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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 20 Feb 1990

Vol. 395 No. 9

Private Members' Business. - Free Legal Aid: Motion

I move:

That Dáil Éireann condemns the failure of the Government to provide adequate resources to enable the civil legal aid scheme to be properly developed and expanded. Nothing with concern the present crisis which has led to a virtual collapse of the service, Dáil Éireann calls on the Government to provide an additional allocation to enable all existing centres to deal with their backlog of work and to ensure for the future the provision of a comprehensive range of services, and furthermore calls on the Government to enact the relevant legislation to place the civil legal aid scheme on a statutory basis, based on the principle that all those in need of civil legal aid but who cannot afford it will have access to it.

In December 1974, a committee under Mr. Justice Pringle was established to examine the question of access to law for the underprivileged and to make recommendations as to the type of scheme which would be most appropriate to tackle this problem. The committee reported three years later.

They advocated the introduction by statute of a comprehensive scheme of legal advice and aid to be administered by an independent board appointed by the Government. In addition to administering the scheme, the board would have responsibility for educating the public as to their legal rights and for evaluating the results of their work. Legal services would be provided by lawyers employed in community law centres, supplemented by lawyers in private practice, and the service would be means tested.

The comprehensive scheme was never implemented. Eleven months after its publication the Government were before the European Court of Human Rights defending a claim by Mrs. Josey Airey that the State's failure to provide a scheme of civil legal aid amounted to a violation of her rights under the European Convention. The Court ultimately ruled in favour of Mrs. Airey, holding that the State had:

an obligation to take such positive action as might be necessary in order to secure an effective right of access to the Courts.

It is important to note here that what was established in the European Court was a right, a right of every citizen irrespective of income. In December 1979, the Minister for Justice laid before the Oireachtas a scheme of civil legal aid and advice and the first Legal Aid Board was appointed. State funded services were first provided in August 1980.

In 1980, seven law centres in all were opened, two in Dublin and one centre in Limerick, Cork, Waterford, Sligo and Galway. In early 1981 there were 24 solicitors in all working in the seven law centres. By 1983 there were two extra law centres, one in Dublin and one in Cork and there were 33 solicitors employed altogether. At present there are 12 law centres, four in Dublin, two in Cork, one in Limerick, one in Waterford, one in Sligo, one in Galway, one in Tralee and one in Athlone and there are 28 solicitors altogether employed.

There are well over 3,000 solicitors in the country altogether which means that these 28 solicitors comprise less than 1 per cent of the solicitors in the country. It is a scandalous and ludicrous situation to have about one-third of the population dependent on one per cent of the solicitors in the country. This is even more ludicrous when one appreciates that the 28 Legal Aid Board solicitors spend a lot of their time travelling enormous distances to part-time clinics and courthouses, wasting valuable time which could be more productively used, and wasting money in travelling and subsistence expenses.

The following example will highlight how ridiculous and ludicrous the present scheme is, particularly for people living outside the major cities and it will also highlight how public expenditure is being wasted. A husband and a wife living in Buncrana, County Donegal, have a matrimonial case which is pending in the District Court in Buncrana. Both are dependent on social welfare and both are financially eligible for legal aid. If the wife makes inquiries about legal aid she will be told that she can go along to the law centre in Sligo or, alternatively, go along to the part-time clinic in Letterkenny which operates once a month and which is run by the law centre in Sligo. The wife will, therefore, have to travel to Sligo or to Letterkenny. If the wife is seen in Letterkenny the solicitor in Sligo will have to travel up to see her, thus wasting the best part of the day travelling when he or she could be more productively at work back in the law centre in Sligo and thus also clocking up mileage expenses and subsistence expenses to be paid by the taxpayer.

Assuming the wife consults the Sligo law centre, or its part-time clinic in Letterkenny, the husband cannot do likewise because of a conflict of interest. If he wants legal aid he will have to apply to the law centre in Galway and the solicitor in Galway will travel to the law centre in Sligo to see him, once again wasting valuable time and incurring enormous expense to the taxpayer. When the case comes for hearing, or even if it has to be adjourned, the solicitor for the wife in Sligo and the solicitor for the husband in Galway will have to travel up from their respective law centres to Buncrana, once again wasting time and incurring enormous expenses to the taxpayer. What is happening in these situations — and they are by no means unusual — is that those who are entitled to apply and obtain legal aid are not doing so because of the hassle involved.

At present the law centres in Dublin and many other law centres around the country are only taking on cases of a very urgent nature and urgent cases generally mean situations of serious physical domestic violence, child abuse and kidnapping. If, therefore, one's case is not of an extremely urgent nature it will not be taken on, though the applicant will usually be offered an appointment some three weeks to two months later. Quite understandably, if somebody is offered an appointment weeks or months in advance he or she more often than not will not turn up.

The people who are being seriously affected by the present crisis can be divided into two categories: those who never get to see a legal aid solicitor, and those who do manage to get to see a legal aid solicitor. Those who never get to see a legal aid solicitor are those whose cases are not urgent and who are not prepared to wait several weeks or months for an appointment; those who do not pass the very stringent means test; and those who are put off by the stigma and bureaucracy attached to the means test. There are those who do not bother to apply for legal aid because the nearest law centre is 60 or 70 miles away or more such as in the Buncrana case I already referred to, and there are those whose type of case does not come within the scope of the scheme for example defamation, social welfare or labour law cases.

Those who do manage to get to see a legal aid solicitor are applicants whose case is of an extremely urgent nature in accordance with the Legal Aid Board's criteria. They will generally get to see a legal aid solicitor without too much delay and will generally be provided with a good service by a competent solicitor though, or course, such an applicant could encounter other difficulties associated with the scheme such as the law centre being 60 or 70 miles away from his home, the stigma attached to the means test, etc.

Then there are those whose cases are not urgent and who are prepared to wait many weeks or months for an appointment. A typical example of such a person would be somebody with a matrimonial problem. Even though such a person could be living in an intolerable situation, that person's case will not be treated as an urgent case if there is no serious violence, child abuse, or threat of kidnapping.

If such a person sees a solicitor and the solicitor endeavours to sort things out by way of a separation agreement but fails, the solicitor cannot do any more, that is to say, the solicitor cannot apply for legal aid, which means getting a legal aid certificate for a court case because the case is not of an urgent nature. The Legal Aid Board are only processing legal aid certificates in urgent cases. The solicitor who takes on such a case, which is a very typical case has his hands tied. If he cannot conclude an amicable settlement by way of a separation agreement or otherwise, then there is nothing more he can do because he cannot institute court proceedings. Solicitors in private practice acting on the opposite side of such a case are in a position to do much better for their client because they know that the legal aid solicitor on the other side has his or her hands tied.

Overall control of policy remains vested in the Government rather than the board. The power of amending the scheme is vested in the Minister for Justice and expansion in terms of staff numbers or law centres can take place only with the consent of the Government. There is a heavy representation of civil servants on the board.

When dealing with the functions of the board the Pringle report had attached considerable importance to the requirement that the board should publicise the legal aid scheme. They said that research abroad had shown that, even where a legal aid scheme had been in existence for many years, a high proportion of people in poor financial circumstances were either unaware of its existence or did not understand what it involved. Accordingly, one of the specific functions given to the board was the arrangement of suitable publicity concerning this scheme. However, in their first year the board reported that they felt it would be wrong to invite the public to avail themselves of a service which was already overstretched and which was not being provided with the resources to meet the extra demand which would be generated by the publicity. No publicity campaign has been engaged in since 1980.

