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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 14 Nov 1989

Vol. 393 No. 1

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take Nos. 3, 4, 5, 9, 10 and 11. It is also proposed that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. today and business shall be interrupted at 10 p.m. It is further proposed that Nos. 3 and 4 shall be taken without debate. It is further proposed that the debate on No. 5 shall not exceed 30 minutes and the speech of any Member called on shall not exceed five minutes.

It is further proposed that the proceedings on the Committee and remaining Stages of No. 9, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m. tomorrow by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall in relation to amendments include only amendments set down by the Minister for Finance. It is further proposed that statements on Cambodia shall be made at 8.30 p.m. and that notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders the following arrangements shall apply — the speech of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and of any other Member called on shall not exceed 15 minutes, the Minister shall be called on to make his concluding statement which shall not exceed five minutes and the order shall not resume. It is proposed that Private Members Business shall be No. 26.

Is the proposal for the late sitting today agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 5 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9 agreed?

No. In respect of the Trustee Savings Bank Bill the Whips met last Thursday and in the light of information then available we agreed to a proposal that the time should be ordered as set out in the Order Paper. Since then the Minister, Fine Gael. The Workers' Party and the Labour Party have all tabled substantial amendments to this Bill, the core issues of which are dealt with in the latter sections. They are the sections designed to facilitate the privatisation of the Trustee Savings Bank. There is extreme concern that there is not adequate time now available even to discuss the propositions of the Minister let alone those of the Opposition.

It is unusual to hear a speech at this stage.

It is our view that the time allocated in the light of amendments that have all appeared since the Whips' meeting last Thursday is grossly inadequate for this important legislation. We urge that time other than that suggested on the Order Paper be provided.

I support the remarks of Deputy McCartan and point out to the Taoiseach and to the House that this most important Bill, involving something like £1,000 million worth of public assets in the Trustee Savings Banks, will enable the Minister, on his own account, to privatise them. The Bill has 65 sections to which are tabled 81 amendments and it is proposed to allow some two hours to deal with it——

The Deputy has made his point. We cannot debate the matter now.

The Trustee Savings Banks have soldiered on for decades. Why is there a sudden rush to get them privatised and away from the power and control of this House in the space of two short hours? That cannot be accepted. I am sure the Taoiseach would not wish that to happen. I am asking him to agree to substantial additional time being allowed to debate those 81 amendments and 65 sections of this most important Bill involving a vast amount of public assets.

I omitted to put to the House the question dealing with Nos. 3 and 4 that Nos. 3 and 4 shall be taken without debate. Is that agreed? Agreed.

May I put the question now with regard to dealing with item No. 9?

Is there no response? I would draw the attention of the House to the fact that we are not sitting at all on Friday this week and we could use next week. Will the Taoiseach indicate if there is any sense of co-operation coming from his side with regard to this important matter?

There is every attempt by the Government to be as co-operative and helpful as possible. As the Deputy knows, we have already agreed to take Cambodia, and provide special Government Time. These matters are normally dealt with by the Whips. I do not think it appropriate for me to overrule the Whips in the Dáil.

On a point of information——

(Interruptions.)

I made a special request to the Government Chief Whip as soon as it came to my knowledge that it was proposed to take this measure in two hours, and I pointed out that it was quite impossible in that time to deal with more than a very small number of these amendments and sections. I asked the Government Chief Whip to reverse this decision and to allow a more reasonable time. At that stage we did not even know how many amendments had been tabled. This is a most important matter — to enable the privatisation of what is in effect a State bank——

I have given the Deputies ample opportunity to ventilate their grievance on this matter.

——and to ask the House to go through all that in two hours after these banks have been in operation for decades does not make sense.

(Interruptions.)

By way of clarification, I would inform the House and the Taoiseach that a formal request was made by me as Labour Party Whip on Friday last week when it became clear that there was a volume of amendments to be tabled on this Bill. We often change agreements made on Thursday or Friday. It was done no later than last week when an emergency Bill was brought in. I would ask the Taoiseach, in the light of the norm in this regard, to reconsider the time allocation for this important legislation.

Could the vultures out there not wait for another week or two?

I am sorry. This is not a Committee Stage of the Bill. I have no option——

Before the Chair puts the question——

Please, Deputy McCartan.

Would the Taoiseach at least indicate that a Whips' meeting will be convened between now and the conclusion of the Stages to see if we can order the business in a better way?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I have no option but to put the question: "That the proposals for dealing with No. 9 be agreed."

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 72; Níl, 23.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Howlin and McCartan.

