We can now proceed with the Adjournment Debate. Deputies Monica Barnes and Eamon Gilmore gave me notice of their intention to raise on the Adjournment the subject matter of the present and future position at Carysfort College.
Adjournment Debate. - Carysfort College.
I want to thank you for granting time to me, Deputy Seán Barrett and Deputy Eamon Gilmore. I indicated this morning that three of us would like to share the time. Since this is the first public opportunity I have had, I congratulate the Minister for Education and wish her success in office. I should like to believe that the matter we are discussing will be one of her succesess.
It will be recalled that there was much public debate inside and outside the House some years ago regarding the future of Carysfort College. It is timely for us to recall what was said about what the college had offered to the community and what it was hoped it could continue to offer in the future. A press release from Carysfort College on Tuesday, 18 February 1986, highlighted the resources and facilities which made it such an appropriate and desirable facility for education. It pointed out that in 1982 a new library, a 700-seat auditorium, a sports centre and an audio-visual centre with professional quality video equipment were officially opened by the then Minister for Education.
The facilities at Carysfort were compared very favourably with those in other third level institutions. The lecture theatres and tutorial rooms could accommodate up to 1,000 students. The ultramodern resources included an impressive library of books, slides, audio and video tapes, micro-teaching facilities, closed circuit television, a computer centre and facilities including reprographic equipment for producing teaching materials. There was also a fully equipped gymnasium, a new 700-seat multi-purpose auditorium furnished with a retractable stage and highly flexible sound and lighting equipment. The press release went on to extol the extensive grounds containing sports fields as well as basketball and tennis courts and the college's superb restraurant.
We would seem to be faced with a decision that will not allow such superb resources and facilities to continue to be used for third level education, where the great need is just beginning to become apparent. Those facilities may be demolished to make way for a profit-sharing development which would not only remove one of our greatest third level institutions but would have serious negative results for the environment and the community who share those superb sports facilities.
I now refer to the obligation of the Sisters of Mercy in this regard. In a newsletter sent by the college in 1986 they actually say that Dr. John Colohan, educational historian, has referred to the present proposal to close Carysfort as one of the most monumental of missed opportunities in the history of Irish education, this at a moment when Irish education is facing the greatest quantitative needs and qualitative challenges in its history. It is absolutely astonishing that this view was held so strongly at that time by the Sisters of Mercy and that the same order now, a few years later, can so lightly decide that these facilities should be removed, without any reference to the huge State investment which went into creating the superb facilities and also without reference to their moral obligation to allow Carysfort to continue as an institution of education and to pay back what is owed to the taxpayer.
I urge the Minister to take these points very seriously and not allow the State to be done out of such a wonderful facility into which so much State investment has been poured. We ask for the moral and economic obligations of the Sisters of Mercy to be recognised.
I join Deputy Barnes in wishing the Minister luck in her reappointment to the Department of Education. She will have to act very quickly if the wishes of the Deputies from the constituency and her own wishes are to be realised in this case so that the fine facility at Carysfort will be retained in educational use.
The Minister's Department have a lot of answering to do to some very serious questions. In reply to parliamentary questions which I put down to the Minister today and yesterday we were told that from 1977 efforts were being made by her Department to make some arrangement whereby the State's investment in Carysfort would be protected for the State. Somewhere along the line those efforts seem to have gone astray and do not appear to have been followed through by the Department. There are very serious questions to be answered by the Department as to how we find that a large State investment has been made and the State has not been protected.
The Sisters themselves have some serious questions to answer. I am informed in one of the Minister's replies today that the authorities of the Mercy Order did not specifically inform the Minister or her Department of the intention to sell the college. I am not quite sure what "specifically inform"" means exactly, but it is quite clear that the Sisters put the college on the market at a time of fairly low political activity. Considerable pressure will have to be brought on the Order to ensure that the college is not sold from under our feet on 14 September. It is important that this facility be retained in educational use. It would not be sufficient to allow the Sisters to sell the property and make some recoupment to the State.
This is a fine educational facility. A builder will not have much use for lecture halls and language laboratories. There is a specific educational proposal before the Minister which was put to her by Dún Laoghaire VEC, to the effect that the proposed regional technical college should be accommodated at Carysfort. This would also make economic sense because it would save the State the estimated £15 million it would cost to build a regional college in the first place and, secondly, it would release the lands which are currently designated for the regional college for some other use.
I urge the Minister with great urgency to persuade the Sisters of Mercy not to go ahead with the sale on 14 September. If they cannot be persuaded, the Minister should take whatever legal remedies are necessary to prevent that sale from going ahead and should enter into negotiations to ensure that the facility is kept in educational use. We do not want a situation where the facility is sold and we then regret the loss to us. There is a great need for third level educational places in the greater Dublin area. In our constituency, beside Carysfort college, there are young people who are travelling to Waterford, Galway and Athlone to attend regional technical colleges. They could be facilitated in their immediate locality. It would be quite wasteful, wrong and immoral if this fine facility were to be sold at a time when it is needed for the young people of the area and of greater Dublin.