FLAC, the voluntary free legal aid centres, have stated that the vast majority of callers to their 'phone-in service were unaware of the existence of the State scheme. The board have been described as providing one of the State's secret services. The failure adequately to publicise the existence of the scheme may of itself amount to a breach of the European Convention obligation to take any necessary positive action in order to secure an effective right of access to the courts.

The board are, and have been from the outset, seriously under-funded. The crisis now facing the civil legal aid service was an entirely predictable one — it was predicted by the Legal Aid Board in each of their annual reports since the establishment of the scheme in 1979.

The Department of Justice seek to place this in the context of overall public expenditure control. In an article on "The Civil Legal Aid Scheme — Scope and Operation", published in the Gazette of the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland, 4 April 1989, Timothy Dalton, formerly deputy chief executive of the Legal Aid Board and now Assistant Secretary of the Department of Justice, wrote as follows:

There is a general awareness that the main difficulty faced by the Chief Legal Aid Scheme is the lack of resources necessary to provide a nationwide service. The Board has been delivering this message in its annual reports over the years and the matter has also been the subject of comment in the media and elsewhere.

Limited funds for public services are of course nothing new at the present time — it is part of the process of putting public finances generally in shape and the Board fully recognises this. The Board has also recognised that, despite the restrictions on Exchequer funding generally in recent years, it was fortunate to be in the position of actually expanding the service during 1985 and 1986.

The board's statement on which the above passage seems to have been based was made in their annual report for 1986, the last report to be published and dated March 1988. Under the heading "Failure to Meet Demand" what the board actually said, at paragraph 3.4 was:—

But of course, the primary reason for the inability of the legal aid service to meet, the demands made on it is that the financial resources necessary to respond to the demand have not been made available. The Board appreciates that an inadequacy of funds to run essential public services is nothing new at the present time and that many would see it as part of the price that has to be paid for putting the public finances in better shape.

However, it has always made the case — and continues to do so — that the situation of the Civil Legal Aid service differs from others in that it came into being just at the time when pressures on public funds became acute. It has not, therefore, been a case of cutting back on an existing provision which was deemed over-generous, but of having a completely undeveloped service caught up in a general policy of public expenditure containment.

In reality, there never was a national legal aid service from which cutbacks could be expected; the service was strangled at birth. As I said earlier, there are now 28 solicitors employed by the board, fewer than some firms in Dublin. Remember, to keep this in perspective, there are 3,500 solicitors in private practice in Ireland.

There are 12 full-time centres; the board estimate that at least 33 are required. There are six centres outside Dublin and Cork. In June 1987, the board chairman, Niall Fennelly, SC, told a seminar on legal services that the Government's undertaking to introduce a legal aid scheme had not been even remotely honoured and that one could not depend on Government acting consistently in delivering funds to their legal services.

Contrary to the recommendations of the Pringle report no community officers are employed under the scheme, there is no education or research role and, although there is provision for the establishment of local consultative committees, no such committee have yet been appointed.

In their first annual report the board pointed out:

if the aims of the scheme are to be realised, it is essential that in the early years the provision of funds necessary for development should be given priority... The Board has at all times recognised that its obligation is to make the new social service available on a nationwide basis for those in need... However, the history of events since the first centre opened has been a matter of considerable disappointment to the Board. In a nutshell, the Board has not been provided with the funds necessary for expansion although it did and still does stress that it cannot discharge its obligation to provide a proper legal aid service unless speedy approval is given for expansion of the service.

In the first report in 1980 the board noted that they had been informed by the Department of Justice that the scheme would be put in statute form at the first suitable opportunity. They also noted with some disappointment that they had hoped to expand from its initial seven centres to 33 in 1981; in the event the amount provided in grant-in-aid was less than half the amount which the board had considered necessary.

Based on those restricted funds they submitted proposals and received approval for the opening of four new centres in 1981. After having advertised for staff they were then informed that any recruitment would contravene the public service embargo introduced in July 1981 and expansion plans were abandoned.

The public service recruitment embargo has had a disastrous effect on the operation of the scheme, preventing the board at times from maintaining even the limited level of service which they initially achieved. As might be expected, young solicitors tend to move in and out of the legal aid service more quickly than the general run of public servants, especially when there are no opportunities for development or promotion within the scheme.

The first report also identified some problems which have remained with the service ever since and which have contributed greatly to the present crisis. First, in order to ensure that both parties to a dispute were not obliged to attend the same law centre, arrangements were introduced whereby one of the parties in that situation would be represented by a solicitor from another centre.

The annual report in 1980 commented on this arrangement as follows:

This arrangement is costly to operate and it disrupts the running of law centres. From an Exchequer point of view the expenditure involved in sending a solicitor from, say, Galway to Sligo to defend a maintenance summons in the District Court can hardly be said to represent value for money.

The whole reason for this waste is the prohibition on availing of the services of solicitors in private practice, even where those services would be vastly cheaper.

Second, in their first year the board established part-time clinic services in some towns which had no law centre. These clinics are served by staff in existing centres whose manpower is reduced — often halved — as a result. The board concluded that "there is a very definite limit therefore to the improvement of services which can reasonably be expected by opening clinics".

In areas serviced by part-time clinics there is no provision at all for such urgent cases as, for example, barring order applications. Again, litigation stemming from a clinic has to be conducted in the local court so that service in the nearest centre is halved, not only on the day a solicitor from that centre travels to conduct a clinic but also on the day he travels to appear in court on a case arising from that clinic.

The Pringle report had recommended that legal services should be provided by a combination of legal aid centres and private practitioners. They said that "the provision of a comprehensive nationwide legal aid and advice service must involve private practitioners... we consider that a service provided exclusively by legal aid centres would be impracticable outside a few of the larger centres of population". This recommendation was ignored.

The experience of the 12 law centres, together with 18 part-time clinics which open one or two days a month, has borne out the prediction of the Pringle report that it would be impossible for them to provide a comprehensive nationwide service. Rural Ireland is largely unaffected by the civil legal aid and advice scheme.

Even in the larger urban areas the centres cannot cope with the demands imposed upon them. At any given time it is not unusual to find some or all of the four Dublin centres closed to all but emergency cases, so that arrears of work may be cleared. The first such temporary closures took place in 1981 and have been an annual feature ever since. The scheme has collapsed to become an emergency family law service only. Given that 97 per cent of all casework consists of family law matters, it is clear that access to the law is virtually non-existent for many people.

Every annual report of the board has adverted, in increasingly desperate terms, to the same four issues: lack of resources, which prevent it from expanding to provide a comprehensive, nationwide service; the restricted means test; the public service recruitment embargo; and the need to put the scheme on an independent and statutory basis. As the board pointed out in their 1985 report, "one of the consequences of having an inadequate, underfunded legal aid scheme is that it effectively renders progress in the field of law reform virtually irrelevant to a great many people". Recent reforms in family law, for example, are of no practical benefit to those in need unless they also have effective access to legal services through legal aid.

In his foreword to the 1986 report, the last to be published before his resignation together with that of two other board menbers, Mr. Niall Fennelly, SC, wrote:

In December 1977, a distinguished committee, under the chairmanship of Mr. Justice Pringle, reported on the introduction at an early date of a comprehensive scheme of legal aid and advice in civil matters. The scheme established by the Minister in December of 1979 was the offspring of that report. It was poor tribute to the work of the Pringle committee that its tenth anniversary had to be marked by Mr. Justice Pringle's own comments on the limitations and deficiencies of the scheme and his disappointment, which I deeply share, that ten years after the publication of (the) report, so few of the recommendations in that report have, in fact, been implemented by the State.

