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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Mar 1989

Vol. 387 No. 8

Private Members' Business. - Local Authorities (Officers and Employees) (Amendment) Bill, 1989: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Deputy Liam Fitzgerald is in possession, but I do not observe the Deputy.

Deputy Fitzgerald agreed to share his time with me. The Bill before the House, if passed into law, will have the effect of removing from vocational education committees the power of appointing teachers and will vest their powers in the Commissioners of Local Appointments. Having digested Deputy Birmingham's contribution, I must congratulate him on his silken barristerial skills which managed, I believe, to cover up, or almost cover up, the real reason that this Bill was introduced. If things were the same as they were prior to 1985 we would not have this Bill before the House.

In the course of his speech, Deputy Birmingham managed to insult and cast aspersions on the integrity of chief executive officers, of Department officials and councillors, Fine Gael councillors included. He has made the innuendo that they were not fit people to select teachers who, over the years, have played a vital part in educating our students in the vocational sector. Students from the vocational sector now hold positions of the highest rank in all disciplines in our society. The Deputy has cast a slight on the teachers who were selected by county councillors of all hues and by other persons who were not county councillors on the selection committees. These teachers were efficient and brought the students to the high standards they attained. I think Deputy Birmingham should apologise for insulting these excellent teachers, the formers of students' characters. I cannot understand why he should have found it necessary to insult these people.

In the few minutes available to me I would like to refer to what I believe is behind the Bill — the philosophy, in Fine Gael especially, of centralisation. Fine Gael have a philosophy to centralise everything in Dublin. We have seen this happening in all walks of Government and in the period of the last Coalition it was evident that all steps that had been taken by the previous administration to decentralise Government Departments were rolled backwards. Thankfully, the plans that were in force for those four and a half years of Coalition Government have been scrapped and we now see the process of decentralisation once again.

I believe it is important that people who appoint teachers should select persons with an affinity for the pupils and the area in which they teach. The danger of centralised appointments is that the interviewers will not have the necessary local knowledge to match the candidates with the particular job on offer. This issue raises questions about democracy and education. I am glad to note that the Minister in her contribution last Tuesday night referred in detail to this very important issue within education.

Deputy Birmingham was concerned with a lack of public accountability but the Minister rightly pointed out that the democratic process is very much at work at a local level within vocational education committees. Vocational education committees are subcommittees of the local authorities and are made up of elected members, elected by and accountable to the public. The nominees to the committees are local authority nominees. I do not know of any more ideal way to exercise local democracy. The connection between education and democracy was emphasised in the previous Government's Programme for Action in Education 1984-1987 as one of its basic underlying principles. The action programme called for delegation of responsibility and authority, and I quote “with a view to achieving a full partnership between all the interests involved”.

In conclusion, the posts in question are of crucial importance for the educational careers of young people and it is appropriate that the Dáil should examine the existing procedures for making appointments. However, I believe that the road promulgated in this Bill is not the correct one.

I am glad to support the Bill. I congratulate Deputy Birmingham for bringing the issue before the House and I congratulate the Minister for her willingness to look at the issue and take on board, if not the detail, the general thrust of the Bill.

I have a background in the education system both as a pupil and as a teacher. I also spent six years as a member of the City of Dublin VEC, the largest vocational education committee in the country. The Dublin VEC have an over-whelming number of constituent schools, colleges and various background committees which examined areas such as curricular activity, sport etc. and did it extremely well. I enjoyed those six years immensely and I gained a great respect for the people involved: for the democratic nature of the vocational education system and for the commitment of the people appointed to serve on a voluntary basis on the committees. Becusue of the enormous size of the City of Dublin system and also because those were times when school numbers and staffing levels were expanding in the steady fashion we had come to expect — I am referring to the years 1979-85 but then the local elections resulted in a clean sweep and left Fine Gael with one representative on the Dublin Vocational Education Committee — I was called on more times than I could be present to sit on interview boards for college appointments from cleaning staff right through to senior lecturing positions. I may not remember very precisely but I think the board comprised of two or three members of the vocational education committee, an inspector — or a slightly different composition depending on the level — and the school principal acting as an adviser. Things were allowed change very rapidly in the interim without adequate comment. I enjoyed that work. It was interesting to get involved and experience interviews from the other side. I am sure if I had to face an interview board, depending on my fortunes in this House and with the public, what I learned would have been very valuable to me. I learned a great deal and I can see why I did not do as well as I might have liked earlier in my career. It was really an amateur activity deciding on very important issues, deciding on the staff at all the various levels in schools and colleges.

In Dublin every July and August there were interview boards running constantly to deal with the secretarial panels, teaching panels, temporary panels and lectureships that had to be set up. It was a mammoth task. To do it, were members of the board who were there on a voluntary basis, many with other occupations and very many of whom could not be available regularly or only occasionally. It was extremely difficult to organise in that way, trying to find spare time from persons with other commitments. What tended to happen was that the people who made up the board tended to be the retired members who could make themselves available regularly. That was very nice for them but it was not necessarily the best profile for an interview board. The persons involved became quite experienced but these were publicly known figures and as it became obvious that there was almost always a number of people who were on every board, there was always the danger that people would try to influence the decision. To the eternal credit of all the interview boards in which I dealt, the decisions were made on a very valid basis. However the structure was ad hoc, and non-professional with many inadequacies and problems.

At the very minimum, if one was not talking about an ideal situation where one had trained people involved on a professional basis, we were giving an enormous administrative task to the administrative officers in the committee who were struggling to manage and develop a very large and important educational system. They had to take great quantities of time off from their important developmental work in trying to find out if X member of the committee could be available for half a day here or a week there. It was a very unprofessional system. The system was not just unprofessional but it took up immense quantities of time of very senior administrative personnel in the vocational education committees who should have been looking at the very many other issues which needed to be considered by the system.

