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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 2 Nov 1989

Vol. 392 No. 5

Bord Glas Bill, 1989: Second Stage.

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

The purpose of the Bill is to establish An Bord Glas as an independent statutory body. The Government believe that the much needed development of our horticultural industry can be achieved only if responsibility for the development is put in the hands of a body with specific overall responsibility to carry out the task. It is clear, however, that An Bord Glas on their own cannot achieve the necessary developments. They must work with other Government agencies such as Teagasc who have responsibility for advice, research and education, Córas Tráchtála in regard to export development, the IDA, SFADCo and Údarás na Gaeltachta as regards aid for industrial development within horticulture. An Bord Glas must also, of course, maintain close contact with the Department of Agriculture and Food and with developments within the European Community.

In addition to those bodies there are, moreover, the producers who are a most important element in the development process and the wholesale and retail merchants who have a very important part to play, both in their contacts, direct or indirect, with producers and in the considerable influence which they have on public reaction and perceptions.

Finally, there are what in the past might have been called the Irish housewives — I am a little hesitant in using that term today — but what I have in mind are the people who daily or weekly buy their requirements in fruit and vegetables. As regards these latter, whatever name we call them, I am quite confident that Irish purchasers are more than willing to support Irish horticultural produce provided they are offered products which are of good quality and well presented and represent value for money. It will, therefore, be a key function of An Bord Glas to achieve that objective.

I am by no means putting myself forward as an expert on diet but there is general agreement that our people would be all the better for eating substantially increased quantities of fruit and vegetables. We hear a lot about the damage which people may do to their health from an unbalanced diet or quite simply eating the wrong foods. No doubt there is often an element of propaganda involved when particular foods are either being castigated or praised but fruit and vegetables would come into any recommended list of healthy eating.

I was recently looking at figures published by the World Health Organisation on the extent to which people in various countries die prematurely from coronary heart disease. Ireland, along with some of our nearest neighbours, is very high on the list. However, France — a country noted for its dedicated gastronomes — is very low on the list. I wonder why. I have heard it suggested that it is perhaps because the French consume more wine than we do. That I think is hardly the answer. Whatever the explanation, I think it is noteworthy that the French, as well as being good eaters, are also high consumers of fruit and vegetables, and I have no doubt that this does them a lot of good.

I do not think there will be any great argument as regards the need for future development of our horticultural industry. That industry has shown some improvement in recent years but to enable it to develop better and faster has long been the concern of successive Governments even before our accession to the European Community but obviously with increasing concern since accession. We need An Bord Glas as a co-ordinator and focal point to bring together all the various elements which make up Irish horticulture so that the necessary development can be more quickly brought about.

As Deputies will know, An Bord Glas were set up on an interim, non-statutory basis in April 1987. The chief task which the board set themselves was to carry out a detailed study of the various sectors of the Irish horticultural industry so as to find out where the weaknesses were and to decide on the best means of improvement. The board set up seven different teams for the various horticultural commodities. Each team was made up of experts in the business of producing or marketing horticultural products, people with scientific and other specialised knowledge and also people from the State and semi-State sectors. As a result of the deliberations of these experts, the board were presented with a very large volume of diagnoses of the weaknesses of the industry and prescriptions for remedying those weaknesses. Last November the board, having gone into all the various findings and recommendations, produced a five-year development plan for horticulture. This is a most important document because it sets out what can be achieved if the right methods are followed and if everybody concerned plays their part.

The Bord Glas development plan foresees that, over a five-year period, we could increase very substantially the quantities we produce of our total requirements of fruit and vegetables. The board estimate that the value of that increased production for home requirements could be as high as £31 million. I would like to give just a few other statistics. We supply on average about 45 per cent of our home requirements. An Bord Glas see that figure being increased to 60 per cent. That increase is the maximum achieveable because considerable quantities of what we need are products which cannot be produced in the Irish climate. There is also the problem of seasonality, that is, at certain times of the year growing conditions are not suitable for certain products, particularly field vegetables. As well as the £31 million which could be gained by increasing home production, the board also see that there are possibilities for increasing exports over the five-year development period to reach a total yearly value of £27 million. All this has the potential to create 1,750 full time new jobs and 1,500 part time new jobs. At this point I should say that these figures exclude the seed-potato sector which the board examined separately and which will be the subject of a separate development programme to be published shortly.