After eight years, 12 law centres represent the "comprehensive scheme" which was apparently desired by the State in the mid-1970's. In 18 counties there are no law centres although, in some of these, the Board tries to provide a part-time service by attendance on one or two days a month. Obviously, there are large areas of the country where there is no civil legal aid service at all for those who are unable to afford legal services from their own resources.

Even in Dublin, where there are four law centres, the need for services so outstrips resources that applicants for legal aid have to wait for weeks, or even months, for an appointment with a solicitor. The well known adage is that justice delayed is justice denied. I can only regret that justice has to be denied in so many cases.

Whether a legal aid scheme depends for the provision of services on community or State controlled law centres, special provision has to be made for legal aid in remote areas. The Pringle report, the Legal Aid Board and many other commentators have recognised that a comprehensive nationwide service cannot be provided in remote areas without recourse to the services of private practitioners who would be remunerated for this type of work from a central fund.

The Minister for Justice in 1980 described the civil legal aid scheme by saying "The scheme... puts the poor person into a position of a person of modest means". But it is not enough simply to provide a poor man with the services of a rich man's solicitor. A scheme of legal aid and advice must be seen as part of an overall policy to combat poverty. One of the ways in which the problem of poverty can be tackled is through the use of the law on behalf of the underprivileged.

At a basic level an individual needs access to the law in order to vindicate income-generating rights, for example, his right to redundancy pay or to compensation for injuries suffered in a road traffic accident. An award of money following on legal intervention can alleviate poverty.

But the law is also capable of tackling the problem of poverty at a more profound level by redressing the balance of power through the creation of substantial rights for the underprivileged. An aspect of poverty is the powerlessness of its victims and their lack of control over their destinies. An effective legal aid scheme would allow such people to vindicate such rights as they already have under the law and would also identify those areas where reform is needed to build up a corpus of rights inhering in the underprivileged. The function of legal aid should be to provide the poor with access to the law and the courts for two purposes: to enforce laws enacted to protect and benefit the poor and to influence the development of law to provide a fairer share of justice for the poor.

It is, therefore, one of the essential characteristics of an effective legal aid scheme that it be community based and controlled. The reason why the State rejected the concept of community law centres is readily apparent. In his article in the Law Society Gazette already referred to, the Assistant Secretary of the Department of Justice wrote:

No doubt, one of the aims of any review which will take place in the context of introducing a statutory measure will be to simplify the scheme. The degree to which simplicity can be achieved, however, is limited. One of the main reasons for this is that civil legal aid is not just a matter of providing persons of limited means with access to justice — though this is its principal aim — it also means that a very powerful weapon is put in the hands of individuals who happen to qualify whereby they can, with the backing of State resources, take others who do not qualify literally to any court in the land. The potential for abuse in that situation is clear and the need for effective control mechanisms is equally clear.

The law does not have an innate tendency to occupy a position of equilibrium between the various sections of society; it reflects the relative political strength of various interest groups. If the law is to have a role in combating poverty and the powerlessness born out of hardship and deprivation, control of the legal aid scheme must be vested in those for whom it is established.

It is precisely because it is such a "very powerful weapon" that legal aid should be controlled by those whom it is intended to benefit. This requires the establishment of neighbourhood law centres based in and identifying with local communities and run by committees representing those communities. Another obstacle to law is the fact that many people are unaware of the legal dimension to their problems and do not think of consulting a solicitor. This illustrates the need for a programme of public legal education conducted through schools, residents associations, youth groups, etc., such as is undertaken at present by the State's only community law centre at Coolock and which was advocated in the Pringle report. Such a programme would require the appointment of a community officer at the law centre responsible for liaison with the local interest groups. Apart from his educational function, he would have the function of ensuring that the centre took an active role in identifying the legal issues and the areas of law reform of most concern to his community. The law centre should not simply be a State-funded equivalent to a private practice; its strength, as shown in Coolock and in Belfast, lies in the fact that it is locally based and responsible to local needs.

The scheme for civil legal aid and advice has collapsed to become an emergency family law service only, in those limited areas of the country where it is established. There is no access to the law for the bulk of those who cannot afford to pay for their own lawyers.

The principal problems impeding access to law include both lack of finance and ignorance of one's rights. As introduced, the scheme never attempted to deal with the latter problem.

The scheme as established, even if adequately funded, could not cope with the un-met legal need. It is essential that community law centres, based in the areas they serve, be established. Such centres would be managed by committees controlled by representatives of the local communities, run within the guidelines set down by legislation and supervised by an independent statutory legal aid board. The staff would include community officers responsible for education courses for local groups, liaison with the community, research into the legal needs of the area and proposals for law reform.

Such law centres should be established in large urban areas and in large and small towns throughout the State. The centres should be able to provide representation not only before courts but also before tribunals such as the Employment Appeal Tribunal, social welfare appeals, etc., which are at present excluded from the scheme. In practice, these tribunals form the arena in which the rights of the poor are adjudicated. In rural areas legal aid should be available through a panel of private solicitors.

The details of the scheme must be comprehensively advertised. Failure to inform the public defeats the whole purpose of the scheme, which is to improve access to the law.

In moving this motion, we do not seek to pretend that any party has had a monopoly of wisdom in relation to this scheme. It is clear that the Government of which I was a member did try, through the Funds of Suitors legislation, to expand the service, and to protect it from the financial cutbacks of that time. When we come to reply to this debate, we shall show that the Government have not lived up to the responsibilities imposed by the right of access to legal aid, and have ignored the opportunities for greater economic growth.

In the meantime, I will conclude by asking simply for the maximum support possible for this motion. There is no party in this House which has not at one time or another paid lip-service to the principles inherent in access to the law. Now is the time to translate that lip-service into action, by supporting this motion. I want to share some of my time with Deputy——

The Deputy should have indicated that earlier. I am sorry, Deputy, I must now call the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Woods. If time is to be shared it should be indicated at the commencement of a speech, not at the end, out of courtesy to the Chair.

I am reading the speech on behalf of the Minister for Justice, Deputy Burke, who is out of the country at present and is unable to be here for this motion.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and to substitute the following:

"notes with approval that, for the first time since the establishment of the Scheme of Civil Legal and Advice, the Grant-in-Aid to the Legal Aid Board has been increased by a significant amount; recognises that the increase in Exchequer funding of £425,000 over the Grant for 1989 will enable the Board to continue in operation four Law Centres which otherwise would have had to close and will also enable the Board to recruit a substantial number of staff to fill the vacancies at Solicitor and administrative levels; and acknowledges that in the context of present financial circumstances and the need to curb expenditure which is paramount in the Government's strategy, the increased resources made available to the Board is a reflection of the Government's commitment to the Civil Legal Aid Scheme."

I want to make the point at the outset of this debate that, despite the continuing and pressing need to contain public expenditure, this Government in fixing the Estimates for 1990 took into account the particular difficulties of the Legal Aid Board and made provision to increase the grant-in-aid to the board. It is the first time since the setting up of the scheme that its grant-in-aid has been increased by a significant amount.

