Deputy Deenihan is in possession and has seven minutes left of the time allotted to him.
Private Members' Business. - Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) (Amendment) Bill, 1989: Second Stage. (Resumed)
Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
Last Wednesday night speaking to this Private Members' Bill I made three points: first, that the appointment of vocational teachers should be carried out in a manner which is both fair, impartial and above suspicion; second, that the appointment of vocational teachers should be carried out by people who are skilled in interviewing techniques and who have the professional training and background to ensure that the very best candidate is appointed to the job; and third, that these objectives would be met by passing the Bill before the House.
It has been alleged that passing this Bill would result in the weakening of local democracy. It has also been alleged that the Bill is too narrow and should include both secondary and primary schools. I would like to deal with some of these points this evening. I wholeheartedly believe in vocational education for a number of reasons, not least of which is that it is publicly controlled by elected representatives. It is the only system of education which is so controlled. The vast proportion of schools are privately owned and managed, though paid for by the State.
Deputy Higgins referred last week to the struggle which the VEC system had to undergo to get established and be maintained. He spoke of the assurance which had to be given by the then Minister for Education, the former Deputy John Marcus O'Sullivan, to the Hierarchy in allowing the schools to be established. I found his remarks so interesting that I sought and obtained the letter to which he referred. I have discoverd that the then Minister for Education not only gave the assurances to which Deputy Higgins referred but was also forced to give the following assurance. I quote from the letter:
By their very nature and purpose the schools to be provided under this Act are distinctly not schools for general education. General education, after the age of 14 years, will continue to be given in primary and in secondary schools. When we can afford to make more universal a system of general education for post-primary pupils it cannot be through the medium of these continuation schools.
Indeed, they did become schools for general education.
But the Minister must admit that the Minister of the day had to overcome a lot of opposition to his Bill, and it is to the credit of the former Deputy John Marcus O'Sullivan that this Bill was put through eventually and vocational education is so successful.
The vocational system has always been under attack. Unfortunately, the present Minister attacked the system at its jugular when she introduced expenditure cuts which have left the vocational system disadvantaged vis-à-vis other sections. The cuts introduced by the Minister have resulted in larger classes, the loss of subjects, redundancies among teachers, and a dearth of remedial and guidance education. More importantly, the disadvantaged have been further disadvantaged.
My party can justly and proudly claim to have come to the assistance of vocational education in Dáil Éireann. It was a Fine Gael proposal carried by the House which subsequently allowed the teachers to negotiate with the Government on the cuts issue and to stave off the worst effects of the cuts. For any Deputy, either on the Opposition or on the Government sides of the House, to suggest Fine Gael are damaging vocational education or local democracy by putting forward this Bill, I say they are mistaken and they should examine our record in regard to vocational education.
I believe this Bill will strengthen vocational education and remove the taunt and allegation of political interference in appointments. This can only aid the system. The only point at issue is that the best person gets the job. Selecting the best person for the job is a matter for the experts, and I suggest that we leave it to them.
Both Deputy Quill and Deputy Higgins have commented that they wished to see the Bill broader based. Deputy Quill referred to the Green Paper published by Deputy Hussey and Deputy Higgins referred to the thorny issue of the control of education. He suggested that the Local Appointments Commission should be extended to both primary and secondary teachers. To both of these Deputies I say that one must start somewhere. In putting forward this Bill my colleague, Deputy Birmingham, has made an excellent start. He has addressed an issue which is of crucial importance to our education system. Without good teachers we will not have a good education service. This Bill will ensure that we would get good teachers, the best teachers; nothing could be more important.
The question of the appointments procedure in respect of vocational teachers has been a source of controversy over the past 50 years. As I said, it has taken courage and foresight on the part of Deputy Birmingham to address this issue. I have here a quotation from the Irish Independent of Monday, 6 April 1959, which describes the appointment of vocational teachers as a discredit to democracy. I have also quotations from editions of the Irish Independent and The Irish Times of last year in relation to a row which broke out in Dublin VEC regarding the appointment of a vice-principal at St. Kevin's Community College in Clondalkin. In that case the recommendation of the selection committee was not accepted by the vocational education committee. An article in The Irish Times stated:
The row over the appointment of a vice-principal for St. Kevin's Community College in Clondalkin, Co. Dublin, and the allegations of political pressure being exerted by members of the VEC, ended yesterday when the VEC decided to accept the recommendation of the selection board.
I say to all Members——
I must now call another speaker, Deputy.
——that they must make up their own minds on this Bill. In accepting this Bill Deputies would remove any suspicion that may be associated with the appointment of vocational education teachers.
It gives me particular pleasure to make a contribution in this House on vocational education, not least because it was the great Kerry educationalist, John Marcus O'Sullivan, who hails from that great bastion of Irish education, who was the pioneer of vocational education in Ireland. It would be fair to say——
Up Kerry.
——that most people want to be fair, some want to be seen to be fair, others only want to be seen to be fair while others wanting to be fair and to be seen to be fair end up being unfair to others.
It is regrettable to say the least that Deputy Birmingham should have drawn an analogy between the British controlled system of local authorities in Ireland and our own independent local authorities. For many hundreds of years we sought independence to have control of our own affairs. To say the very least, it was unfortunate that Deputy Birmingham should have drawn an analogy between an elected local authority in a democratic and sovereign country with that of a British controlled system of educational appointments.
There is no point denying that heretofore comments were riddled with innuendo that in some way local politicians, by a nod, wink or a stroke did in people when they applied for jobs as vocational education teachers. In justice to those people, to the VECs, to county councillors and urban councillors throughout it should be clearly stated that since the foundation of the State their role in vocational education has been, to say the very least, magnificent, munificent and magnanimous. Down the years VECs have contributed enormously not just at second level but in later years at third level. They have produced from third level education colleges graduates who are sought throughout the world, men and women who can take their place with the best in various sectors of the economy, in education itself and in many other ways.