    Question declared carried.

    Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Aylward, Liam.Barrett, Michael. Burke, Raphael P.Calleary, Seán.Callely, Ivor.Clohessy, Peadar.Collins, Gerard.Connolly, Ger.Coughlan, Mary Theresa.Cowen, Brian.Cullimore, Séamus.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Noel.Dennehy, John.de Valera, Síle.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Flood, Chris.Gallagher, Pat the Cope.Haughey, Charles J.Hillery, Brian.Hilliard, Colm.Hogan, Philip.Hyland, Liam.Jacob, Joe.Kelly, Laurence.Kenneally, Brendan.Kirk, Séamus.Kitt, Michael P.Kitt, Tom.Lawlor, Liam.Lenihan, Brian.

    Brady, Gerard.Brady, Vincent.Brennan, Mattie.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Leonard, Jimmy.Leyden, Terry.Lyons, Denis.Martin, Micheál.McDaid, Jim.McEllistrim, Tom.Molloy, Robert.Morley, P.J.Nolan, M.J.Noonan, Michael J.(Limerick West).O'Connell, John.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donoghue, John.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Leary, John.O'Malley, Desmond J.O'Rourke, Mary.O'Toole, Martin Joe.Power, Seán.Quill, Máirín.Roche, Dick.Smith, Michael.Stafford, John.Treacy, Noel.Tunney, Jim.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Wilson, John P.Woods, Michael.

    Bell, Michael.Byrne, Eric.Ferris, Michael.Garland, Roger.Gilmore, Eamon.Gregory, Tony.Higgins, Michael D.Howlin, Brendan.Kavanagh, Liam.Kemmy, Jim.McCartan, Pat.

    Mac Giolla, Tomás.Moynihan, Michael.O'Shea, Brian.O'Sullivan, Gerry.O'Sullivan, Toddy.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Ryan, Seán.Sherlock, Joe.Spring, Dick.Stagg, Emmet.Taylor, Mervyn.

    The last question to be put on the Order of Business is with regard to the proposal for dealing with statements on Cambodia. Are the proposals for dealing with the statements on Cambodia agreed? Agreed.

    On the Order of Business, there is a request that I would like to make of the Taoiseach. We understand that President Mitterrand has arranged a meeting of European Community Heads of State on Saturday next to discuss the emerging situation in East Germany and perhaps other issues. Will the Taoiseach consider making time available in this House between now and Thursday evening so that, in advance of his attendance at that meeting, this House could debate the issue and give the Taoiseach our views, because I am sure that all of us would want to make statements on the developments we see in Eastern Europe. An hour and a half or two hours should suffice to give this House an opportunity to make its views known.

    I do not think it would be very advisable or helpful. The agenda of the talks is not yet decided or known and I do not think there is very much I could say to the House about the talks at this stage.

    The Taoiseach could always listen.

    However, I am prepared to report back to the House afterwards.

    I would urge on the Taoiseach the wisdom and the benefit to himself of hearing what the views of his colleagues in this House are on this issue so that he will not go there entirely unprepared.

    I have facilitated the Deputies and this may not give rise to a debate.

    Can we expect either the Taoiseach or the Minister for Industry and Commerce to make a statement in relation to the concealing of the increases which were granted to distribution and retailing margins on petrol at the start of this month? Can we expect a statement to be made to the House?

    I suggest the Deputy should deal with that in the ordinary way.

    Can I then raise the matter on the Adjournment?

    I will communicate with the Deputy.

    My group gave you notice, Sir, in relation to three matters which we consider of urgent public importance, the untimely death of a young man in Mountjoy Jail earlier today, the freeing from Galway Court of a young girl aged 13 whom the justice considered to have been thrown back in the face of the court, and the failure of the Minister responsible to deal with the rod licence dispute last Friday.

    I have conveyed my decisions to the Deputies concerned in respect of these matters and they may not be raised now. My decisions in such matters may not be challenged in the House in this fashion.

    I fully accept that, and I raised it merely to request that the interpretation of the ruling would be a matter he would bring before the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to be discussed.

    That is a matter for the Deputy if he so desires.

    In view of the fact that you have ruled in the way you have——

    The Deputy has access to that committee. If he feels strongly on the matter that is the avenue he should pursue.

    This matter should be investigated on an all-party basis.

    I have advised the Deputy. The Deputy knows the procedure in respect of such matters.

    It appears that the concept of urgent public importance does not impinge on the work of this House.

