Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Nov 1989

Vol. 393 No. 5

Dún Laoghaire Harbour Bill, 1989: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That section 8 stand part of the Bill."

Minister for the Marine (Mr. Wilson)

Before we reported progress I was concluding my remarks in reply to points made by Deputies Taylor-Quinn, Gilmore and Barrett. I indicated that anybody who was blaming the Dún Laoghaire Borough Council for the state of the piers was being unjust to the council. Hitherto, the Commissioners of Public Works were responsible for the piers and the purpose of this Bill is to transfer the responsibilities, powers, etc., from the Commissioners to the Minister for the Marine.

I think I answered all the other points which were raised by the Deputies and I want to express my appreciation to them for their contributions.

Mr. S. Barrett

Before we adjourned we were trying to establish in pounds and pence the sort of income which will be received through the various charges outlined in section 8 and the sort of expenditure involved. Before we decide to transfer powers from the Office of Public Works to the Minister for the Marine it is important that we know the policy in relation to the charges which will be imposed for various activities in the harbour. I think that is a reasonable request to make.

I appreciate that before we adjourned the Minister may not have had the figures available but I hope that during the break his staff in the Department got some indication as to what type of moneys we are talking about. At the end of the day the public do not have a vehicle available to them so that they can have a say in what is charged, on what basis the charges are made, on what basis the harbour will be run and the activities which should be allowed which will bring this income into the Department. We need to know the answers to these relevant questions before the Dáil is asked to agree to transfer the powers in respect of tolls, rates, dues and other charges from the Office of Public Works to the Department of the Marine. Perhaps the Minister can give us more definite information as to the policy in relation to the charges which will be made and the type of activities which will be permitted.

Mr. Wilson

With regard to the point about moneys, as I stated, these will go to the Exchequer. The policy with regard to rates is, of course, one of commercial consideration. In other words, the charges will be decided purely on a commercial basis. Naturally, as a guideline, charges in similar ports on this side or on the other side of the Irish sea, or on the Continent, will be taken into account when deciding what charges are to be made. With regard to the question about the annual revenue I can state that the vast bulk of the revenue — I do not have the details to give the House — at Dún Laoghaire comes from the ferry activity.

Mr. Gilmore

We are still very much in the dark in relation to the whole question of charges at Dún Laoghaire harbour. Under the previous administration of the harbour this was cloaked in secrecy and while global figures were given to the House at various stages as to the income the Office of Public Works receive from the harbour and the expenditure they incurred there was a great reluctance to give details of what was involved. There was a particular reluctance to detail what was involved in relation to the financial and leasing arrangements between the Department and the yacht clubs. The House, or the public, have never been told of the arrangements involved, the terms of the leases or the charges, if any, that are applied to the yacht clubs for the use of public property and public facilities at Dún Laoghaire harbour.

Deputy Barrett is correct in asking that such information be made known to the House. Earlier I raised a question about the small boats that use the inner harbour. The Minister took the liberty of considerably exaggerating what I said in regard to this on Second Stage. In fairness, I gave credit to the Department of the Marine for some improvment in the way the harbour has been managed since they took it over. However, I would not put those remarks in the same exaggerated terms that the Minister did.

There is considerable concern that since the Department of the Marine took over they have targeted the coal harbour areas for particular attention for charges.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The section relates to charges.

Mr. Gilmore

My comments relate to charges.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I did not get that impression and I should like to ask the Deputy to relate his remarks as soon as possible to what is in the section.

Mr. Gilmore

I appreciate that it may be difficult for the Chair, who has just arrived in the Chamber, to take up the trend of the debate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is never difficult for me to know what is relevant. The difficulty lies with the Deputy and I should like to ask him not to persist so that I will not have to remind him that it appears to me that he is not in order.

Mr. Gilmore

I have no difficulty in regard to this. The section deals with tolls, rates, dues and other charges. Earlier I drew the Minister's attention to the fact that his Department, since they took over the running of the harbour, have targeted the coal harbour area for increased charges, as they targeted that area for what they described as a cleaning-up operation. My concern is that the coal harbour area is the very sensitive part of the harbour that is used by the ordinary people of Dún Laoghaire and was identified as the site for a marina development which was publicly and politically controversial. There is considerable local concern that the targeting of that area for increased charges on boat owners is part of the process of clearing out the boat owners from that area to make way for a private marina development. That view has been re-enforced by statements contained in the report of the planning review group which referred to the trawler men who used Dún Laoghaire having to go to Howth and base themselves there. This is a critical point and the Minister should clear it up.