Deputy Birmingham said the selection procedure had led to low morale within vocational education. Is there now a suggestion or innuendo that the teachers who were selected by VECs were in some way incapable of carrying out their tasks, in some way loath to do acts which would not become their high calling, involved in some nod or wink way where they did not fulfil their role effectively or properly? I would regret any such innuendo.
The proposer of the Bill says he wants to place the selection procedure of vocational teachers on the same level as pertains in the public sector generally. Deputy Birmingham has not yet objected to district justices, Circuit Court judges, High Court judges, Supreme Court judges or even the Chief Justice himself being selected by the Government. His own Government selected them. Deputy Birmingham, the proposer of the Bill, and those who support him have raised no objection to the role played by the Senate of the National University of Ireland in the selection of the presidents of UCC, UCD or other educational establishments. Deputy Birmingham has raised no objection to the selection by the Government of the Chief Commissioner of the Garda or even an objection to the selection by his own Government of the Ombudsman who is entrusted with the role of deciding on applications to him by various people on their everyday lives where bureaucracy is concerned.
This brings me to the matter of who appoints local councillors, be they urban or county councillors. Local councillors are selected by the people and are answerable directly to the people. They are rejected or selected on foot of their performance, and on foot of their performance their political lives are determined.
What is the situation in other schools regarding the selection of teachers procedure? Secondary schools select their own teachers and the State has no input there whatsoever. There is a system of selection in primary schools but, again, it is completely different from what Deputy Birmingham proposes in his Bill. Is there a valid or good reason that the selection procedure in vocational schools should be different from the selection procedure in community and comprehensive schools? One could go on and on. There is an inconsistency. We have zoned in on one system with much innuendo in relation to the role of those involved in the selection procedure, virtually all of whom have been so involved honourably over the years.
There is no point in saying this proposal does not erode the powers of local authorities. Of course it does. The fact that you take away the selection of teachers procedure from local authorities' representatives on VECs of necessity erodes that power. Not only of necessity does it erode the power; it insults the integrity of many of the people who have been involved in VECs throughout the years. If one is to say these powers should be eroded in this fashion, could the argument not be made, for example, that voluntary hospitals should not have politicians of any hue on their boards? One must be consistent. If one goes down the line one finds oneself asking the question, "Who guards the guards?".
There has been tremendous success in regional colleges over a number of years, not least in my own county. Tralee Regional Technical College is serving not just the county of Kerry but much of Munster in tremendous fashion and has, like other regional colleges, close links with the VEC. Indeed, the VEC in County Kerry pioneered outdoor education at Cappanalea outside Killorglin. Every gesture and act of that committee down the years to the best of my knowledge, has, to say the least, been above reproach.
Turning to the modern needs of vocational education, I say there is a grave need for greater interaction between colleges and industry. If we are to talk about people being involved in the selection of teachers procedure, we should look at the role industry has to play in vocational education, not just in terms of its direct input but in terms of the employment which industry can give to graduates from regional colleges and the selection procedure itself. There is a very strong argument to be made for involving people engaged in the industrial world in the selection of vocational teachers and there is a great need for a greater link between regional colleges and the National University of Ireland universities and the technological universities. Graduates in certificate courses and people with diplomas coming out of regional colleges should be given a credit level and an opportunity to go on to obtain a degree in the field of activity where they have distinguished themselves.
There is a growing realisation, which was contained in the manifesto of this Government prior to the last election, of a need to concentrate on the resources we possess. Agriculture, forestry, food, fisheries, and horticulture must be targeted by RTCs as areas of future potential employment. In these areas lies the success or failure of the economy. In this regard it is crucial that we stimulate educational interest and awareness in all these areas. As matters now stand we are, without question, lacking certain experts in these fields to take this country and its people into the next century. Technological expertise and the concentration of resources on these areas should be accompanied by an educational system in RTCs, and at first hand in vocational schools, in order that we would have people with the expertise to advise those who will be involved in these areas of activity.
Vocational education itself was one of the great innovative ideas in this century. Its concentration on the personal skills of individuals, on their expertise in various crafts and their preparation for life has produced extraordinary success. Times change just as people do and with changing times there is the necessity to diversify the sphere of activity in which colleges and schools are involved, a need for greater awareness of the fact that what did yesterday or the day before may not do today and certainly will not do tomorrow. A major study of the role of vocational education in Ireland would be most welcome. It would concentrate upon those areas of growth in the economy which have to a large extent been ignored in previous years in order to create an awareness of the educational qualifications which would meet the needs of industry and growth areas in the future.
Adult education has been one of the great successes of the past 20 years. People who would otherwise not have had the opportunity of realising the potential which they unquestionably possessed realised it to a large extent through adult education, which was ably assisted by the vocational education committees. These committees contributed in a large way to the success of many entrepreneurs in Irish business who gained their education at adult level. Adult education was necessary because many people of the last and the previous generations did not get the opportunities which their children and grandchildren get today. When we speak about vocational education we would be remiss not to recall what Sigerson Clifford described as dusting down the blackboard of the years and consider the tremendous achievements which have been made in this sphere of education. It would be unwise not to pay tribute to the vocational education committees which brought education not just to every family, deprived or otherwise, but also to adults who in their youth did not have the opportunity of being educated.
It is grossly unfair to smear VECs by innuendo and to denigrate in such a mean way their role in education and their contribution over the years. It is all very well to criticise others. The easiest thing in the world to do is to say one person would be better than another at selecting people. Politicians are not the only people who can be influenced by canvassing. They are not the only people who can be asked for favours. I greatly regret the insinuation that it is all very well for politicians at national level to make appointments in the public sector but it is not all right for people who give of their time voluntarily to be involved in the selection procedure. It ignores the reality of the democratic process and it insults it. I do not believe the vast majority of the people who have been involved in vocational education committees through the years have been in any way motivated by a sense of greed, meanness, unfairness, a sense of injustice or inequity. Far from it. Most of those people have served voluntarily without pay, without praise and very often without thanks on these and other committees in the local government sector. The system of local government should not be denigrated by innuendo or remark. One must consider the contribution which has been made.