The main problem which An Bord Glas in their inquiries found with Irish horticulture nowadays is that marketing is weak. What is meant by marketing? The first essential is that the producer should embark on a plan for the production of a particular crop only after he has clearly established where, how and when he will sell it. At the present time about 60 per cent of the total sales of fruit and vegetables in this country are carried out through supermarket groups. Already, the supermarkets have good contacts with selected growers. This system could be extended and, in local areas, producers could for example look at independent retail outlets who would be prepared to do business provided certain essentials such as certainty of delivery, quality and presentation are met. It is, of course, difficult for an individual producer to give guarantees as regards supply. For that reason producers must join producer groups. There are a few such groups already in operation in the country, but they need more members. There is very substantial aid available through a European Community scheme to enable producer groups to establish themselves. One of the main tasks of An Bord Glas will be to encourage growers to join producer groups. I would like to repeat what I have frequently said to producers — that anybody who is thinking of developing a worthwhile business as a horticultural producer must think very seriously about joining a producer group.

I would now like to talk for a little while about specific crops. I will begin with the mushroom sector which has been remarkably successful and is going through a period of continuing expansion. The mushroom industry is significant, not only because of its continuing successful growth, but also very much because the great bulk of its output is sold on the export market. The present yearly output of the industry is valued at some £24 million and the expectation is that in 1992 this figure will be of the order of £50 million worth. The industry is a striking example of very close co-ordination between production, preparation for market and marketing. Very significant investment has been made by private enterprise aided by the State and with very considerable help from the agricultural research and advisory services. The industry is, however, working in a very competitive market. There has to be constant attention to top quality and everything else that goes with good marketing. Because of these factors and the very high investment needed at all levels from production right through to marketing, very careful thought has to be given to how the industry expands. This is an area which An Bord Glas has been very conscious of and has been continuously monitoring in close consultation with all the other interests involved. The board will continue to be closely involved in this area and Deputies will note that the board are being given power of consultation in regard to State investment under section 9 of the Bill.

Another sector which I would like to talk about is what is known as hardy nursery stock and amenity horticulture. This sector embraces the business of producing small trees, shrubs, and plants for use by private people in their gardens and by private authorities for the improvement of the appearance of public places, parks, gardens and the area surrounding buildings. Of growing importance also is the business of planting trees and shrubs along motorways. One point which, I am sure, the House is well aware of is that this country, compared with other countries in Western Europe, has a remarkable climatic advantage in regard to the growing of trees and shrubs. The hardy nursery stock sector is making progress here and has, for some time now, been endeavouring to establish itself in a strong position on the British market where there is great scope for this business. Again, as in the case of fruit and vegetables, marketing is extremely important as is close co-ordination between producers. Supplies needed by public authorities or large private garden centres can be very substantial and the products of more than one producer could be called upon to meet an order quickly and to specifications. There is great scope for the hardy nursery stock sector and I am glad to be able to tell the House that An Bord Glas, together with Córas Tráchtála, IDA and a number of people in that sector, have already made the first necessary steps towards a more co-ordinated and developed approach to export markets. For the moment, concentration is mainly on the British market, but of course the sector will be looking beyond the English Channel even perhaps, I hope, before 1992. Indeed, at the risk of being accused of being too ambitious — and I do not think in connection with horticulture that over-ambition is a fault once it is guided by planning and attention to all the aspects of good marketing — I would look beyond the shores of Europe. I say this because of the very significant part which Ireland will be playing in the Garden Festival in Tokyo. This festival is to be opened in April 1990 and there is, of course, an Irish garden already being prepared. The benefits of that particular activity will, I hope, extend far beyond the horticultural sector but I think that it is appropriate that I should mention it here.