Will the Minister say that there will not be any marina development in the coal harbour area? Will he allay the fears of the small boat owners who consider the increased charges as a type of Trojan horse action to get them from the coal harbour in order to make way for a marina development? If the Minister clarifies those questions he will lay at rest many fears that exist in the area. The charges were increased by the Department before the Houses of the Oireachtas passed this Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In another profession the Minister was accustomed to dealing with matters connected with Troy.

Mr. Wilson

I should like to tell Deputy Gilmore that I, too, am very much committed to transparency. I do not subscribe to the philosophy of people trying to do things in an underhanded fashion or, as the Deputy said, engage in Trojan horse type activities. I gave the Deputy details of the charges involved and informed him of where he can get details of them. Tonnage and goods rates are given in the document, Dún Laoghaire Harbour, County Dublin, Schedules of Tonnage and Goods Rates Leviable by Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland as from 1 January 1989, now the Minister for the Marine acting as agent for the Commissioners of Public Works. The Deputy was supplied with that document.

Yachts moored at the harbour — incidentally, I am not a member, fortunately, of a yacht club and if I were I would probably be more aware of the costs to yacht clubs — are currently subject to a licence fee of £70 per annum. Public boat yard charges are as follows: dinghies, £30 per season; individual storage spaces for larger craft — these do not belong to the ordinary people of Dún Laoghaire — £100 per season; power driven which, £25 per vessel; hand operated crane, £5 per vessel; supply of water to yachts, £1 — a bottle of Ballygowan almost costs that amount; supply of water to others, £5. As I told the Deputy it is not the practice, for obvious reasons, to divulge information regarding commercial transactions with individual parties involved in renting property. Commercial enterprises are more than anxious to maintain their own commercial secrets because they are in competition with others.

Deputy Gilmore referred to the coal harbour area but I thought I had made it plain to the House that the interim board would be advising me about the development of Dún Laoghaire harbour, that I would be taking into account the conclusions of the punctilious and detailed report of the group under the chairmanship of Professor McAleese. Deputy Gilmore is asking me to say that this or that will not happen before the interim harbour board have considered the matter and before anybody else has had an opportunity of making an input. I am not going to do that. That is precisely the purpose of setting up an interim harbour board and asking them to consider the total development of the harbour for the good not merely of the citizen of Dún Laoghaire but of the country and taking into account all the activities, including leisure activities, to be developed at Dún Laoghaire.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

The Minister has answered most of the queries I had wished to raise. I wish to put on record that there is a genuine fear that charges may escalate when the Department of the Marine take control of Dún Laoghaire harbour. There is a genuine fear among the users of the harbour that a Government Department, divorced from Dún Laoghaire, would set exorbitant charges. Deputy Barrett was quite correct when he said this would not arise if there was a harbour authority because the people themselves would control it in conjunction with the Department of the Marine. I ask the Minister to make all possible haste in setting up an interim harbour authority so that the people could enforce the charges they saw fit.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I am pleased that at long last we have managed to extract the details of the charges. We started to extract the information at 12 noon and eventually we got some idea of the level of charges. Interestingly, there is very little difference between the rate charged to a dinghy owner and a yacht owner. The person who owns a yacht is charged only £40 more than the dinghy owner whereas he should be in a position to pay much more than the ordinary Joe Soap who owns a dinghy.

Mr. Wilson

There is no such thing as an ordinary Joe Soap in Dún Laoghaire.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

Perhaps the Minister, when deciding on the level of charges in future should consider the ordinary people who can only afford a dinghy. We seem to be threading on politically sensitive waters when we talk about the coal harbour in Dún Laoghaire. There is a tendency to close in and one has to wonder if there is an element of truth in what Deputy Gilmore had to say on the ordinary person being priced out of the harbour so that eventually it would be used so seldom that there would be little option but to go ahead with the development by private operators.