I am glad that this matter was raised here in the House, that Deputy Birmingham has brought it to the House and that the Minister has responded with openness and a willingness to at least look at the problem. I gather that Deputy Birmingham will be making his views known in relation to the Minister's approach when he replies later this evening.

Going on my experience in the City of Dublin there is a great need for the energy of the administrators of the City of Dublin VEC to look at the great structure, the many fine colleges and schools they have, and plan for their future. In the last ten or 12 years we have had the emergence and development of the Dublin Institute of Technology, an organisation with great potential and making a great contribution. There are some wonderful people in it, many of whom have carved out names for themselves in education and in research here and abroad, but they are tied by the most unsuitable historic structure in that this institute operates essentially still as if they were second level schools with a principal system and a totally unsuitable system of organisation for the way in which the colleges developed, where they have become third level institutes and colleges. They need to have their own resources freed and they need an input from the Minister. At the announcement of the university status for the NIHE the Minister referred to the Dublin Institute of Technology and other colleges. This is extremely important. They are a resource that has not been fully exploited and developed and they could benefit from reorganisation whether within or outside the City of Dublin VEC structure. Because of the weight of history making it is extremely difficult for them to free their structures, an input from outside could be immensely valuable in sending them on the road into the 21st century in a better position to realise their full potential. I am referring to the various colleges that I know so well each of which has its own definitive niche in education in Dublin in particular — Bolton Street and Kevin Street Colleges of Technology, the College of Catering, Rathmines Senior College and the College of Marketing and Design. Each of these institutes has developed its own profile and they are keen to emerge as a recognisable joint institute in even more clear form than they have achieved to date. At the moment they are tied by resource problems and by the fact that so much of the time of those who should be planning these issues is caught up in matters such as the Bill refers to.

These colleges are particularly important because the VECs in Dublin, particularly in the third level area, are the colleges that have proved to be most open to working class children. Because of the links they have with the second level schools it seems to be easier for working class children with perhaps less of a background of involvement in third level education to move from a second level vocational school into a third level school, if only because at second level prize giving days and special days that occur throughout the year in post primary schools members of the City of Dublin VEC attend and invite them to consider third level education, and former past pupils who had succeeded would appear in their year book and so on. There is that important link between the working class areas of Dublin, where the vocational education second level schools tend to be largely placed, and the third level vocational system. That is something very precious and important. No matter what development takes place in the Dublin Institute of Technology and in the City of Dublin VEC, that it an important link that should not be broken to achieve some gain in terms of status of a less substantial kind.

We have an enormous problem in relation to the participation of working class children. I suppose working class is the term — it is an odd term — but at least it is the one which everybody comprehends so I will continue to use it, even though it is somewhat imprecise. Children from very large sections of my constituency turn up very infrequently at third level colleges. This can be broken down to some degree by participation in the vocational schools in Dublin. I can speak particularly for the schools in my own constituency — Scoil Íde and Coláis-te Eoin in Finglas West and Whitehall House and Plunkett School in the Santry-Whitehall area. The two schools in the Finglas area in particular form a bridge for the pupils from my area to find their way into third level, although not in adequate numbers or in numbers we would like. That is a very important link and a very important bridge which should be preserved and maintained regardless of what develops.

As I am talking about the second level schools and what has happened to them in recent years, I would draw the Minister's attention to the reduction in the number of ESF grants available, which is a direct consequence of cutbacks in funding from her Department. In the Finglas West area alone there was an enormous reduction in the number of children enrolling for comparable courses as a result of the reduction in funds. This has had a very serious impact on an area such as Finglas West because we are talking about very young children with very little prospect of employment. If they are not in school, where are they, and what are they doing?

The gross unavailability of ESF grants in recent years certainly had a major impact on the length of time that these children remained in school. It is a programme I would not wish to see cut back any further but would wish to see developed and made available in second level.

With those few remarks I commend the Bill to the House and support the case made for a change in the way interview boards and the recruitment system works, so that we could see an improvement in the quality of service. The Bill refers to the use of a system similar to that of the Civil Service Commission. Everybody would agree that that commission served the country well since its establishment and that we have rarely, if ever, had a complaint about either the impartiality of that system or about the quality of the candidates selected.

I commend this Bill to the Minister for her most serious consideration. I thank Deputy Birmingham for bringing this issue before us.

I find it very difficult to go along with this Bill which was introduced by Deputy Birmingham, Opposition spokesman on Education. While there may be some good points in it, he is attacking the most democratic area of education in this country. I suppose as Opposition spokesperson on Education he has to justify his existence by bringing in this Bill. I do not agree with many of the suggestions he made when speaking on the Bill, but this gives us an opportunity to debate the educational structures of the VECs, the RTCs and, indeed, education generally. Our educational system which has been nurtured and cared for over many years by different Governments and different Ministers is regarded as of the highest quality and on a par, and even better than many of our EC partners, and further afield.

Last year a very good friend of mine emigrated to Australia. In many ways Australia has been described as the land of milk and honey. Recently we had a letter from this person from which I will now quote a paragraph as follows:

We are enjoying ourselves here in Perth, the weather is good and the money is good. However the one thing that will bring us back home in a few years time is the education system for the further education of our two children.

She went on to say that:

The education system in Ireland is miles ahead of what is on offer over here.

Was she asking for me?

