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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Dec 1989

Vol. 394 No. 4

Supplementary Estimates, 1989 (Resumed). - Vote 43: Energy.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £200,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1989, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of the Minister for Energy, including certain services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain loans, subsidies, grants and a grant-in-aid.

The supplementary sum of £200,000 which I am now seeking from the Dáil relates to the necessity for my Department, on certain occasions, to secure specialist external consultancy advice. The subhead in question is thus A2 and before I dwell on the particular consultancy assignment that gives rise to this Supplementary Estimate, I would like to explain to the House why my Department, more than most, have to go outside and secure the best specialist advice available in order to discharge their functions to the best advantage of the State generally and the taxpayer in particular.

It would not be overstating the case to state that the work of my Department is radically different in orientation to that of most other Government Departments. Routine administration takes somewhat of a back seat when you are dealing with natural resources and four or five different energy forms. The emphasis is very much on policy and the complexity and diversity of the issues involved will be obvious to all concerned, and I do not need to dwell on them here tonight. It will also be obvious that the magnitude of the resources involved — both potential and actual — are of such size that even the slightest gap in the State's knowledge and negotiating position could ultimately have a very detrimental impact on the economy. My Department's position in this regard has always been that very valuable national natural resources are entrusted in our care and it would be the height of irresponsibility to treat that responsibility lightly.

The Department of Energy is a small Department and we simply do not have all the expertise inside the Department to deal with the full range of eventualities and scenarios that we face. We could, of course, carry a greatly expanded departmental salary bill, many extra and pensionable professionals, but this would be a wasteful and expensive approach with no guarantee of meeting evolving short term or once-off requirements. We have, therefore, on occasions to go outside the public sector to secure the best expertise available. Almost by definition, the best expertise does not come cheaply but the cornerstone of our policy in this respect is that there is no point in saving a penny wisely if you are going to spend a pound foolishly. I think this policy has proved to be a very wise one over the years as witnessed by, for example, the excellent reports done in recent years on the electricity and gas sectors, and more recently the consultancy work which was performed on the sale of the State's shareholding in Tara Mines Limited. It is payment for this latter work which brings me to the House this evening seeking the supplementary sum of £200,000.

The House will recall that earlier this year my predecessor announced the successful disposal of the State shareholding and royalty entitlement in Tara Mines Limited for a global consideration of US$50 million. The total sum received into the Exchequer was IR£35,300,577. The State's professional adviser in the transaction was NCB Corporate Finance Limited and the fee agreed for the services in question was 1.5 per cent of the total consideration plus VAT. Accordingly a sum of IR£661,885 now falls due for payment.

To enable Deputies to appreciate what was involved in this transaction, I will briefly outline the wide ranging scope of the assignment. NCB assigned three senior executives full time to the task which covered an 18 month period from the beginning of 1988 to July of this year. They produced a very comprehensive report on the valuation of the State shareholding, royalty entitlement and certain other State rights and privileges. A lot of work was put into this valuation process, not least because the shares in question were not publicly quoted. Because there was no share price as such which would assist in the more typical take-over situation, we had to get our figures right and I am satisfied that we did. NCB also paid particular attention to the strengths and weaknesses of the State's negotiating position and on the negotiating tactics to be employed. The report formed the basis for the State's approach to the negotiations which resulted in agreement being reached on the figure of US$50 million after protracted negotiations. The compilation of the information for this detailed analysis involved the commissioning of independent research reports on metal prices and currency exchange rates from a number of internationally recognised firms. It also involved an exhaustive review of the Tara mining operation and of the company's relationship with the State under the mining lease and associated agreements and projection of the company's cash flow over the remaining life of the mine.

Preliminary negotiations commenced in August 1988. An opening offer was made by Outokumpu, holders of the majority 75 per cent shareholding in Tara Mines Limited but it was rejected. An improved offer was made in March 1989 and again rejected but in April an offer of US$50 million was accepted of which $37.5 million was to be paid on 30 June and the remainder in annual tranches over a five-year period. In fact, the outstanding US$12.5 million has since been paid over. NCB were actively involved in all stages of these negotiations.

NCB's solicitors subsequently drafted the various agreements necessary to give legal effect to the settlement reached and the company also put arrangements in place which enabled the full amount due to be brought to the credit of the Exchequer without any delay and well ahead of the five year time scale envisaged in the agreement.