Could the Minister assure the House that no development will take place until a proper harbour authority is set up and that such authority decide on the development that takes place. We have repeatedly sought this assurance in the House on Second and Committee Stages, but to date none has been forthcoming. With regard to the overall financial position of Dún Laoghaire harbour, will the Minister tell us whether it has operated on a sound financial footing, breaking even or making a surplus or has it made a loss over the past number of years? Could the Minister outline his future plans for the development of the harbour and the charges that will be made for the services provided? It is extremely important that this House knows, and as a result the people involved know, what charges may be imposed on them in the future. The dinghy owner, the yacht owner and indeed the ferry operator — the ferry terminal is extremely important for the viability of Dún Laoghaire harbour — would like an indication on the future level of charges. The Department of the Marine must have some idea at this stage, but if they have not it is a very poor lookout and makes the Bill a greater farce than it is already. I hope the Minister can answer these questions. He should let us know exactly how viable the harbour has been in the past; has it made a surplus, a loss or broken even? Would the Minister specify the percentage rate of increase in charges, if there is to be an increase? Could he further indicate the income he hopes to take from the harbour in the forthcoming financial year and how he intends to use this money? We know the Minister has already told the House that the priority is to pay the wages and salaries of employees. However we would like a clear straightforward account with less shying and hiding of the Department's policy on the harbour. There is a certain amount of sidestepping the issue. I hope the Minister comes forward and gives an account straight from the shoulder rather than the convoluted diverse account which we have received during the course of the debate.

Mr. Wilson

I can assure Deputy O'Sullivan that it would not be the purpose of this Department to escalate charges and I would not accept that this Government Department, which is only three years in existence, would have a hardening of the arteries with regard to the activities of the Department. We will be in a position to suit the charges to the commercial value of the services given.

Deputy Taylor-Quinn said she was grateful that she had succeeded in extracting information.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

A major operation.

Mr. Wilson

For her enlightenment, I wish to state that I had put the information I gave her on the record of the House on 7 November 1989, so that the information was already available to the Deputy if she had cared to keep a check on the questions that were answered in the House.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

No doubt it was a written question with a tabular statement.

Mr. Wilson

The information the Deputy sought and which she thought she was extracting all day was already available. The tooth was already out. The interim board we are setting up will play a big role in determining the pace, the nature and the extent of the development. The Deputy also asked whether the harbour was breaking even. I am pleased to tell her and the House that there has been a surplus on the operation of Dún Laoghaire harbour for the past three years but before that it was making a loss. It is important to remember that a foreign commercial company are operating the ferry from Dún Laoghaire to Holyhead, and that the company purchased the harbour at Holyhead as well as the old British company from the British Government. That is the kind of atmosphere in which we are living, in which we make our commercial decisions and, of course, in which we retain certain commercial information. The Deputy will appreciate that as I have found she has been level headed and balanced in her attitude to the activities of the Department of the Marine.

Mr. S. Barrett

When the interim board is put in place will it have the power to recommend the small dinghy owners should not be charged for the use of the waters? When they produce financial recommendations do they have to get the blessing of the Department of the Marine to enforce them or do they have autonomy in these matters? May I further ask the Minister whether, in developing the harbour for different types of ferries that may come into it in the future, the interim harbour board will have a part to play in determining the cost or type of development or will it be a matter for the Department to decide and that the interim board will only be a talking shop? It is probably a bit annoying for a Minister to have to deal with a Deputy on a Bill concerning the Deputy's own constituency. Naturally we would have more of an interest than most others in this matter. I do not want to imply that the Minister is not concerned about Dún Laoghaire harbour or its development but it is hard to explain the feeling that people living in Dún Laoghaire have about the harbour. First, they treasure it very much and recognise that it is an essential part of the local economy. We have heard rumour after rumour in recent years that the ferry was going to go and we have had discussions with Sealink. It was rumoured that there were moves in Dublin Port and that they were manipulating to get a major ferry port in Dublin harbour. All of these rumours keep circulating.

Dún Laoghaire harbour is unique in so far as the people there do not have any control over it. If we look at the position at Cork Harbour, we will see that Deputy O'Sullivan has an entrée into the development of the harbour through the commissioners. The same applies in Limerick and Dublin ports. For some peculiar reason there is a massive reluctance to give that level of independence to Dún Laoghaire harbour. When we match this with what was attempted 12 months ago or more it leads to more suspicion. This whole matter is shredded with suspicion and I cannot for the life of me understand that we are involved in a wrangle over the transfer of authority from one Department to another and that we are not going to have a harbour authority.