These few words really sum up the high regard and the excellent quality of our educational system. Ministers from different Governments and the teachers generally deserve great credit for the manner in which they have provided an excellent facility for our young people. Our present Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, is doing a tremendous job. In difficult times she has managed to protect what we have and to bring about many essential improvements over the past two years in the area of school building, languages and other areas of education.

The Bill before us wants to change the system of selection and as a former VEC member I cannot understand why. If Fine Gael had a majority on the VECs, or had a majority at local authority level, I doubt if this Bill would be before us tonight. The present structures have served us well. I recall from memory that when I was a member of the VEC we had selection boards for principals, vice-principals "A" post holders. These boards of selection were usually the same — three members of the committee, a Department inspector, a CEO and it was compulsory for an IVEA member to be present for the selection of a principal and a vice-principal. We had a different board for the selection of "B" post holders. I feel this Bill is now casting a reflection on the integrity and the honesty of the members on these boards. I have to refute this. The Department of Education are always represented on such selection committees and I know that the inspector involved has only one interest in mind, that is, to select the best. The CEOs are also on such committees and I can safely say, judging from the knowledge I have from my own county of Wexford, that the CEO there has only one thing in mind. He is very responsible and in the selection process he wants to select the best teacher, the best principal or the best vice-principal for his schools. After all, the CEO has to work with the person selected for many years. Certainly he will not select a dud or anyone who in his opinion is not up to the required standard.

This brings me to the political side of the selection process. Normally the three people representing the VEC are politicians — in some cases there could be a clergyman, but generally it tends to be politicians. These politicians are elected by the people. They are answerable to the people for their actions and deeds at election time. In my experience of selection boards — which is confined to Wexford during my eight years on the VEC — and in my dealings with eight vocational schools, we had only one problem with one particular teacher who was not up to the required standard. I contend that over the years the process of selection which we have had at VEC level has served us well.

It saddens me at times to see politicians undermining themselves and their abilities. Too often we cheapen ourselves and the role we have to play in the eyes of the public. If we do not have respect for ourselves, it is very difficult for us to earn the respect of the general public. The people this Bill wants to get rid of are the real salt of the earth. They are public local representatives who give of their time voluntarily. They are honest and above reproach. This Bill questions the ability to make the right decision in the selection process.

I should like to remind Deputy Birmingham that there are people from his party on selection boards. In this respect I would mention Louise Hennessy from New Ross who is the principal of a secondary school. Is Deputy Birmingham saying that she is not capable of making a decision on who should be selected as a teacher, vice-principal or principal? I doubt it very much. She is the principal of one of the biggest schools in County Wexford and I believe she is well capable of making the right decisions in the interests of the students and the vocational education committees in County Wexford. It is important to have local representation. These people know what is best for local schools. They know the local climate. It is important that the Minister, in whatever legislation is introduced, should maintain local representation and local democracy to ensure that the views, ideas and the educational needs of the local areas are protected by whoever is selected in the years to come.

In many ways the Bill is an insult to the departmental inspectors, CEOs and members of VECs who have done much to provide the highest educational standards for, in some cases, the sons and daughters of less well off families in our community. The VEC schools have served the people of this country well and I do not think this Bill would be in the best interests of any future road the VECs may decide to go down. Over the years the VECs have provided second level education for their students regardless of their class or creed. I have always contended that the VEC teachers are in a class of their own. They do not have the advantage of selecting the best or brightest students; they cater for all students. There is no educational qualifying test involved for admittance to VEC schools and yet at examination time vocational schools turn out students who are top of the class. The intermediate and leaving certificate results of these students are on a par with any secondary school. The number of children from disadvantaged backgrounds catered for by the VECs is far greater than in any other sector of second level education.

In recent times the VECs have on occasion moved too far away from their original role and now place too much emphasis on intermediate and leaving certificate results and not enough on the practical subjects for which they were renowned in the past. For many years the group certificate was regarded as a very valuable document and people who had this certificate more often than not had an opportunity of serving their time as mechanics, carpenters, bricklayers, etc. The group certificate demonstrated itself to be the most practical examination of all at junior level. Included in the group certificate were subjects such as home economics, carpentry, mechanics, commerce, metalwork, etc.

I should like to compliment the Minister for Education on her initiative in introducing the junior certificate of education. This is an amalgamation of the intermediate and group certificates and will be introduced from September next for first year students, and for which teacher in-service courses are presently taking place. I hope that very soon the same revolutionary approach will be introduced at senior cycle level.

The vocational sector have an important role to play in conjunction with FÁS. There is a need for greater liasion between the two bodies and there should be greater co-operation in regard to apprenticeship schemes. There is tremendous teacher expertise in the different skills available in vocational schools and these should be utilised to the full by FÁS. What is happening at present in this area should be looked at. Local builders must send their apprentices to Waterford or Cork to complete the educational aspect of their training with FÁS. This education should be given at local VEC level where apprentices could work three or four days with the local builders and attend the local VEC school on other days. This would save a tremendous amount of money for the Exchequer, would ensure that many more people would receive the educational part of their training at local level and would ensure also a valuable increase in the number of apprentices who would come on stream for the different industries which exist at present.

The possibilities in the adult education area are enormous. Traditional adult education classes such as gardening, sewing, craftwork, art and leisure time classes are becoming less attractive and while a certain demand will always remain for these classes there is enormous potential for the providers of adult education in the area of second chance education — people who for one reason or another did not get the opportunity of a proper education and who now want to improve their education. The whole area of adult education should be tied in with FÁS and the VTP courses. RTCs should have a major role to play in adult education, particularly in the provision of evening classes which would enable adults to get another chance. RTCs should embrace the area of community education, provide opportunities for working class people living in the areas where RTCs are situated, such as Waterford or Carlow, and give an opportunity to those people to further their education during the evenings, the same as people in Dublin, Galway and Cork can do in the universities. The Minister should seriously consider the provision of evening classes in RTCs for adults who want to further their education or diversify into other careers but who can only do so if the educational system suits them.