The final outcome of the negotiations, as I have already pointed out, is that the Exchequer received US$50 million for the State shareholding and royalty in Tara Mines Limited, a substantial part of which will be used to upgrade the oil refinery facilities at Whitegate. It will be crystal clear from what I have said this evening that NCB played a very important role in this achievement and, indeed, it is agreed by all concerned that a settlement at the level reached would not have been achieved without their expertise and whole hearted commitment.

While the total cost of this consultancy assignment amounts to nearly £662,000, the supplementary sum which I am now seeking from the Dáil is less than a third of this figure. By utilising savings achieved on other consultancies in subhead A2, and savings in subhead E — Minerals Development — combined with additional receipts, the supplementary sum now being sought is £200,000. Leaving aside the unforeseen NCB assignment, my Department's need this year to secure specialist external consultancy advice has proved to be a good deal less than had been anticipated and this is particularly so in the case of the petroleum exploration side of my Department. We have saved £127,000 in this regard.

In relation to subhead E — Minerals Development — a saving of £88,000 has been identified against the 1989 provision of £150,000. This arises because an expected refund of royalty in respect of the Tynagh mining operation will not now take place this year. The 1990 Estimates make provision for such a repayment.

The additional receipts of £247,000 arise in two areas. Firstly, there is a general buoyancy in fees related to the petroleum exploration sector and this will yield £138,000 more than that estimated. Secondly, receipts from the EC in respect of the FEOGA western aid electrification scheme will amount to £1.213 million this year, £152,000 more than estimated. After offsetting these savings and extra receipts, the net figure involved is £200,000.

I commend this Supplementary Estimate to the House.

I think today's debate speaks volumes about the lack of powers of scrutiny in this House in relation to decisions of this nature. We had no opportunity to debate the decision to sell Tara Mines Limited either before or after that decision was made. The Committee of Public Accounts are supposed to examine Ministers on their accountability for spending, but have no powers to investigate whether this sale achieved value for money. The only decision this House was asked to make was to sanction work carried out by consultants, work which the House has not had the opportunity to see. We are relying on a couple of lines in the Minister's speech in which he refers to that work which cost over £600,000 for four-and-a-half man years, a fairly hefty fee to the consultants of over £150,000 per man year. I would like to see the work they did for that money.

We are in the Stone Age as far as accountability is concerned. The UK have changed their legislation and recently we saw the Comptroller and Auditor General condemn the price received for the sale of the Rover Company as being an inadequate return to the taxpayers for their shareholding in the company. I think we should have a situation where the Committee of Public Accounts could do the same. Instead we have to nod through the payment to consultants for their work. We are Dickensian in our approach. I question seriously whether we got value for money. The Minister obtained US $50 million, approximately IR£35 million for two items which he sold — (1) 25 per cent share in the company and (2) all royalties, past, present and future. Those royalties stemmed from 1978 through to 1989 and for at least another 20 years' life of the mine, and are paid at 4½ per cent of the profits being earned.

The Minister or his predecessors sought payment of £5 million for the royalties for the period 1978-1984. Those years were not very profitable for the company and the subsequent years 1985 to 1989 would have been, at least, equally good and yielded another similar demand of about £5 million by the Irish Government. Taking those two periods together that £10 million was for the first third of the mine, the remaining two-thirds of the mine were still to come. We must bear in mind that since they were related to profits, the remaining two-thirds of the mine would have been likely to yield the Government a much better royalty return because the company would have written off their fixed investment in the early years of the life of the mine and would have been coming into profitability in the latter part. Added to that, zinc prices rose and are considerably better now than they were in the earlier part of the life of this mine.

Taking the full life of the mine, I reckon that the State could have expected to get about £40 million in royalties. What do we find? The Minister sold the royalties for £11 million. That was the proportion of the overall £35 million that was attributable to the royalties. By no stretch of the imagination, even if the demand of £5 million for 1978-84 was in some way overstated, could we have reduced the royalty over the 30 year life of that mine to a mere £11 million. I admit there were difficulties in hammering out exactly what was the base against which the royalty calculation would be made but I find it difficult to believe — and I would need very considerable convincing in this House — that those difficulties were of such magnitude that we would have to settle for £11 million.

