owe us £15 million. That may be so but we are owed that amount and it is up to the Government to collect it. We are entitled to this money. I argue that my amendment is in order because it does not involve a charge on the Exchequer and that it is wise to build into our legislation a provision which ensures that members of the Garda Síochána who are sent abroad, are replaced here as long as the situation in this country continues. We should use the money we get from the UN to pay for the salaries of those who are taken on to replace those who go abroad. If we have to enter into an agreement with the UN that they refund all of the costs so be it but now is the time to debate and decide this issue. The Government should negotiate to make certain that if we provide these people the UN will pick up the tab. There are far richer nations in the United Nations than poor old mother Ireland, nations that can well afford to make a contribution. We are supplying the best quality one could find in terms of members of the Defence Forces and Garda Síochána. There is no better quality in any police force in any part of the world and we should be proud to say that. However, one can only squeeze so much from an orange and one cannot expect a reduced Force to do the job expected of them. People can only be worked so hard and they cannot be expected to perform miracles.
I want the Ceann Comhairle to reconsider his decision in relation to my amendment in the light of what the Minister has told us. I maintain that the subsection in my amendment is in order and that it would be wise for this House to include it in the Bill bearing in mind that we will never get a chance again to debate this issue.
We should not be side tracked by Namibia, which happens to be the place at this time, because this Bill enables future Governments to dispatch members of the Garda Síochána on UN service to Namibia or elsewhere. I want protection to be built into the Bill both for the members of the Garda Síochána who will serve there with regard to the conditions they will serve under and the facilities available to them and also for those who are left behind here. Thirty-five members are going abroad and the remainder are to be asked to perform the duties of those who are going. There will be well over 10,000 members left behind who will be asked to perform the duties of those who have gone away. The Minister in this instance has given a guarantee, for which I thank him, that the 35 men going away immediately will be replaced, but I am thinking about the future.
Would the Chair reconsider my amendment in the light of what the Minister has told us? I would argue that it is in order. If so, I am asking the Members of this House to support me in having it incorporated into the legislation. It will not in any way take away from our commitment to support the United Nations or, in this instance, to support the people of Namibia. It will give us a guarantee for the future that as well as helping other people we will also help ourselves. Our duty as legislators is to see to it that those who elected us can walk the streets in peace and comfort without fear of being mugged, raped, or otherwise attacked. That is our duty, in addition to supporting the less well off people in other countries and accepting our responsibility in that area. My amendment will not interfere with either of those commitments.
I wish to make a brief comment on what Deputy Barrett has said. The principle contained in section 2 is an important one — that the Government be allowed to dispatch abroad members of the Garda Síochána to participate in the work of the United Nations peacekeeping initiatives. The section allows the Government to determine the numbers involved, which is correct, in consultation, no doubt, with the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána.
I do not believe that at any stage the Commissioner would advise the Government to dispatch such numbers as would seriously deplete the Garda Síochána to such an extent that they would be unable to carry out their duties. It has been pointed out that the number we are talking about is one third of 1 per cent of the numbers available. We must keep this matter in perspective. When one looks at the contribution of other smaller nations to the current force, Ireland is making what could be described as a rather modest contribution but, nonetheless, it is significant.
I would like to see the complete support of this House for our commitment to these peacekeeping initiatives. If we are concerned about the availability of gardaí to do their job correctly, the Minister might advise the House how many members of the Garda Síochána are at the moment employed in driving Government Ministers to various functions, how many are currently employed in protection duties with regard to former Taoisigh or on protection work in regard to members of the Fine Gael Party, colleagues of Deputy Barrett.
And looking after some of the activities of The Workers' Party in the past.
These could so easily be redeployed or reorganised to release members and make them available.
On manning levels, I have indicated that my area is one that would be well served by a new Garda station in the Donaghmede area. This is essential. The Minister can provide only an office there and part-time staff. I have indicated major problems with regard to public transport that need policing attention and the Garda Síochána have, in consultation with authorities in Dublin Bus and Rail, provided a special force to deal with trouble on the DART line. There are always needs, particular and general. If there is disquiet, I would invite Deputy Barrett and his party to consider putting down a motion on Private Members' Business so that it could be debated at length and in detail in the proper context.