    In the first instance let me say that I am grateful for the opportunity that has been provided for the making of statements on Kampuchea this evening. Has the Taoiseach come to a conclusion concerning the need for the establishment of a Foreign Affairs Committee?

    Might I ask if the Taoiseach is still considering the establishment of such a committee or has he decided against its formation?

    I am still considering it.

    I have had to accept the ruling that my Private Notice Question in relation to the unfortunate death of a prisoner in Mountjoy is out of order but I will be pursuing that matter. On the Order of Business, I want to ask the Taoiseach whether it is intended to introduce legislation following the High Court decision last Thursday in the case of the young girl from Galway with the 40 convictions for whom no place of detention can be found in the State. Is it now intended to introduce legislation to deal with this situation?

    There are other ways and means of dealing with such matters and the Deputy knows that.

    I am raising a question of legislation on the Order of Business. Juvenile justice is not being done.

    No such legislation has been promised.

    It is about time it was promised.

    A Criminal Justice Bill has been promised for at least seven years.

    Could I ask the Minister for Industry and Commerce when the Copyright Bill might be before the Dáil? Perhaps he could also let us know if the final report to be prepared by the Director of Consumer Affairs on petrol prices will be available?

    I do not think that there is any Copyright Bill promised. There was one on the Order Paper of the last Dáil but I do not think it has been brought forward.

    Minister Collins promised it last November.

    Last November would have been in the previous Dáil. There has not been one brought forward, as far as I am aware, in the present Dáil. So far as the final report of the Fair Trade Commission is concerned, the commission have told me that they hope to deliver it before Christmas.

    On the Order of Business, in respect of legislation, when will the Government be laying before the House the regulations to give effect to the EC Environment Directive on EIA, and when is it proposed to resume work on the Committee Stage of the Building Control Bill?

    The Building Control Bill is a matter for the Whips. I will communicate with the Deputy about the EC Directive.

    As a Deputy from the Border region, could I ask the Taoiseach how he can reconcile his decision or his Government's decision to increase the price of petrol by 2p per gallon at the same time petrol prices in Northern Ireland are coming down by 4p per gallon? It is creating a further differential between Northern Ireland and the Republic, with drastic consequences for petrol retailers and small shopkeepers in the Border region.

    I thought the Deputy had a legitimate question on the Order of Business. Clearly he has not. I am calling Deputy Mac Giolla.

    This Government saved the Border region.

    (Interruptions.)

    I ask your permission, Sir, to raise on the Adjournment the shameful and dishonourable way in which three of our Governments, the Fine Gael-Labour Coalition, the Fianna Fáil Government and the current Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats Coalition, have treated the employees of Irish Shipping despite the fact that the present Minister for the Marine called for six weeks' per year of service compensation for them. They have not received it.

    I will communicate with the Deputy.

    I would like to ask the Minister for Social Welfare what progress he has made with the preparation of the Occupational Pensions Bill and whether he proposes to include provisions to meet the Directive on Equal Treatment within that legislation. Will we have it published this session?

    It will be before the Government shortly.

    I had to accept your ruling, Sir, on my private notice question in relation to the rod licence dispute, but on the Order of Business let me ask the Taoiseach if arrangements are being made to renew negotiations at an early date.

    The Deputy should put down a Dáil question.

    If that is the Taoiseach's attitude, I wish to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    I will communicate with the Deputy.

    When do the Government intend to lay before the House the legislation providing pensions for ex-employees of the Irish Hospitals Sweepstakes? That legislation was promised in a written reply.

    Perhaps the Deputy will put down a question or, indeed, a motion in connection with the matter.

    That has already been done. The Minister for Health indicated that the Government were preparing legislation.

    Is this legislation promised?

    I do not recall it being promised but I will check.

    It is beginning to sound like a number of other promises.

    I seek your permission to raise on the Adjournment the question of numerous miracles which occurred on the Lucan by-pass overnight. Despite the works there, the fog and the steep drop on one side on to the new road below, no lives were lost and, as far as I know, no one was seriously injured. That was a miracle. I would like to raise this matter to ensure that a tragedy does not occur later today or overnight.

    I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

    I wish to raise on the Adjournment the circumstances surrounding the release from court in Galway yesterday of a young girl of 13 years for whom the justice had sought some help from Government.

    I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning that matter.

    Let me ask the Taoiseach to indicate to the House now for a certainty when the Book of Estimates will be published.

    For about the tenth time, can I raise on the Adjournment the removal of Mr. Christy Walsh, Acting CEO of the Southern Health Board, from his post and the involvement of the Taoiseach in his removal?