The contribution of vocational education committees has extended far beyond the role envisaged by John Marcus O'Sullivan. It has spread into culture, the arts, sport and every activity of Irish life. It has contributed enormously to the proud tradition of Irish education. It has given people an opportunity they might otherwise never have had. The continuation of a adult education policy is something to which I am totally committed. I am aware of people who, because of personal circumstances, were unable to be educated beyond national school level, men and women aged over 50 who, with the assistance of vocational education committees, were enabled to go on in life because of adult education courses. There are people who have been tremendously proud and thankful for the opportunities which life presented subsequently as a result of such courses.
Night courses have been run in virtually every vocational school in subjects ranging from handiwork to languages. The VECs have mobilised and utilised their resources and tried to make an input in a way other educational spheres never did. Why then should one come into this House and suggest that these committees have acted wrongly in some way? I am no apologist for the vocational education committees but I am trying to give an objective view. The objective view must be that their contribution, their interest and their magnanimity in every area of educational life and outside it has been without question one of the great crusades and adventures in modern Irish education.
If they are to change the selection process it should be done very carefully. The role of public representatives and of those who have been involved for many years should in no way be denigrated. The Minister has a representative on the selection boards and the advice of that member is very often taken above all and any other considerations. If one were to say, as Deputy Deenihan did, that an alternative method of selection by the Local Appointments Commission would be more successful and would get what he described as the best teachers, the suggestion is that the teachers selected by the vocational education committees were not the best teachers. One must follow that argument through and contend, on the basis of Deputy Deenihan's suggestion, that the teachers who were selected should not have been selected at all. Have those teachers failed? I do not believe they have. Rather they have contributed enormously to the high standards of education obtaining in vocational schools and educational colleges throughout the country. When one attacks those involved in the selection procedure the immediate suggestion has to be that the person selected was in some way inter-linked with what, by innuendo, is suggested as having been a less than fair appointment. I do not think the teachers appointed by the vocational education committees have let them down. I do not think they have let Irish education or their pupils down. There is clear evidence all around us to suggest that the contrary is the case.
Deputy Birmingham said he had found or detected a low morale in vocational education today. Who told him that? Nobody ever told me so and I know many teachers and many members of VECs. Indeed, I know many CEOs of VECs in various parts of the country. Nobody ever told me there was low morale obtaining in vocational education. This appears to be a figment of the imagination conjured up with a view to making the sort of innuendos that are regrettable, unfortunate, misinformed and downright ridiculous. Deputy Deenihan said, in support of Deputy Birmingham's conjured up image, that there were redundancies abounding. In an endeavour to conjure up an image of there being something drastically wrong in vocational education the facts are now being misrepresented. The facts are that there was no compulsory redundancy in vocational education in recent years. The only redundancies that took place were voluntary and even they did not happen unless requested by the VECs. It is also fair to say that, in the operation of the voluntary redundancy scheme by the VECs, there was the utmost integrity maintained, the utmost feeling for the schools, the utmost care, concern and sympathy for pupils, and for the position of any teacher seeking voluntary redundancy. There has been no suggestion whatsoever, nor could there be, that because a given teacher had a certain political affiliation, or a knowledge of certain politicians involved in VECs, he or she was allowed voluntary redundancy. Voluntarty redundancy was granted by the VECs when they genuinely felt it would not materially damage the education in any school or college.
If one wants to attack the selection procedures for appointment of teachers to work for a VEC the converse is the case, that there would also be something wrong with a teacher seeking retirement under the voluntary redundancy scheme. It must be realised that local knowledge of circumstances prevailing is of tremendous advantage in selecting a teacher, not merely of the school but of its pupils, their parents and its principal. Local knowledge is of paramount importance. Local knowledge has meant local government, which has often been denigrated and, by innuendo, by the proposer and supporters of this Bill. Local government has been tremdously effective over the years.
At the outset I said that most people want to be fair. I want to be fair as well. I want to be seen to be fair, if possible, although the latter is not as important as the former. One should not be fair merely for populist reasons, not merely to be seen to be fair but rather being fair to everybody, not merely to the teachers, the pupils, the headmasters but also to those men and women who have served on VECs since their inception who have contributed enormously to what began as a seed and has grown into a great oak tree, unshakable in Irish education. Indeed it has not finished growing.
I do not think the provisions of this Bill, or any similar one, should been seen to be the beginning of the end regardless of populism or anything else.
Ar dtús ba mhaith liom do chead a fháil deich nóiméad de mo chuid ama a thabhairt don Teachta Mac Giolla.
An bhfuil sé sin aontaithe? Aontaithe.
Cuirim fáilte roimh an Bhille seo atá curtha os comhair na Dála ag mo chomhleacaí anseo, an Teachta George Birmingham, agus sílim gur tráthúil an rud é go bhfuil Bille a bhaineann le cúrsaí oideachais os comhair na Dála, agus go speisialta cúrsaí gairmoideachais, mar le cúpla bliain anuas, is fíor a rá go bhfuil gach gné de chúrsaí oideachais sa tír seo faoi ionsaí agus faoi bhrú. An ghné a bhfuil baint agam féin léi de chúrsaí oideachais agus a bhfuil an-eolas agam uirthi mar gur chaith mé cúig bliana de mo shaol ag plé léi ná an bunoideachas, agus is cinnte go bhfuil sé sin faoi bhrú i láthair na huaire. Nuair a chuimhníonn tú, uimhir a haon, ar na hathruithe a tharla le cúpla bliain, go bhfuil níos lú múinteoirí ag teagasc anois ná mar a bhí ag teagasc le roinnt blianta.
