Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Mar 1989

Vol. 387 No. 9

Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - EC Structural Funding.

14.

Proinsias De Rossa

asked the Minister for Finance the present position regarding Ireland's application for EC structural funding; if he can give an estimate of the amount this country is likely to receive; the progress which has been made in the preparation of national and regional operational programmes; if the consultants' report for the Dublin programme has yet been received from the consultants; if so, if it is intended to publish it; the steps he intends to take to encourage public discussion on the issues involved; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

41.

Mr. Gregory

asked the Minister for Finance if it is his intention to publish the consultants' report to enable elected representatives to comment before the Government makes its submission for EC Structural Funds for the greater Dublin area; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Mr. Reynolds

I propose to take Questions Nos. 14 and 41 together.

Ireland's regional development plan which forms the basis for applications for assistance from the EC Structural Funds is now nearing completion and it will be submitted to the EC Commission before the deadline of 31 March this year.

The Community is committed to doubling assistance from the Structural Funds to the least prosperous regions, including Ireland by 1992. However, the precise amount which Ireland will receive will be determined in the Community Support Framework which the Commission will draw up in consultation with Ireland following the submission of the national development plan. It would not be appropriate at this stage to put a firm figure on Ireland's likely receipts.

The drafting of operational programmes is at an advanced stage. The report of the consultants who have been engaged by the Government in the context of the Dublin area has not yet been completed. It is expected that it will be available during this month. No decision has been taken regarding the publication of the report. Consultations have taken place with the social partners through the Central Review Committee of the Programme for National Recovery and with local representations, interest groups and individuals through the sub-national working and advisory groups. As the Taoiseach has indicated arrangements will be made to debate the plan in this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling, firstly, Deputy Gregory who has a question tabled on this subject and is present in the House.

Mr. Gregory

Is the Minister aware that there has been no ongoing consultation whatever with the elected members of Dublin City Council in relation to work of the consultants? Indeed, the city council had to call a special meeting within the last two weeks to draw the City Manager's attention to their concern at the absence of consultation? Is the Minister concerned at this situation and could he indicate what action he might take to ensure that, as in other areas, there is proper consultation with the elected members representing Dublin city?

Mr. Reynolds

If what Deputy Gregory has said is correct — and I have no reason to doubt it — then questions have to be asked as to why the structures which were put in place are not working in relation to Dublin Corporation as in every other local authority. In relation to the second part of his question, I have no plans to change the composition of the working groups or the advisory groups at this late stage.

Mr. Gregory

Will the Minister try to ensure, even at this late stage, that there is direct consultation — I am not asking him to change the structures — with the members of Dublin City Council? Is it his intention to try to ensure that a significant proportion of whatever funds become available will go directly to disadvantaged urban communities as distinct from infra-structural projects such as roads and so forth?

Mr. Reynolds

An element of infra-structural spending on productive investment will be the surest way to make a decent response to poverty. The creation of jobs is one of the biggest contributions that the Structural Funds could make. In that regard improving our infrastructure, by reducing some of the cost disadvantages in which we operate at present, should lead to the creation of jobs. That is one of the most direct ways in which we can respond to poverty and disadvantaged areas. In relation to further discussions the matter should be taken up with the City Manager as to why the structures are not working. What is the situation? Is the Deputy reporting that the advisory groups are not working?

Mr. Gregory

We have done that without success.

Mr. Reynolds

I certainly will draw it to the City Manager's attention.

Tomás Mac Giolla

The Minister in his reply said the amount of money is not available and will not be until the plans are revised. I am aware of that. My question asked the Minister to give an Estimate of the amount involved, estimates of £3 billion and £4 billion have been tossed about. Can the Minister say if those figures are close to the mark? Since Ireland is one region so far as the EC is concerned, can the Minister say who will decide on the allocation of that £3 billion, £4 billion or whatever to the different regions in the country? Will the EC allocate it to the different areas or do the Government decide on the overall allocation within the country?

Mr. Reynolds

We will lodge the national plan by 31 March. There are no allocations made on the basis of that plan; the allocations are made after the operational programmes have been lodged in Brussels and have been gone through specifically. It is only on foot of the operational programmes that specific amounts will be allocated. I am not going to speculate as to what the figure may be. I can assure Deputy Mac Giolla and the House that I will be looking for the maximum amount which can be got out of the Structural Funds. I know figures of £3 billion and £4 billion have been speculated on, but these are very wide of the mark.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Can the Minister——

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I was going to call Deputy Desmond who had been offering earlier.

Tomás Mac Giolla

With regard to the allocation of that funding——

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Barry Desmond.

Tomás Mac Giolla

——will the Government or the EC decide what amounts go to the different regions?