The grant for 1990 represents an increase of Exchequer funding of £425,000 over the grant for 1989. That is a substantial increase of Exchequer money of some 25 per cent and will enable the board to continue in operation four law centres, previously opened with Funds of Suitors moneys, which would otherwise have had to close. Needless to say the Minister is pleased to be in a position to provide an increase in Exchequer funding of some 25 per cent this year. It will also enable the board to recruit a substantial number of staff to fill most of their vacancies — in all the board will be enabled to recruit 20 additional staff including seven solicitors and some 13 administrative staff. Arrangements are well in hand with regard to the placing of this staff. I understand the board is in the process of recruiting these solicitors and the administrative staff should be in place shortly. I intend to see that any further staff shortages in the board will be treated as sympathetically as possible.

Despite that provision of extra resources at a time when public finances are under strain and when no area of the public service has been exempt from necessary restraint, there have been resignations from the board on the grounds that the provision made is not all that is required. I regret that. What has been provided by the increase made in the grant-in-aid for 1990 will alleviate the board's problems to some extent. I am taking steps to have the vacancies on the board filled.

I may say that subsequent to his resignation I was happy to receive a letter from the former Chairman generously acknowledging the Government decision made at my instance and acknowledging that this was the first significant attempt to address the problems of the scheme for several years past although he did not, of course, find it possible to agree that enough had been done.

It would be interesting to see the entire letter.

I would like to dwell on a point here for a moment and I may come back to it again throughout my contribution to the debate on this motion. The point is that when the opening of four law centres in the period 1985 to 1987 is left out of the reckoning, as it should be, because the moneys used to pay for them were not from the Exchequer, what did the parties on the other side do for the scheme when they were in Government for five years?

Is that the answer the Minister has for the House?

Could they not find it in their hearts to act on the plea from the chairman in the board's 1983-84 annual report regarding the problems of the scheme at that time? It is quite clear that a separate measure was taken just to fill a hole for a time but no guarantee of Exchequer funding was given to the mechanism of the Fund of Suitors moneys. However, the Minister is now making real money available in a significant way for the first time. I will quote from the foreword to the report which states:

It is, however, a matter of very considerable regret to the Board and to myself, as Chairman, that it is not possible to present this report without adverting to some very serious problems which continue to stand in the way of providing a proper legal aid service on a truly nationwide basis.

The Board has been the subject of severe criticism from a wide variety of individuals and bodies, on the basis of the inadequacy of the service provided. This criticism is unfair in that it fails to recognise that the central problem is inadequate funding, a matter outside the Board's own control.

We acknowledge, of course, that the constraints on public finances are a serious problem for Government at any time. Nevertheless, we are strongly of the view that a higher priority should be given to the provision of civil legal aid services, the need for which is felt by the poorest section of the community.

Unfortunately, what the Board has to acknowledge above all else, after five years of operation, is that the Legal Aid Scheme is still very far from providing the type of comprehensive national service that was envisaged at its introduction.

That is what the chairman said during the period of office of the Members from the opposite side of the House.

As if that was not enough, what about the chairman's foreword in the 1982 annual report which was considered by the Government in November 1984? Again I quote:

The Board has been disappointed to find the scheme virtually frozen at a very early stage in its development. In his introduction to the 1980 Annual Report, my predecessor recorded that it had been hoped that by the end of 1981 the number of Law Centres would have at least trebled. Unfortunately, this is still far from realisation — the only progress made in the meantime has been the opening of one additional Centre in Dublin.

Matters were made worse by the impact of the embargo on recruitment in the public sector which has, at times, prevented the Board from even maintaining the level of service that was then achieved, due to its inability to replace solicitors leaving its service. It is only right, however, that I should record the Board's appreciation of the assistance received from the Minister for Justice and the Minister for the Public Service in achieving a recent modest alleviation of this impact. But we are still faced with a situation where a number of our Centres are forced quite frequently to close their doors to any cases other than emergencies.

Therefore, it ill becomes members of the main Opposition parties to criticise this Government especially when, as I have said, the biggest ever injection of cash in the board's history is being made available to them by this Government. If we check the records for the years 1982 to 1986, the annual increases in the board's grant-in-aid were £90,000, £40,000. £172,000 and £245,000.

The Minister is locked in a time tunnel. This is 1990.

We were giving the board £425,000 over and above what they got from the Exchequer in 1989.

What about 1987?

Minus the funds of suitors——

It is appropriate for me in the context of this debate to say something about the history of the legal aid scheme. The civil legal aid scheme has been in existence for some ten years. It was established following the report in 1977 of the Pringle Committee on Civil Legal Aid and Advice and the main features of the scheme had been approved by the Government in May 1979, that is, before the decision in the Airey case was delivered by the European Court of Justice.

I would like to take this opportunity of putting the record straight with regard to the judgment of the European Court in the Airey case. It has been said, and may be repeated in this debate, that the introduction of the civil legal aid scheme was a response by the Government of the day to that judgment and was forced on the Government by the judgment. The facts of the matter are that, following the earlier commitment which resulted in the establishment of the Pringle Committee on Legal Aid in 1974, the Government announced in May 1979 that they had approved of the main features of a scheme of civil legal aid and advice and undertook to introduce a detailed scheme by the end of that year. The decision of the European Court was delivered in October 1979. The detailed scheme was published as promised in December 1979.

In its judgment the European Court did not decide that Ireland was in contravention of the European Convention on Human Rights simply because a civil legal aid scheme was not in existence. What the Court decided was that violation of certain Articles of the convention had occurred because the applicant in the case did not have an effective right of access to justice. Legal aid as such was not the issue and, in fact, the court had already ruled that there is no direct right to legal aid under or by virtue of the provisions of the convention. The court did indicate that a civil legal aid system is one way to facilitate access to justice, but it is clearly not the only way. Simplification of court procedures and increased jurisdiction for the lower courts are other ways. Since then the Courts Act, 1981, which greatly increased the jurisdiction of the lower courts, especially in family law matters, has contributed to making justice more accessible.

The legal aid scheme was established in 1980 because it was justified in its own right and as being something in respect of which there was already a strong commitment. The purpose of the scheme is to enable persons of limited means to avail themselves of legal services. The scheme was introduced and has so far remained on an administrative basis. I will come back to this aspect later. It is administered by an independent board and services under the scheme are provided by salaried lawyers working in law centres around the country. While eligibility for legal aid and advice under the scheme is means tested, the eligibility limits are modelled on the framework recommended by the Pringle Committee and are quite generous. That was because it was intended that the new service should not be restricted to applicants in the weakest economic class, for example, social welfare recipients, who could afford to pay little or nothing for the cost of legal aid and advice but should apply also to people who were better off and who could afford to contribute a reasonable proportion of that cost from their own resources. A means-test based on disposable rather than gross income was recommended by the committee in order to achieve more equity.

Disposable income is the income which remains when various deductions are made from gross income, gross income being defined as total income received from all sources. The deductions to be made from gross income — referred to as "allowances"— include, for example, income tax, mortgage repayments, rent, social insurance, VHI contributions, expenses in travelling to and from work together with various allowances in respect of the applicant's spouse and dependent children. Following a third revision of the means test provisions in May 1986, a person will qualify for services under the scheme if his annual disposable income does not exceed £5,500 per annum. Obviously, with the various allowances that can be made, an individual with the usual family commitments could qualify for legal service on a gross annual income considerably in excess of £5,500. The board's annual report for 1985 contained various examples, one of which showed that a married man with three children and fairly typical commitments will still qualify for legal aid on a gross income of almost £14,000 per annum, though there have been a few cases where a gross income of £18,000 was involved.