There is also potential for married women to participate in day time certified adult education courses such as computers, secretarial skills and language programmes. This area should be looked at seriously so that such opportunities can be provided for married women who are anxious to further their education or learn an extra skill. These women have time to attend courses during the daytime when their children are at school and the vocational schools and RTCs should make space, time and teachers available to teach such classes.

The RTCs have been the success story of third level education. They follow through at a very practical level second level education and hopefully as a result of the new development at second level they will become even more relevant. The range of opportunities provided by the RTCs is enormous and they have given some students the opportunity of a third level education that otherwise would have been denied them because of a lack of financial resources which would have prevented them from attending universities. The RTCs have given these people an opportunity of third level education and have proven to be the success story of the last decade and this decade. This success has been due to the close liaison the RTCs have with industry. They are capable of providing the expertise for the various industries operating in the different counties. This expertise is becoming increasingly important with the vast technological changes which are taking place and I believe the RTCs will have an even greater role to play in expanding the Government's policies in relation to the development of natural resources, which tend to depend so much on the development of high technology, which will enable us to compete and take our place in the competitive marketplace with other EC countries.

I would ask the Minister to look seriously at the possibility of creating spurs or extensions from the RTCs to local VECs within their catchment areas. Programmes under the auspices of the RTCs, whether in Waterford in my constituency, in Carlow or elsewhere, should be provided in VEC schools which have the necessary facilities, particularly in my county where there is a number of new vocational schools. The Minister should look seriously at this area, particularly in regard to County Wexford which is an agricultural county.

There is a tremendous opportunity for development in the food, fruit and other areas relating to agriculture. In the area of agricultural science, I should like to remind the Minister that the only place available to us for this type of education is Tralee regional technical college. I would ask her to select County Wexford as a pilot area for the introduction of agricultural science courses under the auspices of Carlow or Waterford regional technical colleges. That would be a tremendous boost to the county and to the young people who want to pursue this type of career.

The Minister has given her approval to accepting the broad outline of the Bill. There are sections in it that would not be acceptable to many of our people who would like the present democratic system to continue within the VEC. I ask the Minister to ensure that when her own legislation is brought into the House it will have enshrined in it much of what has been in existence up to now, that the local VEC would have an input into the selection process and that the local elected members would have an input into that process. The greatest interview board of all is the electorate. If you pass that interview, you can sit on any board up and down the country. If you make mistakes, the electorate will decide to get rid of you.

The people who have been on the VEC selection boards have served us well. They are of the highest integrity and honour. If a survey were done on the teachers selected over the years, or the principals or vice-principals appointed, it would prove that there was very little wrong with the selections made. I have first hand knowledge of being a member of a VEC committee. I found, with regard to my county, that all the teachers within the VEC, whether ordinary teachers or those with posts of greater responsibility, vice-principals or principals, were of the highest integrity. They are of the highest standard so far as the teaching our young people is concerned. The results in the leaving certificate, group certificate and other certificate examinations have proved that. I would like to see very little change in this area. Naturally, the winds of change are blowing through the whole educational system and we must move with the times. The Minister has been doing a good job and she will continue to do it in the area of education. Whatever changes she decides to make will be in the best interests of our teachers, our students, and our educational structures generally. If our education is regarded worldwide as being of the highest quality, there is not much need to change the present structures.

I welcome the Bill before us and congratulate Deputy Birmingham for his initiative in bringing it forward. I compliment the Minister for Education for the magnanimous manner in which she greeted and treated the Bill. There seems to be a general consensus that it is a measure worth having, worth implementing and worth making part and parcel of the development and advancement of our vocational educational system.

Apart from the Minister, one notes that there was a certain amount of exaggerated comment from some Members on the other side of the House, in particular in relation to the purpose and nature of the Bill and what it actually sets out to do. It is a very short Bill, very clear and very unequivocal. It addresses a long standing problem in relation to vocational teachers and the vocational education system, that is, the need to introduce a proper, administrative and structured approach to the appointment of teachers and others within the vocational system.

I taught in a vocational education school in the early days of my teaching career and saw a system under which we had to go cap in hand to the county councillors and members of vocational education committees. That was the only interviewing process. Having done the circuit of your respective county, or borough, or whatever it might be, you then had to wait for the outcome of a meeting. Mind you, we were not supposed to go around the circuit at the time. The general theory was that canvassing would disqualify, even in those days. There was no interviewing procedure. It was a question of impressing them, and not so much impressing with your academic qualifications, or your strength of character, or your ability to do the job, but in many cases — and we know it applies to all sides of the House — it largely depended on your political credentials. In terms of many appointments, the stronger your political credentials, the greater the chance of your being appointed.

We welcomed the long overdue introduction of interview boards. It was a basic procedure that if somebody wished to apply for a job the least that he or she might do was face an interview board, be properly questioned in relation to competence, interests, skills, aptitude and, after that, have a decision made in relation to their competence or otherwise for a particular job. I would largely agree that the system worked relatively well, but it is one of the last bastions of the preserves of politicians. As long as politicians are operating, particularly at local level, there is a prospect, chance and, in fact, danger that the system will be abused.

By and large, the vocational education system benefited from the manner in which it was administered thus far, but, in an era in which we have independent local appointments commissions I cannot see why the vocational education system local authority members, or anybody, should claim that this element of the education scene should be excluded from a proper appointments procedure. What this measure purports to do is to introduce a method by which appointments henceforth will be made by the Local Appointments Commission, independent in composition, seen to be independent and having the absolute trust and confidence of both the people outside and those who are subjecting themselves to interview for appointments.

