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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jan 1990

Vol. 394 No. 8

Order of Business.

It is proposed to take Nos. 10 and 11. By agreement, there will be no Private Members' Business this week.

In respect of the Order of Business——

There is no agreement on the Order of Business. My party colleague, the Chief Whip, made it clear at the Whips' meeting last Thursday that we would not agree to the Order of Business because it does not provide time today for a debate on the health issues. Since the Government have not been forthcoming in relation to a debate of this kind, I formally inform the Taoiseach that, from this moment, my party will not be involved in any co-operation in the ordering of business of the House, nor will they grant any pairs for Ministers or anybody else on the Opposition benches.

(Interruptions.)

If that creates any difficulties for the Government, they have only themselves to thank for their obduracy and refusal to allow this House to debate an issue which the Taoiseach said last June he did not understand and which, clearly, he does not understand today. If the Government find themselves in difficulty they may blame nobody but themselves. The public will know that the Government are creating the problem by their own inability to clearly see the problems facing us.

Deputy Dukes has made his point, I call Deputy Spring.

May I refer to the subject matter of my request under Standing Order 30? Will the Taoiseach grant a two-hour debate on the difficulties in relation to the civil legal aid scheme? If the Taoiseach will not agree, I will call a vote on the Order of Business because we object to it.

This is the greatest show of the Deputy's life.

(Interruptions.)

Government and Opposition parties in this House over a long period of years have had their disagreements over the priority of business and the making available of time for debates. I have always sought to make time available to reasonable demands from the Opposition for debates on important issues, and the record shows that. However, in my long experience in this House this is the first time that the time-honoured tradition which makes the conduct of Government business — particularly on the external front — possible, has been broken by the main Opposition party in pursuance of purely party political interests.

That is not true. When I was Government Chief Whip the Taoiseach ordered Deputy Bertie Ahern on the floor of this House to cancel a pairing, so do not give me that rubbish.

It has always been possible for the Opposition to seek time for a debate on any matter.

We have done that.

This Government — or any Government worthy of the name — could not possibly succumb to the sort of blackmailing tactics——

——now being engaged in by Deputy Dukes and the Fine Gael Party.

That is arrogance.

It is not arrogance.

We were all elected.

Deputy Barrett persists in interrupting from a seated position. If he wants to make an orderly interjection, he should rise in his place to do so.

The mechanism whereby the Government are facilitated to carry out their necessary obligations and duties abroad is traditional in this House——

The Taoiseach did not facilitate us when he was in Opposition.

Is the Deputy also denying me my right to speak in this House?

The Taoiseach should give us an opportunity to debate the health services.

May I remind the House that Members have a right to speak here and to be heard?

That is what we are looking for.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach is shielding his Minister.

What is the Taoiseach afraid of? He bought Jackie Fahey——

Will Deputy Barrett repeat that statement?

I listened to Deputy Dukes in silence when he made his case but now it appears that Fine Gael do not want to give me an opportunity to explain my position as head of the Government. I am entitled to do that. If Deputy Barrett cannot have manners he knows what he can do.

The Taoiseach should not misrepresent the facts.

Let us maintain the dignity and decorum of the House.

We can have our arguments and discussions in the House and we are prepared to try to meet all reasonable requests from the Opposition to discuss matters of urgency or major public importance. We have shown our good faith in that over recent years but I cannot accept that any party in the House can attempt to impose their will in this way by departing from an essential requirement of the workings of the House, and particularly in our relations abroad, by denying Government Ministers pairs when going abroad on official business. I cannot accept that.

The Taoiseach has a short memory.

I am prepared to listen to any other proposals put forward but I cannot accept being dictated to in that way. I apologise to Deputy Spring in that I did not hear what his question was.

I asked the Taoiseach, in relation to the Chair's refusal to allow me to have a discussion under Standing Order 30 on my motion concerning the provision of resources for the free legal aid service, to amend the Order of Business so that the House can sit until 10.30 p.m. tonight to allow a two-hour debate on the free legal aid scheme.

We should have a debate on the health services.

I want to suggest to Deputy Spring that I am quite prepared to facilitate him perhaps next week sometime on that issue. I do not think it is so urgent that we need interrupt our business today.

It is urgent; members of the board have resigned.

The budget debate will start tomorrow and every Deputy will have an opportunity in the course of that debate to make any case he or she wishes in regard to matters of that kind. I am quite prepared to facilitate the House, if there is a wish for it between the Whips, to have a special debate on the legal aid system some time next week.