The second item which was sold was the shareholding. I reckon that the after-tax profits in this company up to the end of 1989 were over £32 million on the basis of the figures which the Minister's predecessor provided at the time of the sale for past profitability in this company. The Irish Government's share on that basis would appear to be about £8 million for the profits which have already been earned in the company and the remaining two-thirds of the mine are likely to yield a better performance. It would seem to me that we could have expected well over £30 million for our shareholding in this company. Again, we find that the Minister agreed to far less than that figure. Both the Minister and his predecessor sought to justify his sale by reference to the purchase price which Outokumpu paid in 1986 for the 75 per cent share of the mine. According to the Minister's own figures which I quote from the Official Report, they paid $90 million at that stage. The State's 25 per cent share compared with 25 per cent for the company would have been about $30 million. The point that must be made is that Tara at that time were sustaining losses; they were trading unprofitably. There has been an enormous increase in zinc prices since then. The fact that the Minister sold this year our share for $34 million, a mere $4 million more than the 1986 valuation, would suggest a very poor recognition of the dramatically changed circumstances that are affecting Tara at present.

One other item of evidence I suggest would argue that we have been sold a pup in this area. At the time this Government sold their shareholding, the market was valuing 0.7 million tonnes of payable zinc in the Galmoy find at £39 million. The Government's quarter share in 4.5 million tonnes of payable zinc at Tara would, on that valuation, be worth £60 million. That leaves aside the royalties that were rolled up in this deal. On the face of it, we should not be asked to sanction, on the nod, the payment of £600,000 to consultants for what I consider was a bad bit of work for the taxpayer. I would like in the brief time that is left to me——

The Deputy has three minutes.

——to turn to another point which only gets passing reference in this Estimate and that is the Valoren Programme. It strikes me that we have been very poorly served by the Minister's two predecessors in the whole area of conservation policy. This is one area where the future generations will judge that we have sorely neglected our responsibilities. We have absolutely no strategy for conservation. The Government have cut back their commitment dramatically in this area. I was somewhat encouraged to hear the Minister say he saw some sense in bringing forward a strategy but it was pathetic to hear that all he had in mind was a pilot study to see how his own offices were being heated and maintained. That is not a conservation strategy. We are well beyond the time when one runs pilot studies in one's own Department buildings. The position is that numerous international agencies have been into this country. We have had assessments of Government buildings, we have had assessments of combined heat and power and we have had assessments of the energy intensity of Irish industry, all of which indicate that we are well out of line. We are using 25 per cent more energy in industry per pound produced than is European industry. The Government could, on existing technology, save 20 per cent of their bills for heating and lighting in their own Department buildings. We have criminally neglected combined heat and power. We have very large industries in Ireland, for example, NET, Aughinish and Whitegate — the Minister's own responsibility — which surely could adopt combined heat and power systems and use very economically our natural gas resource. These opportunities have been left entirely untouched. I urge the Minister to give more serious thought to the use of Valoren money and the money that succeeds it to have a decent conservation strategy for this country.

At the outset, I confess to having some difficulties in complying with the Minister's request that the House accept his request to sanction this Estimate of additional funds for the Department of Energy. It is not as if the Minister was coming in here to write a blank cheque, in fact, he is looking for an endorsement of a cheque that was written many months ago. I have to question some aspects of what the Minister has outlined to us in his statement here this evening.

My first question relates to the sum of £661,885 which falls due for payment to NCB Corporate Finance LImited for services offered to the Department in relation to advising and negotiating the deal with Outokumpu for the disposal of the Government's share in Tara mines. I want to question the Minister in relation to the choice of consultants, in relation to what procedures were undergone before these consultants were brought into the Department and in relation to what expertise these consultants were offering which was not available to the Department internally or which had not been made available previously to the Department in relation to dealings with the minerals section of the Department. I hope the Minister can clarify what previous experience the three senior executives who were assigned full time to work for the Department on this deal for an 18 month period had in dealing with the acquisition or disposal of State assets in the mining industry or if they had ever been involved in negotiations of this sort before.

I would also like the Minister to give some information on how the fee was agreed because the Minister and the Department would have been in a very strong position to dictate it. A far more resonable fee could have been negotiated in relation to those who would have been available and willing to take on that sort of employment. The 1.5 per cent may sound like a small sum but, given the large disposal sum on the mine, it obviously amounted to a very large sum for 18 months' work for three senior executives. The Department could have dictated a far more reasonable sum for the taxpayer to bear. Perhaps the Minister would give an indication of the consultants' experience and what they had been involved in previously in relation to mining which might assuage the suspicions and fears surrounding this contract.

