Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Mar 1990

Vol. 397 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Defence (Amendment) Bill, 1990: Second Stage (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Minister for Defence, Deputy Lenihan, on Tuesday, 13 March 1990:

That the Bill be now a read a Second Time.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:

"Dáil Éireann declines to give the Bill a second reading until such time as the document entitledPermanent Defence Force — Representative Groups has been published generally and has been considered and debated by Dáil Éireann.

—(Deputy Nealon.)

Mr. M. Higgins

Last evening I laid emphasis on the constitutional doubt that hangs over section 6 of the Bill. I do not want to reiterate those arguments, but I want to repeat my request to the Minister or the Minister of State to answer the points I made in relation to the inhibitions that have been placed in the way not only of military personnel but of ordinary citizens.

I will summarise the arguments I made last evening. It would be extraordinary were a Minister for Defence to initiate legislation in this House which sought to circumscribe not only the rights of the enlisted men and women for whom the Minister of the day had responsibility but also sought to extend that proscription on free comment to ordinary citizens. Thus I find it quite outrageous that any Minister appointed under the system of powers we have would seek to limit a citizen's right to advocate trade union membership in the Army.

One point I did not make which I have some questions about is in relation to section 2 (4) which provides that a member shall not join any trade union or any other body — those three words are the most important — which seeks to influence the remuneration or other conditions of service of members of the Defence Forces. That exclusion in itself is so general as to be entirely unsatisfactory. It is providing that a body, which it has been decided will be the one to which people shall be organised for representative and consultative purposes, shall be the only body which one should join. One is in an interesting position here. If somebody through, let us say, membership of some social welfare body or other such body was addressing the issue of low pay in the armed forces and produced a report which commented upon the inequity of people being on low pay, to avoid sanctions, one would be required automatically to leave that body. The sweeping generalisation of this exclusion is outrageous. I warn that the tests of this provision on legal grounds will not only be in relation to the Constitution, but they will be in relation to the other charters which preserve, quite correctly, the right of speech, assembly, and so forth.

I do not intend to dwell on these points in the few minutes I have left because they have been made extensively. However, I want to stress a few other points in the Minister's speech. Reading it one would get the impression that what is being proposed in the legislation is the outcome of a long and satisfactory consultative process. From meeting people involved directly it is very clear — unless the Minister demonstrates otherwise that this is far from so. The Minister might like to tell us about the difference between what the Gleeson Committee would have liked to do, and sought to do, and what they were allowed to do. I understand that the view presented to the Gleeson Committee was that after pay the structures of representatives were the most important issue in the Army. In relation to the Gleeson Committee's remit being extended to enable them to consult with those who were organising themselves at that stage, there was a Government refusal. Nevertheless, some of the groups who now find themselves threatened in a sense in terms of their freedom by the proposed legislation met with the Gleeson Committee and I understand they found that committee anxious to deal comprehensively with the remit they have been given in the medium term rather than the short-term. It is very important to relate to the question of the study group. I understand the briefing notes which Opposition Members spoke about last night were distributed on 5 January. The study group met with one of the groups who were very interested in this legislation, the NCO group, on 8 January. They were told that the sole topic for discussion would be the briefing notes. Here one is uncovering the whole authoritarian ethos of discussions that took place with people not being able to sit down together in a reasonable fashion with an open agenda that would have as its purpose the evolution of democratic and consultative structures. Consider a study group meeting with a group who are affected by the sets of draft regulations you have distributed a few days earlier and then say, "We cannot discuss what might be in your minds; we can only discuss what we have circulated". To people involved in organised trade union activity, or any other forms of democratic activity, that smacks of the authoritarian ethos that has led up to this draft legislation.

Many people have come to me at different times to discuss what might emerge in relation to the structures. People wanted an association and they said so. They expressed themselves as being disappointed. At this stage I appeal to the Minister again to try to save something from the position. The one way to do this is to amend this legislation comprehensively but, above all, to create an atmosphere of openness.

For all these reasons the Labour Party put down an amendment. We find the legislation constitutionally flawed, it emerged out of a consultation process that was inadequate and it is in the interests of nobody — the Army, the Oireachtas or the public. We strongly appeal to the Minister to move back from an entirely wrong structure.

Mr. Clohessy

I wish to share my time with Deputy Power.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Clohessy

Over the past 18 months in particular there has been much debate on the working conditions of the members of our Defence Forces. We are all aware that this was one of the main issues in the general election of June last year. Undoubtedly, the conditions which pertained in the past, for members of the Army in particular, were far from satisfactory and in the negotiations between my party and Fianna Fáil on the formation of the present Government in July this issue received particular attention.