The vocational education system is one which has never really got cothrom na Féinne. Going back to the days before Professor Louden Ryan's tribunal in relation to salaries, we had at that time four salary scales. In the top bracket were the newly conceived comprehensive schools, then on a slightly lower tier we had the secondary system, next we had the vocational education system and finally at the bottom rung, very wisely or judiciously — not that it reflects on the primary schools — you had the salaries for the primary schools. Many people welcomed the long overdue introduction of a common basic salary for all.

In the sixties it was decided by the Minister's party to introduce into vocational education schools, for the first time ever, intermediate certificate and leaving certificate courses. We felt that now the vocational education system was being afforded a real chance to compete on equal terms with all and sundry, and particularly with its counterpart in the secondary school system. It was no denigration of the former régime that operated within vocational schools that they should be given this chance, the opportunity of studying for the intermediate and leaving certificates.

The group certificate is an examination that has been greatly under-rated. Its suitability or merits were, however, well recognised, particularly by the semi-State agencies such as the Electricity Supply Board, the predecessor of Telecom Éireann, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, Bord na Móna and so on. They were prepared to take on people directly after they obtained their group certificate and to bring them straight into their apprenticeship schemes. They could more than compete with the best because vocational schools have a curriculum that is well suited to cope with the demands of the 20th century. It has a range of subjects which gives it an aura of diversification because, now that they have been granted full status in regard to the leaving and intermediate certificates, there is a full range of academic subjects as well as the traditional ones of metalwork, woodwork, technical drawing and other new subjects.

Unfortunately, one of the most recent happenings is that, in relation to the degree of cutbacks that is expected to be borne by the various sectors which have come under the Minister's guillotine, the vocational sector has been asked to bear an undue burden. It has been proved by Professor Swan of University College, Dublin, that the literacy difficulties encountered by vocational school pupils are in the region of 30 per cent, whereas in the secondary schools the figure is in the region of 8 per cent. However, we have failed to inject the necessary capital and finance to enable the vocational schools to cope with this disability.

At present at junior cycle in the vocational system there are 50,531 pupils and at senior cycle there are 19,217. If you take a 30 per cent element deemed as having considerable difficulty with literacy, it demands that we should give the vocational system the necessary resources to develop their full potential and to cope with the demands put on them by the children attending vocational schools. It has been proved that a higher proportion of disadvantaged children attend vocational schools. This has always been so and it looks as if it will always be so. We must ensure that in future the necessary resources are made available so that vocational schools can do their work properly.

There are several reasons for introducing this Bill. It sets out to eliminate the possibilities of political interference, and it succeeds. It wants to appoint people of expertise to do the job and while many vocational education committee members are former teachers, serving teachers or parents on management committees, at the same time there are people on these committees who do not have the competence, skill or expertise to do the job properly, which is the least we might expect. The argument was made from the other side of the House that this will downgrade and weaken democracy at vocational educational level and that it will in some way damage it. I argue to the contrary. It will enhance and strengthen the vocational system because it will be seen to be above and beyond reproach. Never again can anyone outside the system point the finger and say there is a danger of political interference or contamination. We know that it has been one of the inhibiting factors when it has come to rationalisation in post-primary centres. When we have tried a system with secondary and vocational schools working in common enrolment, sharing subjects or taking it to its logical conclusion, by way of a community school, we have seen that the main reason the secondary system in particular tended to pull back is the fear of political interference in the management structure which would emerge within the new development. I do not see why, therefore, we should flinch in introducing this measure.

I disagree with Deputy Michael Higgins when he asked that the new régime be extended to secondary schools. It is not that I hold any particular grá or brief for secondary schools, but in fairness to them, they are private schools, privately owned and privately managed and, by and large, in terms of capital development they have been funded——

They are not privately funded.

As I said, in terms of capital development they have been funded by the nuns, priests and brothers long before the State got involved in post-primary education. These were the people who committed their resources to building those schools——

The salaries are paid by the State.

It is expecting too much to think that private schools should now take on a public system of appointment. The salaries are funded in terms of revenue but in terms of capital input the majority of the fabric that has been put in place has come unselfishly from their own resources.

We are talking about salaries, and they do not always hold interviews.

The secondary system has tended to be generously funded in terms of resources and subject development, but it was the religious orders who provided the money, and built and developed them. We should take one step at a time instead of cutting across the post-primary school area.

The recent survey carried out by the Teachers' Union of Ireland is in stark contrast to the claims made by the other side of the House in relation to our so called development and advancement of the vocational sector. The TUI survey points out that on average over the past year each vocational school has lost at least one subject. In most schools students' options were considerably curtailed. Three out of ten schools had to cut the length of their day by about four or five minutes per class which amounted to one and a half hours per week. The vast majority of schools — where you had a number working in unison — lost either career guidance or remedial teachers despite the fact that the statistics show that there is an increasing burden on the vocational sector.

Anything I say by way of praise for the vocational schools would be inadequate. Over the years, since the Vocational Education Act, 1930, they have done enormous work. These schools pioneered night classes, adult education classes and indeed day classes for adults. They introduced innovations that are now hailed as having been major flag bearers in the development of the post-primary sector. Community and comprehensive schools have formed the bulwark of the curriculum but in terms of pupil-teacher ratio, they never got fair play. The same applies to capital investment. The vast majority of vocational schools, when there was a major expansion programme in the sixties and seventies, were given substandard, prefab dwellings in which to inculcate learning into their pupils. These are the areas of education, the vocational sector in particular, that have the greatest potential if they were only given a chance. By adopting this measure glasnost will emerge and there is a consensus on all sides of the House that it is a good measure. By doing so we will have gone another step down the road towards the proper evolution of our vocational system. This is a significant night and perhaps, in the years to come, we will get round to advocating and accepting a local appointments commission for the secondary scheme which Deputy Michael Higgins wants.