I also have to ask what amount of work was done on behalf of the Department of Energy because my recollection is that most, if not all the facts — other than a certain amount of updating — would have been available to Minister Molloy's predecessor and his officials in the Department in relation to the ongoing saga of the Tara-Bula negotiations and discussions. All the information was available and all the valuations of the reserves in the mine had been done. I cannot, for the life of me, understand what was required in relation to a comprehensive report because in relation to the valuation of the mine it was only necessary to take down books from the shelf. There are people in the Department of Energy with far more experience in relation to mining and the valuation of mines than the people who were brought in from NCB Finance Limited. What new information was made available to the Department which was not there already? I accept that some indexation and additional valuations were necessary but not enough to warrant consultancy fees for 18 months at around £200,000 per head per annum.

In relation to the payment, perhaps the Minister will clarify whether a sum of 35 per cent has been retained by the Department in relation to retention tax? If that is the case it would put more respectability on the payment because my understanding is that retention tax is deduction from payment by the State to consultants and people working for it. As a matter of public interest, the Minister should inform the House whether this has been done.

It is very difficult to know if we got value for money. Some of us believe that we did not in relation to the royalties due and those which have been due for a considerable period, since the development of the mine. I suspect that the opportunity to get rid of a nagging and ongoing problem — one which, in retrospect, prior to Outokumpu's involvement, the Department of Energy had received very little co-operation on from the owners of the Tara Mine — involved more enthusiasm than wisdom in getting rid of the State's interest in the mine.

Looking at the differential and the improvement in zinc values from the time of the Outokumpu purchase of Tara's interest until the time of the State's disposal of its interest, I, like Deputy Bruton, am of the opinion that we did not get current day values in relation to the mine's worth. Obviously there is little we can do now because the Minister is really coming in here to do a lap of honour in relation to the money that has been committed and spent. Needless to say, contracts have been signed.

I should also like some clarification in relation to the contract because even though there are staff shortages in the offices of the Attorney General and the State Solicitor, I should like the Minister to explain why outside solicitors were engaged in drawing up the contract. I know from my own experience that the Attorney General's office is very well versed in the intricacies of State mining and in the interests of Tara. I would have thought it was well within the competence of the legal officers in the Attorney General's office and — needless to say — within the Attorney General's own competence, to draw up the necessary contracts. It is surprising that an outside consultancy brought in their own firm of solicitors. Perhaps the Minister will tell us the name of the legal firm who drew up the contracts because it should be a matter of public record. I should like the Minister to name them in the House and to say why the Attorney General's office were not engaged in doing this work. I know from my own experience in the Department of Energy that the Attorney General's office had day-to-day involvement, over a considerable period, in matters of this kind and would have been totally versed in the question of the disposal of the State's interest in this contract. Obviously the work was not put out to tender by the Minister and what happened in regard to the disposal to Outokumpu still leaves a bad taste in relation to the conduct of mining in this country right from the start of the Tara-Bula saga. We have lost out badly in this regard and the opportunity to salvage anything has gone forever.

I should like the Minister to address some of the questions I put to him because his initial statement leaves more unsaid than said in relation to looking for a Supplementary Estimate of £200,000 — a substantial sum of money — and the sanction of the House for a sum of £661,805 to consultants.

In many ways it is fitting that the taxpayer in respect of this entire matter should receive one last slap in the face because the saga of the Tara Mines experience has been of insulting proportions to the taxpayer who has been ripped off since the first exploitation of that mine.

It is necessary to make a point which has not been made by Deputies Bruton or Spring concerning the original arrangement which provided for an annual royalty of 4.5 per cent on the profits of the ore extracted from this mine. After spending years complaining that we had no resources in this country we found we were in possession of the largest lead zinc deposit in Europe and the best we could manage was a 25 per cent stake and a disastrously flawed lease which allowed Tara Mines, as they then were, to pay us — or not pay us as it turned out — a 4.5 per cent levy on profits rather than on ore extracted. It was a disastrous error. I realise it is easy to be wise with the benefit of hindsight but I am one of a number of people who was concerned at that time, with colleagues from the Labour Party and The Workers' Party, in what was called the resources protection campaign and we predicted that error then and argued for the retention of that very valuable mine in public ownership. It did not happen. What we are asked to approve this evening retrospectively constitutes really the final slap in the face for the taxpayer.

Tara Mines commenced operations in 1978 and managed until 1982 — through managing their capital allowance entitlements and so on — to declare that no royalty was payable. When the State tried to levy such royalty it was disputed by the company on a number of grounds, including whether the losses from one year could be carried forward to another year. They went further, in the dispute with the State, to extend the area of disagreement into those concerning the deductibility of exchange losses on foreign loans, deductibility of interest on loans, the timing of capital allowances and so on. Anybody could have known that any multinational company could use the legal mechanisms there without any difficulty to contrive not to show a profit and to leave the taxpayer from the wealthiest ore deposit in Europe with nothing but the jobs that are being provided in the town of Navan. In my view that constituted one of the most serious errors ever made in the management of the affairs of this country. Our being asked to pass this Supplementary Estimate this evening simply rubs salt into that wound.