There are fewer pupils as well.
There may be fewer pupils. Nevertheless one must bear in mind the pupil/teacher ratio that has been changed for the worse by the Minister and the Government.
Gemma was a great hand at the pupil/teacher ratio herself.
Indeed, had we not tempered the Minister's designs the results would have been even worse. Tá ocht gcéad níos lú ag teagasc i láthair na huaire anois ná mar a bhí anuraidh, agus nuair a chuimhníonn tú ar na múinteoirí go léir, beagnach, a tháinig amach as na coláistí oiliúna anuraidh agus an bhliain roimhe sin, gur beag díobh ar éirigh leo post a fháil sa tír agus go bhfuil go leor acu i Sasana agus i dtíortha eile i láthair na huaire ag teagasc, tá cúrsaí oideachais, mar a dúirt mé, faoi bhrú. Bhí mé i mo dháilcheantar an tseachtain seo caite agus tháinig tuismitheoir chugam, máthair, agus tá iníon léi mar bhunmhúinteoir. Tá sí cáilithe le bliain ach níl sí in ann post lánaimseartha a fháil sa tír seo agus dúirt sí liom gur mhaith léi rud amháin a iarraidh orm — tá an Teachta Fitzgerald ansin agus tá mé cinnte go dtuigeann sé dioplómaí agus mar sin a bhíonn le fáil ag na bunmhúinteoirí — agus dúirt sí liom: "An bhféadfá é a réiteach go mbeadh mo iníon in ann scrúdú an dioplóma a dhéanamh, mar go bhfuil post lánaimseartha ag fanacht léi i Sasana?"
Ar ais go dtí an Bille anois, a Theachta.
The Deputy should come back to the subject in hand.
By way of introduction I wanted to illustrate that education, both primary and post-primary, is under attack and severe strain at the moment. Ach mar a dúirt tú, a Cheann Comhairle, baineann an Bille seo go príomha leis an earnáil ghairmoideachais. Rinne gach duine a labhair go fóill tagairt do John Marcus O'Sullivan agus an Rialtas a bhí ann ag an uair sin agus chomh fadradharcach agus a bhí siad, agus go raibh sé beagnach réabhlóideach ag an uair sin gur chuir siad an córas seo ar bun. Mar dhuine as Dún na nGall caithfidh mé a rá go bhfuil an-chuid oibre déanta ag an coiste gairmoideachais agus ag an córas gairmoideachais do oideachas agus do scolaíocht i mo chontae féin chomh maith le ar fud na tíre. Nuair a cuireadh ar bun é i ní raibh oideachas iarbhunscoile le fáil ach go hannamh. Bhí sé le fáil sna coláistí deoise. Bhí sé le fáil chomh maith ag na bráithre agus ag na mná rialta.
I mo chontae féin is beag scoil iarbhunoideachais a bhí sa chontae. Ní shílim go raibh mórán de na bráithre i dTír Chonaill. Níl a fhios agam cén fáth nár éirigh leo dul chomh fada leis sin. Bhí scoil amháin i mBéal Átha Seanaidh agus ceann i Leitir Ceanainn. Mar an gcéanna leis na mná rialta. Agus nuair a cuireadh an coiste gairmoideachais ar bun agus an córas gairmoideachais cuireadh scoileanna ar fáil ar fud na tíre, agus cuireadh oideachas iarbhunscoile ar fáil dona lán daltaí nach mbeadh teacht acu air ach amháin go raibh an córas sin ann.
Anois is é ceartlár an Bhille seo ná córas cheapadh múinteoirí san earnáil ghairmoideachais. Sin go díreach an t-aon rud atáimid ag iarraidh a athrú. Dúirt an Teachta O'Donoghue nuair a bhí sé ag caint romham nach bhfaca sé aon rud mícheart leis an chóras mar atá anois. Ach ba mhaith liom a chur in iúl dó, bliain i ndiaidh bliana nuair a bhí a gcruinniú bliantúil ag Ceardchumann Múinteoirí Éireann, an TUI, na daoine atá ag plé leis na múinteoirí, an chuid is mó de na múinteoirí ata sa chóras gairmoideachais, go bhfuil sé mar pholasaí acusan go ndéanfaí athrú ar an chóras. Níl siad sásta leis, agus sílim go gcaithfimid aird a thabhairt ar an mhéid atá le rá acusan. I láthair na huaire tá bord ceapachán ann atá tógtha amach as ballraíocht an chórais ghairmoideachais. Nílimid ag iarraidh aon rud iontach a dhéanamh. Is é an t-aon rud atáimid ag iarraidh a dhéanamh nó go gceapfaí na múinteoirí gairmoideachais sa tslí chéanna ina gceaptar daoine cosúil le dochtúirí nó daoine atá ag obair sa bhord sláinte nó banaltraí nó ailtirí nó fiú amháin daoine a bhíonn ag obair sa chomhairle chontae.
Is é an rud atáimid ag moladh sa Bhille ná go dtabharfaí an chumhacht seo do Choimisiún na gCeapachán Áitiúil. Anois, chomh fada agus is eol dom, tá an coimisiún seo ar bun ó 1926. Sílim gur cuireadh Coimisiún na Státseirbhíse ar bun i 1924, ach ó 1926 na ceapacháin uilig a dhéantar ag an leibhéal áitiúil roimh an rialtas áitiúil agus comhairlí contae tá sé déanta ag Coimisiún na gCeapachán Áitiúil. Ó shin i leith le seasca bliain atá siad ann agus i rith an ama sin tá anmhuinín ag pobal na hÉireann iontu. Feicimid go dtugann siad cothrom na Féinne do gach duine agus go gcuireann siad a gcuid agallamh ar dhaoine agus go ndéanann siad an ceapachán mar a mheasann siad bunaithe ar na cáilíochtaí a bhíonn ag na hiarrthóirí a chuireann isteach air. Ní shílim go bhfuil aon duine ar an taobh seo den Teach nach n-aontódh go bhfuil an-chuid oibre, go bhfuil obair mhaith déanta ag Coimisiún na gCeapachán Áitiúil. Agus sin go díreach an rud atá muidne ag iarraidh sa Bhille seo, go dtabharfaí cumhacht dóibh nó go gcuirfí freagracht orthu na gairm-mhúinteoirí a cheapadh mar an gcéanna.