The agreed programme deals specifically with the issue of pay for the Defence Forces and part of the agreed programme for Government states that the long-term objective is that Army pay should be restructured with the aim of substantially improving basic pay and reducing the over-dependence of soldiers on special Army duty allowances.

Soon after the Government came to office, the new Minister for Defence, Deputy Lenihan, established the independent pay committee who are still sitting. This was a vitally important step forward in resolving the many problems affecting the working conditions of members of the Defence Forces. Today's debate concerns a second major initiative by the Government and the Minister for Defence relating to working conditions of members of the Defence Forces, the putting in place of arrangements for the holding of elections for people to represent the associations on behalf of the members of the armed forces. Both those initiatives, the independent pay commission and the proposed establishment of representative associations are vitally important measures and I am confident that they will satisfactorily resolve the many issues legitimately bothering those people who have voluntarily taken on the difficult and onerous duty of defending this country and its citizens.

Unfortunately, the debate relating to the proposed establishment of the representative associations has been the subject of misrepresentation and confusion. The Progressive Democrats have consistently supported the right of the members of the Defence Forces to have representative bodies. The legislation now before the Dáil is a satisfactory basis for bringing this about. My party colleague, Deputy Molloy, a former Minister for Defence, has been involved in discussing this matter with the Minister, Deputy Lenihan, and I and my party colleagues are satisfied that the proposals now before the Dáil provide an acceptable basis for the formation of such bodies. The most important point to bear in mind is that this is enabling legislation to provide a mechanism for the holding of elections and to give members of the Defence Forces a mandate to speak on behalf of the forces as a whole. It is only when these elections have been held that detailed discussions can take place on the regulations which will govern the associations. In that process the elected representatives of the Defence Forces will have their say.

The legislation prescribes a set of carefully chosen stages in the process leading to the formation of the representative associations and the establishment of the regulations governing their operation. It is important that every Member of the House and members of the Defence Forces and their families should take careful note of the various Stages of the Bill. If this is done it will be seen that the mechanism proposed is fair and equitable and will work satisfactorily.

As the Minister informed the Dáil yesterday, he will be appointing an independent offical from the Department of the Environment to supervise the holding of the elections. That person will be available to receive submissions from all interested groupings, including PDFORRA, on the system of election to be held so that it will have a broad-based acceptance. The elections will be held on the basis of a secret ballot with a single transferable vote, similar to the system used in a general election. When the Defence Forces have elected people to speak on their behalf they will sit down with the Minister for Defence and his officials to discuss the structures and the proposed regulations governing the way the association will operate. Nothing could be more open and democratic. The people who will have been given a mandate by every member of the Defence Forces will be parties to the formulation of the regulations to govern the conduct of the association in direct talks with the Minister and his officials. There has been no pre-empting of this situation and the regulations have not been drawn up. This will be a task for the elected representatives in consultation and negotiation with the Minister for Defence.

I understand that another matter of concern to members of the Defence Forces is also open to full democratic discussion. I am referring to the number of associations which will be set up; in other words if it is decided that there should be a single association for privates and NCOs, that can be the way forward. However, if there is a democratic decision that there should be two separate associations that will be accepted.

Another important matter which can be resolved in the discussions between the elected members of the Defence Forces and the Minister and his staff is the question of how the representative associations should be organised geographically. Will they be based on Army commands or units or in different barracks around the country? This simply underlines the extent to which nothing has been pre-empted at this stage. All the key issues affecting the establishment of the associations will be agreed between the soldiers' elected representatives and the Minister.

When all these facts are conveyed to the various members of the Defence Forces they will come to realise that the proposed system is fair and reasonable. The elected representatives will have a full say in all the pertinent matters relating to the proposed associations, the regulations governing them and the matters which the associations can deal with, including pay, allowances, grants and pensions. It is also worth pointing out that there will be a gap between Second Stage and Committee Stage which will allow for the fullest consideration by all interested parties in the legislation before the Dáil.

Mr. Nealon

That is not what the Whips said just now.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should be allowed to make a speech in his own way without interruptions.

Mr. Clohessy

This will allow for the fullest consideration by all interested parties in this legislation and any additional constructive proposals can be taken into account on Committee Stage. The Minister for Defence, Deputy Lenihan, should be warmly commended for the way he approached the task of establishing representative associations for the Army and for facilitating the fullest consultation possible.

Having considered the proposals in detail and having been sensitive and sympathetic to the legitimate grievances of members of the Defence Forces, the Progressive Democrats are quite satisfied that the mechanism put in place for the holding of elections and providing a basis for negotiation and discussion on the role and functions of the proposed associations are reasonable and satisfactory. We owe the members of the Defence Forces a great deal as they are ultimately our last line of defence against terrorism and anarchy. As a former member of the Defence Forces I have a special regard for every person who dons the uniform of our Army. My party and I are determined that legitimate grievances, which they have had for many years, will be fully and comprehensively addressed by the Government.

