Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Defence Forces Representative Body. – Dáil Éireann (26th Dáil) – Thursday, 8 Mar 1990

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Defence Forces Representative Body.

Edward Nealon

Question:

1 Mr. Nealon asked the Minister for Defence if, in his proposed schedule of developments for the setting up of a representative body or bodies in the Defence Forces, he plans to introduce firstly legislation dealing with the format and structure of such bodies and to have this completed and enacted before proceeding with elections within the Defence Forces for that body; when the legislation will be introduced; when the elections will take place; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Patrick McCartan

Question:

3 Mr. McCartan asked the Minister for Defence if his attention has been drawn to statements made on 27 February 1990 by representatives of the Permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association that they planned to boycott proposed elections for representative structures organised by his Department; if, in view of the fact that these elections would have little credibility if boycotted by members of the association, he will agree to meet with their representative to try to secure agreement on representative structures which would be acceptable to all; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Seán Ryan

Question:

5 Mr. Ryan asked the Minister for Defence if his attention has been drawn to the public notification of elections by the Permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association for the Western, Eastern, Southern, Curragh, Naval Service and Air Corps Command Committees; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Eamon Gilmore

Question:

16 Mr. Gilmore asked the Minister for Defence the number of Defence Forces personnel who have notified the military authorities of their membership of the Permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association, at the latest date for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Seán Ryan

Question:

31 Mr. Ryan asked the Minister for Defence if he has received and read the constitution, objects and rules of the Permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association; and, in the context of his own proposals for a representative body, if he will make a statement on the matter.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Lenihan)

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1, 3, 5, 16 and 31 together.

I expect to introduce a Bill in the House within a week, in fact next Tuesday, which will provide for the establishment of representative associations for members of the Permanent Defence Force for the purpose of representing them on remuneration and related matters. The new legislation will be enabling and the detailed arrangements will be provided for by regulation. Representatives of the new association will be elected by secret ballot by the personnel whom they are to represent, the purpose being to give members of the force a representative voice on pay and related matters; on conditions of service, other than matters which would affect areas such as security, discipline, command and military operations; and, on welfare matters such as credit union, family support systems, recreational facilities and medical benefit schemes.

The detailed arrangements in regard to the operation of the new system, including access to the media, funding, meetings and conciliation and arbitration will be worked out in consultation with the elected representatives. In general terms, however, it is contemplated that a system of conciliation and arbitration will be provided; spokespersons will be permitted to make statements to the news media on matters which fall within the scope of the representative associations; associations will be given certain facilities in the matter of accommodation and staffing by the State; subscriptions to meet other expenses will be permitted, the level of such subscriptions to be the subject of discussion with the representatives who emerge from the election process; there will be regular meetings of representatives in military installations to whatever extent is required.

I wish to emphasise that the arrangements will be fully protected by legislation and regulations. Moreover, there is no question of imposing a system without consultation; on the contrary every opportunity will be accorded to the duly elected representatives to participate in the formulation and finalisation of the arrangements.

As I indicated in reply to questions on 6 February 1990 it is important that the House be satisfied that the arrangements being introduced strike the correct balance between giving the members of the Permanent Defence Force a representative voice in relation to their pay and other conditions of service, and at the same time, maintaining proper controls in essential areas such as command and operations. I also wish to stress again the importance of refraining from action which would, in effect, seek to pre-empt the decision of the Oireachtas.

Full opportunity to debate this important development will be provided when I bring the proposed legislation before the House for a Second Stage reading on next Tuesday, an arrangement which has been agreed between the Whips.

Mr. Nealon

The Minister has repeated that he does not intend to impose anything and yet he has told us that legislation to deal with this matter will be introduced next week. The Minister has given us a broad outline of what that legislation will contain. However, meaningful consultations will not take place. We now have it official from the officers——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should proceed by way of supplementary questions.

Mr. Nealon

——of the Curragh Command and from PDFORRA and I should like to ask the Minister what he is doing if he is not imposing his own structure on the Defence Forces.

Mr. Lenihan

I will be elaborating on this next Tuesday. I am going even further than the suggestions contained in the memorandum prepared by the PDFORRA. I am giving a system of conciliation and arbitration in addition to what they suggest. What they have suggested in regard to the general principles I have mentioned is on all fours with the views I have made known to the House. I have with me the full proposals made by this body and I have followed them — it is important that I should emphasise that — and they are on all fours with what the Garda representative body have in regard to their function with their members. There is no conflict whatever in regard to what the objectives should be, that they should cover pay, conditions and the welfare matters I mentioned. The body, or bodies, when established, can have access to the media and can adopt their funding arrangements in addition to being facilitated in regard to accommodation by the Department of Defence. There is really nothing between us. However, what is there is the fact that those who will form the personnel of the new representative body will be elected by all the personnel in the Defence Forces, the various commands of the Army, the Navy and the Air Corps. I will be meeting representatives, elected by the personnel of the Defence Forces, following the passing of legislation by the House. The democratic structure of Oireachtas Éireann, and the Government elected by Oireachtas Éireann, will be in a position to place the legislation on record. As a result of that legislation agreement can be reached through elected representatives on behalf of the military personnel and military headquarters of the details of what are to be the agreed structures to meet the case put by PDFORRA or anybody else. I cannot put the issue clearer than that. Everything is being allowed but the important distinction is that it will be done under the legislation passed by the Oireachtas. The ultimate power resides with the Oireachtas and the Government of the day in regard to these matters, and that is as it should be. Within that broad framework full consultation will take place. It will take place not with any self appointed group, or any self appointed people, but with the representatives elected by the members of the Defence Forces.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must again appeal for brevity having regard to the time limit imposed in respect of these questions.

