Vol. 393 No. 5
asked the Minister for Defence if, in view of the likelihood that the Commission on Defence Forces Pay and Conditions will not report by the end of the year, he will consider the payment of a goodwill bonus to members of the Defence Forces at Christmas; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
12.
asked the Minister for Defence when the independent Commission set up to look into the question of remuneration and conditions of service in the Defence Forces will report; the composition by rank of each of the three teams presenting the cases on behalf of (1) privates, (2) non-commissioned officers and (3) officers; the way in which the teams were chosen; if the commission has taken or proposes to take evidence or hear submissions from individual members of the Defence Forces; if the findings of the Commission will be binding; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
14.
asked the Minister for Defence having regard to the projected delay in the completion of the commission investigation and the issuing of their findings, if he will give a commitment that their recommendations particularly in the area of pay be made retrospective at least to the date of the setting up of the commission in July of this year; and, as a measure of goodwill, if he will make a special payment prior to Christmas to members of the Defence Forces.
22.
asked the Minister for Defence when it is expected that the final report of the commission on pay and conditions in the Defence Forces will be published; the number of occasions on which the commission has met to date; if it is intended to publish an interim report; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
49.
asked the Minister for Defence if, in view of the low morale in the Defence Forces because of the pay issue controversy, he has any plans or proposals to improve morale in the Defence Forces; if so, if he will give details of such plans; when they will be put into effect; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
58.
asked the Minister for Defence if he will make a special interim payment to members of the Defence Forces for Christmas having regard to the delay in dealing with their claim and to assist them in providing for their families and dependents.
63.
asked the Minister for Defence the reason for the delay in bringing forward the commission's report in relation to pay and conditions in the Defence Forces having regard to the fact that the commission was set up some considerable time ago and also having regard to the fact that the problem has existed for some time and that the facts and concerns and representations by the Defence Forces were made a long time ago.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 10, 12, 14, 22, 49, 58 and 63 together.
In July last the Government established an independent commission under the chairmanship of Mr. Dermot Gleeson, S.C., with the following terms of reference:
To carry out a major review of the remuneration and conditions of service of the Defence Forces having regard to their separate and distinct role and organisation and to make recommendations.
The Government, after consultation with the Chief of Staff, requested him to appoint three teams — one each for Privates, Non-Commissioned Officer's and Officers — which would have responsibility to prepare and present the case on behalf of their particular group. The composition of the teams was as follows:
(a) for Privates: Six members of the rank of Private or equivalent; (b) for NCO's: Six Non-Commissioned Officers of the ranks of Warrant Officer, SergeantMajor, Flight-Sergeant, Company-Sergeant (2) and Staff Quartermaster-Sergeant; and (c) for Officers: Six Officers of Commandant rank.
Each of the three teams includes a representative from each of the four Commands, one from the Air Corps and one from the Naval Service. The representatives on each team were nominated by the members of the ranks represented by that particular team.
In the case of each team three Officers were appointed by the Chief of Staff to assist in the preparation of its submission.
In August last the commission placed advertisements in a number of newspapers inviting interested persons and organisations to make submissions to it not later than 30 September 1989. There was no restriction as to who might make a submission. Subsequently the commission at the request of the three military teams agreed to extend the deadline for the receipt of their submissions to 15 November 1989 to ensure that the most comprehensive case would be prepared. I understand that the teams' submissions were, in fact, presented to the commission on that date. The task assigned to the commission is an extensive and complex one. In the circumstances the question of delay does not arise.
A firm of management consultants was engaged to provide assistance to the three military teams in preparing their submissions.
I understand that the commission has decided not to issue an interim report and to concentrate instead on producing a comprehensive report at the conclusion of its deliberations. It will be a matter for the Government to consider the commission's recommendations when they are made. The question of an interim payment, as such, does not arise but the various increases in pay and allowances which were awarded in December 1988 arising from the report of the interdepartmental committee on pay and allowances for the Defence Forces, are being implemented on schedule together with the further increases relating to the final phase of the public service pay agreement.
I should like to emphasise that the new commission is an entirely independent body and that my Department's only role in regard to it is one of facilitating the commission on request. In that connection arrangements have been made over the last few months for visits by members of the commission to a number of military barracks, posts and installations. I have no function as regards the manner in which the commission may decide to conduct their business. They are completely independent within their terms of reference.
I am calling the Deputies in the order in which their names appear on the Order Paper.
As this is the first occasion on which we have the opportunity of hearing from the Tánaiste in his role as Minister for Defence I welcome him. I congratulate him on his appointment and wish him well.