Mr. Power

May I share my time with Deputy Cullimore?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Power

I am delighted to see this Bill before the House. The question of pay and allied matters were thorny issues in recent years and I am sure these problems can now be solved. The purpose of this Bill is to provide for the establishment of associations for the purpose of representing members of the Defence Forces on remuneration and related matters. The new structure will give members a representative say on pay, allowances, grants, pensions and numerous other matters, as well as access to conciliation and, most importantly, arbitration.

Coming from County Kildare, I think it would be only fitting if I was to pay tribute to the Army for their service to our country and their willingness to answer any call and come up trumps every time. They provide armed military escorts for the movement of money and prisoners. In those operations not as much as one penny or one prisoner has been lost. There must be a lesson to be learned there in regard to armed escorts and using armed men as a deterrent for robbers and wrongdoers. We can see that the Army have played a major role in combating the number of robberies. Their record speaks for itself and I hope they will continue to provide the same type of service for many years to come.

The respect for our Defence Forces is acknowledged right around the world. They have been wonderful ambassadors of our country while they served overseas. No matter what the country, let it be Cyprus, Namibia or Lebanon, the reaction has always been the same. While listening to the speakers here last night I was very surprised to hear some of them refer to the low morale in the Army. I would like to make one very important point. I was pleased to learn of the decision of the Department of Defence to enlist 1,000 new recruits this year. There were 6,920 applications for these posts. This fact can only be seen as an indication of the attraction of Army life for young people.

When we speak of the Defence Forces in the context of this motion, we need to make two facts very clear. The first is that the Defence Forces have been completely loyal to the existing Government of the State ever since its foundation. This loyalty has been displayed and proved beyond doubt in numerous crises, emergencies and difficulties, not only in this country but abroad in every strifetorn land, where we were asked to help as a peace-keeping force. I have no doubt that our present Defence Forces are as loyal today as ever they were and these civvies who try to stir up trouble and sow doubts in the ranks are doing a distinct disservice to the forces and the country.

The second fact that I want to make clear to this House is that our party, Fianna Fáil, have always been loyal to the Defence Forces. In their heart of hearts, the Army, the Navy and the Air Corps know that. I can say that the Army demonstrated their appreciation of our party in the only way that was open to them, and their appreciation was quantified and measured each time the postal vote was counted. I must acknowledge that there was a change at the last election when a number of Army candidates ran but nevertheless I am confident that we will once again enjoy their tremendous support.

Probably the greatest mistake was made at the foundation of the State when we accepted fully the imperial inheritance of the British Army structure and embraced it in toto. In hindsight a slimmed down Defence Force that would have evolved to suit particular Irish needs would have been better, but the winds of change are blowing through the ranks now and the frank forward thinking, modern thinking, as is evident in this Bill is an indication of this much needed change.

Our Army are small, perhaps too small for the various duties expected of them. They are really like a family or a team and there cannot be any place for factions or divisions. I am not aware of any tug-of-war between the administration and the ranks. Nor am I aware of any rift between the NCOs and men or between the officers and NCOs. Naturally enough, there will always be a degree of cribbing in every army but this is quickly submerged when discipline demands. Discipline cannot be over-emphasised. Over 200 years ago, George Washington wrote in Letters of Instructions to the Captains of the Virginia Regiment: "Discipline is the soul of the army. It makes small numbers formidable, procures success to the weak, and esteem to all".

I am convinced that the Defence Forces need this legislation. They have the right to protect themselves and to look for a higher and better life. In other European countries troops have the right of association granted to them without their military efficiency being impaired in any way. I heard a Dutchman being interviewed on the radio yesterday and he confirmed this. He expressed an opinion that the Bill gives to the Defence Forces all that any normal soldier would need.

Through the setting up of this group, members of our Permanent Defence Force will have a say on matters such as remuneration and conditions of service. They will have available for the first time, a process of conciliation and arbitration, a privilege which up to now, has only been afforded to their colleagues in the public service, but surely, it should not be a privilege; surely it is the basic right of every working man and woman to negotiate with his or her employer, conditions of pay, service and allied matters. Through this new structure, the Government are providing this fundamental right to the Defence Forces.

Deputy Noonan, in his contribution last night, stated that the problems in the Defence Forces were not created over the last two years, they have been ongoing for a number of years, and I must agree with the Deputy. However, it is unfortunate that when a serious attempt is being made to solve the problem, a number of Opposition Deputies continue to make a political football out of the issue. If one was to ask what are the main grievances the Defence Forces had, and eventually led to the Army wives taking to the streets and the setting up of PDFORRA, the answer would be pay, an independent organisation and a right to talk to the media. This Bill will help to establish an independent organisation and when the associations are set up, the representatives will be free to talk to the media.