The scheme provides also for a merits test. The essential question for the purpose of assessing the merits of any application for legal services is whether, and I quote:

...a reasonably prudent person whose means were outside (those specified in the Scheme) would be likely to seek such service at his own expense, if his means were such that the cost involved, while representing a financial obstacle to him, would not be such as to impose undue financial hardship...

and

a competent lawyer would be likely to advise him to obtain such services. The purpose of the scheme, in other words, is not to put the person of limited means in the position of a person for whom money is no object, but in the position of the person whose means, while not over-abundant, are sufficient to cover essential legal services.

The scheme enables legal aid and assistance to be given in a wide range of proceedings with limited exceptions. It is mainly availed of, as Deputies will be aware, in family law proceedings. Incidentally, I have heard criticisms in some quarters about the preponderance of family law cases in the board's caseload. I do not know what the basis for that criticism is. The board have no say as regards the types of cases that they deal with under the scheme. They simply reflect the demands which are made on them. Unfortunately the board's experience shows that the extent of marital breakdown in our society, as in other countries, is on the increase. The board have to deal with the legal fall-out of that.

The Government must in turn deal with them.

If that means that there is greater pressure on the civil legal aid scheme in this area of the law rather than, say, in tort actions or personal injury cases, then that is simply a reflection of where the pressure in our society is.

The provisions of the scheme reflect generally the recommendations of the Pringle Committee who I have referred to and in some respects the scheme as introduced was more ambitious in scope than the committee anticipated in their report. The committee had felt that it might be necessary to introduce a more limited, interim scheme first, but in the event the scheme that was adopted was based on the committee's blue print for a comprehensive scheme, though subject to specific exceptions. These exceptions may be found in legal aid schemes in other countries also.

The scheme commenced in 1980 with seven law centres, two in Dublin and one each at Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway and Sligo and in 1982 another centre was opened in Dublin at Ormond Quay. There were plans at that time for further expansion of the scheme by opening a number of additional law centres but these plans had to be shelved because of difficulties with the public finances.

Subsequently, the Funds of Suitors Act, 1984, was enacted and this allowed unclaimed funds of suitors in court to be used for a number of purposes one of which was civil legal aid. By use of these non-Exchequer funds it was possible to open four new law centres at Tallaght, Tralee, Cork — a second centre — and Athlone. At one stage it was hoped that further additional centres — four in all — could be opened if sufficient moneys remained in the dormant accounts after various other specified commitments which arose under the Act had been met. In the event there were not sufficient suitors funds remaining to enable those centres to be financed in addition to the four already opened and it was not possible to allocate Exchequer funds for the purpose.

I mention these matters to reiterate the point I made at the start of my contribution to this debate, namely, that the difficulties of the Legal Aid Board are not new. Almost from the beginning there has been criticism about inadequate funding but the continuing financial climate was such that successive Governments — not just this Government — found themselves in the position of not being able, because of other pressing demands, to increase significantly the amount of taxpayers' money going to the provision of legal aid and advice.

As Deputies will be aware, the legal aid service has not been the only area which has complained of lack of funding. There has hardly been a branch of the public service which has not had to suffer, necessarily, the effects of the basic need to curtail public expenditure in an effort to get this country on its feet again. What I am saying is that the problems of the legal aid service are not unique, and I would repeat again that the recent Government decision and the additional allocation to the scheme which I have mentioned is the most significant effort made yet to improve the situation of the service, and that was done despite the continuing need to exercise restraint in regard to public expenditure.

Since coming to the Department of Justice and following a meeting I had with the former chairman of the Legal Aid Board and the chief executive I decided that my first priority in relation to the civil legal aid scheme must be——

Deputy Woods is not the Minister. It is obvious that the speech was designed for the man who is not here.

I explained to the Ceann Comhairle at the outset that I would be reading the speech on behalf of the Minister. I thought the Deputy was present at the time.

I was, but I missed that point.

That is a well known procedure. There is nothing unusual about it.

It is a procedure the Minister for Social Welfare has become accustomed to in recent months.

The Deputy will have his chance to speak. He should let others speak.

Will Deputy Flanagan please realise that these sudden impulses must be contained and cannot be expressed in the fashion we have heard from him and from Deputy McCartan? The Minister, without interruption.

Since coming to the Department of Justice and following a meeting I had with the former chairman of the Legal Aid Board and the chief executive I decided that my first priority in relation to the civil legal aid scheme must be to halt the decline in the legal aid service which had occurred. My intention was, in other words, to get the existing scheme operating as smoothly as possible and to secure the necessary funds to enable that to be done, before considering what further expansion of the service should or could be authorised. I think that is a logical and reasonable approach and one which I am only too happy to defend.

The first problem was that four centres had been operating by use of non-Exchequer funds which were exhausted. Unless specific provision of extra Exchequer moneys was made available, those centres would have had to close. I regard it as a matter of some personal satisfaction that I was able to get Government approval for Exchequer funding for these centres. The uncertainty over their future has been removed once and for all and those centres may be regarded as a permanent part of the board's network of 12 law centres. It has been said that as the extra money made available for these centres merely replaced other funds previously available, there was no overall extra provision. The fact is that there is a real and substantial increase of taxpayers' money involved and nothing can take from that.

The second immediate problem was that because of the effect of the embargo on the filling of vacancies which applied generally throughout the public service, there was a large number of unfilled posts both at solicitor and administrative level which was creating severe problems for the board in coping with the volume of work. Of course many other areas of the public service had to contend with the same problems. I was able to secure the approval of the Government for the filling of all solicitor vacancies and most of the administrative vacancies. When all the staff are in place I expect to see a gradual improvement in the overall situation with regard to the provision of services under the scheme.

During the debate on this motion I expect to hear calls for fundamental changes in the scheme, calls to expand the service to cover appearances before tribunals, test cases, education as to legal rights, social welfare matters and community involvement. I also anticipate that there will be demands to use the services of private practitioners, as indeed suggested by Deputy Kavanagh.

I would like to say something about these matters. In relation to appearances before tribunals, the main reason these cases are excluded under the scheme is simply because it was felt that this was necessary to discourage a growing trend towards legalism in what were originally and deliberately designed to be informal and non-legal for settling disputes. The tribunals in question would mainly be in the areas of labour, planning and social welfare legislation.

I realise there is an argument now for representation before such tribunals and the principal reason is that these areas of the law have become so complex that legal representation might be considered necessary. I have no difficulty with that but the problem is that to extend the scheme to tribunals would be costly. There is no way the scheme could cope without a considerable increase in resources. That is just not possible at this stage so the development of the scheme on these lines will just have to wait.

The present scheme does not extend to providing representation in test cases and this has been criticised. As a question of policy, I do not think the scheme should be involved in so called test cases. These would be expensive and would eat up the available resources to the detriment of more deserving cases.

It is sometimes suggested that we should broaden our view of the scheme in order to make each law centre a means of access to education in relation to law and rights and a focus for community activity in these areas and a means of access to power in the community — in the context of knowledge being power. The function of our civil legal aid system is to provide people who would otherwise be unable to afford it with a means of vindicating their rights under the Constitution and the law, and the scheme was drawn up with that in mind.