I join my colleagues in congratulating the Minister on her reappointment and I wish her well. I also thank my colleagues for sharing some time with me. I had endeavoured to raise the matter on the Adjournment yesterday as a result of a very unsatisfactory reply to a written question. The reply consisted of three lines.
There were better ones today.
I am speaking for myself. All of us would share the same concern. We want Carysfort retained as an educational centre. It is nearly four years since the initial decision was taken not to allow Carysfort to continue as a training college for primary teachers. The reasons were obvious and I do not think anybody would want to keep a college open when the need is catered for in other locations. In March 1986, Deputy O'Rourke, who is now fortunate enough to hold the position of Minister for Education, was then Opposition spokes-person on Education and made an excellent argument in favour of retaining this centre. Having read the report very carefully, there is very little I could disagree with her on. All I am asking her to do is to implement in 1989 what she suggested in 1986. Because of the shortage of time——
Do not be unkind.
——I will not list all of the good points she made. Having read the report, I felt that if there had been a free vote on that occasion I probably would have supported her — I am referring to the Official Report of 4 March 1986. If she has forgotten what she said on that occasion, she might take a few minutes off to read it because what she said then is even more relevant today.
I also want to put it on record that it was never the intention of the then Government to close Carysfort College as an educational centre. The Minister, if she looks at her record, would have to agree that it was decided to no longer use the college as a training centre for primary teachers. If I recall correctly, the former Deputy Cooney who was then Minister for Education set up a committee to review the position and to see what other uses Carysfort College could be put to. I have never seen the report produced by that committee, but I am certain it contained some positive suggestions which could easily be implemented.
It would be an absolute scandal if over £2 million of taxpayers' money, invested in this excellent centre since 1979, could not be recovered. I do not want to recover that money; all I want is for Carysfort College to be retained as an educational centre. We continually discuss the problem of unemployment but anybody who has any sense would realise that it will be impossible to obtain employment in the future without adequate skills and proper education because of the arrival of the machine. The more people we can get into education, even at a late age, will benefit the economy. I am certain whatever this would cost, we would recoup it in the long term.
There are also the recreational aspects. In an area like Blackrock it is very difficult to find open space——
It is the last open space there.
It is already overcrowded. There would be absolute chaos, in terms of the road network, if more houses were built. All these arguments do not need to be put on the record as they are well known and will be made in other places. However, it is vitally important before we reach the wire that some steps are taken. If necessary, we should purchase Carysfort from the sisters. I am quite certain, as Deputy Gilmore has said, we will ultimately save money because we will have to purchase land to build third level colleges in the area. Carysfort College can be used if adapted properly. It has all the necessary facilities, and surely we are not going to show bad leadership by allowing this centre to be sold and the facilities demolished so that houses can be built, when, a couple of miles down the road, we will have to spend taxpayers' money erecting new buildings.
Let us be realistic. This centre is located near a DART station. It can service the south-east, because there is a rail line from Wexford. It is a better location for a third level college than the site planned. It has everything going for it. Before the Minister replies let me make a final plea. If the only way to retain this centre is for the State to purchase it, so be it. I am not in the business of spending money for the sake of it but a direct swap can be made with the land we already have and the money that will have to be spent providing a third level college. We could look at the possibility of providing third level education there, providing in-service training courses in language skills and so on for existing teachers and so on. All these suggestions were made by the present Minister in March 1986 and all she said then is even more important today.
At the outset let me thank the Deputies for their good wishes. I hope in turn their time in the House will prove fruitful. In particular, I pay a special welcome to the new Deputy, Deputy Gilmore. However, this does not take from my welcome to the longer serving Deputies.
I thank the Deputies for raising this matter and I am glad before the House adjourns to have an opportunity to place some of the facts on the record. Questions were dealt with during the week and the precise facts were produced. Deputies Gilmore, Barrett and Barnes pooled their information and we now have the background to the issue.
As the Deputies are aware from the replies given to questions raised, in the seventies the State invested about £2.5 million in the extension and adaptation of Carysfort College. At that time it seemed the number of births would continue to increase and everybody kept thinking that there would be more children and bigger families. Of course, it later became apparent that this trend would not continue. It was against that background that the then Government decided to scale down or close one of the major primary teacher training colleges. Deputy Barrett and Deputy Barnes have said that was the correct decision at that time. The former Deputy, Mrs. Hussey, who was then Minister for Education, announced in February 1986 that the Government's decision could best be implemented through the closure of Carysfort College. The State made a very substantial investment in Carysfort College and it would be unfortunate to say the least if this if magnificent resource were lost to the educational system.