An Ceann Comhairle

We are having repetition. It seems to be a particular question, and perhaps the Deputy should put down a question along those lines.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Can the Minister say who will deal specifically with the allocation of those funds when they come?

Mr. Reynolds

Firstly, the decision on the allocations will be made in Brussels on foot of the operational programmes and these may be under the headings of tourism, telecommunications, roads, infrastructure, access transport, access to ports, airports and other various areas. The allocations will be decided on foot of the operational programmes and the Government will decide after that.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Who will deal with them?

An Ceann Comhairle

I want to bring in Deputy Desmond and Deputy Michael Noonan.

Mr. Desmond

Is the Minister aware that there is very serious disquiet at senior Community level that the moneys being sought by the Government are not new moneys but rather substituted moneys for the cuts in the public capital programme projected by the Department of Finance between now and 1992?

Mr. Reynolds

Firstly, I am sure the Deputy knows, as well as I do — and maybe he is being a bit mischievous here——

Mr. Desmond

No.

Mr. Reynolds

——that the question of additionality must be respected and one cannot con the people in Brussels with regard to additionality. Secondly it is quite clear to us and to everybody else who studies it, that the Government cannot take Structural Funds to replace their Exchequer funding. This is simply not on.

Mr. Desmond

May I put it to the Minister that in the draft submitted to Brussels two weeks ago he has done precisely that? This cannot be denied because the documentation, admittedly in tentative form is available and the tables, data and breakdown submitted on the structural side will clearly show that this it the position.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy seems to be imparting a lot of information rather than seeking it.

Mr. Desmond

Finally, when it is finalised will the application be published by the Government in the form of a White Paper to be laid before the discussions? In particular, I want the Minister to reply to the first part of my question, namely, that the material sent over at official level so far——

An Ceann Comhairle

I cannot permit a debate on this matter today.

Mr. Reynolds

The public capital programme and the additions to it in the 1989 budget are the basis on which the 1989 figure will work——

Mr. Desmond

The Minister has projected cuts.

Mr. Reynolds

——and I do not know why the Deputy asked a silly question like that in relation to the 1989 capital programme.

Mr. Desmond

The 1988 figure was cut and the 1989 figure is being cut.

Mr. Reynolds

Surely the Deputy knows that the figure I put in the budget represents the capital expenditure for 1989 and, of course, that has to be part of the application to Brussels.

Mr. Desmond

It has already been cut.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am calling Deputy Michael Noonan.

Mr. Desmond

We know exactly what the Minister is doing.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Desmond.

Mr. Reynolds

The Deputy is listening to Deputy Quinn's fairytales——

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear a question from Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Desmond

The Minister has cut the 1989 figure and he is proposing to do the same for 1990 and 1991.

Mr. Reynolds

——and he does not even understand what it is all about. The Deputy should give him a lesson on it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Michael Noonan. Let us hear the Deputy who is rightfully in possession.

Mr. Desmond

There is no net increase.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy Desmond.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): There is a timetable implicit in the Minister's reply. Can the Minister detail an explicit timetable from now, through the consideration processes, to the point where actual allocations are announced across the sectors? Can the Minister reply in general terms?

Mr. Reynolds

I genuinely cannot because we lodge the national plan and operational programmes on time and it depends on the time the different DGs take to go through the various operational programmes. It is only when they are satisfied and it comes back to the central co-ordination unit under the relevant Commissioner that final allocations will be made. The Government will be on time and we have used the opportunity of taking Brussels along with us every step of the way. It is not a question of putting in a plan, waiting for a response, sending back answers, waiting for more responses and sending back more answers; we are going through the process together on this basis to hopefully eliminate any waste of time that might occur.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): I appreciate the Minister's difficulty in replying precisely to the question but does he expect that by the autumn of 1989 he will be in possession of information to indicate the allocation for the total programme over a three to five year period?

Mr. Reynolds

By when?

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): By June, September or December.

Mr. Reynolds

As early as possible in the summer or before it. That is as specific as I can be. It does not all rest in my hands but I will be pushing every day of every week to get the money in order to get the programmes up and running.

Mr. Noonan

(Limerick East): Can we expect a decent announcement on 24 May or some time around that date?

Mr. Reynolds

I would not even think of the European elections.

An Ceann Comhairle

A final question from Deputy Gregory.

Mr. Gregory

The Minister said that the consultant's report in relation to the Dublin area will be available this month. Will he make the report available to the Members of this House?

Mr. Reynolds

I am sure we will read about it even before we get it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Question No. 15.

Mr. Gregory

Will the Minister say if he will give it to the Members of this House?

An Ceann Comhairle

Question No. 15 has been called.