Having talked about the great success of mushrooms and the hope for developments of hardy nursery stock and amenity horticulture, I now come to the product about which, I regret to say, I cannot speak of such great success. I am talking about the ware-potato sector. While we have had undoubtedly some improvements in this area in recent years we still have a long way to go. Potatoes can be a risky crop. From year to year there can be very significant fluctuations in price, and producers can suffer. We saw examples of this in 1988 when there were prices which at times did not cover the producers' production costs. This year the situation has improved for producers. There is no reason why we in this country should not be able to supply almost completely and fully all our needs of good quality potatoes. Unfortunately, in the past there have been very high imports of potatoes, although again this situation has improved recently. The potato sector is the most disorganised of all the sectors I have to deal with and I place it as the top priority of An Bord Glas in regard to trying to make improvements. Improvements can be made. Again it is a question of good marketing and co-ordination between producers. Potato producers, of course, realise that no longer can there be let or hindrance — except on disease grounds — to imports of potatoes from other parts of the European Community and, as we all know, under the Community agreement with Cyprus, that country supplies at certain times of the year considerable quantities of potatoes to the market. But there is no reason we should not be able to produce almost all our requirements of potatoes with reasonable returns to producers and reasonable prices to consumers. Quality and presentation are all important. I think that most Irish people shopping for their weekly supplies will be more critical of the potatoes presented to them than of any other vegetables or fruit on display. All I have already said about marketing applies with as much force to potatoes — indeed more so — as to any other product. What I said about producer groups certainly applies.

In the past year, indeed, the European Commission has at our request extended the producer group regulation to Ireland for potatoes. Accordingly, similar financial advantages as for producer groups for other vegetables now apply to potatoes. Already, An Bord Glas have been very actively in contact with the IFA about what is to be done about this product. The IFA are more than willing to play their part and arrangements are being made between An Bord Glas and the Irish Farmers' Association to appoint a potato marketing co-ordinator. It has to be said that there are a number of excellent producers in the potato business, but there is great room for improvement. It would be a pity if that improvement were not made. An Bord Glas will be striving earnestly to ensure that it will be made.

I am also very much concerned about the development of our seed potato industry which unfortunately has had, for some years now, a continuously declining performance in the export sector. As I said earlier, An Bord Glas examined this sector separately to see what is the best way to restore the industry to its performance of some years back and I look forward to receiving this report shortly. It is important, not only for the export business, that we continue to have a growing output of seed potatoes — but that we should also have of course a continuing supply of high quality seed for home requirements.

I would like, before completing my comments on individual product sectors, to deal with the effect on the glasshouse sector of our entry to the European Community. The effect has been greatly increased competition for that sector, especially in regard to tomatoes. The difficulties of this sector were of course compounded by the energy crises of the seventies. In recent years there has been an improvement but the great part of the industry in those years had found itself with glasshouses which were very old, in poor condition and no longer suitable for modern competitive production conditions.

A decade ago a yield of 200 tonnes per hectare from an early heated tomato crop was acceptable and profitable. To survive nowadays and looking forward into the nineties a yield in excess of 350 tonnes per hectare is needed. These yields are being obtained by some growers. They have been brought about by growers examining the latest technology within the European Community, modifying with the help of Teagasc and then making the necessary investments in their holdings. However, it was urgently necessary to stimulate substantial additional investment. Accordingly, on the basis of a recommendation in the Bord Glas five year development plan, I was glad to be able to announce in July last that I had got approval from the Government and from the EC Commission for a special new scheme of capital grants and a substantial improvement in existing grants under the farm improvement programme to modernise and upgrade existing glasshouses and build additional glasshouses. Considerable investment is needed. I am talking about a figure of about £11 million, with State grants of £3 million over five years. As a result there will be extra production of 6,500 tonnes of tomatoes. To meet the competition of other Community suppliers, these new and modernised glasshouses together with — and I make no apologies for repeating it — good marketing are needed. Indeed, in the glasshouse scheme which I introduced in July, grants will be given only where the grower can show that he already has a properly developed marketing system or that he will implement one.

I will not deal further with individual products, but An Bord Glas, in addition to doing the very important job of producing their development programme, have also been involved in a wide range of day to day and seasonal activities in a large number of horticultural sectors. As examples of this involvement I mention very briefly the soft fruit sector — where there are prospects for further development — the apples sector — where I would like to see an increase in production and where some very welcome new investment has already been made — and the onion sector — where there are prospects for development. In both apples and onions, we are far too dependent on imports and I believe that there are possibilities for a great improvement.

Before coming to the provisions of the Bill I would like to refer to what the position will be in regard to the very important matter of controls for plant health purposes in the Single European Market.