Tá sé ar eolas againn uilig go mbíonn amhras go minic, chomh fada agus a théann ceapacháin mhúinteoirí sa chóras gairmoideachais, agus tá a fhios againn uilig sa saol poiblí nuair a bhíonn folúntas le líonadh go dtagann daoine chugainn agus iad ag iarraidh orainn ár ndícheall a dhéanamh dóibh. Ní shílim go bhfuil sé sin, fiú amháin, sásúil, ó thaobh na ndaoine a bhíonn ar na coistí gairmoideachais. Bíonn brú orainn, agus is cinnte nach bhfuil sé maith do na múinteoirí a chaitheann dul tríd an chóras seo. Cuir i gcás an córas lenar bhain mé féin, an bhunscolaíocht. Ceaptar múinteoirí ansin, agus sílim go bhfuil an bord níos leithne. Bíonn an príomhoide ann agus bíonn ionadaí ag an easpag air agus bíonn ionadaí ag na tuismitheoirí air, agus b'fhéidir go mbíonn comhairle le fáil ag an chigire nó mar sin, mar a thuigeann an Teachta Fitzgerald. Nó cuir i gcás, sna scoileanna cuimsitheacha nó sna scoileanna pobail, bíonn ionadaí ag an easpag, bíonn ionadaí ag an chóras gairmoideachais, bíonn an t-ardmháistir, bíonn ionadaí ag an Roinn, agus tá an bord níos leithne.
Chomh fada agus a bhaineann sé leis an chóras gairmoideachais, tá sé anchúng. De ghnáth bíonn ceathrar ionadaithe ón choiste gairmoideachais, agus b'fhéidir cigire de chuid na Roinne. Sin an dearcadh atá ag an cheardchumann agus sin an dearcadh atá le fáil i measc na múinteoirí féin a bhfuil teagmháil agam leo. Sílim go bhfuil sé in am é a athrú agus na cumhachtaí, mar a dúirt mé, a thabhairt do Bhord na gCeapachán Áitiúil, agus sin go díreach an rud atá molta sa Bhille seo.
I welcome the introduction of the Bill by Deputy Birmingham. It certainly does not dispute the major contribution made by the vocational education sector to education here since it was initiated in 1931 but seeks to address the method of appointment of teachers and their promotion to posts of responsibility. In any sphere of life man has his worth. In the teaching profession more than most, this is measured by the esteem of his colleagues, the trust of his pupils and the personal integrity of the teacher himself in the performance of his duties.
His or her duties.
Yes, it is almost evenly divided. When I was teaching more than half of my staff were female and they were a very efficient staff. Rarely does the dedicated teacher measure his or her worth in terms of financial reward. They give freely of themsleves to the many demands placed on them. Personal relationships built on trust and the element of fair play are all important in the smooth running of a school. Where this trust and fair play are missing the whole structure breaks down and the school disintegrates.
There is, perhaps, nothing more destructive of personal relationships than suspicion. It poisons the goodwill on which our school system is built. We, more than most, have seen the catastrophic effects of suspicion in a community. School is also a community where personal contact is ever present, and at a premium, and where relationships between its members are paramount. Anything that infringes on those relationships or causes suspicion between members creates an insidious growth which will eventually destroy the school body. In my own experience of dealing with vocational schools and vocational teachers — and Donegal has the greatest concentration of VEC schools in relation to population of any county — there is no greater point of contention and suspicion than the present method of appointment. Whether political influence is involved in appointments and promotions is not the point. It is the fact that people feel that politicians have an influence that creates resentment and suspicion. I know of many admirable teachers dedicated to their profession, people of complete integrity, who would no longer demean themselves with the ritual parading before an interview board to be asked often meaningless questions unrelated to their professional responsibilities in an atmosphere where they feel that ability, experience and dedication matter very little, certainly perhaps less than their political affiliations.
Appointments made under the present system are suspect, and all the more so because of the surplus of teachers available. What worried parent can be blamed for using his influence within the political system if there is the slightest chance that it may obtain a valuable appointment for a son or daughter? What politician can be blamed if he repays an outstanding political debt by a word in the right ear? It is this type of suspicion, whether real or imagined, that permeates the system. It demeans a worthy profession, places a question mark over the integrity of politicians and gnaws at the self esteem of the appointee. Above all it permeates the atmosphere of the staff room, creating resentment, suspicion and frustration. Inevitably this frustration transfers itself to other areas of school life so that a cynicism prevails. This is not an atmosphere conducive to the education of our children, a consideration that should be of paramount importance. Doctors, dentists, lawyers, accountants and other professionals have their work measured by the contribution they make to their profession and this worth will be reflected in their appointment to senior posts by proper professional bodies. Who would accept that a senior hospital appointment be made by the local candlestick maker, with all due respects to him, simply because he has a political affiliation? Is the education of our children so unimportant that appointments of their teachers and guardians be placed in the hands of people who, no matter how admirable in other respects, lack the insights necessary for proper judgment? In my opinion there are only two acceptable methods of appointment, the one based on seniority and experience, the other on merit. Basing appointments on seniority is a question of filling dead men's shoes, but it has merit in so far as it is acceptable to the staff, eliminates the suspicion of political interference and will not poison the atmosphere. It would also eliminate the costly exercise of appointments boards and the disruption to the school where as many as half the staff can often be attending interviews under the present system. The alternative to seniority is appointment on merit. In most spheres of life, especially commecial, this is the more acceptable. But who is to judge the merits of a professional teacher? Obviously it must be a body with a clear insight into the profession and what constitutes a teacher; it must be a body that is independent and professional in its own right, a body with the requisite expertise. I can think of nobody more suited to the task than the public appointments board. The present method of appointment is archaic, unprofessional and demeaning to a body that has contributed so much to a first class educated youth. Not alone should appointments be fair, they should be seen to be fair. This Bill is designed to remove any suspicion in the appointments of vocational teachers and to have their appointments treated the same way as other professions, namely, the medical, accountancy, dental and so on. For that reason I commend this Bill to the House.
Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis an Teachta McGinley don am a thug sé dom.
I have had considerable problems in making up my mind whether to support or oppose this Bill because it is taking from the VECs the power to establish their own selection boards for appointments and promotions within the system. The VEC system has been of outstanding benefit to the country since the 1930 Act was passed. Its most outstanding feature is that it is not selective. All are welcome and all are catered for, unlike the private secondary school system which selects its pupils and rejects the others as if all are not entitled to equality of education. The VEC system is totally non selective. It takes the best and the weakest. It has devised systems to cater for the teaching of all types of pupils and has done an excellent job. The 1930 Act has proved time after time that it is capable of dealing with the most dramatic changes in our society. It allows for progressive changes in curriculum and teaching methods in line with changing circumstances. In particular the VEC system is unique because of its democratic nature, and it is the only democratic and secular education system we have.
One would therefore expect it to be nurtured by the State and given every assistance because of the difficulties it always has in dealing with pupils of differing capacities and different levels of advantage and so on. In fact it is now under increasing attack, being more and more deprived of funds and competing more and more with better funded comprehensive and community schools. Last year it had forced on it the totally unjustified pupil teacher ratio increase up to 20:1 on pressure from the private secondary fee paying area which felt that the VEC had an advantage over them when in fact it was under a grave disadvantage.
The VEC system is under attack. Therefore, my instant reaction is to defend this system to the last from any attempt to remove from some of the VEC committees powers they already have. However, the teacher selection system is also under greater scrutiny than ever especially by teachers. This is largely because of the large number of unemployed teachers, temporary and part time teachers, and the demand for every available post. Teachers must be satisfied that they are selected purely on merit. They must be satisfied that they are not subjected to or even appear to be subjected to, religious or political bias. I had occasion to question the previous Minister for Education a couple of years back on the Catholic Primary School Managers Association guidelines for the selection of teachers in which they said that only practising Roman Catholics would be considered for new appointments as teachers. The Minister defended that. Even though the teachers were paid by the State it was a matter for the Catholic primary school managers to decide on the selection of teachers. I thought that was totally wrong at the time.
My experience of the VEC system started in 1979 when I was elected to the City of Dublin VEC. I was on the school board of a couple of schools and I was also on the management board of Bolton Street College of Technology. I was a member of many selection committees which selected teachers, held interviews and so on. There was always pressure on members of the VEC to be members of the selection committees because there were so many ongoing interviews regarding promotions and appointments and many lasted a day or two days. Although it was very difficult for me to get time off I never let them down. I was a member of these boards from 1979 until 1985.
In 1985 local elections were held and a new VEC was elected. There was then a different political majority — Fianna Fáil had a majority on the committee. Since 1985 I have not been invited to attend one selection board. That is a tribute to all the other members of the VEC. They are all able to attend the selection boards and there has never been any difficulty in making up membership of these boards as there had been with the previous VEC. At that time I was often under great pressure to attend but since 1985 I have never been invited to, advised of or told about one selection board. I have no complaints about the appointments in the area but I am merely making the point that from 1985 to date I have not been put on any selection board.
It appears that when people are being interviewed they are aware of the political connotations of the board. No matter how honest and straightforward that board is they would have some qualms as to whether they said something the board would remember as not being in accordance with their political beliefs; they might have said something outside, in a letter to the papers or something of that nature. When people go before interview boards they remember things like that and like to make sure they have a clean sheet. The danger in regard to selections arises with political or religious bias. The Local Appointments Commission have an enviable record in regard to fairness of appointments and for the benefit of teachers and pupils all teacher appointments should come under the Local Appointments Commission.
As I have said already, I had occasion to question the former Minister for Education, Deputy Hussey, in regard to religious discrimination. Fine Gael, in this Bill, are tackling the question of possible political discrimination but they are running away from the blatant religious discrimination which teachers regularly suffer and which has made the headlines of newspapers and so on for a number of years. I would hope they will accept an amendment to this Bill allowing the Local Appointments Commission to handle all teacher appointments. I do not see why the VEC should be selected while the primary sector is allowed its own discriminatory system of selection. I will be proposing an amendment, if the Bill goes to Committee Stage, that all teacher appointments be handled by the Local Appointments Commission.
Before I address myself to this issue I want to respond to Deputy Mac Giolla who is a colleague of mine on the City of Dublin VEC. I am a little disappointed with one or two points he made. In saying that, I want to preface my remarks by personally commending him for the very constructive role he has played on the City of Dublin VEC.