He would not do that. He would be afraid that he might win.
It would certainly get the support of other parties on this side of the House——
We look forward to meeting them.
——in seeking whatever reasonable requirements are asked of Government with regard to policing. That is the proper way to go about it. The principle contained in section 2 is a good one which, in the context of the immediate objective of securing the peaceful transition to democracy in Namibia, is one that we should all support unequivocally.
As my colleague, Deputy Barrett, has stated, there is a need to tighten up section 2 to ensure adequate compensation in Garda staffing levels here to make up for the numbers that would travel overseas on UN duty. I do not wish at this stage to speak on the overall Namibian situation, but would accept what the Minister has stated, that we should not be found wanting in our aid to developing States and our country has been internationally recognised for so doing.
Section 2 as at present drafted is a little open-ended. While the Minister has given an assurance that the 35 persons whom he has in mind sending immediately will be replaced, nobody has any idea what the future might hold. Deputy McCartan, speaking of one-third of 1 per cent of the Garda force being involved, considered that to be a very small number. With the exception of the Minister, I am the first rural Deputy, or non-Dublin based Deputy, to address this Bill this morning. I can tell Deputy McCartan, and all other Deputies who may be concerned, that one-third of 1 per cent, or even one garda, is a vital resource in many areas. The demise of the rural Garda station must be addressed at the earliest opportunity. There we are talking about far fewer in number than one-third of 1 per cent.
Were we arbitrarily to empower Ministers for Justice to rubber-stamp numbers of gardaí for overseas duties, I fear that we would run the risk of depleting our already hard pressed force at home. That may not seem likely at present but there is always that possibility unless we tighten up the legislation somewhat. The Minister stated that the United Nations will be prepared to compensate in terms of remuneration for these services abroad, so Deputy Barrett's amendment does not involve a charge on the Exchequer.
The problem of crime in rural areas, in particular, must be addressed at the earliest opportunity. In many Garda stations there is a massive backlog of filing and there is very little being done in terms of crime detection by virtue of the one sergeant and two gardaí regime. This necessitates a constant foot patrol which does not allow for the administrative tasks that gardaí in rural areas must now undertake. This matter must be looked into, so that this legislation will not hit even harder our depleted Garda numbers. The Minister now has an opportunity to state specifically his intentions with regard to Garda recruitment.
Statistics appear to show that something like 400 gardaí resign, retire or die each year, yet it is being said that by recruiting 300 we are advancing in the area of Garda numbers and crime detection. In fact, this is only a holding operation. There was a great deal of talk about the 1,000 recruits but they are to be taken into the force over a three-year period. Almost 2,000 people applied and some have been notified that if they wait until 1991 they might be considered. That is particularly sad and we should have a sense of shame about being in any way responsible for it.
We must receive an assurance from the UN that they will be prepared to pay compensation. Deputy Taylor again stated that the rather large sum of £15 million is outstanding. We should not allow a further bill to be run up and we must ensure that the proper arrangements for compensation and funding are in place before any of these 35 gardaí enter an aircraft. I hope the Minister when replying will give an indication as to long-term projections. The number involved now is only 35, but it could easily rise to 350 or 1,000. If that happens there will be great difficulties in the domestic service unless there is adequate recruiting.
The public will not thank us for allowing Garda numbers to be depleted. I recognise that we should make a contribution towards the United Nations and a developing State, but if we allow our force to run down there will be serious difficulties, particularly in rural areas. I would ask the Minister to investigate certain blackspots such as the constituency of Laois-Offaly where there is a drain on Garda resources because of the high security prison at Portlaoise. That should not be used as an excuse to cut Garda hours and allow stations in outlying areas to open for only three or four hours at a time, while other stations are completely closed. If we send gardaí overseas to work in other States we run the risk of fostering discontent at home in areas where there are blackspots.
The Minister recognises the tremendous contribution of the gardaí in making arms finds, particularly this year. I agree that they are to be highly commended. They have done a tremendous job, especially in view of their lack of resources. However, one Garda car roving through the Slieve Bloom Mountains on a 24-hour basis will not add to the crime detection statistics. They are working under very difficult circumstances and performing brilliantly. I hope the Minister will examine the problem of blackspots to which I have referred and not allow manpower resources to run down.