On the plant health side, the future trend will be towards freer and more standardised controls between member states, with the major responsibility being placed on the exporting member state to ensure freedom from pests and diseases, and a diminishing right for the receiving member state to make check inspections at import. As you know, Ireland, because of its island location and strict plant health controls over many years, has succeeded in remaining free from many serious pests and diseases which occur in parts of continental Europe. Examples are the Colorado beetle, potato ring rot disease and various viral and other diseases and pests of horticultural crops. In the negotiations on the new régime which is intended to be in place by 1992, it will be our policy to preserve safeguards against the more serious organisms and to uphold the traditional high health status of our crops. We are fully committed to the completion of the internal market but not on the basis of disseminating disease. However, it is clear that a greater degree of responsibility will also fall on producers and growers, particularly when buying in planting material from abroad, to ensure that they are dealing with reputable firms which can guarantee the quality and disease free status of the plants. Protecting our high health status is not simply the responsibility of the Government or the Department.

Another feature of the new system will be the elimination of phytosanitary certificates in trade between EC countries and their replacement by a system of plant passports. The principle of the system is that all plant material being produced for sale in any member state will be examined by the plant health authority of the country of production and, if it meets the standard, it will be issued with a plant passport. This will enable the plants to be sold on the home or export markets without further formality at the time of export.

The details of this system have not yet been finalised in Brussels — there is much negotiation yet to be done — but it is clear that growers, advisers and the Department will have to work closely together to ensure that all material produced is up to standard. It will probably mean the registration of growers, particularly in the nursery stock section of horticulture, so that controls and growing season inspections can be carried out as required with a view to controlling the plant passport system.

I emphasise that close co-operation is essential because, not alone are we trying to ensure against the introduction of diseases and pests of which we are at present free, but we are equally responsible for maintaining the traditional high standard health and quality of Irish exports which are the cornerstone of successful development and expansion. As soon as the various aspects of the new system are agreed in Brussels there will be full consultation between the Department and the various commercial interests so that the new arrangements can be introduced smoothly and efficiently.

I will now come to the provisions of the Bill before the House. I would like to refer to a few of the main sections. Before doing so I should also tell Deputies that, at one stage in the past year after the Bord Glas Development Plan had been published, the Government gave consideration to having An Bord Glas not as the now proposed independent statutory body but rather as a subsidiary company of Teagasc. There were very cogent arguments in favour of having An Bord Glas as part of Teagasc but, unfortunately, they tended to militate against one clearly identified, over-riding need of Irish horticulture, that is, the need to set up a separate body which would act as a single and distinct focus for the development of the industry. Moreover, while Teagasc will concentrate primarily on research, training and advice in relation to agriculture as a whole, the work of An Bord Glas will be directed towards a range of activities which are set out in sections 4, 5, 8, 9 and 10 of the Bill.

At the same time An Bord Glas will have to operate very closely with Teagasc. In this connection I would like to refer in particular to section 8 of the Bill, which provides for a particular form of co-ordination and collaboration between the board and Teagasc. This is a very important provision. Indeed, it is already in operation because, over the past year, the chairman of the board, the chief executive of the board and I have been in very close contact with the chairman and director of Teagasc. The current interim board have the director of Teagasc as one of their members. In practice, the present board are in very close and constant communication with Teagasc at various levels. These day to day practical and sensible arrangements will continue in the future and will, of course, be essential for the effective operation of section 8.

I would also like to refer to section 9 of the Bill which gives An Bord Glas a specific responsibility in regard to both State investment in horticulture and the curricula for higher education in horticulture. This is a very significant provision because it gives An Bord Glas a necessary say in what money the State will, through its agencies, invest so as to ensure that such investment is in accord with the board's functions. Secondly, the board will have an opportunity of influencing higher education in horticulture and through this the formation of future leaders in the education, research, advisory and other sectors of the industry including, of course, the production sector.

Section 12 provides for a levy by the board on the sale of horticultural produce. When that levy will be brought into operation, I cannot say. Neither would it be sensible to try to make any forecast as to what the rate of levy will be. Those are matters in the first instance for An Bord Glas to discuss and propose. It will be noted that the section provides that different rates of levy may be prescribed in respect of different classes of persons liable to pay levy. It is also important to note that the Oireachtas will have an opportunity of approving of the necessary regulations under section 12 (7).