I had an opportunity some morning last week, as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, to visit the mine at Navan. During our discussions with Outokumpu we were given certain minimal information but, so far, more than we managed to get from the Department of Energy although we will be returning to our examination of the Accounting Officer. According to Outokumpu the $50 million referred to consists of two separate elements — $33.4 million for the shares and $16.6 million for the royalties — as Deputies Richard Bruton and Spring have said — past and future. I did not know about the introduction of this estimate until today but on the basis of the information and advice available to me, I should like to have had more opportunity to adduce certain evidence here because that was a lousy deal for the taxpayer, measured by any yardstick. The Outokumpu people confirmed that there is approximately two-thirds life expectancy of the mine remaining which does indeed bear out the contention that it is the largest lead zinc deposit in Europe. They suggested a life expectancy of 17 to 19 years; equally that could be 25 years. They suggested 47 to 49 million tonnes of ore remaining; again, as we know, it could well exceed that. For example, between 1977 and 1986 that mine produced and exported some 4.25 million tonnes of lead and zinc concentrate at a value of £608 million but the manner of the granting of the lease ensured that we could never claw back any royalty for that. I should make the point that, of course, the State finally became so frustrated in attempting to extract some payment for the taxpayer it ended up throwing its hands up in the air and surrendering to Outokumpu because it was not possible to work out with Tara Mines any reasonable share of the take. Eventually we ended up selling it in what, in my view, was the sale of the century. Having done that, having been forced to dispose of it — because we could not get any decent share for the taxpayer — what happens? The £33.4 million for the shares ended up costing us now, in consultancy fees, over £500,000, which is in excess of £1.5 million of the value got for the shares.

I am interested in the Minister's presentation of the figures here. I must say they differ dramatically, unrecongnisably from the view taken by the Minister's former colleague, Deputy Pat O'Malley, inside and outside this House earlier this year.

We should be slow to refer to former Members of this House.

I am slow to do so but I submit that this information——

It is normal practice.

I submit that this information is on the record of the House.

That may be so.

I submit that the gentleman in question sought to question the Minister of the day on the value for money, on whether this had been put out to tender, having regard to the fact that Outokumpu was the sole purchaser, whether this kind of expenditure was necessary and then put forward the information that, according to other stockbroking sources and to research conducted by the Progressive Democrats on this exercise, the cost would have been £120,000 or 0.35 per cent of the value got for the State's stake in Tara mines. That is so unrecognisably different from what the Minister has put forward this evening I must presume he is disowning his former colleagues and defending blatant croneyism because that is what is at stake here.

The Deputy's time is almost up. He might now bring his speech to a conclusion.

Before I do I want to make quite clear that this is a blatant case of croneyism, a case of using the Fianna Fáil bankers, the principal of which — NCB — is a close associate of the Taoiseach, handing out a contract at exorbitant rates. To a man who I understand aspires now to be president of all the Europeans I would respectfully suggest that — while he is working on the reunification of Germany — nowhere in the corruption in the GDR régime will he find anything to rank on a par with the handing over of this amount of money to one of his croneys to put a valuation on a stake that belonged to the State, and which we were forced to sell out because of our inability to extract any share from Tara Mines at the time. It is a disgrace that we should now be called to approve that retrospectively. It constitutes a disgraceful page in our history.

The Minister for Energy must now be called. The Minister has five minutes only——

I should like to thank those Members who contributed.

One of the difficulties of dealing with a Supplementary Estimate of this kind — in respect of which a valuation has been put on something — is that it is fair game for people, who have not access to the exact information, to allow their imaginations range over the whole field. I heard some extraordinary figures pulled out of the sky here this evening. I was surprised at Deputy Richard Bruton — whom one would have thought would have some knowledge in this area — entering into that game. All the same it is a fact that exaggerated claims have been made.

Would the Minister care to lay the consultancy report before the House?

I recognise the point the Deputy made in regard to accountability and the non-availability to other Members of the House of the full facts. Under the present rules and regulations that apply, in such circumstances, it is not possible for me to make that information available to Members.

Will that information be made available to the Committee of Public Accounts?