Trying to find out if this rumour is true and if what the guesthouse owner told one over the telephone is totally exaggerated or if she heard it on good grounds is like pulling out teeth on a daily basis.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I detect the Deputy is putting out to sea on a Second Stage contribution.

Mr. S. Barrett

Absolutely not.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are on Committee Stage.

Mr. S. Barrett

This is probably the most important section of the Bill.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not give the Deputy licence to move beyond what is in the section.

Mr. S. Barrett

It is probably the most important section.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I must say I would be really delighted if I were about to embark on this great travel with you through the waters of Dún Laoghaire but it is not permitted on Committee Stage.

Mr. S. Barrett

I will try to be orderly.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I would enjoy it better if the Deputy can occasionally at least relate his remarks to what is in the section.

Mr. S. Barrett

One has to stray just a little occasionally to make their point. What I am trying to explain to you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and you are a very patient man sitting there listening to me, is that the development of Dún Laoghaire harbour is going to cost money. The level of fees charged forms part and parcel of the income that will make this development possible. To retain the ferry service there must be development as different types of ships and more modern needs will have to be catered for. When I begin to stray a little I am trying to get back to base to try to find out if moneys will be made available. All of these issues are intertwined.

I notice that the Minister is loosening up a little. Perhaps following lunch we are in better form but can he assure us a little more and tell us what this interim board is all about? Can he indicate if this is the first step towards the setting up of a harbour authority and if there will be some liaison between the local authority and Members of this House so that we do not have to keep putting down parliamentary questions, being cut off after two minutes, that we do not have to seek continuous deputations in an effort to get a little information and that Dún Laoghaire Corporation would not have to spend half their monthly meeting time discussing these issues? That is why I feel a sense of frustration. I cannot speak for anybody else, but after all the talk of the last three and a half years when we thought we were getting a harbour authority, after all the suspicion and the peculiar developments which took place, there is still a reluctance to let Dún Laoghaire go when everybody else has their freedom.

The Government have talked about establishing an all-party committee and about the reform of local Government. We have decentralisation. For example, there are now offices of the Department of Social Welfare in Sligo yet Dún Laoghaire harbour has to be kept under wraps. There is something missing but I have not found the missing link yet. I am hoping that by the time this Bill has passed through the House I will have all the little bits and pieces together, that I will know, for example, if there will be a 25 per cent increase in the fees charged for the berthing of a yacht or a punt in Dún Laoghaire harbour and if there is to be some liaison with the local council. We need to know on what basis charges are to be made. Is it going to be a scratch of the head job with people saying they will be increased by 25 per cent this year to see how they will get on or will they be similar to the fees charged in Cork, Limerick, Howth or Holyhead?

May we also have some indication as to whether there is likely to be an increase in employment in the harbour as a result of the development and income generated? I think, and Deputy Gilmore would bear me out on this, that the unemployment rate in Dún Laoghaire is above the national average. Therefore, every crumb we can get——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is not suggesting that we should have increased dues to pay for special employment schemes.

Mr. S. Barrett

I want to see the overall plan.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I think Deputy Barrett's reasonable conscience must be pricking him a little in respect of this section.

Mr. S. Barrett

Not in the slightest.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It should be.

Mr. S. Barrett

I make no apology — but I will adhere to the Chair's ruling of course — for coming into this House and fighting for the maximum for Dún Laoghaire. I make no apologies for seeing to it, and I am a native of the place, that we have some say in who is going to develop Dún Laoghaire harbour, who is going to use it and the use it is put to. If I upset or detain somebody as a result, tough luck, but I am determined to use every vehicle open to me within the rules of this House and with your blessing or endorsement to leave here with some picture. At the moment I have not got a picture. The only thing we have is this document which seems to be gathering dust.