The explanatory memorandum accompanying the Bill sets out the various provisions and I therefore propose to confine my concluding comments to the more important remaining provisions. The primary purpose of the Bill is set out in section 3, that is, the establishment of An Bord Glas as a statutory body. Sections 4 and 5 set out the functions of the board. The keynote in these provisions is flexibility. The board are given powers to engage in a broad range of activities designed to secure comprehensive development of the horticultural sector. Section 6 entitles the Minister to attach new functions to the board so as to enable a change of course or corrective action in response to changing needs.

Section 19 authorises the Minister to make advances from the Exchequer to the board in order to enable them to perform their functions. In this context it is important to bear in mind that the board will not be totally dependent on the Exchequer for funds. Section 11 empowers them to charge for services and, as already mentioned, section 12 provides for the imposition of a levy. The staffing of the board and related matters are covered in sections 15 and 16. The remaining sections of the Bill are, generally speaking, fairly standard legislative provisions for a body of the nature proposed. In particular a number of the provisions are similar to those contained in the Act establishing Teagasc.

The Members of An Bord Glas will consist of a chairman and ten members appointed by the Minister for Agriculture and Food. Both chairman and members will hold office for a period of three years.

At this juncture I consider it most important to emphasise that the Bill is not protectionist. While we realise that Irish horticulture has had enormous problems since our accession to the European Communities, we must also recognise that we are members of the European Communities and we must face up to the fact that the horticultural produce of other member states and third countries which have agreements with the EC enjoy access to our markets. Our task, therefore, is not to fear imports but to confront, with resolve and optimism, the challenge they present in the excellence of their quality, presentation and uniformity. The bald truth is that we have a lot to learn from the horticultural sectors in other member states. They are, for example, stronger on organisation and marketing than we are. However I am convinced we can meet the challenge and that An Bord Glas will have a pivotal, catalytic role in ensuring that we do.

I commend the Bill to the House.

I take this opportunity to publicly congratulate the Minister and his two Ministers of State on their reappointment in the wake of the recent general election. I cannot express the wish that their terms in office will be long and happy but I hope that they will be fruitful terms.

This Bill falls within the area of responsibility of Deputy Kirk. As the Deputy represents a neighbouring constituency I am kept fully briefed of his work and his level of activity in the constituency. As the Fine Gael spokesperson on horticulture I assure the Minister that I will keep an eagle eye on his work in the industry nationally.

This Bill has dubious origins. It has not been demanded by the industry nor by the general public. We have had a horticultural industry in this country since the Stone Age and suddenly for no apparent reason in 1989 the industry is to be brought under the control of the State. This idea first saw the light of day, it appears, in a Fianna Fáil manifesto. It was the brainchild of some back-room public relations genius and like some public relations electoral gimmick it has an initial appeal, a superficial glossy attractiveness. However, when one studies the Bill in depth it becomes clear that it has major flaws and failings. Like all sorts of election gimmicks it should have had a shelf life only of the duration of the election campaign and it should then have been quietly abandoned.

Fine Gael have no hesitation in opposing the Bill tooth and nail. I earnestly urge Deputies from the right, left and centre to do the same on several major grounds of general principle. My first general objection to the Bill is that neither it nor An Bord Glas are necessary. It is only now being foisted upon us because of ill-thought out pre-election gimmicks. The Bill as drafted is a hotchpotch of 28 sections and an appendix which seems to have been culled from other Bills establishing other semi-State bodies in the past. This has been dragged together in a willy-nilly, jigsaw fashion. The sum of the parts does not add up to an acceptable coherent whole.

No doubt the Minister will say that the Bill has been more or less welcomed by the industry. I am well aware of the hard-and-soft sell that the Minister has been giving his proposals within the industry. I also took soundings throughout the industry so I am aware that the various sections within the industry are only now beginning to come to terms with the small print of the Bill and that they do not like what they are reading.