I will not comment on Deputy McCartan's statement concerning members of the Garda Síochána engaged in security tasks of a non-crime detection kind, but the Minister might consider the number of gardaí who are engaged in menial tasks such as typing and locking documents in filing cabinets. These and other tasks have little to do with the proper function of the Garda Síochána. If recruits cannot be brought in immediately on a large scale, secretaries or administrative staff should be employed, at least on a part-time basis. There is not much point in hoping that a garda in a rural town can do his job adequately if he has to type memos and statements. Many members of the force are seriously hampered by the necessity to do these jobs. They feel that their position in the community is under threat because they cannot produce results due to being hampered by administrative duties. I hope the Minister will reconsider Deputy Barrett's amendment and that it will receive the universal acclaim of the House.
I welcome the Minister's commitment to recruit 300 people to the Garda Síochána this year. It is a move in the right direction but they will not come on stream for two years following their induction to the training scheme. It is the best offer available. Deputy Barrett's amendment is out of order. Perhaps it might be better to provide that the Minister could by regulation allow a contingent to take part in a UN force. Those regulations should also deal with the personnel available at home. If a contingent is going for eight months or a year, by the time any extra recruits come on stream that contingent will be a memory. Once we enter into a peacekeeping force, further opportunities will constantly arise and this might become an ongoing exercise. The Minister might indicate that he will continue the kind of commitment he has given today and ensure that numbers will be made up by ongoing recruitment. While it would not take effect immediately, at least it would mean the force would not be further depleted.
The Minister must be aware that there are a lot of personnel difficulties in the Garda. This change will probably give rise to lengthy negotiations with the various associations. When Deputy Barrett put down his amendment the Ceann Comhairle examined it and rejected it because it would involve additional costs.
I contend that the Minister has ample opportunity to increase the numbers by recalling the many gardaí on career breaks or leave of absence. I recall making representations about a number of gardaí on career breaks who have not been taken back. I do not know the current position but about 12 months ago there were about 40 or 50 gardaí on career breaks who had expected to get back almost immediately when the break was over, but the Department of Justice refused to take them back. Perhaps the Minister will comment on the up to date position. Perhaps the schedule in relation to career breaks and leave of absence has changed but there was an opportunity in the Bill to expand the position in relation to recruitment, transfers, leave of absence and so on. Deputy Colley referred to regulations and maybe that is the way to do it. It would have been very satisfactory if the Minister had indicated he was bringing about reform in this area.
Deputy Flanagan referred to the recruitment of 1,000 new gardaí and there has been a call for many years about better training. If the Minister intends to tackle this in a realistic way he is to be commended. The 300 new gardaí will certainly bring up the numbers and counter natural wastage. However, as other speakers on this side of the House said, a real opportunity has been lost. I know this is a short Bill, brought through the House with commendable speed, but it would have been an opportunity to give the Minister and the Department scope to change the antiquated systems in the personnel section of the Department of Justice and the Garda Síochána. It is a lost opportunity.
I am very disappointed at the allegation by Deputy McCartan about the security personnel guarding members of the Fine Gael Party. He has a niggardly approach to security.
The Minister, in his reply to Second Stage, indicated he would not go down cul-de-sacs and that everything in the garden was rosy. He said that crime was under control and that there were adequate gardaí. If he goes down that road he will come up against difficulties at the end of it because that is far from the truth.
I did not say that.
Well, that is what the Minister was leading up to. The truth is that when the Minister and his party were in opposition they levelled plenty of criticism at the state of manning levels in the Garda Síochána. The position is considerably worse since his party took over and the cutbacks have hit the Department of Justice as viciously as every other Department. The position in relation to crime is very serious and old people and those living alone are frightened. Never mind crime detection, there is also the question of protection of the elderly and women living on their own who very often are surrounded by gangs of thugs at night. They are scared out of their wits; they send for the Garda who cannot supply someone to protect them. That is the case in my constituency and I am sure it applies in many others.