An independent pay commission has already been set up and I am confident that it can bring forward acceptable proposals in the near future. We must accept that those who have fought a battle over that last couple of years for a better deal for the Defence Forces will find it difficult to accept these proposals. However, I am sure that in time, they will accept this Bill as not just meeting what was proposed by PDFORRA but much more.

I has been suggested that members of PDFORRA will be reluctant to take part in the elections. I would say to them: take part, this is your chance, this is your election. While most of the members of PDFORRA will be happy with their new organisation and with what they have helped to achieve, it has to be admitted that the officials are self-appointed and that while they may be happy now, there is no guarantee that this will always be the case. In setting up any organisation or structure, is it not obvious that the fairest, most honest and most democratic way to go about it is to hold an election, one man, one vote?

I look forward to the full participation of the members of the Defence Forces in setting up this structure, a structure which will give each man a say in such matters as pay, welfare matters and conditions of service. Living close to the Curragh, I feel I have a good idea of the problems facing many of the families of Army men. Accommodation in some of the living quarters leaves a lot to be desired. Low wages have also caused many problems. I, along with everyone else, look forward to next June when Gleeson will report on Army pay.

I would say to those who are finding fault with this Bill: it is nice to see you taking an interest in the Army. You are usually unaware of their presence, until there is a bus strike, a petrol strike, refuse uncollected or some nasty mess to be cleared up. Please continue to show the interest expressed here tonight and last night. Certain parties in this House have been known to express an opinion that we could do without an army. When a military barracks was to be built in some counties, there were objections. Some speakers here tonight and last night, for their own petty, political purposes, have not helped the morale of the Defence Forces.

The Minister for Defence has made a straightforward effort to help the Army in this Bill. He intends getting this Bill passed and he will succeed. He deserves to succeed because his motives are correct. The thinking and the spirit of the Bill are correct. It will restore the dented morale of the Army and give them courage and hope. That is what morale means — confidence, zeal and loyalty. I believe that the esprit de corps and determination shown by the Minister for Defence and the Fianna Fáil Party in this House tonight will evoke a reciprocal response in all the ranks of Ireland's Defence Forces. I wish the Bill a hasty passage through the House.

Mr. Cullimore

I would like to compliment the Minister on bringing this imaginative legislation before the House. The Bill provides for the establishment of associations for the purpose of allowing members of the Defence Forces to express their views on matters related to pay, grants and pensions without compromising the systems of control within the Defence Forces. Two radical measures initiated last year are clear evidence of the Government's commitment and concern for the well being of the Defence Forces. The independent pay commission was established to inquire into the remuneration and conditions of service of the Permanent Defence Forces. The work of the commission is proceeding. Preparations were made for the establishment of new representative associations. There can be no doubting the bona fides of the Minister in this matter. What has been done represents completely fresh thinking.

The Bill is straightforward in that it is enabling legislation, just like the corresponding Garda Síochána legislation. The detail is left for inclusion in regulations which are more flexible and more appropriate to what is an unfolding situation. In leaving the detail for incorporation in the regulations, subject to scrutiny by the Dáil, the new system is similar to what applied to the Garda Síochána under the Garda Síochána Act. We are all aware of the tremendous goodwill which the Garda representative body have established between the Government, the public and the Garda Force themselves.

Consultation is obviously the essence of the Bill. The association will represent members in relation to pay, allowances, gratuities, grants and pensions, welfare matters, recreational facilities, medical benefit schemes and family support systems. Contrary to allegations made by members of the PDFORRA, members will be allowed to make statements to the news media on matters which fall within their mandate and the associations will be allowed to raise money by subscriptions. It is essential that the Defence Forces have a forum for expressing their views in relation to their pay and other conditions of service. It is equally important that the discipline and order which exists within the Defence Forces is not compromised. It is important to facilitate the wishes of the Defence Forces while at the same time ensuring that the common or public good is not compromised. This Bill ensures that the proper balance is maintained.

An examination of representative bodies in other European countries suggest there is a great diversity of arrangements in different countries. I welcome the election of members to the representative bodies and this will ensure that genuine views and problems will be brought to the attention of the Minister. The appointment of a senior official of the franchise section of the Department of the Environment will ensure that these elections are carried out in a proper and democratic manner. The Minister is to be complimented on seeking submissions from interested parties to determine a suitable system of election. The Bill will give members of the Defence Forces a real say on pay and related matters while at the same time it will not compromise the system of control within the Defence Forces.

The Bill brings a fine balance to a very sensitive issue. The new representative bodies for the Defence Forces will be independently entitled to speak to the media and will be able to negotiate pay and a whole range of welfare issues. I welcome this Bill and wish it a speedy passage through the House.

Debate adjourned.