I can only give them this assurance: they recongnise that I was not in the Department at that time and that I would bring a fairly independent mind to bear on what I saw.

In regard to the amount achieved by way of this particular sale — the US $50 million — it is fair to say that a good deal was done for the State. I have very good reason for saying that and I hope that Members on the other side have some trust in my judgement on that matter, not having reason to make any claims otherwise.

Deputy Bruton claimed that the Department had put a valuation of £4.5 million on the royalties for the period 1978 to 1984. The Department were in a negotiating position. They were in a difficulty in that the original agreement with the Revenue Commissioners which allowed the royalties to be based upon a percentage of corporation profits meant it was quite difficult to know exactly the figure for profits. From what I can judge, a lengthy dispute might have been entered into on this matter which might even involve court cases and further expense for the State.

I want to tell the House that the Revenue Commissioners were asked by the Department of Energy to prepare profit and royalty computations and they confirmed the view expressed in March 1987 that there was a strong possibility that no royalty would be payable for the years 1978-84 inclusive. They estimated that with cumulative corporation profit tax on profits from 1985-88 of approximately £51 million the royalty would be of the order of £2.3 million. It was stressed that this was a highly optimistic figure and that £1.5 million would be a far more likely figure. That was the Revenue Commissioners' estimate. The realistic royalty expectations in respect of the period 1978-88 were estimated by the Revenue Commissioners to range in the region of £1.5 million to £2.3 million but that was not brought to a conclusion because the negotiations for the sale were entered into at a later date. It is important to put that on the record and to try to kill the notion that elaborate figures would be available to the State had it held out.

The arrangement under which the royalties were decided had worked very successfully in the case of previous mining operations, notably in the case of Tynagh. It now transpires that the company who were mining at Tynagh overpaid the royalties and at present the State are repaying some small amounts to them. These are amounts they had paid on account which turned out not to have been due following the Revenue Commissioners' final computation of the amounts. The arrangement had worked successfully in that case but it certainly did not work successfully in the case of Tara Mines who ran into a series of difficulties when no profits were determined for years. Obviously there were difficult and complex arguments to be worked out before a final decision could be arrived at as to what exactly would have been due in relation to royalties.

I have studied the estmates made by NCB who, in the opinion of the trusted senior officials of the Department, gave excellent service as regards the expertise they brought to bear in making the assessment and carrying out the task that they were asked to do by the State. Their work was of an outstanding nature and I would like to thank them for it. The sum seems to be a large one but in a case such as this it is important from the Minister's point of view to encourage the optimum sale price. Other systems of remuneration could have been used which would have scaled down the percentage payable to the consultants as the figure became higher but with that kind of remuneration system the incentive is not there for the consultants to seek the highest possible price. On balance, one has to accept that the price achieved was considered outstanding in the circumstances.

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister but I feel bound to tell him that the time available to him is well nigh exhausted.

Give him a chance to answer the questions. The cock crowed three times. Where is Pat O'Malley now?

Deputy O'Malley, no more than myself in Opposition — we were members of the same party — did not have access to the information ——

That is what he says here.

——which I have access to in regard to the work that was done by the companies that were employed. The name of the solicitors concerned is Goodbody. On the point made by Deputy Spring about payment of withholding tax, payment has not yet been made and we are following the correct course and seeking Dáil approval first. Withholding tax at 32 per cent of the VAT exclusive price will be deducted. I do not know if I have time to answer any other questions here.

When will the report be made available?

Some Members of the House know that when the US $50 million was divided into the amount for the sale and the amount for royalties, $16.6 million was the amount computed for royalty purposes.

I must now put the question.

What mining experience did the consultants have?

Obviously the company that were selling would have had extensive mining experience but, as the Deputy will appreciate, the Department of Energy would also have their own in-house experience — I think he referred to that.

He has some experience of creative accounting as well.

Yes. Deputy Spring in particular should be very familiar with the extent of the staff in the Department. I am surprised he thinks it was remiss to bring in expertise when it was considered necessary.

I am asking what mining experience had the people who were brought in. Who were they and what experience had they?

Outside mining experience was brought in to help the people in the Department. It is important to know that Outokumpu brought in London experts to argue their case. In the circumstances, the team of experts put together by NCB and the Department did a job which was successful in the amount that it achieved.

Why does the Minister not state the real reason for the change of experts? The matter is all too close.

There is an obligation on the Chair to adhere to the allocation of time motion as passed by this House. I must now put the question.

Vote put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 64; Níl, 57.

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finnucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Boylan.
Question declared carried.
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