What about a debate on the health services?

The Taoiseach should get his priorities right.

In regard to the decision not to have Private Members' Business tonight I should like to say that the House, in view of the points made about the health services, should sit beyond 8.30 p.m. tonight for a debate on those services. I should like to ask the Taoiseach to reconsider his decision to ignore what is a widespread concern among the public in regard to the health services. In view of the fact that we are unable to have this urgent debate under Standing Order 30, I should like to ask the Taoiseach to indicate that he is prepared to allow the Government Chief Whip to talk to the other Whips to arrange that debate.

This is political shadow-boxing. We are about to embark on a major debate on the budget and that debate will provide every Deputy with plenty of opportunities to say what they wish to say on the health services, or any other public service. Secondly, there is a motion on the health services scheduled for Private Members' Business very shortly and I do not believe there is any genuineness in this attempt to force the Government's hand in this way, particularly on the eve of the most important business of the year, namely the financial budget.

I appeal to Deputy Dukes to be brief on this occasion.

The Taoiseach, and the Government, have knowingly and wilfully entered into this situation. We have been asking for a debate on our health services since 7 January——

Boring——

——in order to allow the House to deal with those matters in advance of the budget and so that we could have a reaction on budgetary policy and on management policy that will meet the problems that all of us see every day of the week throughout the country. The Government have refused to do that and in the face of that refusal the parties in the House, and my party in particular, must use the instruments that the House puts at their disposal. I will listen to no sanctimoniousness from the Taoiseach, from his Minister of State nor, indeed, from the Tánaiste, everyone of whom in the past have gone out of their way on issues of far less importance than this to obstruct the work that was being done by a Government between 1982 and 1987.

Question put: "That there be no Private Members' Business this week".
The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 75.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Foxe, Tom.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • MacGiolla, Tomás.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and Howlin.
Question declared carried.

I intimated earlier to certain Deputies who wished to raise matters on the Adjournment, despite the lateness of the hour, that I would facilitate them.

Because of the decision of the Minister for the Environment to ban the burning of bituminous coal and his refusal to confirm the smoke control zone area orders for Dublin areas A and B and the Neilstown area, A and B, I would like to raise on the Adjournment the implications for conversion and grant assistance for people living in those areas.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

With your permission I would like to raise on the Adjournment the impending closure of the Skerries Shirt Company in Skerries and in Blackrock involving the loss of 160 jobs and to ascertain what action the IDA are taking in the matter.

I will be in touch with the Deputy concerning the matter.

May I raise on the Adjournment the danger to life, property and employment as a result of the storm on 16 December 1989 which has left part of the town of Arklow and the seafront in Bray vulnerable to further storms and flooding?

I will communicate with Deputy Kavanagh.

I would like to raise on the Adjournment the cash crisis in the civil legal aid scheme.

I will communicate with Deputy Flanagan.

May I raise on the Adjournment the future of the national youth information centres?

The Ceann Comhairle's office will communicate with Deputy Deenihan.

I would like to raise on the Adjournment the conditions being experienced by women prisoners at Mountjoy.

The Ceann Comhairle's office will communicate with the Deputy.

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I wish to raise on the Adjournment the future of the Skerries shirt factory. I join with my colleague, Deputy Owen, in the hope that we will get a discussion on this important item this evening.

The Ceann Comhairle's Office will Communicate with the Deputy.

I seek your permission to raise on the Adjournment the incident at Athy where three gardaí, three civilians and three others were shot when gardaí opened fire?

The officials must record the requests of Deputies to raise matters on the Adjournment. I appeal to those groups who are having their own meetings in the House to desist and allow us proceed in an orderly fashion with what is proper to the House.

With your permission I would like to raise on the Adjournment the considerable concern being expressed all over the country about the gassing of badgers on the grounds that they are responsible for the spreading of bovine TB.

The Ceann Comhairle's office will communicate with the Deputy.

I seek the permission of the Ceann Comhairle to raise on the Adjournment the result of the storm damage in Kilmore Quay and other parts of south County Wexford and the loss of livelihood to fishermen arising therefrom.

The Ceann Comhairle's office will communicate with Deputy Howlin.

With your permission I seek to raise on the adjournment the current status of proposals to construct a second level college at Jobstown in my constituency.

The Ceann Comhairle's Office will communicate with the Deputy.

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