I welcome the debate on this Bill and the contributions made by various speakers from all sides of the House. It has given us an opportunity to have a very worth-while debate on local and vocational education in the past and how it will shape up in the future. It has been a very constructive debate and it is a compliment to the spokesperson on Education, Deputy Birmingham, and the Minister that we have had such a constructive debate. Many interesting points have been made on all sides of the House by the various spokespersons, including Deputy Higgins. The report of this debate makes interesting reading. It has helped to bring forward the general debate on education. It is timely that it should take place now and perhaps it is an omen for the future.

There has been much comment from all sides of the House on this Bill. Much of the comment from this side was favourable. Members on this side of the House did make some criticisms and there are points on which there are differences, but there are also many points on which there is agreement. The speech made by the Minister is worthy of study because she outlined many of the developments which have taken place and her general agreement with the ethos of this Bill. She also said there may be a necessity to take another look at some of the detail.

This Bill seeks to remove from vocational education committees the powers they exercise in the selection and appointment of teachers in schools run by the vocational education committees. It is proposed that the function of the selection of teachers for appointment by VECs should be exercised by the Commissioners of Local Appointments. There are some merits, and perhaps some demerits, in that proposal. In general we on this side of the House, given that the Minister has already initiated very significant and radical changes in the education process, would agree that on this specific question there is a need to review the system which has worked well. While some problems have been experienced and the system has its disadvantages, it is fair to say that the system has worked well during the past 60 years.

However, the changes proposed in this Bill would represent a significant change in the statutory position and in the selection and appointments procedure which has been in place for those 60 years. Given this background one would be justified in dwelling on the need for change, the objectives of change and the actual effect of the Bill at present before the House. Any proposals to amend legislation obviously require detailed and careful consideration by Ministers, the Government, their advisers and all those who have an interest in the future of education to ensure that all aspects of the proposed law are appropriate to the situation which it is desired to address and that any practical problems in implementation are identified and resolved.

One of the difficulties for an Opposition spokesperson in introducing such fundamental legislation is that it is quite difficult to assess all the implications which such a fundamental change would bring about, and to make an objective assessment of the effects of such fundamental changes. The present system of selection of teachers by VECs which has been in place, as I said, for most of this century has by and large operated quite successfully. Any proposals for change have to be subjected to a searching examination to ensure that they would operate effectively. I am sure the Members of the House would agree with me when I say that the aim in establishing selection procedures should be to secure a system which is equitable, efficient, effective and as economical as possible.

In this context a series of questions spring to mind about the proposed new procedure envisaged under the Bill now before the House. Will the shift in authority from the VEC to the Commissioners of Local Appointments result in a more equitable and effective system? Do the proposals have the seeds of movement towards greater centralisation which would be totally in conflict with the aims and spirit of the Vocational Education Acts? Is there not a distinct danger that the costs involved in the proposed system will exceed those under the existing system? Will the proposed selection procedures offer the speed of response often necessary in the filling of teacher appointments?

In this context I would remind Members that teaching is not a bureaucratic activity and it is possible to countenance delay in the filling of administrative and clerical positions which, in the context of teaching, could cause unacceptable dislocation to the learning process of pupils and the life of the school generally. With the potential loss of detailed knowledge of the local environment, would the needs under the proposed selection procedure be detrimental to the selection process or at minimum render it less effective than the present modus operandi? It is this point which has thrown up some of the most interesting contradictions in the contributions to this debate. Deputy Deenihan in contradicting the points made by Deputy Batt O'Keeffe said and I quote from the Official Report of 22 February 1989, Volume 387, column 1305:

I think Deputy O'Keeffe said that these people need local knowledge and knowledge of the ethos of the school. Does that mean that even though a teacher may be well qualified, because they would not fit into the ethos of a school, they should not be appointed?

He went on to make the point that local knowledge should not necessarily be an important factor in the appointment of teachers. However, he proceeded to inform the House, and I quote:

I taught in a comprehensive school in Tarbert where there were teachers from all over Ireland in that school. Those teachers were appointed by an appointments committee who were based locally and I am sure they had no local knowledge when they appointed those teachers. It appears that there is a contradiction there, as quite clearly the appointment of teachers to community and comprehensive schools are made by people who come from the locality — the local VEC, parents and teachers.

This system was only put in place in recent years and as far as I can establish it is working extremely well. Therefore having local knowledge and having a fully decentralised system of appointments does have very significant advantages. One of my reservations about the proposal to give over to the Local Appointments Commission the sole responsibility for the appointment of teachers is that it inevitably would become a very centralised system of appointment which may not have the local knowledge which forms a very important and significant part of the vocational education system and, as I said, of our community and comprehensive schools.

It would be appropriate to advert to the fact that the Vocational Education Acts provide for a management committee representing a range of expertise at local level to ensure that the statutory responsibilities of the committee are carried out to best effect. Chief among these statutory responsibilities is the delivery and development of education services within the committee's area. Against this background is there not a case for arguing, in view of the committee's legal responsibilities, that it should have the commensurate power to take decisions on one of the most fundamental factors influencing the delivery and development of educational services, namely, the appointment of suitable teachers?