Last Friday week the Minister of State on Second Stage of this Bill gave an assurance that the membership of the interim board would be announced within a week. Three weeks prior to that the Minister told us that the harbour board would be set up and the names released within a week. None of this has happened. So far as I am concerned, this is just another episode in the story of Dún Laoghaire harbour. Some time ago we had the marina problem when public meetings and marches were held. The people of Dún Laoghaire are entitled to that information. Why is it that Dún Laoghaire has to be different as a harbour? Why the reluctance to give it independence when we have all sorts of other areas with such development potential having independence? That question has never been answered. When I had an opportunity to be part of the decision-making process that decision was taken. There appears now to have been a reversal of that decision.

I do not know why we cannot have our independence. It will not affect anybody nor deprive the State of massive amounts of money, but it can make a hell of a difference to the livelihoods of many people in Dún Laoghaire who depend on the harbour and the inflow and outflow of traffic. It is also a beautiful amenity belonging to every person in the country, not just to the people of Dún Laoghaire. When we get an opportunity in this House to debate an important asset like Dún Laoghaire harbour I would like to leave here feeling that I have done the best I can to get the maximum information to help to put in place some sort of structure that will help to bring about the type of development we are looking for. We are not here wasting our time as a crowd of cranks. We are trying to bring about a situation where the potential as outlined in the report can be brought to fruition, so that we can get the sort of development spoken about there. We do not want to have another two or three years of continuous wrangling about the development of Dún Laoghaire harbour.

Mr. Gilmore

It would be very helpful if we managed to get some clarity at the end of this discussion. The Minister, in his earlier reply to me, seemed to be under the impression that anybody who has anything larger than a dinghy in the coal harbour is a member of a yacht club and can well afford to pay charges which have been increased from £5 to £100 for winter storage. That increase must be a record charge this year. I assure the Minister that if he is under that impression, he is wrong. There are people who use winter storage moorings in the coal harbour who are not wealthy people, who use their boats for family recreation, or perhaps for a little fishing, and they are now being required to pay charges of £170 a year, taking the mooring and storage charges, before they pay for insurance or put the boat into the water at all. For somebody on a low income that is a substantial amount of money and would certainly discourage many people, particularly those on a low income, from participating in this type of recreational activity.

I saw from a press cutting that the Minister was recently at a function where he launched a new company, Irish Yachting Finance, to help boat owners cope with mounting costs of club fees, etc., and he stated that it was important to keep marine recreation within the scope of the ordinary person's budget so that it does not become the preserve of millionaires, tycoons or even Government Ministers. My objective is to make sure that the facilities at Dún Laoghaire harbour, which up to now have, by and large, been the preserve of millionaires, tycoons and Government Ministers——

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

And Deputies.

Mr. Gilmore

——can be used by the great majority of people. For that reason I am anxious to see that those charges are kept down and that where a case for a reduction is made to the harbour management, it will be considered sympathetically.

From the Minister's reply to my earlier remarks I understood him to say that until the interim board have been established and draw up a plan for Dún Laoghaire harbour, permission will not be given for development in the harbour or for the construction of a marina. Will the Minister clarify that, as I felt the Minister expressed it in a negative way whereas it should be expressed positively? Of course, we have been waiting for the interim authority for so long now that I am beginning to wonder if the PDs are not looking for membership of it, thus the delay in announcing its membership and its terms of reference.

I was surprised that the Minister did not deal with the question of the charges and the terms under which leases are held by the yacht clubs and that he described these as commercial transactions. The House was previously informed about the amount of money Sealink pay to the State for their facilities at Dún Laoghaire harbour and that presumably is a commercial transaction, so why can this House not be told the terms of the leases under which the yacht clubs use the facilities at Dún Laoghaire harbour? That is a fundamental piece of public information. Why are we not being told? Why is that being described as a commercial transaction when in relation to Sealink, which is a real commercial transaction, there was no trouble at all in giving us the information? Could it be that the management of Dún Laoghaire harbour, the reluctance to establish an interim authority and the privilege that has been traditionally enjoyed by the yacht clubs are interconnected and that there is concern that the establishment of a harbour authority will bring into the open some kind of privileged treatment which some institutions have been enjoying in Dún Laoghaire? The public are entitled to that information.

The State owns the harbour and if some organisation or body has the use of the harbour we should know under what terms. We are talking here about the entire waterfront and the bulk of moorings which are under the control of the yacht clubs. As far as leisure use is concerned, the harbour is substantially controlled by the yacht clubs. The people are entitled to know the terms under which those facilities are made available.