To give law centres an unrestricted function in relation to education on legal rights and in "identifying hidden need" would in all probability lead to constant pressure on the Government of the day for more and more State funds. Education on legal rights could cover an extremely wide field and "hidden need"— in the context of civil disputes — is a very elastic concept, the scope of which would depend as much on the sociological view of the lawyers and others involved as it would on some more objective criterion. While there may be a case to be made for work of this nature, it is not in my view appropriate to the legal aid scheme, the purpose of which is simply to provide people of limited means with an opportunity of having their problems determined by a court.

The fact that the present scheme precludes the use of private solicitors is another criticism that has been made. Again, the reason for their exclusion is on grounds of cost. A comparison should be made with the situation in England and Wales. Control over the legal aid system in that jurisdiction was originally in the hands of the law society and was an "off the street" system. By that I mean a person with a grievance could walk into a private solicitor's office and obtain advice or legal representation. It proved to be extremely costly, so costly in fact that the control of the system was recently taken out of the hands of the private practitioners and given to an independent board.

I am not asking the Minister for that.

However, I am not totally opposed to the use of private practitioners and there are situations in which it may be possible to make use of private practitioners in the operation of the scheme. I am thinking, in particular, of cases involving adjournments of legal aid cases and the more efficient use of money and staff resources in servicing the Legal Aid Board's 19 part-time law centres. I would be against an "off-the-street" system but that is not to say that the private practitioner could not have a part to play in the development of the scheme. That is something I intend to look at. In fact, I have asked the board for any proposals they might have in that regard. Any proposals they may make will be considered carefully by me and if I think there are benefits I will have the matter further examined in conjunction with the law society. My intention is that anything done on these lines should be done by better use of existing resources and without extra cost.

With regard to community involvement the scheme already in paragraph 6.3.2 it provides for consultative committees. One such committee already operate in the case of the Tallaght Law Centre. It is open to the board to encourage the development of such committees in other locations serviced by their law centres.

The motion before us calls for the enactment of legislation to put the legal aid scheme, which at the moment is an administrative scheme, on a statutory basis. It was always the intention that legislation would be brought forward for that purpose. In the beginning it was realised that a period of a few years should be allowed to pass in order to see how the scheme as established was working and whether problems were arising on the ground because of the structure and form of the scheme which would have to be corrected before the scheme was set in statutory form. Here again I note that the Chairman's calls for a statutory scheme were ignored by the earlier Coalition Government. In the board's 1985 annual report which was considered by the then Government in December 1986 the board referred to the confirmation by the then Minister for Justice that legislation to put the scheme on a statutory basis was then being put in hand. What happened? Consider the 1983-84 report considered by the Government in February 1986 where the Chairman said:

Another matter of considerable concern to the Board — and one which has been repeatedly voiced by my predecessors and myself — is the need to put the scheme on a proper statutory basis. It was certainly not the intention that it would still be a non-statutory administrative measure five years after its inception. The Board strongly urges the Government to give priority to the long promised legislation.

What happened? — nothing.

Let us consider the 1982 report considered by the Government in November 1984. The Chairman said:

...the Board is also of the view that it is desirable to place the Legal Aid scheme on a proper statutory basis and hopes the Government will see its way to preparing the necessary legislation in the near future.

The point I am making is that other Governments, besides the present and previous Governments, have failed to bring forward legislation.

(Interruptions.)

A considerable amount of drafting work has in fact been done towards the preparation of the legislation and a number of useful suggestions as to changes needed, arising from the working of the scheme over the years, have been received from the Legal Aid Board. However, I regret that it has not been possible up to this point to introduce a Legal Aid Bill. I know that in recent years this has been due to pressure of other demands for legislation on my Department and the fact that the Department, like the Legal Aid Board, have had to put up with staff reductions due to the embargo on the filling of vacancies in the public service. I intend that the work already done on preparing the legislation will be brought to completion so that a Bill can be introduced as soon as possible.

I would make the point, however, that the absence of legislation is not an impediment to the provision of legal aid services to the public and that the enactment of legislation, of itself, would not solve the basic problems that the board have encountered. Even if the Legal Aid Board had by this time been placed on a statutory basis, they would still depend for their resources on Exchequer moneys and accordingly would still be subject to the same constraints to which other bodies in the public sevice are subjected.

As I have indicated, my first concern was to get the present scheme operating as smoothly as possible and I have taken steps to achieve that. What has been done is the most we can afford at this stage. I am of course conscious of the fact that the scheme has not been developed to the extent originally envisaged and I accept that the present network of 12 centres is less than the nationwide service intended. It was unfortunate that specific plans for further expansion drawn up some years ago had to be abandoned. The board have put forward proposals for expansion but these would cost a substantial amount of money, far in excess of current expenditure on civil and criminal legal aid combined. In 1990 the total cost of both systems of legal aid will be close on £5 million. In line with my predecessors I am anxious to see the service expanded as soon as we can afford it but this obviously can only be done on a phased basis, depending on the availability of resources and other demands.

I am aware that the recent enactment of the judicial separation legislation may put additional strain on the Borad's ability to cope. That Act extended radically the grounds on which a judicial separation can be obtained and gives power to the courts to make various orders in relation to income and property which courts up to this have not had. That is expected to result in the making of many more applications for judicial separation, many of which will be the subject of application for legal aid. I intend to look at that aspect in the context of the 1991 Estimates by which time we should have a clearer picture of the effects of that legislation, which has only been in force since October 1989.

The question of further expansion of the scheme depends entirely on the availability of public financial resources. The extremely tight constraints on those resources now and in the foreseeable future have important implications for policy in relation to the further development of the scheme over the short to medium term. It imposes on us the clear obligation to use the limited resource that are available in the most cost-effective way to optimise the benefits to the community. My approach is entirely in keeping with that objective. I want to see the existing service working smoothly before I give any further consideration to the expansion of the scheme by opening additional law centres.

I would like to emphasise again that the decision of the Government to increase the grant-in-aid to its highest level ever in 1990, especially at a time of very limited public resources, is a mark of the Government's commitment to the scheme and underscores the importance which the Government attach to it. It also demonstrates that further expansion of the scheme on the model I have outlined — through the opening of additional law centres on a phased basis — will be authorised when the prevailing financial circumstances permit it.

I would not like to let this occasion go by without paying tribute to the staff of the board who experience considerable pressure in their work. As the board pointed out in their 1986 annual report, the solicitor staff in particular are working in a stressful area at the best of times due mainly to the nature of the cases they have to deal with. Added to that pressure is the difficulty of coping with staff shortages which of course imposes even greater burdens on the staff. Whatever difficulties may have arisen with the scheme I have never heard anything but the height of praise for the dedicated professionalism that has come to be associated with the staff who are providing this important social service, and they will shortly have an additional 20 members.

The Chair notes the maturity and consideration of the House in not objecting to the fact that the Minister acquired two or three extra minutes.

In the hope perhaps that the Minister might, in his last minute, depart from his script and say something positive.

A Deputy

That would take him longer.

Let me request the permission of the House to share my time with Deputy Shatter and Deputy Fennell.

I would like to record a note of appreciation to the Labour Party on behalf of Fine Gael for the placing of this motion in their Private Members' Time, and to inform Deputy Kavanagh and other Members that we will be supporting the motion tomorrow night.

It is now four weeks since the resignation of the two prominent members of the Legal Aid Board. Obviously, if it were not for that resignation we would not be discussing the present crisis in the civil legal aid scheme. It is extraordinary that the resignations attracted absolutely no positive response from the Minister for Justice or his Minister of State here this evening. The Government's failure to provide a proper system of civil legal aid denies access to the courts to those in need and thus ensures in our society inequality before the law. It is a nonsense to suggest that there is any such thing as equality before the law while hundreds of thousands of people, the vast majority of social welfare recipients, are denied access to the courts and to the law because of the shambles into which the civil legal aid scheme has fallen in the past number of years.