Having argued over important general aspects of the Bill and its intent, I would now like to address some issues of detail which may present practical difficulties. For instance, the Bill, as drafted, would appear to involve the Commissioners of Local Appointments in the filling of every type of teaching post, be it part time, whole time, temporary or whole time permanent. In drafting this Bill was any consideration given to the case of substitute teachers in the vocational education system arising from sick leave, maternity leave or other circumstances which may give rise to short-term teaching vacencies?

I raise these issues not out of a desire to be negative or critical about the Bill but to ensure that Members approach their consideration of the measure as fully informed about the pro and contra arguments as possible. As the House is aware, the Minister for Education is in the course of preparing legislation to provide, inter alia, for the rationalisation of vocational education structures and to accord greater autonomy to third level colleges under the aegis of the VECs. In this context the Minister is taking the opportunity to examine other desirable changes in the existing legislation which has served the country well over 60 years.

Let me take this opportunity to compliment the Minister on initiating a whole range of reforming legislation not alone in this sector but in the post primary and primary school sector generally. I am sure Members of the House will agree, particularly the Education spokespeople, that the work being carried out by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment is reforming many aspects of the curricula in both the primary and post primary sectors, reform which is long overdue. One would not wish to forget about the contribution of the Minister's predecessor in initiating this work in the first instance. These are exciting times for education. It is significant that we have a Minister who is prepared to make fundamental reforms which many of us feel are long overdue. In that context the reform being proposed in this Bill is appropriate. The Minister for Education will be taking into account the views which have been put forward by the speakers in this debate particularly by the proposer of the motion, Deputy Birmingham, and by my favourite Opposition spokesman on education and my former teacher, Deputy Higgins.

The passage of education is too slow.

Legislation will be formulated for VECs and RTCs and the points made by the various spokespeople will be incorporated in this legislation. Very significant also in the Minister's drafting of the new legislation will be the viewpoint put forward by the Teacher's Union of Ireland in their support for and acceptance of the measures in general in this Bill. Once again let me say that the view of the TUI is very important in the considerations of the Minister. The Minister is careful at all times to consult with and listen to the advice of the TUI, as she does with the other unions.

In general I welcome this Bill and the provisions contained in it. The specifics and the details have to be considered further perhaps and I am glad to say the Minister will be giving full consideration and will welcome an opportunity to have further discussions with the various spokespeople on the drafting of the legislation for the development and rationalisation of the vocational education sector.

We have a fairly full public gallery at the moment and I suspect they may be finding it a somewhat unusual occasion because in the nature of things the reports we tend to have in the Press and on TV of events in this House seem to concentrate on occasions when the Dáil is suspended because of grave disorder or a Member is ordered from the House having disagreed with the Chair or whatever. The degree of consensus that has fallen on the House this evening will come as a surprise to the people in the gallery and perhaps somewhat of a disappointment. I suspect it might have provided a more memorable occasion for their visit if we were at each other's throats.

Perhaps they should have been here last week.

I am sure Deputy Higgins will be in a position to give advice to any Members bringing delegations in as to when controversy can be guaranteed.

I want to begin by thanking all those who contributed during the debate. In particular I thank the Minister for the openness of her response and for the fact that she has sat here throughout the four evenings of the debate and listened to every contribution. I thank her very warmly for that. In thanking the contributors I would like to thank you, Sir, and also the Leas-Cheann Comhairle and the Ceann Comhairle because you have shown a degree of indulgence to all of us in allowing us broaden the debate and perhaps at times go beyond the strict scope of the Bill. The result has been that we have had a fairly wide ranging debate in relation to vocational education in Ireland, and that has been a very useful exercise. The debate has been of very high quality and I must say I have learned much and that I have been privileged to listen to many of the contributions. Even on the specific issue of the method of appointment the degree of personal experience which has been brought to bear on the debate has been striking. We have had contributions from a number of people on different sides of the House who have participated on interview boards and they brought that background to bear. Others have been there as candidates at the interview boards and subsequently gone on to serve as teachers in the vocational system. All told it has been an extremely well informed debate and I am very pleased with that.

While I was pleased to listen to the contribution from every Member who contributed, I have to say that in some instances I detected a note of what seemed to be an undue defensiveness, a slight tendency to be a little over sensitive and thin skinned. There was no wish whatever on my part to cause offence and no one should take offence from the measure we are putting forward. When I opened this debate last week and moved the Bill on behalf of the Fine Gael Party I was careful not to criticise any VEC or any member of any VEC. Individual instances had been brought to my attention and of course they were in my mind when I was framing the Bill. Since the Bill was published and achieved a degree of publicity further instances have been brought to my mind, but that is what they are. They are individual people putting individual views. Clearly I would not have seen the other side of the coin and in each of those instances there may well be another side, so I pass no judgment on the validity of any one of them. My purpose is not to criticise, not to condemn because I am satisfied that the individual committees and individual members have done the best they can with the system. My purpose is to address the system.

I was struck by Deputy Browne's anxiety that the Bill was in some sense an example of politicians selling themselves short, politicians doing down politicians. That criticism would concern me because I would not wish to be part of that kind of thing. I do not think democracy is well served by the constant campaign of criticism directed against politicians from some quarters. The belief, which is peddled from some sources, that politicians exist for whatever they can get out of a system is not healthy or conducive to strengthening our democracy. I would not want to be any part of such criticism and I would not want anyone to see this Bill in any sense associated with that trend.

This Bill would be good for the vocational system. It would be good for those people right around the country who have made such an enormous contribution to the vocational education system and its development by serving in an unpaid capacity as members of VECs and it would be good for teachers in the system.