We all know the situation is extremely serious and that those cutbacks have an effect. They may not affect some upper class regions which may not need Garda protection, but that is not the case in other areas which have been badly hit. The superintendent in my constituency told me he applied for an additional 20 gardaí but was given the cold shoulder. That is just in one station.
We are sending 35 gardaí to Namibia. That is fine and I support it 100 per cent, but they should not be sent from an already depleted Garda force. That is not acceptable because we are looking for an increase in the number of gardaí and for their presence on the beat so that people and their goods are protected. Large areas of densely populated urban areas never see a Garda presence. The Minister seems to have abandoned the neighbourhood watch scheme because they have not got the resources and support they need. The theft of cars and drunken driving takes place every day.
While we are pleased to fulfil our international obligations by sending a national contingency to Namibia, the Minister should also ensure that our needs are met. I could take the Minister to people in Tallaght who would be outraged that gardaí were being sent to Namibia when their needs have not been met. They would have some pretty sharp comments to make on that score. We must emphasise that our needs at home come first and if we have gardaí to spare we can send them abroad if the United Nations pay for it.
They should pay for it.
The Minister outlines the situation in Namibia and I did not like the sound of it. It did not sound a healthy place but of course we must not shirk our duty. The training and resources should be given but I should like to know if a senior Garda officer has gone to Namibia to see what is going on and what our men and women will be facing. Are we relying on reports from Fiji or somewhere else?
There are many people in that country in various militaristic groupings of one hue or another and the very least we can do to protect our gardaí is to send out a senior group of suitably qualified people to see what is happening. They should assess the situation to ensure that the people we send out will not be at a greater risk than necessary. Obviously there will be some risk, there is no doubt about that. If there was no risk, the need to send them would not have arisen. However, the risk must be kept to a minimum and that requires on the ground inspections and assessments. Has the inspection been carried out? Has the assessment been made as to what is required and the risks involved? The House is entitled to know. What specific measures will be taken to ensure that the maximum possible resources and protection will be given to those men and women who have so bravely volunteered to leave the relative safety of Ireland and go to foreign fields where the political situation is in a state of flux and where risks will have to be met by them? Therefore, the House is entitled to receive some further information on that issue before it decides to pass this measure.
It is very difficult to reply because we have had a very wideranging Second Stage type debate on an amendment which was ruled out of order but I will reply in the best way I can in a spirit of co-operation to the points that were made. I appreciate that much of what was said was said out of genuine concern.
I also understand why practically everything else was said, perhaps it had more to do with political reasons rather than for the reasons I would have wished but be that as it may concern has been expressed that if we were to send members of the Garda Síochána to Namibia that the Garda force in certain areas would be depleted. I have already dealt with this issue. The Garda Commissioner has advised me that he would spread the draw geographically so as to ensure that no great inconvenience would be caused. I also said, and it is important that I repeat it now, that 20 gardai who took career breaks are on the way back, as against the 23 to go out. This would be of some help to us. In reply to the point raised by Deputy Carey, and I hope that his colleagues will relay this to him — I can readily accept his absence — there is no prohibition on members of the force at present on career breaks coming back. They would be most welcome as we have work for them to do.
I know this is totally out of order but for the information of Deputy Taylor, and it relates to a point raised, I am glad to say that within the past month a community police scheme has come into operation in the area of Tallaght he mentioned. Two sergeants and 15 gardaí are involved in this scheme. I am advised by the Commissioner that the scheme is working exceptionally well and has been greatly welcomed by the community. Without this co-operation the scheme would not be workable. Let me say also, and I mean this sincerely, that an indication of the height of morale in the force can be gauged from the fact that each one of the gardaí who has gone to Tallaght has gone there voluntarily.
They got the resources.
Can the Deputy not be gracious enough to accept what I am saying, that those who have gone to Tallaght to do what has been described as a most difficult job in an area that has been described as very difficult have gone there voluntarily.
They got the support.
Please, Deputy, allow the Minister to continue without interruption.
The Deputies should make their own speeches. I do not interrupt Deputies when they speak, quibble with them or divert them down culs-desac similar to the one Deputy Taylor brought me down a few minutes or so ago and which I did my best to avoid.