Although the Minister did not refer to it in his speech I believe that only in the past 24 hours he received some correspondence from the industry saying they cannot take a position on the Bill until certain matters are clarified by the Minister. Over a period of weeks representatives of the industry have been requesting meetings with the Minister to discuss important matters relating to the industry. They have urged immediate contact between the Minister, his Department and the various sections of the industry involved. Large numbers of people in the industry have not been contacted by the Minister or An Bord Glas about the proposals in this Bill. It is incredible that we are today making proposals to set up a board though the industry have not been contacted nor have they had any say as to the make up of the board.

My second major objection to the Bill is that it introduces another layer of bureaucracy into the horticultural industry. The State is now seeking to involve itself in an area of Irish life in which it has not previously been active, at a time when it cannot meet its traditional commitments in other areas in which it has been active and from which it is now disengaging at considerable cost to the Exchequer and the general public.

I fail to see how the Minister can engage in the recruitment required to staff and run this new empire at a time when other public servants elsewhere in the public service are being made redundant at enormous cost. There have been two and a half years of asking and paying people to leave the Civil Service.

The Bill seeks to create a ten-person board to run the industry. It is a typical Fianna Fáil response when they want to give an impression of doing something — to establish a review body, committee, commission, board or some other State or semi-State agency and then leave it to rot. We have seen this approach ad nauseam in Health and other Departments. I do not have to remind the Minister of those other Departments.

I do not doubt the bona fides of the present Minister with responsibility for horticulture or of the interim Bord Glas currently in existence. However, I am well aware that the real Bord Glas may bear no relationship whatsoever to the interim board, that its future executive powers will bear no relationship to its current advisory powers and that future Ministers with responsibility for horticulture may bear no relationship to the present incumbent. The board will have to acquire a new shiny headquarters, decked out in glass and brass, customary in the case of all new pyramids built as a result of decisions taken in this House, no doubt designer finished. No doubt they will produce nice glossy reports which will gather dust, as hundreds of others are doing. The Minister of the day will staff the board with his or her appointees. Eventually the board will end up as a ministerial plaything. We have seen a number of them over a period — a kind of expensive, executive toy, a ministerial vehicle designed to enhance the status of the Minister rather than the needs of the industry. I do not think the Minister had those objectives in mind. Certainly the provisions of the Bill leave much to be desired.

The Deputy could be a little more generous.

My third objection to the Bill is that it further fragments the overall agricultural industry already suffering from a severe, chronic dose of over-fragmentation. We must not forget that horticulture is an integral part of the agricultural industry. The hiving off of individual sections into isolation cells will be detrimental in two ways. First, it will allow other Government Departments, retailers and so on to engage in the tactic of divide and conquer. Governments can forever favour one section over another, as circumstances permit, so that the various parts can never become a coherent whole, strong, unified voice to pressurise Government into getting worthwhile things done for any part of the industry. It is also a game that can be played indefinitely. Ultimately, we can reach the farcical stage at which we may have a board for haymaking in a couple of years time, there being no other thought emanating from those smoke-filled rooms. There might even be a board for silage making. We are all aware of the implications of these types of willy-nilly proposals emanating from backrooms at times.

The second way in which such hiving off will be detrimental lies in the approach to the 1992 scenario with which we are faced — the big fruit co-operatives are not and will not be interested in single producers or single section purchasing. We must prepare for an era in which each truckload will deliver a multiplicity of products, meats, dairy products, fish and so on. Our approach to growing and marketing must become more and more integral rather than increasingly fragmented.

My fourth objection to the provisions of this Bill is that the functions of the proposed board will create an enormous amount of overlapping with existing agencies such as Teagasc, CTT, the Potato Marketing Board, just to mention those that spring to mind immediately. It would be my fear that such overlapping would negative, if not subvert, the excellent work already being undertaken by those agencies. There are at present no fewer than 16 different agencies involved in the business of promoting and selling Irish food and agricultural produce and it is quite incredible that this Government should wish to add a seventeenth. I am sure there are other proposals afoot that will bring the number to 20 before the end of next year.

The aims of the Bill can be met through such agencies as Teagasc and CTT. My concern would be that at future food fairs abroad there will be a clutter of Irish sectoral stands to represent agencies such as CBF, Bord Bainne, Bord Glas and so on with resultant overlapping of functions and the waste associated with such overlapping and fragmentation. I have information to the effect that in Cologne recently there were something in the region of 100 Irish representatives selling our products. It is time we rationalised our effort, getting the same people to sell the truck loads of products I mentioned earlier.