Tá an-díomá orm mar gheall ar an méid atá á rá ag an Teachta McGinley ag iarraidh a chur in iúl don Dáil seo nach bhfuil an córas ceart daonlathach ar siúl mar gheall ar mhúinteoirí atá á nglacadh ag na coistí gairmoideachais ar fud na tíre. Tá mé cinnte, ar ucht stair acadúil na múinteoirí atá ag obair ar son an chórais ghairmoideachais i láthair na huaire, go bhfuil i measc na gcúrsaí gairmoideachais sin, foireann mhúinteoirí gairmoideachais a léirigh go deimhneach go bhfuil siad in ann bheith freagrach do na deacrachtaí agus na hathruithe atá oiriúnach don lá atá inniu ann. Tá díomá orm freisin go bhfuil daoine ann nach dtuigeann na himpleachtaí atá i gceist. Impím ar an Teachta Birmingham scagadh níos mó a dhéanamh ar na himpleachtaí. Tá mé sásta nach bhfuil scrúdú deimhneach déanta aige ar a bhfuil i gceist. Maidir leis an méid atá le rá ag an Teachta Tomás Mac Giolla, ní raibh a fhios agam nuair a bhí mé mar Chathaoirleach ar Choiste Gairmoideachais Bhaile Átha Cliath nach raibh cuireadh tugtha dó a bheith páirteach ar na boird agallaimh. Tá díomá orm gur tharla sé sin. Caithfidh mé a chur in iúl dó go deimhneach nach raibh aon impleacht mar gheall ar pháirtí polaitíochta i gceist ansin. Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil sé tugtha do chúrsaí gairmoideachais, go bhfuil grá agus tuiscint aige maidir leis an tábhacht atá leis an gcóras sin i mBaile Átha Cliath agus ar fud na tíre.
Cén fáth nár ligeadh isteach ar an mbord é, más rud é go bhfuil an méid sin grá aige?
Rinneadh dearmad nach raibh cuireadh curtha isteach chuig an an Teachta sin, Teachta a bhfuil meas mór agam air, agus caithfidh mé é sin a chur in iúl anseo anocht, agus an tuiscint atá aige i gcúrsaí gairmoideachais, an fonn atá air agus an dúthracht a léiríonn sé i gcónaí do chúrsaí gairmoideachais, agus tá díomá orm go bhfuil le rá aige anocht nach raibh seans aige a bheith páirteach ar na boird agallaimh a bhí ar siúl. Caithfidh an Teachta Mac Giolla agus mé féin labhairt faoin rud sin. Níl mé i mo chathaoirleach anois ach tá mé cinnte go mbeidh réiteach le fáil. Fáiltím roimh an Teachta Mac Giolla a bheith páirteach ar na boird agallaimh sin as seo amach, agus caithfidh mé é sin a chur in iúl go deimhneach anseo anocht.
Ní ráibh an dath ceart polaitiúil aige.
Deputy Mac Giolla was not invited to participate on any of the interview boards and he wanted to make that position clear. I am disappointed with that. I did not, even during my term as chairman of the City of Dublin VEC, attempt to exclude Deputy Mac Giolla. I have to say further, and I want to make this quite clear, that at no stage did I as chairman attempt to impose my will as to who should or should not be on the interview boards. If it had come to my attention that Deputy Mac Giolla should be on the interview boards I would have readily and positively responded to that. I would have called for Deputy Mac Giolla if I had known what he has since put on the record of the House. When he and I met on one occasion outside Cathal Brugha Street to discuss structures and personnel in the VEC I was satisfied we had reached an agreement. However, if Deputy Mac Giolla had assumed that we should have had further discussions, then I would admit that I was remiss in not pursuing those discussions but I want to make it unequivocally clear now that this was not my understanding. If it should have been my understanding, then I have no difficulty in apologising to Deputy Mac Giolla for that. I hope he will agree that I have never tried to stifle the contributions he wanted to make at committee meetings, If he thinks otherwise he can stand up and contradict me. I was always interested and willing to listen and at committee meetings I showed that I wanted his input to policy. I hope he agrees with me on that point.
During the course of Second Stage, Deputy Birmingham adverted to the long-standing irritant which he stated as the need to, and I quote from the Official Report, Volume 387, column 979:
...assert and vindicate the professional status of the vocational school teacher.
As I interpret it, this is the recurring theme of Deputy Birmingham's contribution. He seeks to assert that while the democratic process is at work in the appointment of teachers, it is not the ideal or desirable process to bring the best calibre of teaching pool within the vocational education sector. I believe this is the fundamental point Deputy Birmingham is attempting to make.
I immediately take issue with this assertion on the calibre of vocational education teachers because the implication is that the calibre and quality of teachers providing a vitally important and increasingly innovative service at present, as I am sure in the past, is not what it should be. That is the clear implication of his remarks, but if I am wrong let him prove that to me. I believe such an implication does a disservice to the many vocational teachers, not alone in Dublin with whom I am most familiar, but around the country. They have pioneered new courses, they have been innovative and they have faced up to enormous challenges in the delivery of the education service. Perhaps Deputy Birmingham did not intend his remarks to be taken in this way, and I have to accept that is a possibility, but certainly the implication is clearly there and I know that it would be deeply hurtful to the highly professional people involved if it was deliberately intended. However, I am prepared to accept tonight that it was an inadvertent implication on the part of Deputy Birmingham.
There are a number of recurring themes elaborated on by Deputy Birmingham. In fairness, certain aspirations are quite laudable, in my experience as a former chairman and now a member of a vocational education committee but, at the same time, other views he has elaborated on have quite serious implications. I can cope with that. The Minister readily recognises that education is a constantly evolving service in terms of its structures and procedures. It has to be so primarily because it is constantly addressing and facing up to new challenges. There are challenges in terms of social skills, personal development, the quality and type of education, the intellectual development of the student and indeed the demands of the marketplace whether for second or third level students. While I believe it is not only right but essential that we should have ongoing discussions on the need to adapt, change, update, review and revise the way in which we do things in education — my colleague, the Minister, subscribed to this when in Opposition and I know she subscribes to it today — I would caution that we do not throw out the baby with the bath water.
I have already conceded that Deputy Birmingham raised a number of points worthy of the Minister's consideration. However, I have to state I was disappointed that he did not address himself in detail to the significant contribution that vocational education has made from 1930 to the present day in bringing technical, technological, academic and community education to the masses. This cannot be denied or refuted.