I will now deal very briefly with a number of points made by Deputy Barrett. The question of overtime would not arise. The allowances would reflect the number of hours worked. There would be an effort to deal with it on the basis of hours on, hours off.
The Deputy also rightly referred to the type of accommodation to be used. I have been advised by the commissioner that although this accommodation would be basic he is satisfied that it would be adequate. It would be of the bunk house type. As I said earlier on, they would all be volunteers and the commissioner would make it clear to each of them that it would not be a picnic they would be going on. They would be fully briefed on the present position in the country.
In reply to a point made by Deputy Taylor, members of the force have visited the country and reported back to the Commissioner. They are satisfied that they would be capable of dealing with the problems they would face there. Former assistant commissioner Fanning who led the Garda effort in this area visited the country on a number of occasions. It has been said, but I cannot comment on this officially, that he may be the UN person involved out there. This is not a matter for us but rather for the United Nations.
Deputy Barrett asked if they would be able to get special leave to come home. I am sure that no special leave would be given before the elections are held. If an emergency was to arise, that would be a separate matter and would be dealt with separately. Deputy Barrett also asked as to what the balance would be as between males and females. I cannot give him an answer to this as that would be a matter for the Garda Commissioner. I am sure no one would suggest that either I or the Government should say to the commissioner that females and males should be chosen. It would be a matter for his professional judgement bearing in mind the tasks they would have to undertake. That is all I have to say at this stage. I am leaving all the red herrings by the wayside on this occasion.
In the light of the information given by the Minister, I suggest that the Chair now agree that the amendment I tabled is in order as no additional charge would be imposed on the Exchequer and there is no reason any additional charge should be imposed on the Exchequer in the future. It is within the powers of the Government to negotiate with the United Nations on suitable arrangements. I do not wish to show any great disrespect for the Minister but all of the time he seems to concentrate, when replying to points made, on one particular country, that is, Namibia. What I am at pains to point out is that this legislation would enable the Government in the future to dispatch members of the Garda Síochána to take up UN peace-keeping duties all over the place.
I ask the Government to ensure that in future negotiations with the United Nations, not alone in respect of Namibia but in respect of any other country where members may be asked to take up duty, they seek guarantees that we would be able to recoup our costs in sending our top personnel abroad. After all, it is the talent and skills of the members of the Garda Síochána that are being sought after. We recognise that we do have our financial difficulties and that there are other richer nations who can well afford to pay up so that the money owed to us at present can be paid. We would be showing no lack of commitment in respect of our resolve to have members of the Garda Síochána participate in such a peacekeeping force if we were to ask for what we are duly entitled to. At the end of the day, the qualities of the people we have to offer are what has attracted the attention of the United Nations and we should not be afraid to say so. It is an established fact that the talents of our Defence Force personnel were extremely attractive to UNIFIL. They are good at the job of peacekeeping and I am quite confident that the members of the Garda Síochána would be equally as good.
We are faced with our own problems and it would be foolish for anyone to say otherwise. All I am asking is that we insert a subsection into the Bill, the provisions of which would oblige future Governments in deciding to send 50 or 100 members of the Garda Síochána to a particular country to seek guarantees that we would be paid by the United Nations, that they keep the strength of the Garda Síochána at its existing level and not reduce it by way of the number of personnel to be sent abroad.
I do not wish to make a political point on this issue as this is serious legislation. The Bill may be short but it is not the length of a Bill that is important, rather it is the powers that would be made available. It is our duty to point out to the Government that there is concern on this side of the House, I can only speak for ourselves, and above all else that there is concern among the people. The points we make here reflect the views made known to us by people in our clinics and by various deputations.
It is our duty to highlight those issues when we get the opportunity. The Minister may feel he is being taken down a cul-de-sac, but I do not hold the same view. These are important issues. We are being asked to give the Government power to dispatch members of the Garda Síochána. Before they can make that decision we need answers as to whether the home front will be looked after when these people go abroad. There may be only 35 today but it could be 300 in three or four years' time, and they will be out there under this legislation. Therefore, it is important to establish the facts and not to regard it as being taken down a cul-de-sac.