In relation to the question of the car ferry, it is becoming like the great national aims. Everybody is in favour of retaining the car ferry in Dún Laoghaire but we know that there is a very strong lobby to have a unified car ferry terminal in Dublin port. Straight away, if that is conceded it will prejudice the position of the car ferry in Dún Laoghaire. We know that passenger facilities in Dún Laoghaire are sub-standard. We know that the Dún Laoghaire-Holyhead crossing is the shortest sea route between this country and Britain and that it is the most widely used. Something like 40 per cent of sea passengers out of this country use the Dún Laoghaire route. We know that when the Channel tunnel is built sea crossings, particularly this route, will be critically important. What will the Government do about the improvement of passenger facilities at Dún Laoghaire? Are there plans? I know that Sealink have a plan for which they have sought funding. Have the Government made any application for European funds?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, you are intelligent enough now to realise that you are extending your contribution beyond what is provided for in section 8. I would ask the Deputy to return to port and deal with what is in the section in respect of tolls, dues and other charges. The harbour's pedigree and other things are all very interesting but they are not relevant under this section. I am anxious to raise anchor on this section as soon as possible.

Mr. Gilmore

I hope you will afford me the same amount of leniency as you have afforded some of my colleagues. I am addressing myself to section 8. The Minister did say that Sealink provides the single, largest financial contribution at Dún Laoghaire.

Mr. Wilson

They do not provide the passenger facilities.

Mr. Gilmore

Far be it for me to make Sealink's case. They are perfectly capable of making it themselves. My case is made irrespective of who would be running the ferry. The point I am making is that the car ferry is the single greatest generator of income for the State in Dún Laoghaire. The need to upgrade passenger facilities has already been identified. I am simply trying to establish whether the Government have any plans to obtain funds from the European Community or to put money directly into the upgrading of passenger facilities at Dún Laoghaire harbour. What are the Government's plans? I know this much: if passenger facilities at Dún Laoghaire harbour are not upgraded then all the rhetoric and waffle about keeping the car ferry in Dún Laoghaire and all the talk about the importance of it to the borough, will not keep that car ferry there. As the Minister rightly pointed out, this company, now a privately owned company, will make commercially based decisions, and I am fearful that the car ferry will be lost to Dún Laoghaire unless there is an investment in the terminal to improve passenger facilities.

The Minister referred to the deputation. I was on the deputation and I was very glad to hear the Minister state his commitment to the retention of the car ferry in Dún Laoghaire, but that is contingent on investment in the car ferry terminal and in passenger facilities. I would like the Minister to clarify the position and let us know whether or not the Government have any intentions in that regard.

Mr. Wilson

First, I would like to take up the points made by Deputy Barrett. The interim board will be set up in the next few days. Its terms of reference will impose on it an obligation to advise me on all aspects of the development of Dún Laoghaire harbour.

Deputy Barrett said that, as a native of Dún Laoghaire, he has a special interest in the harbour, that he treasures it and that he is worried about rumours he has heard and suspicions that he has. I would like to scotch the rumours and allay his suspicions about the commitment of Roinn na Mara to the development of Dún Laoghaire. I want to assure him of that commitment. I am sure constitutency pressures are high and that the worry about the downgrading of the harbour or the loss of the ferry must be a cause of great concern to the Deputy. I would like, as my good deed for the day, to scotch the rumours and clear away any suspicions the Deputy has about the future of Dún Laoghaire harbour. I hope the Deputy will accept my assurances on that matter. The whole purpose of the interim board is to absorb the spirit of Dún Laoghaire which makes Deputy Barrett treasure it, to take the advice of whoever has useful advice to give as to how the harbour should be developed. I am not giving a wrong impression about the charges for dinghies and larger craft. The House should reflect on the fact that the highest charge of £100 per season is less than the cost of one packet of 20 cigarettes per week and the charges that are now in operation are roughly geared to cost of living rises, so there is nothing untoward or outrageous about these charges.

I, too, would envisage the development at Dún Laoghaire as a development which would make marine recreation available to as many as possible across the social spectrum. I would not like a development whereby only those who could afford to be members of yacht clubs could use the facilities. There will be no development without the advice of the board and the people in the best position to give that advice. This is not a political issue. The car ferry is the most substantial earner for Dún Laoghaire and it is my policy to retain it there. I admit that the passenger facilities are inadequate and need updating.