    On the Order of Business, and in respect of the industrial dispute that brought the proceedings of this House into some difficulty last week, can you indicate if an arbitrator has been appointed to mediate in this dispute? If so, can you give his or her name?

    If the Deputy had been good enough to give me notice of this question I would have been happy to give him a deliberate reply now. I will communicate with him as to the up to date position.

    I would like to raise on the Adjournment the discrepancy in petrol prices between Ireland and other countries in the EC.

    I will communicate with the Deputy.

    For your information, Sir, the floodwaters in the west have now subsided, I suppose doing a considerable amount of damage. I would like to raise the consequences of this on the Adjournment.

    I will communicate with the Deputy, and I am glad the floods have subsided.

    For your further information, let me tell you the flood waters between Ireland and the UK are still in existence, and I want to raise on the Adjournment the failure of this Government to provide support for the re-establishment of the Cork-Swansea car ferry.

    I will be in touch with the Deputy.

    (Interruptions.)

    I am sure you will give a couple of minutes to Mr. Walsh. I might want to get in on that.

    Having regard to the non-answers Deputy Shatter and I received at Question Time today concerning the planning scandal in Dublin, I ask your permission to raise this matter on the Adjournment.

    I will be in touch with the Deputy.

    I accept your ruling out of my private notice question on the rod licence issue. However, I will be putting forward a Private Members' Bill to get rid of the rod licence and I hope sincerely Fine Gael will support us in this.

    You are going a good way about getting support.

    (Limerick East): On the Adjournment I wish to raise the lack of accommodation for the post-primary school at Hospital, County Limerick.

    I will be in touch with the Deputy.

    On the fifth successive occasion, I ask you to allow me to raise on the Adjournment the deplorable condition of the county roads in Cavan. In making your decision, let me point out that Cavan County Council yesterday deferred striking their rate as a pro-test——

    I will communicate with the Deputy on the matter.

    Will you perhaps take into account the fact that the last Coalition in a full year gave £8 million for county roads, the next year we gave £15 million and we now have a £150 million three year plan for county roads?

    Give me time and I will debate it.

    (Interruptions.)

    The rate support grant is down £3.8 million this year.

    I would like to raise on the Adjournment the crisis concerning discipline at schools——

    (Interruptions.)

    You are a very opportunistic young man, Andrew.

    I am glad I got a response. At least——

    Deputy Boylan must not persist in causing such disorder.

    I am delighted I got a response. At least the Government are waking up.

    If this continues I will have to take some action.

    You should throw out the Taoiseach. He is getting disorderly.

    I wish to raise on the Adjournment the serious crisis looming in schools because of a recent court case where discipline has been a priority.

    I will communicate with the Deputy.

    I would like to raise on the Adjournment the implications for people of limited income who are unable to move over to the more expensive coalite in our smoke control zones and the absence of any grant assistance for people in the Crumlin area A control zone who are anxious to transfer to non-bituminous fuels and alternative applicances.

    I will be in touch with the Deputy.

    In view of the Taoiseach's remarks a few minutes ago, will he now be so good as to tell me and the House when he is going to give national primary road mileage to the constituency of south-west Cork?

    (Interruptions.)

    I should have called Deputy Paul Connaughton.

    Have we any answer?

    I should have called Deputy Connaughton who submitted a question to me under Standing Order 30.

    On Thursday, 26 October 1989, during Question Time the Minister for Agriculture and Food in reply to my Parliamentary Question No. 49 misled the House by indicating he was unable to provide details of the amount of EC funding which would be available to Irish agriculture up to 1993 for individual measures in advance of the conclusion of negotiations with the Commission on the Community Support Framework. However, the very next day——

    I am sorry, Deputy, you may not elaborate now.

    You do not know what I am talking about until——

    I do Deputy. The Deputy submitted his question——

    On 27 October the next day——

    The Deputy submitted his question to my office. I am conversant with the subject matter in question.

    A senior official in County Limerick at the university told us at a private session exactly what we were getting, £104 million less——

    I have considered the Deputy's request fully and I do not consider it is one covered by the Standing Order in question. I cannot, therefore, grant leave to move the motion.

    Why did the Minister not come out openly and honestly and answer my question?

    The Deputy must pursue this in another way.

    It is important——

    I am proceeding to deal with the business of the House, items Nos. 3 and 4.

    Where is the Minister?

    The matter is not in order now.

    What are you afraid of? Why did he mislead the Dáil by saying that £104 million——

    Items Nos. 3 and 4, the Minister for Tourism to move.

    ——when our Minister for Agriculture could not tell us.

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