We have to make our case and point out why we have these concerns. It would be different if we had no crime and there were 12,000 members of the Garda Síochána floating around as happy as Larry scratching their heads and wondering what they are going to do the next day. That is not the case and we would be foolish to think it is. To make a case as to why a subsection like this is necessary in legislation it is important to point out these things. If anybody else has a more brilliant idea or a better suggestion than I have proposed here, I would be glad to hear it and debate it and I would be delighted to accept it once it is within the general spirit of what I am trying to achieve. The immediate problem we have is to ask, in the light of the information now supplied to the Dáil by the Minister, is if my amendment is out of order. I claim it is no longer out of order because it is clearly not a charge on the Exchequer.
Acting Chairman
I must remind you that the Ceann Comhairle has ruled your amendment out of order and I must uphold the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle.
With respect, the letter from the Ceann Comhairle and received when I came into the House was written prior to the Minister's announcement in the Dáil Chamber. Circumstances have changed since that ruling was made.
That is a good try.
You now have an opportunity of reconsidering the position in the light of the new information available to us.
Acting Chairman
Deputy, I must abide by the ruling of the Ceann Comhairle and he has ruled that your amendment is out of order.
Is section 2 agreed?
No.
Question put and declared carried.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That section 3 stand part of the Bill."
Let me raise a query about the expression "during a specified period". Subsection (1) reads:
Where a member of the Garda Síochána has offered in writing to render himself liable for external service during a specified period and the Commissioner has accepted the offer, this section shall apply to that member during that period.
Does that mean that the volunteer has to specify a period of six months, eight months, a year or whatever, or is that laid down in the circulars that would issue from the commissioner? How is this period calculated? Is that a finality? I thought the Minister told us the initial tour was a fluid one, that it could be for a minimum of eight months, or it could be for a year. How could anything as fluid as that be a specified period? I would like to know for the clarification of the House, how exactly that is to operate. Is there a degree of fluidity there or is a period by way of variation of the contract provided for?
A form would be made up by the Commissioner which the volunteer would be asked to sign to say he agrees to become part of the force to serve as and from such a date to such a time, and at the end of the time period the Commissioner would decide what he thought would be the proper time and if there was a question of extending it, that would be provided for by the Commissioner.
I asked about the initial period.
I am advised an eight month period is what would be expected.
Can the Minister say whether the regulations which govern the Garda Síochána at the moment would still be in force while such a group were serving with the UN, or are there separate regulations which govern UN peacekeeping forces?
I understand the same regulations will apply to members of the force. They are still members of the Garda Síochána.
Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
I move amendment No. 2:
In page 3, before section 4, to insert the following new section:
"4.—(1) The Minister may by regulations, made with the consent of the Minister for Health, provide for the keeping of a record of—
(a) the death of a member of the Garda Síochána,
(b) the death of the spouse or any of such other members of the family of a member of the Garda Síochána as may be specified in the regulations, and
(c) the birth of a child of a member of the Garda Síochána,
occurring outside the State while the member of the Garda Síochána is serving outside the State with an International United Nations Force and, as respects a death referred to in paragraph (b) of this subsection or a birth, in such circumstances as may be specified in the regulations.
(2) Records kept pursuant to regulations made under this section shall be—
(a) authenticated in such manner as may be specified in the regulations by such person as may be specified for that purpose in the regulations, and
(b) transmitted to an tArd-Chláraitheoir in such manner as may be specified in the regulations.
(3) (a) An tArd-Chláraitheoir shall maintain a register to be known as the Garda Síochána Deaths Register Book (in this section referred to as the Deaths Book) and shall cause an entry to be made in the Deaths Book of each record of a death transmitted to him under this section.
(b) An tArd-Chláraitheoir shall maintain a register to be known as the Garda Síochána Births Register Book (in this section referred to as the Births Book) and shall cause an entry to be made in the Births Book of each record of a birth transmitted to him under this section.
(c) An entry made under paragraph (a) or (b) of this subsection shall be in such form as may be specified in the regulations under this section and shall contain such particulars as may be specified in those regulations.