I want to put it on the record of this House that the State have invested substantial sums of money in Dún Laoghaire in the past. To those commercial enterprises, native or private, that level criticisms at Dún Laoghaire, I would like to say that the facilities that are available there have been put there by the Irish people without any charge on any foreign enterprise or firm. The Government put in a substantial programme for the expenditure on structural funds, including the development of harbours.

When we are being criticised by others I would like the House to bear in mind that our citizens have invested very heavily in the development of the ferry service in Dún Laoghaire.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

We have now got from the Minister on this section a fairly wide ranging scholastic dissertation on his ambitions of what he envisages for Dún Laoghaire. I am interested to hear him say this new interim authority will absorb the spirit of Dún Laoghaire. He might like to elaborate in greater detail on what the absorption of the spirit of Dún Laoghaire in effect means. I suggest the authority would want to be very porous to absorb the entire spirit of Dún Laoghaire.

As the debate has progressed this afternoon it has become increasingly evident that section 8, which deals with tolls, rates, dues and other charges, is closely intertwined with the setting up of this interim authority. Granted the interim authority are only going to advise the Minister on taking advice from the borough council, but I suggest it would be of massive relief to him as Minister and he would be unloading major political burdens and harassment if he were to take the opportunity on the Floor of this House to name the interim authority and have it over and done with.

Mr. Wilson

The Deputy should have asked me earlier.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

We could approach individuals and the interim authority would be there. People could relate to the interim authority, contact them in a consultative capacity in relation to the tolls, rates, dues and other charges. It would satisfy all other Members on this side if we had that. The Minister might take this opportunity to announce to the House the interim authority. I am sure he knows exactly who they are.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not think it would be relevant to section 8.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

——It would be very relevant.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

It is becoming increasingly evident that the toll, rates, dues and other charges are closely intertwined with the interim authority.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

How do the personalities in any authority relate to that?

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

Maybe I am verbose, but if your patience will allow me to explain. I am saying they are intertwined with the charges that will be decided. If they were decided by the interim authority and the Minister was subsequently advised by that authority, the people on the ground would feel that they had an input into the decision making and the charges being decided. As it stands, it is going to be decided by the authority.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister indicated that. How would the identification of the personalities relate to the charge?

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

We understand they will be members of Dún Laoghaire Borough Council and they would relate to the people of Dún Laoghaire. That is how this section would impinge on decision making and would relate to the matter before us.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the Deputy looking for information or giving it?

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

You seem to have difficulty in relating my points to the section.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Absolutely.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

The Minister might take the opportunity to make this House and the people of Dún Laoghaire happy when it comes to deciding tolls, rates, dues and other charges. This has been promised on three occasions, the latest being in this House by the Minister earlier today. I appeal to the Minister to avail of the opportunity——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Old Moore's Almanac is not relevant.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

Very relevant.

Question put.

The Committee divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 61.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Mattie.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John (Wexford).
• Calleary, Seán.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cullimore, Séamus.
• Kelly, Laurence.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McDaid, Jim.
• McEllistrim, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Noonan, Michael J.
• (Limerick West).
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dennehy, John.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Flood, Chris.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hillery, Brian.
• Hilliard, Colm.
• Jacob, Joe.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• O'Toole, Martin Joe.
• Power, Seán.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Roche, Dick.
• Smith, Michael.
• Stafford, John.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Ahearn, Therese.
• Allen, Bernard.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Peter.
• Bell, Michael.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
• Cotter, Bill.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• Fennell, Nuala.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• McCartan, Pat.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• Mac Giolla, Tomás.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael.
• (Limerick East).
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Gerry.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick J.
• Spring, Dick.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Ta, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

We now proceed to section 9 which is the citation of the Bill.

SECTION 9.

Question proposed: "That section 9 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Gilmore

On a point of order, I tabled an amendment to section 9 which you have ruled out of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is deemed out of order.

Mr. Gilmore

I really do not understand why——

An Ceann Comhairle

This is a matter which may not be challenged in this House.