I said last week that the purpose of the Bill was to assert and vindicate the professional status of the vocational teacher and it is on that principle that we stand. In principle there can be no justification for distinguishing between the position of the teacher in the vocational system and every other professional employed by the State who comes for appointment before the Civil Service Commission or the Local Appointments Commission. He submits his application; it is considered on its merits and he is either appointed or not. The vocational teacher, uniquely, has to subject himself to a quite different system of appointment, a system where at least the possibility of lobbying and political influence arises.

It is good that this change should be made in the interests of those who serve on vocational education committees. The present system places them in an invidious position. The have to receive the applicants and respond to those who will make representations and lobby on behalf of individual candidates. It is good for democracy that politicians should remove themselves from the act of making individual appointments. Our democracy has been well served by the fact that from the foundation of the State no party has been in a position to influence appointments to the Civil Service. Our system of local democracy has been strengthened by the fact that, from the very early years of the State, no party has been in a position to make appointments of senior staff at local authority level. Those who make their contribution to public life through vocational education committees will be strengthened in their work by being removed from the suspicion associated with the present system.

I indicated last week that we are seeking to address a longstanding irritant with the teaching profession. They felt that the present system which differentiated them from every other profession working for the State represented some question or shadow being placed over their professional status. I suggested that it was important to address such an anxiety in order to respond to a crisis of morale within the vocational education system. I indicated then that I did not believe this was in any sense a complete or comprehensive response and that clearly there was much else to be done. Response from different parts of the Chamber have taken up the line that, while the principle of this Bill is to be welcomed, there are other areas to be addressed as well.

The Progressive Democrats, while going along with this Bill, indicated through their spokesman, Deputy Máirín Quill, an impatience to see wider reforms being introduced. She was anxious to see legislation dealing with rationalisation of the VEC system and the number of vocational education committees around the country. I share that sense of impatience and I accept entirely that it would be preferable not to proceed on a piece meal basis. It would be preferable if the House were in a position to deal with a comprehensive reform package for the vocational education system, a packge that would deal, for example, with the question of rationalisation, the role of the RTCs and affording them the autonomy they have so richly earned, but still establishing clearly that there is to be a relatioship with a democratic local structure, either the VEC or whatever structure might replace it. I should like to see a Bill which would address the particular needs of the Dublin Institute of Technology, for whom Deputy Flaherty made such an eloquent plea earlier.

I would much rather that this important question of appointments would take its place within that wider context, but I would be concerned not to reach a position where the best would become the enemy of the good, where by waiting around to achieve agreement on everything we would not make progress on issues which are now available for decision. The Minister said she proposes to introduce legislation and indicated that this question of appointments can be addressed in the context of that legislation. I would be anxious to see that legislation before the House as quickly as possible and I would be very content to see the question of appointments dealt with in such a Bill. If the House will agree to give a Second Reading to this Bill, we will be content to wait, but not too long, to see what proposals the Minister has to offer. The view has been expressed by every party who contributed that if comprehensive legislation can be achieved for the vocational system within a reasonably short timetable, that is the way in which to proceed.

Some of those who spoke seemed to be just a little defensive, nervous of change and sensitive. Some of them went so far as to express anxiety that this might be seen as an attack on or a weakening of the vocational education system. I am rather bewildered as to how they could reach that conclusion. Whatever they might think of my intentions, I do not see how they could imagine that the Teachers' Union of Ireland would lend their name to any legislation designed to criticise the vocational education system. Members on all sides of the House, particularly on the Government side, went out of their way to express their admiration and appreciation of what is happening within the vocational education system.

It is entirely right that this opportunity should have been taken during the past two weeks. I can only express regret that the opportunity was not availed of on the last occasion the House debated vocational education. On that occasion the issue was the provision by the State of the basic resources to allow the vocational education system to maintain its level of service. Those who spoke in the course of this debate from the benches opposite in defence of the traditions of vocational education were silent on that occasion when measures were being put through the House which have inflicted woeful damage on the vocational education system. Those who spoke with such obvious knowledge and feeling about the very particular contribution the vocational education system has made to teaching and the education of the disadvantaged were strangely silent when this side of the House opposed the ill-thought-out proposal to put all schools on the same pupil-teacher ratio, a measure which rejected and denied the whole tradition and mission the vocational system has had in caring for the needs of the disadvantaged. How much better it would have been had they contributed on that occasion.

I hope that the Minister for Education and her Department, as well as her colleagues in Government, will take it from this debate that on all sides of the House there is a very strong recognition of the contribution vocational education has made and is making and a widespread recognition of the difficulties under which it now labours and a very strong desire on all sides that the cuts to which the system has been subjected during the past few years should now be reversed. There is a recognition on all sides of the House that it is not acceptable to say that all schools are the same and should have the same pupil-teacher ratio. There is a system of education which has taken to itself in a very particular way the task of educating the disadvantaged. That sector deserves the support and encouragement of the Oireachtas.

The Bill represents a limited but important reform. I hope it will not be too long before it finds its way on to the Statute Book. Whether it finds its way on to the Statute Book in its present form, a modified form or is to be incorporated into more widely drawn legislation I mind little. My anxiety is that two things should happen, first that the principle we have raised will be addressed reasonably expeditiously and, secondly, that the Minister will realise the impatience with which all sides of the House await the legislation which has had such a lengthy gestation period. There has been talk for years about the need to reform the Vocational Education Act, 1930, but, despite all that talk, we still await with growing impatience the legislation that has been promised.

I urge the House to give support to the Bill and to indicate to the Minister that we eagerly and impatiently await a more widely drawn reform.

Question put and agreed to.

Standing Order 87 in respect of a Private Members' Bill of this kind provides that should a Private Members' Bill pass its Second Reading it shall be referred to a select or special committee but the making of such a motion does not arise tonight.

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