(d) The Deaths Book and the Births Book shall, for the purposes of the Births and Deaths Registration Acts, 1863 to 1987, be deemed to be register books within the meaning of those Acts, but paragraph (3) of section 27 of the Births and Deaths Registration Act (Ireland), 1880, shall, in its application to the Deaths Book and the Births Book have effect as if—
(i) ‘upon payment of the appointed fee, and' were deleted, and
(ii) the reference therein to a statutory declaration made by one or more persons required by that Act to give information concerning the birth or death referred to in that paragraph were a reference to a statement in writing made by a person specified under paragraph (a) of subsection (2) of this section.
(4) An tArd-Chláraitheoir shall keep at his office an index to the Deaths Book and an index to the Births Book; and persons shall be entitled to search the indices and to have a certified copy of an entry in the Deaths Book or the Births Book or of items contained in the entry on the same terms and conditions in all respects as to fees and otherwise as are applicable under the Births and Deaths Registration Acts, 1863 to 1987, or any other enactment in respect of the registers of births and deaths; and such fees shall be collected and disposed of in the same manner as fees payable under the said recited Acts.
(5) Every regulation made under this section shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas as soon as may be after it is made and, if a resolution annulling the regulation is passed by either such House within the next subsequent 21 days on which that House has sat after the regulation is laid before it, the regulation shall be annulled accordingly but without prejudice to the validity of anything previously done thereunder.".
The amendment, which is modelled on section 6 of the Defence (Amendment) (No. 2) Act, 1960 is to provide for registration, in this State, of the death outside the State, of a member of the Garda Síochána, his spouse or other relative while such a member is on service overseas with the United Nations. The amendment also provides for the registration of the birth outside the State of a child of such a member.
I am sure that I speak for all of us here when I say that it is our most sincere wish that all members of the Garda Síochána would return safe and well to this country on the conclusion of their overseas service. At the same time, however, it is important that, in the event of a fatality among a Garda contingent serving outside the State, there is a clear, straightforward procedure which ensures a minimum of delay in the settlement of the deceased member's estate.
The amendment removes any question of reliance on the civil authorities of the country where a member's death occurs to expedite arrangements for registration of death and ensures that relatives do not have to encounter problems posed by civil unrest, language barriers, etc. which could conceivably arise in communications with such authorities.
The net effect of invoking the provisions of the amendment would be to speed up the payment of pension, insurance and other moneys due to the spouse of a member of the Garda Síochána who dies on service with the United Nations. I have no doubt that Deputies will agree that we could not tolerate a situation where there was a delay in payment of such moneys to a member's dependants in the time of their bereavement. The amendment which I am now moving will guard against such a situation arising.
I now want to outline the contents of the amendment. Subsection (1) enables the Minister for Justice, with the consent of the Minister for Health, to make regulations to provide for the registration of certain births and deaths occurring outside the State while a member of the Garda Síochána is on external service with the United Nations.
Subsection (2) provides for the authentication and transmission to an tArd-Chláraitheóir of records kept pursuant to regulations.
Subsection (3) provides that An tArd-Chláraitheóir shall maintain a deaths register and births register and shall enter particulars of each record of a birth or death transmitted to him in such form as may be specified in regulations. This subsection also provides, inter alia, that the deaths register and births register are deemed register books for the purposes of the Births and Deaths Registration Acts, 1863 to 1987.
Subsection (4) provides for the keeping of indices to the birth and death books and empowers persons to search the indices and obtain a copy of an entry on payment of the appropriate fee.
Subsection (5) provides for the manner in which regulations are to be laid before each House of the Oireachtas.
Again, I wish to express the hope that it will never be necessary to put the provision in the amendment for registration of death into effect but, as I have already said, it is most important to ensure that this safeguard is in place.
The amendment provides for special registration arrangements in connection with deaths and births, but there is a third category that is normally provided for. I mean marriages. Is there any reason that is excluded?
We felt there was not the same urgency about putting in a provision for marriage.
There could be.
I hope not. I did not think there would be a need for it, but I am not saying it may not happen.
Amendment agreed to.
Acting Chairman
As it is now 1.30 p.m. I am required to put the following question in accordance with an Order of the Dáil of this day:
That the section undisposed of and the Title are hereby agreed to; that the Bill, as amended, is hereby agreed to in Committee and is reported to the House; and that Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed.
Question put and agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.