The Minister for Justice, in this debate and in an Adjournment debate on this matter which was held in November last, as well as in Justice debates generally, has treated the House very shabby. Earlier in the day we had a Justice debate, later on we will have a Justice debate and I see the Minister of State with responsibility for horticulture, who was busily deputising for the Minister for Agriculture, now wearing the cap of the Minister for Justice. How much of this can the House tolerate? The failure of the House to debate the civil legal aid crisis either by way of Private Notice Question or an Adjournment Debate since the resignations highlights the inadequacy of the manner in which urgent matters may be brought to the attention of the national legislature.

The funding of the legal aid centres has figured prominently in a number of past debates and is a topic which has been referred to during the debate on every Estimate for the Department of Justice in the past three years or longer. There would appear to be general agreement on all sides of the House that the fundamental weakness is one of money. When the board were set up 11 years ago it was stated that they would have the money, the personnel and the resources to help people to obtain legal advice who did not have the means otherwise to do so. As a way of helping these people to secure the protection of the law it was welcomed by all at that time. Since then we have seen the system deteriorate almost to a farce. The operation of civil legal aid over the past decade shows that the service provided is more imaginery than real. It is not unusual to see a six month waiting list for an appointment to discuss a legal matter. Some people must travel over 50 miles to queue at a law centre.

The resignation of members of the Legal Aid Board was by no means a surprise. The chairman had on a number of occasions informed the Government of his frustration as chairman of the board. That sense of frustration is manifest in the 1986 annual report, paragraph 3.1, page 10. The problem would appear to be money. The centres cannot give the aid and advice necessary to meet public demand because of the lack of basic resources. The present annual budget to operate the entire scheme amounts to £2.1 million, which sum can be placed in context by noting that it is marginally higher than the funds allocated from the national lottery to sporting endeavours in the west in 1989. The Minister must between now and tomorrow night, if the Minister for Social Welfare can contact him, give a firm commitment that he will increase the funding of the centres with a view to shortening the waiting lists for clients at the 12 centres around the country.

The Minister must be aware that new applications for civil legal aid by people who cannot afford a solicitor are being refused on a daily basis because of staff shortages. One has to have an extreme emergency, such as child abuse or serious violence against a spouse, in order to obtain immediate legal aid. I am sure the Ministers and members of the Government party have noted at their constituency clinics problems of people not being able to obtain legal aid from the local law centre, if there is such a centre in their constituency.

The full-time law centre in Athlone can be cited as an example of the system breaking down. A document obtained from that centre states that from time to time the centre is unable to take on new clients due to pressure of work and unless additional funding is provided many people who are entitled to legal aid will be left without access to their rights. Despite the inadequacy of the service and the increasing demand for legal aid, the law centre will have to close unless additional funding is provided by the Government. That is just one of a number of similar complaints from law centres throughout the country.

Much publicity was given 18 months ago to the setting up of a part-time centre in my constituency at Portlaoise but to state that there is Mickey Mouse service available from that office constitutes a gross offence to Mickey Mouse and certainly no disrespect to the hard working staff at that centre, who had to suspend operations because they could not cope with the basic demand and the right of people to have access to the courts. Statistics clearly show that approximately 75 per cent of legal aid cases relate to family law matters, concerning mainly domestic violence, barring orders, custody orders, orders related to the sexual abuse of children and nullity decrees. The law centres have such a demand on their service from a family point of view that the legal aid service deals almost exclusively with family law. This is not surprising when one considers the programme of law reform which has been completed since the board were set up in late 1979. Legislation such as the Status of Children Act, the Family Law Act, the Adoption Act, the widening by the courts of the nullity laws and the change in jurisdiction of the civil courts, have all led to an increased demand for services. More than anything else, the Judicial Separation and Family Law Reform Act of 1989 which came into effect on 19 October last will be meaningless unless accompanied by increased Government resources to the civil legal aid scheme. The Minister must be aware that without a significant expansion of the scheme this Act will in practice be available only to people who can afford to discharge the hefty legal costs involved. At every law centre throughout the country there were people anxiously awaiting 19 October, most of whom have got little or no remedy since that legislation was enacted.

This ensures a certain inequality before the law which is undesirable in a western democracy. It is surely wrong that the rights under law passed by this House to benefit all the citizens of the community can only be enjoyed and exercised by those who can afford to dig deep into their pockets to gain access to the courts. That is access, not redress, which is what the court system is all about.

There has been widespread agreement in the House on the need to establish the scheme on a statutory basis. This argument has been lost over the years because of the need to highlight funding as being the main problem. There has been no real attempt at having the legal aid scheme recognised on a statutory basis, although it was stated by successive Ministers for Justice that the Department had already prepared the groundwork in this regard. In the foreword to the 1986 report the chairman quoted from the previous report when he expressed the hope that the scheme would be put on a statutory basis within the coming year.

During the Dáil debate on the introduction of the scheme in 1980 the then Minister for Justice, Deputy Collins, who has since on a number of occasions sat in the same seat at Cabinet, indicated that it was his intention to place the scheme of civil legal aid and advice on a statutory basis as soon as that could be done. The idea was to have the scheme up and running initially on a non-statutory administrative basis. In the first annual report of the Legal Aid Board the question is referred to and it is stated that the present scheme of civil legal aid and advice is non-statutory. It was introduced on an administrative basis in order to get the scheme into operation with the least possible delay. The chairman's comment in the foreword to the 1983 report has been quoted by the Minister. I will not repeat the continuing clamour from successive chairmen on the need to establish the board on a statutory basis.

In 1986 when addressing the Seanad on a civil legal aid motion the then Minister for Justice, now Leader of my party, said he was glad that recently he was able to inform the chairman of the board that work had commenced in his Department on preparing the necessary legislation and he expected that progress would be made on that front fairly quickly. Unfortunately, a general election followed some weeks later and it was not possible for that expectation to become a reality.

(Interruptions.)

There have been three years since then in which Deputy O'Dea has sat behind successive Ministers for Justice and seen the scheme disintegrate. I am sure the people in Limerick who are clamouring for legal advice at the centre——

I will look after Limerick.

I am sure they have sent the Deputy in to a look after them and that is precisely what he is doing here.

If Deputy Flanagan continues to address Deputy O'Dea and not the Chair he is encouraging interruptions.

I would ask the Minister for Justice to put a time scale on the placing of this legislation before the House. The heads of a Bill have been lying around the Department at least since 1986. The plight of the law centres and the legal aid scheme is not one which can be addressed in the long term just by increasing the allocation of funding. Admittedly, there is need for an emergency, fire brigade action in this regard but nevertheless it is time we looked at the broader aspect of legal aid. It is a sad fact of life that the poor and, indeed, the not so poor, are unable to gain access to justice. We should now be looking at the concept of a small claims court which would deal with cases more quickly and less expensively. The court, in the form of a consumer claims court, would deal with defective goods and services and small claims of a civil nature. This would allow people who have a grievance to have it adjudicated upon without the need to spend vast sums of money.