One of my most critical objections to the Bill lies in the fact that many provisions are excessive in several different ways. For example, they are excessive and draconian in the range of powers proposed for the board to enable them discharge their role. The provisions are also excessive in their range of statutory functions. Indeed they constitute a far cry from the advisory role of the interim Bord Glas. The provisions are excessive in that they afford the Minister carte blanche power to appoint and give undefined powers to certain unspecified officers whose role I suspect will be to conduct on-the-spot inspections of producers. Its provisions are excessive in that they impose levies on producers in order to fund the activities of the board controlled by the Minister. In other words, the producer gets all the stick and the Minister keeps the carrot. Its provisions are excessive also inasmuch as they introduce an undisclosed network of charges for services which will also go to the board. Equally, they are excessive in allowing the board to sue clients through the courts in pursuit of such levies or charges and have those found guilty of non-payment of levies liable to a fine of anything up to £1,000.

I have no coubt but that the Minister is creating a new class of criminal, the horticultural criminal, where none previously existed, with the spectacle of the law courts now being able to haunt anybody engaged in horticultural activity. I do not think anybody would like to be on the record as having been the person who went after the poor fellow down the road who had been producing on the half to one acre, who happened to be selling the product and who found, lo and behold, he was not within the law in doing what he had done for years even before the foundation of this State.

My next objection lies in the confusion and chaos at present being created in the Department of Agriculture and Food with the introduction of this Bill. At this point it is legitimate to ask: who is running the Department of Agriculture and Food? Is it the Minister of State present or the Minister for Agriculture and Food himself, Deputy O'Kennedy? It is ironic that the Minister of State has been given a new, expensive board at a time when his senior Minister is having boards under his control cut back to a point of paralysis. For example, Teagasc is being starved for cash. There has been no head of horticulture appointed to the board of Teagasc since its formation. If passed, this Bill will allow the senior Minister and his Department off the hook in terms of their overall responsibility, indeed answerability, for the industry as a whole. Bord Glas is being advanced at present as a showpiece exercise in order to obtain more money from the EC for the board and the industry, money that should have been coming here anyway. This lobbying function, and all the others listed, should be retained by the Department. Why do we want to duplicate that function having two people telephoning the same person in Brussels to ascertain the same information and results, which is what will be the function of this board?

My next objection to the Bill stems from the fact that it also allows the Department of Agriculture and Food off the hook in terms of financing. It appears that the senior Minister and his Government will renege on their duties and obligations to fund a significant portion of agricultural services, leaving them to be funded by general taxation.

The provisions of the Bill seek to introduce a network of charges, levies and fines, all of which will be paid by the industry irrespective of whether one runs a 1,000 acre horticultural enterprise or works with a wheelbarrow in Moore Street. If my reading of the provisions of the Bill is correct, they will render everybody liable to charges in some form or other. Equally, the introduction of such charges will mean that existing charges and income will be transferred from Teagasc to An Bord Glas. Furthermore, the Minister has given us no idea of the level of charges he will be creating, with the result that we are being asked to buy a pig in a poke. This House is being asked to support proposals for the setting up of a new board which will be given wideranging powers to bring in charges and we are not going to be told what the charges are until such time as the board get their hands on the powers. I do not think, in 1989, with the experience we have had in this House from introductions of other proposed charges and so on over the years, that this is the right way to proceed.

The final irony is that producers are being asked to fund the board's activity whether they like it or not, thereby cutting off a large rod with which to beat themselves. I cannot see any of the producers with whom I am in contact rushing out to buy a package whereby they will get all the pain while the Minister and the board get all the pleasure. The Minister should think about that.

Before I comment on the individual sections of the Bill, examine some paragraphs in order to seek further clarification, point out objectionable implications or suggest improvements in the crazy event of the Bill being passed, I would make an urgent plea to the Minister. I am convinced that the Bill's objectives to increase output, recover domestic market share, create jobs and maximise export potential are not going to be met through this proposed format. There is grave danger of decreased output, a diminishing market share, fewer jobs and less exports as a result of the extra burdens, bureaucracy, charges, levies and penalties that the industry will have to carry as a direct result of this Bill. I would urge the Minister to return to the drawing board, to take on board the objections that I and no doubt other Members of this House will put forward and to start afresh. I would urge him to proceed along the following lines and if he does he will receive the total support of this party.