Mr. Lenihan

The Deputy should watch the security aspect of this.

Mr. Nealon

The Chair will accept that I am always very brief and to the point. If the Minister is so reasonable why is it that he did not have consultations? Why did the officers of the Curragh Command say that what the Minister is proposing is not remotely near to what they seek? Why are PDFORRA going to boycott the Minister's suggestions?

Mr. Lenihan

Please do not go on, this is too important and sensitive a matter. I should like to ask the Deputy to control what he has to say in this respect. What the officers of the Curragh Command did had nothing to do with our legislation. That is what I would expect from any Army group expressing a point of view.

That is a difference of opinion between officers of the Curragh Command and their own headquarters officer staff. That is an internal matter between officers and it has nothing to do, and I should hope it would have nothing to do, with what is passed by the Oireachtas. What I will be doing on Tuesday is bringing in legislation embodying what I have said to the Deputy. It will provide for a democratic election subsequently and, arising out of that, the structuring of a representative body and the arrangements for that in conjunction with the elected representatives. That is all an internal matter for the Army subsequent to the Oireachtas laying down the parameters.

We are into this area now and I want to repudiate the suggestion that there are any officers in the Curragh or anywhere else taking action vis-á-vis me, because as Minister for Defence I have never proposed any alternative structure or sought to impose any alternative structure. This will all flow from the decision of the Oireachtas because that is where the power resides. The Deputy must be careful in this matter; the ultimate power in this area must reside with the Oireachtas.

Mr. Nealon

There is absolutely no point——

An Ceann Comhairle

May I intervene again to say that ten minutes have now elapsed in respect of these questions and I have not as yet called a second Deputy. I am calling Deputy McCartan.

Mr. Nealon

I sincerely object to the Minister threatening me across the floor of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McCartan and Deputy Ryan have questions tabled also on this subject. Order, please, I again appeal for brevity.

Mr. McCartan

I will attempt to be brief. I want to put on record my acknowledgment of the Minister's efforts. I remember only too well that we were going nowhere last year but we are now making remarkable progress. I would urge the Minister, in the context of my question to consider that the permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association represents a little more than a self-appointed organisation. There appears to be breakdown in communications. Respecting the primacy of the Oireachtas in the matter— we will debate the Bill next week — would he arrange at an early date to meet them to appraise them fully that there is little if anything between what the Minister proposes and what they are seeking?

Mr. Lenihan

I have been at pains to say just that in reply to questions here and in public statements and I have gone on the media to explain patiently everything that is involved. A small minority of people do not seem to appreciate the situation. I would like to use this occasion to ask the members of the Permanent Defence Forces Other Ranks Representative Association, or anybody else in the Army, whether it is the officers in the Curragh, in the Navy or the Air Corp who have a view on these matters, to put themselves forward for election. When the time for the election comes I will ensure that it is fully supervised, that, in every sense there will be a fair election by secret ballot, broken down in the most democratic manner, and that all these aspects will be fully taken into account. At this stage I do not want to start receiving diverse representations from various elements within the Defence Forces. Once the legislation is in place, I or the Chief of Staff will meet these people to discuss the details which will inevitably arise. That meeting should be between the elected representatives of the personnel of the Defence Forces and the appropriate authorities. When you think it through you will see that is the way it should be because at that stage the representatives will have been elected by their fellow members — I take it that the people in a democratic parliament know what I am talking about. This gives them a mandate and a democratic legitimacy and entitlement to speak on behalf of the members. That provision does not exist at the moment. I do not know with whom I am dealing.

Mr. McCartan

There is a constitution.

An Ceann Comhairle

Could I bring in Deputy Sean Ryan who has a question tabled?

Mr. Lenihan

I have read that constitution and I agree with 95 per cent of it. I will go even further and say that, in their proposed objectives, they do not mention a system of conciliation and arbitration which, in my view, is most important. I am ahead of them in proposing that they include a system of conciliation and arbitration similar to that covering the public service and the Garda Síochána. That is the most important suggestion I have made.

An analysis of the general outline — I know the details will be hammered out in the manner I have discussed — will show that the proposals I am advancing are more radical and progressive and will give members of the Defence Forces a real say, for the first time since the formation of the State, in how they can put forward their point of view to their representatives on the matters I have mentioned.

Mr. Ryan

With all due respect that might be the Minister's view——

Mr. Lenihan

Will the Deputy tell me where I am wrong?

Mr. Ryan

The Minister tends to adopt a conciliatory approach——

Mr. Lenihan

Of course.

Mr. Ryan

——but that is not the position on the ground.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must proceed by way of supplementary question, please.

Mr. Ryan

Will the Minister not accept that notification of elections by the PDFORRA and the threatened boycott of the Minister's elections is very disturbing? Will he not accept that the responsibility for this lies with him in view of his insistence — and this is the kernel — on an internal structure? Given the Minister's conciliatory view, would he not once and for all say that he will recognise PDFORRA and meet them? They met the Minister on four occasions and told him——

An Ceann Comhairle

Questions please Deputy. I want to assist the Deputy but he must proceed by way of question.

Mr. Lenihan

All I will say is that I agree with what they are suggesting. They have a chance to be legitimised by holding an election, just as the Deputy was elected here rather than somebody else——

Mr. Nealon

He knows what he was elected to.

Mr. Lenihan

I will give those guarantees in the debate next week.

Mr. Ryan

We will have an opportunity to discuss it on Tuesday, but before anyone is offered an opportunity to vote I put to the Minister that they should know what they are voting for and what is involved. In order that this problem be resolved it is important that the Minister recognise PDFORRA and meet with them. That is the kernel of the problem.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 8 Mar 1990