There is frequent criticism of the small claims court structure in England due to a preponderance of claims by financial institutions using the small claims court to obtain a judgment against the consumer and hence using that court as a stick with which to beat the consumer. I believe this might be answered satisfactorily by a small claims court having jurisdiction to hear claims only at the suit of an individual and not of a limited liability or trading company. It has been said that there has been some form of constitutional barrier to the setting up of such a court and I would ask the Minister to clarify matters in so much as he can in that regard.

The system of legal aid at present, in reality does not allow a consumer to bring an action for defective goods. One of the most comprehensive pieces of consumer legislation introduced since the founding of the Civil Legal Aid Board was the Sale of Goods Act, 1981, under which people are unable to seek civil legal aid if they have a grievance. Neither does the civil legal aid scheme cater for cases that regularly occur in contract, tort and property matters. The massive over-burdening of the system by family law matters underlines the inadequacy of the entire scheme. Any comprehensive reform of the scheme must be considered in tandem with the setting up of a small claims court to deal effectively, efficiently and economically with matters of a civil nature.

There are many people who are in need of legal advice and legal aid but do not get it due to the constraints under the scheme on advice in areas dealing with the family. For example, in the social welfare appeals area there is a whole body of law which is being far removed from the consumer. Ideally, a system of civil legal aid should encompass social welfare tribunals, unfair dismissals and employment appeals tribunals, arbitrations, all matters with which our citizens have to deal from time to time. It is a fact of life that the general public cannot avail of many of the statutory tribunals which this House, over the years, has established for the simple reason that the financial assistance which is necessary when facing such a tribunal is not available.

The issues to be debated must include the future direction of civil legal aid and the model that would be most beneficial to the needs of our society. The relevance of the original decision in the Airey case and the recommendations of the Pringle Committee must be fundamental to any discussion. This debate is not going to answer the important question of the future of the scheme, nor is it meant to, but I would refer the Minister to a paper published by FLAC and the Coolock Community Law Centre entitled "A Joint Discussion Paper on the Legal Aid Services" wherein is discussed the concept of a legal services board to provide a national legal aid service through the setting up of community law centres, with a back-up of contracted private solicitors. I trust that some consideration might be given to that by the Minister in the overall approach to the problem.

The centres would provide such a service as legal aid, court appearances, research, law reform and educational projects. Would the Minister consider setting up an all-party Dáil committee to examine the direction in which legal aid should go between now and the end of the century? That committee could examine the report of the Pringle Committee, a comprehensive report worthy of scrutiny which has not, in my view, been fully examined by this House since it was first published in 1977. The House, in the course of this debate, should be reminded of the principal recommendations of the Pringle Committee report. Lest we forget the shameful lack of progress made in civil legal aid over the past 12 years, I would refer Members to a summary of recommendations. If the Minister is not going to address himself to all the recommendations, he might read the summary of the recommendations on pages 149 and 150 of the report, quotations to which time will not allow me refer.

There have been many references since the Pringle Committee report to the concept of phasing in that underlines the sham to which the service available has been reduced in recent times. The Pringle Committee report recommends that civil legal aid and advice should be provided by means of a combination of private practitioners and legal advice centres. It also recommends the concept of a panel of solicitors and that is something that we should seriously consider. Thirteen years after the report was published the Government are not even admitting that the present scheme is an interim scheme and a measure along the way towards providing society with a comprehensive system of civil legal aid.

In short, Pringle advocated the implementation of a legal aid and advice scheme to be administered by an independent legal aid board appointed by the Government. That board would not only administer the scheme but would provide an educational element, informing the public on legal matters also. At present one of the main difficulties is the lack of independence of the Legal Aid Board. Therefore the effective control of the scheme at present lies with the Department of Justice and not with the board, and that is something that needs to be changed.

Any expansion of the scheme, recruitment of staff and amending of the scheme in any way, can only take place with the expressed consent of the Minister for Justice and the Government of the day. This is so inhibiting as to render the Legal Aid Board deficient. Local communities, therefore, have no input into the scheme and centres are rarely charged with a task greater than court appearances. The fact that the Legal Aid Board have no say in the expansion of the scheme or in the recruitment of staff is very much regrettable and has contributed to the present crisis.

I make these points to underline my contention that funding alone is not the solution to the problem, although increased funds are very badly needed at present. I would urge the Minister, as an interim measure, to make a decision on funding prior to the end of this debate. Indeed, the Minister has, by virtue of the Government amendment, referred to funding but this is exactly the same reference that was made last October, It is money that was allocated prior to the resignations. If the House is going to note with approval the extra allocation of funding, what is all the fuss about in the Legal Aid Board? Why have there been resignations? Why is there a continuous clamour from people saying they are denied justice if we are going to note with approval what the Government have done? In effect, the extra allocation of £425,000, about which the Minister has spoken in such laudable terms, will just about keep open the four centres opened in 1986 under the then Coalition Government. When the Minister says he is undertaking a positive service towards the expansion of civil legal aid by giving £425,000, he is forgetting to make a deduction for the drying up of the funds under the Funds of Suitors Act, which leaves a net increase of something considerably short of £200,000, an increase we in this House should not be proud of having regard to the system that is operating at present.

If concepts of access and equality are to be taken seriously, we must consider a community-based model which identifies closely with the needs, demands and wishes of the under-privileged in our society. The only example of that in this country is that which exists in Coolock. On behalf of the Fine Gael Party, I would like to pay sincere tribute to those who work in the law centre in Coolock under very difficult circumstances. They do not get a penny from the Department of Justice. They got a few bob from the Minister for Social Welfare and also from the Combat Poverty Agency but I do not think that is a vehicle by which we should be providing legal aid to the consumers. The Coolock Law Centre have also taken a considerable amount of burden and pressure off the Legal Aid Board. If it were not for them, the crisis that exists throughout the Dublin centres would be even greater. The resignations by members of the Legal Aid Board over the past few weeks and the amount of time spent writing to the newspapers, even after the extra allocation by the Minister, is a reflection of the dire need to tackle the problem and I do not believe the Minister has even come near that.

The only significant improvement was the decision in the mid-eighties by the then Government to expand the scheme by setting up centres in Tralee and Athlone and a second centre in Cork and Tallaght. As the Minister said, funding was from the Funds of Suitors legislation. That is gone now and for that reason the amendment in the name of the Minister is nothing more than a fraud. There is no real increase in cash at all, no matter what kind of gloss we might put on it in terms of amending motions.

There are a number of questions that I had hoped might have been addressed in the debate but as the Minister for Social Welfare, who is sitting in for the Minister for Justice, is not even going to listen to the debate I will put the questions to the House for the record. Does the Minister accept that an element of private involvement in the system is to be recommended having regard to the huge areas of rural Ireland in which there is no service and the constant strain on resources that appearing in far-flung courts imposes on solicitors operating under the scheme? Eighteen counties have no service. Does the Minister now accept the urgent need to keep each centre open and operational and will he commit himself to the provision of eight new law centres throughout the country?

Does the Minister accept that the legislation of recent years affecting the family has had an enormous effect on legal aid — for example, the legislation I have already mentioned — and that the Legal Aid Board resources will be further stretched when the 1989 legislation comes on stream? Does the Minister accept that article 6 of the Convention on Human Rights is now being honoured and that there is real and practical access to the courts for the people, having regard to our present system of legal aid? It is of vital importance that if a scheme of legal aid is to be offered to the people, the future of the system be at least debated in the House. I would refer the House to paragraph 13.1, page 24, of the 1986 report which——

The Deputy has eight minutes remaining and the order of the House requires that I invite the Deputy now to move the Adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.
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