Since the decision to close the college was announced I have been, and still am, very anxious to secure the continued use of the premises for educational purposes. Considerable efforts have been made — it is important to put this on the record — since the decision to close the college was announced to negotiate arrangements with the Mercy Order — who own the property — under which educational activities could continue in the Carysfort premises. In April 1986 the then Minister, former Deputy Cooney, established a working group whose terms of reference included the making of firm proposals to the Government regarding the future role of Carysfort College. This group had discussions with the authorities of the Mercy Order and reported in February 1987. The principal thrust of the proposals in the report was that the partnership between the Minister for Education and the Congregation of the Sisters of Mercy should continue and that the facilities should be used for the operation of appropriate courses. That involved the secondment of Carysfort staff to serve in UCD, in other colleges of education and in other third level colleges. That was the first report.
At that time the Mercy Order presented their own proposals. They did not quite agree with the report and came up with a proposal for the future use of the college which included initial and in-service training of primary and post-primary teachers, degree-diploma courses in various areas and in the humanities, as well as adult and continuing education. Discussions were held on those proposals. There was the working party under the then Minister, Deputy Cooney, and the response to that was the Mercy proposals which were of a different nature. Following on that, discussions also took place on a number of options further proposed by the Department.
I became involved then and a further working group established whom I met several times in 1987. In March 1988 a further working group was established to consider the possibility of establishing a National College of Music and Dramatic Arts on the Carysfort campus. The then President of the College, Sr. Regina, served on that working group. My colleague, Deputy Liam Fitzgerald, who was then chairman of the City of Dublin VEC, was also chairman of that working group. Unfortunately, for various reasons which I do not propose to detail here, none of those efforts led to a satisfactory conclusion in relation to securing the continued use of Carysfort for educational purposes. Discussions were also held with the authorities of the Mercy Order on the possible use of the premises for third level educational purposes approved by the State.
I want it noted that I was somewhat surprised to find the entire property advertised for sale on 21 June since, so far as I am concerned, discussions on this latter option were ongoing at the time. In this regard I feel I must point out that, in order to show my good faith in efforts to secure an alternative educational use for the premises, I gave a commitment to make payments for the care and upkeep of the premises up to 30 April 1989, even though the final student groups had graduated in 1988.
Much has been talked about the question of the security of the State's investment in the college. I dealt with that in a reply to Deputies Barnes and Gilmore, so it is a matter of public record. I just wish to reiterate that I was interested, and remain so, in securing the continued use of the Carysfort premises for educational purposes because it is such a fine facility and also in view of the State's investment in it.
I must make the following matter clear. I would be talking about using the premises with whatever element of the site would be considered appropriate. This would, of course, in no way preclude the authorities of the Mercy Order selling off a substantial portion of the associated land which they own. I cannot prevent them from selling what they own. We live in a country where one is allowed to have private property and to sell it if so desired. With this in mind, I shall make every endeavour to reopen discussions with the authorities of the Mercy Order in the matter.
There are several interwoven strands in this matter, but two main concerns. The first is the actual building and the surrounding area of land which would be considered appropriate for the future use of that building as an educational establishment. There is then the wider community matter to which Deputy Sean Barrett referred, and other Deputies also. The ownership of that land is with the Mercy Order of nuns. On my behalf as Minister for Education, I bear in mind the long tradition which the Mercy Order have in education, not just in this century but in the previous century also, and their commitment and care to the cause of education. We never put a price tag on that and many in the Order long ago have worked under very difficult circumstances. Many of the fine educators and the young people who come from the primary schools owe their place in life, particularly in much worse times than now, to the dedication and care, commitment and financial resources of the Mercy Order through this college, where the young teachers were trained. That is my own personal opinion and I want to put it on record.
To conclude the debate, the discussions were ongoing when the advertisement referred to appeared in the newspaper. We read that the sale could fetch £20 million — I am very careful to say that that is what we read in the papers. One does not know what offers would be made. The point raised by Deputy Barrett is, of course, relevant, that down the road one might purchase premises and build colleges and so forth. One wonders what other sphere of education would have to suffer if that sum put on the whole property were found to purchase it, some of which seems to be the concern of the community and of the residents in the area. That is a separate issue.
The first issue is the building and the land on which it immediately stands and the other is the wider issue of the use of the landscape and beautiful grounds involved there. I certainly shall continue to bear the whole issue in mind and will now endeavour to reopen discussions between the senior officials in my Department and the Mercy Order, bearing in mind that the several proposals, reports and papers which were produced always appeared not to find full favour on one side. One can only conclude that a long-term view was being taken.
Would the Minister agree before the closing date to meet Deputies of the constituency?
Certainly I shall, to bring the Deputies of the area up to date with the current state of play.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.50 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 October 1989.