Mr. Gilmore

I do not know how else to challenge it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will not permit you to challenge my ruling in this matter. You did it earlier today.

Mr. Gilmore

For the simple reason that I cannot understand your ruling.

An Ceann Comhairle

If you want any further elaboration my office is at your disposal. It may not be challenged now.

Mr. Gilmore

We have had——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will resume his seat on this matter.

Mr. Gilmore

We have had a long debate on this Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand that, but I repeat that your amendment is out of order for the reasons given to you. It may not be discussed now.

Mr. Gilmore

There were no reasons given to me. I am trying to establish what the reasons are.

An Ceann Comhairle

My office is at your disposal. I have no intention of giving the reasons now.

Mr. Gilmore

The amendment deals with——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gilmore, you had better resume your seat or I will have to ask you to leave the House.

Mr. Gilmore

A Cheann Comhairle, I——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will ask you once more to resume your seat on this matter or leave the House.

Mr. Gilmore

I am simply——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gilmore, leave the House.

Deputy Gilmore withdrew from the Chamber.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

We oppose this section because the Bill does not do what needs to be done for Dún Laoghaire harbour. It is nothing more than a piece of bureaucratic machinery transferring the responsibility for the harbour from one Department to another. The Bill does nothing to improve the development, management or overall co-ordination and restructuring of the harbour for economic, commercial, recreational or any type of leisure facility.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hesitate to interrupt the Deputy but she will observe that the citation is merely one line, to the effect that this Act may be cited as the Dún Laoghaire Harbour Act, 1989. Perhaps the Deputy wishes to make remarks on the Fifth Stage. The remarks she is making would be more appropriate then.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

That will be another day.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no scope on section 9.

Question put and agreed to.

Question proposed: "That the Title be the Title to the Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the Title agreed?

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

No.

Question put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 61.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Barrett, Michael.
• Brady, Gerard.
• Brady, Vincent.
• Brennan, Mattie.
• Brennan, Séamus.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John (Wexford).
• Calleary, Seán.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Clohessy, Peadar.
• Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cullimore, Séamus.
• Daly, Brendan.
• Davern, Noel.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dennehy, John.
• Ellis, John.
• Fahey, Frank.
• Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Flood, Chris.
• Flynn, Pádraig.
• Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
• Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Charles J.
• Hillery, Brian.
• Hilliard, Colm.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Kelly, Laurence.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Kirk, Séamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Leonard, Jimmy.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McDaid, Jim.
• McEllistrim, Tom.
• Molloy, Robert.
• Morley, P.J.
• Noonan, Michael J.
• (Limerick West).
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Ned.
• O'Kennedy, Michael.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• O'Toole, Martin Joe.
• Power, Seán.
• Quill, Máirín.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Roche, Dick.
• Smith, Michael.
• Stafford, John.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Tunney, Jim.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Wilson, John P.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

• Ahearn, Therese.
• Allen, Bernard.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Barry, Peter.
• Bell, Michael.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connor, John.
• Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Currie, Austin.
• D'Arcy, Michael.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Doyle, Joe.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Enright, Thomas W.
• Farrelly, John V.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Sullivan, Gerry.
• O'Sullivan, Toddy.
• Owen, Nora.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Fennell, Nuala.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kavanagh, Liam.
• Kemmy, Jim.
• Kenny, Enda.
• McCartan, Pat.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• Mac Giolla, Tomás.
• Mitchell, Gay.
• Mitchell, Jim.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael.
• (Limerick East).
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, Patrick J.
• Spring, Dick.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Ta, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan.

Question declared carried.

Bill reported without amendment.

An Ceann Comhairle

When is it proposed to take Report Stage?

Mr. Wilson

We could take it now.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

The Order of the House is that Committee Stage should be taken today and it has not been agreed when to take Report Stage. Therefore, I assume Report Stage will be taken with the agreement of the Whips.

Mr. Wilson

Yes, unless the Deputy wants to take it now.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

No, it would be very unwise to take it now. It would be better to wait for a more suitable and opportune time.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it there is no agreement when Report Stage will be taken? Perhaps the Minister will indicate when it will be taken?

Mr. Wilson

It will be taken next Tuesday, subject to the agreement of the Whips.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Report Stage ordered for Tuesday, 28 November 1989.