Having said that I have to say that, in view of the long deliberations that will, of necessity, be undertaken by the review commission, I am disappointed that the Minister can not see his way to considering the gesture of goodwill suggested. Would he not consider that it would be a well received gesture in view of the disciplined restraint by members of the Defence Forces as they await the outcome and the recommendations of the review body to make an interim payment to them in the lead up to the Christmas period particularly in regard to the universal view in this House that standards of pay within the Defence Forces are not as they should be?
The Deputy will appreciate that we have now got this matter moving on constructive lines. We hope to establish a permanent basis on which pay and conditions within our national Army can be guaranteed into the future. It is important that we await the commission's final recommendations on a very complex and wide ranging area before we come to a firm decision as to how we implement their recommendations. Any interference with what they are pursuing at the moment in a very complex area would be premature and might do harm. I appreciate what the Deputy has said about the discipline and restraint being exercised by the members of the Defence Forces. I am sure that they will continue to exercise that discipline and restraint. They have had absolute freedom of access to this commission and they appreciate that. I feel very strongly that we should leave it at that.
I would like to join with Deputy McCartan in congratulating the Minister for Defence on his first occasion here for Question Time and wishing him every success.
I would like to ask the Minister whether he can confirm reports, which seem to be backed up by his own information there, that it is likely now to be June or July of next year before the commission report? Could he also confirm that in the meantime there is no inhibition on his giving whatever he likes, by way of bonus, to the various Army personnel? In view of the moral obligation that all the Members of the House feel towards our Army personnel, would the Minister not now consider making some bonus payment over the Christmas period at least? That would have the support of everybody in this House. I have no doubt that the Minister himself would like to do so. Could he confirm then that there is no inhibition on him in this respect and that it is purely a decision for the Government?
A lot of effort has been put into this and representations have been made over a long period to get this independent body established. That is the important aspect, both from the point of view of the military personnel and their families, and the nation as a whole. Now that we have this independent body in place it is important that they should look into this matter in all its aspects. In fact the postponement of the date for receipt of their conclusions largely arises out of the representations being made to them by the interested parties on behalf of the different sectors of the Defence Forces who want this matter looked into in great detail and not settled overnight in a facile fashion. I appreciate the motivation behind the Deputy's suggestion which is an excellent one but I feel it is better that the matter be settled once and for all on a solid basis rather than making ad hoc decisions now while the work of examination, investigation and consultation is proceeding with the representatives at the various sectors of the Defence Forces.
It is all right for us in this House to express those sentiments and I am sure we are all at one with the Minister in trying to get finality to this, but the morale——
Questions please, Deputy Ryan, ceisteanna.
In respect of the Minister's reply and given the extent of the morale out there——
I have called for questions.
——and the expectations——
We must proceed by way of questions. This is Question Time.
I am saying to the Minister that he has it in his own hands to do something about the problem. I ask him to make this commitment here this afternoon that the findings of the commission in respect of pay, for example, can be made retrospective at least to the day of the setting up of the commission. This will go a long way in allaying the fears of the people out there, the spouses and the people in the Army services——
The Deputy has made his point effectively.
It is within his hands and he has the power to do that. I am asking him to give that commitment.
I will abide by my commitment which was made summarily and publicly and I repeat it here, to set up an independent commission in which neither I, my Department nor the Government will interfere. They will arbitrate, investigate, examine, consider, consult, decide and make recommendations on a whole range of issues relating to the vexed question of pay and conditions in our Defence Forces, and we will come to finality by way of Government decision following their recommendations. I am proceeding along that path which I regard as the best and most constructive path, and that was so approved in public statements issued by members of the opposing parties after I announced the establishment of this commission last July.
Deputy Nealon's Question No. 11, please.
Very briefly——
The Deputy may not impose on me like that. I will allow a further brief supplementary question.
Having heard every point the Minister made, in the context of settling matters once and for all, will he confirm that the recommendations when issued will be binding and acted upon?
One cannot exactly forecast the future but I am confident at this stage, having regard to the nature and the excellence of the commission who have been established, the nature of their work and the way they are going about it that the Government will be in a position to implement their recommendations when their recommendations come to hand.
Everyone is delighted that the commission are totally independent and, knowing the personnel, they could be nothing but that. Would the Minister accept that the giving of some interim payment would in no way prejudice the work of the commission nor in any way prejudge them or interfere with the great independence they have got?
I have taken a very positive, constructive step for the first time since the formation of the State in this regard. All political parties agree on the importance of our national Army in the whole structure of our State. I believe we should proceed as we are proceeding and have this matter concluded properly at the end of the day rather than interfering in any ad hoc manner that may push expectations in a certain direction and may be perceived in the wrong way. The commission are there and I propose to leave the position precisely as I have stated.
While acknowledging the Minister's commitment here this afternoon to implementing the findings, I ask him once again to go that little bit further in this House and give a commitment to a retrospective payment to the date of the setting up of the commission. That would help alleviate much distrust.