If the selection process for teaching personnel is as flawed as some perceive it to be — I have to concede that the Deputy was quite guarded; he used the word "perception"— I am baffled as to how the teachers involved over the years, and particularly in recent years, have come to the fore in the innovation and pioneering of new courses or the revision of courses and their voluntary input into the review of the curricula and syllabi which is an irrefutable fact. I am speaking from immediate personal experience when I say that the curriculum and development unit established by the City of Dublin VEC and sanctioned by the Department is noteworthy. Many new and imaginative courses addressed at students who have not a very strong academic bias resulted from this. The career foundation programme is one example of their work and it is still in operation in a number of city vocational schools.
I will admit that the take-up has not been as spectacular as I would have hoped because I believe the philosophy behind it is commendable. It sought to address a very serious academic, socioeconomic problem. Despite what I might call the disappointing take-up, it has come forward with some very imaginative programmes. Let me add that at a presentation of certificates in one of our schools in Dublin city next Friday the daughter of a very famous national media personality will be presented with her certificate. In fact, the person making the presentation, is nationally renowned and is the mother of the girl. I think that speaks for itself.
We have come forward with very imaginative programmes. There are others, such as the humanities programme. In Dublin where I got my basic experience in vocational education we had the development of the humanities programme. We had the accelerated development of the vocational preparation and training programmes to which both Deputy Birmingham and the Minister referred. These programmes sought to address a student population that did not have a very strong academic bias. These were initiatives taken by teachers, post of responsibility holders and principals with the support of committees, to try to deal with a very serious social problem in the educational arena. We should commend them wholeheartedly for doing that. We should pay tribute to them and record in this House the kind of expertise that was brought to bear in the formulation of those courses. To do otherwise would be to do a disservice to the VEC system.
Deputies on the other side of the House adverted to the fact that the VEC schools very often have to provide an educational service to those who are not as academically strong as others and whose social and economic backgrounds are sometimes disadvantaged. This is very often but not always true. Where it is true the commitment of the teaching staffs to address these problems by providing an interesting, educationally useful and directionally challenging and vocationally desirable set of programmes should be lauded.
The Bill before the House aspires to objective selectivity as the most laudable procedure for the appointment of VEC teachers, yet the point is being made that there can be no objection in principle to putting teachers on the same footing as everyone else. I subscribe fully to that very laudable aspiration if it was as simple and clearcut as has been stated. I have to put it to the House that when we talk about objective selectivity in terms of appointing VEC teachers to schools where in many instances there are very special and localised needs, one can arrive at many interpretations as to what objective selectivity is in terms of our selection procedure. It is a very complex issue and we should not over-simplify it. Deputy Birmingham said at column 983 of the Official Report of last Tuesday:
Because the selection boards who make the appointments are not professionally qualified, it is very difficult for appointments to be made purely on the basis of merit.
That is not entirely accurate. There are many people involved with committees around the country who are qualified. In Dublin there are very highly qualified members of the committee. The Deputy followed on by saying:
There will, of course, be advisers present, but they are present as advisers and the actual decision-making may be made entirely by people other than those who are professionally qualified.
This is inaccurate also. My understanding is that an inspector has to be present as a voting member at all such interview boards not alone for teachers but for very many interview boards, whether at second or third level, and for highly technical and technological staff in the administrative area. There seems to be a rather dismissive attitude in the Bill to the role of the CEOs and the education officers who are advisers to interview boards. Such an attitude does a disservice to these officials. I have found that not only is the advice of these specialists invaluable in terms of the needs of a particular school but that the advice of the principal is also invaluable and he is always present at such an interview board.
You may shake your head. I am speaking as a former chairman of a committee and in my time——
I would prefer if the Deputy would address his remarks through the Chair rather than across the floor of the House.
In my time as chairman of the VEC, when appointments were being made, principals were always present except where it was the appointment of a principal. The principal's views were taken very seriously into account. The Minister in her contribution referred at column 966 of the same debate to mutual suitability. In a way the Minister understated that aspect. This is at the kernel of what vocational education is all about. It is invariably vitally important in assessing a candidate's suitability for the job to have this concept in mind. This concept, which has been in operation since well before my time, involves supplying the candidate with information regarding the post. In order to select a candidate in this context he must have detailed knowledge of the post, his duties and the environment in which they will be performed. As the Minister said, the further removed a selection process is from the operation of the system, the less likely one is to get the best candidate.
As a person who went through the academic process, I put a high store on qualifications. Generally speaking we put a high store on qualifications. If somebody has a MA or a PhD as opposed to a BA, we tend to assume that this is the right candidate for the job. When we are dealing with vocational education, when we are dealing with very localised problems that have to be addressed by professional people, it is not good enough to say that Mr. MA or Mr. PhD is the automatic choice for the job.
Or Mrs., or Ms.
I apologise, Minister, I do not intend to be sexist. When we deal with that issue the totality of the contribution by the candidate has to be taken into account. I take this opportunity to invite Deputy Mac Giolla to participate on those interview boards. This can be arranged at the next committee meeting. I am inviting the Deputy because I believe he will share fully with me the kind of all round concern there is in relation to the suitability of a candidate. This applies equally to doctors and to other professions. Doctors with extremely high academic qualifications may not be the suitable people to administer to the health of the community.
I will now deal briefly with democracy in education. I will not go into this in detail, but I want to refer to the previous Government's Programme for Action in Education 1984-1987. It was their view that a full partnership with all the interests involved would promote democracy in education. The action programme called attention to the importance of the ideal of participative citizenship in education so that young people would understand clearly, and identify with, the workings of democracy.
I am sorry——
The connection between education and democracy was further highlighted in the previous Government's National Youth Policy. This policy declared that it was "inspired by a Democratic Philosophy and a Vision centred upon the need for the participation of each person in Society".
The Deputy can report progress if he desires.
Debate adjourned.