We would accept an advisory board without executive functions and therefore without the need for charges and levies. We favour the retention within the Department of Agriculture, on an in-house basis, of the board's proposed functions. Towards that end, we would wish to see agencies such as Teagasc strengthened and the agricultural sector — for instance the industry in Kinsealy — reinforced. That industry has been nearly closed. If this is not your responsibility then it is your head man who has nearly closed it.

The Minister for Agriculture and Food.

We recognise that there are shortcomings within the industry due to the chronic past under-funding. We accept that the industry must meet its obligations and put its own house in order. Towards that end, we would support a statutory contribution from the industry on a section by section basis towards a horticultural board which would be controlled by the industry. We would wish to see such moneys reinvested on a sectional basis on research, development and marketing along the same lines as the dairy levy which was originally administered by An Foras Talúntais. It would be in the best interests of the industry for the Government to encourage, assist and facilitate such a development rather than impose a superstructure.

There is a committee involved in spending the money that has been collected for a large number of years in one of our best industries which is recognised worldwide, the dairy industry. The people who pay that levy have a say in where the money goes. I cannot understand how we can propose a board with people appointed by the Minister without the industry who pays the piper having any say in the matter. The industry can blame those people if they are not doing the job properly. We are missing a golden opportunity in this regard. The Minister present and the Minister for Agriculture and Food only have to look at events in the past to recognise the important way the different sections who are in control of their own destiny developed and improved over the years.

I would like now to deal with some of the individual sections of the Bill which require comment, clarification, answer or amendment. Section 1 deals with education including training. Does this mean that the functions of education and training are being removed from Teagasc? Will An Bord Glas assume the functions of the advisory service and the Department of Agriculture and Food personnel who are involved at present in the area that the Minister is creating under this board? Will the board assume the functions of the Potato Marketing Board?

Section 4 relates to the general functions of the board. Would the Minister agree that these functions could be adequately provided by CTT, Teagasc, the Potato Marketing Board, the Irish Goods Council and other organisations which have been starved of funds by the Government in the recent past? If these bodies had received sufficient funds over the period of years since the present Minister for Agriculture and Food came to office there would be no need to improve marketing because these bodies would have been well capable of doing the job.

In regard to section 4 (2) would the Minister agree that the granting to the board of all such powers as are necessary or expedient for the purposes of its functions is the essence of totalitarianism? This is going back to the position where the big stick will be wielded at the industry and if they do not do certain things they will suffer the consequences in the courts. Does the granting of such powers confer on the board the authority to close down other like-minded agencies which stand in their way? In regard to section 5 (c) would the Minister agree that many of the board's activities under this subsection will be carried out in opposition to and in competition with other promotional agencies? What, for instance, will be the future role of Dunsany Food Centre where Eolas and Teagasc are jointly researching new food products?

Is the Minister telling me and this House that when this board is set up, with its executive powers, the chief executive will not be in a position to develop another agency to ensure that they can carry out all the work in research and development under their own auspices? There is nothing in this Bill to say that they must continue to use the present food centre which is only 25 months old. There is nothing to stop the board from developing a whole new structure in the area of food research and development. The chief executive can decide to carry out certain works and set up a new structure to look after all these areas. Certainly, in so far as changes are concerned, that is one area that must be clarified and specific decisions made by this House in relation to the functions.

In regard to section 5 (f), why is it necessary for the board to directly establish the journalistic empire required by this subsection? Why is provision not made for work on commission or for contract work? This is another example of where the board can decide — it is easy for the Minister to say they will not — to set up a whole journalist empire regarding their development and at an enormous cost. We know at the end of the day, as stated in the latter part of the Minister's speech, who is going to pay the piper. I believe there will be an overlapping of responsibilities given all the other agencies which do this work.

In relation to section 6, what properties does the Minister envisage being transferred to the board? Are we talking about the transfer of the agricultural colleges owned by the Department of Agriculture and Food to the board? What other properties is the Minister talking about?

Perhaps the Deputy would move the Adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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