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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Mar 1990

Vol. 397 No. 7

Social Welfare Bill, 1990: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That section 12, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

Deputies Ferris and Flaherty raised various points about the lone parent scheme. This scheme is a very important and valuable development which has been widely welcomed. I shall bring the scheme into operation by regulation as early as possible. I have noted the points made by Deputies in relation to the subsections of section 12.

Although this scheme represents an advance, we must in the future go further and introduce measures which will maximise the opportunities for lone parents to achieve some degree of financial independence. They must be given educational opportunities and the means to develop skills and raise their confidence levels in order to make it possible for them to return to work. Unless this is done lone parents will be permanently dependent on the scheme without an opportunity of enhancing their position.

I note what has been said in relation to child care facilities and I am anxious to ensure that lone parents are facilitated in this respect. The scheme sets the scene for the future. Deputy Flaherty has recognised that we have been putting things in place during the past two years in order to go ahead at this stage with the lone parent scheme. It is my conviction that we should go further in assisting and encouraging lone parents to get back into the workforce where they are capable of doing so and where it is suitable for them. It will not be suitable in all circumstances but I believe a substantial number could get back into the workforce in due course. I should like to see facilities developed which would assist them. This means extra expenditure and must be considered in that context.

In view of the subject matter of Question No. 49, I seek to raise that matter on the Adjournment.

I will communicate with the Deputy.

The lone parent's allowance is a welcome rationalisation. The Minister has given some indication that he will look at two areas of concern. The first of these is the disregarding of earnings and the opportunity to return to work or education. Yesterday it was stated that certain specific categories of lone parents currently are allowed additional expenses. Can we be sure that those relatively favourable terms will be extended to all lone parents when the regulations are introduced?

The other issue is that of cohabitation. The Minister might consider if there could be a more sensitive approach by his officials in dealing with investigations.

Last night about midnight I welcomed the elaboration of some of the expenses that could be set against means testing in the case of lone parent families. Due to a breakdown in communications it is sometimes not known that these allowances are available and some of them are fairly tightly means tested. I asked the Minister if the intention was to pursue spouses who had reneged on their responsibilities and deserted. That can be done within the jurisdiction here and I asked if the Minister had any plans to go outside the jurisdiction within the EC and in Britain in particular. Britain has a close working relationship with the Minister's Department in the area of social welfare contributions, equalisation of contributions, adding together for benefits for people who work here, emigrate, return and work here again, and contributions made in England are taken into account and given credit for here.

In that close working relationship with the Department is it possible that the Minister may be able to ensure, through either the social welfare system in England or the tax system there, that people cannot just drive away in a BMW and expect the State to take up the tab for their responsibilities? Deputy Byrne worried about the trauma of going into court, but there is a widely held view that it is time these people made a contribution to their family. Up to now their spouses have been requested by the Department to pursue them but have often been unable to do so legally because of their inability to benefit from free legal aid and they found themselves unable to claim maintenance in the Family Court. I welcome the fact that the Department are taking that responsibility on to themselves and that payment to the beneficiaries will not be interrupted in the meantime.

I continue to express concern and reservation about what ultimately is going to happen on foot of the information the Minister gave us, which has been supported by various other Deputies, about how he is going to define alleged cohabitation. He said that allegations more often than not are made by people to his Department and that it is not really his inspectors who are out snooping. That worries me. I would almost go as far as to say that maybe on occasions I would prefer it would be the inspectors rather than reports from neighbours.

Is that The Workers' Party policy?

We politicians have all heard the most incredible, outlandish, outrageous comments from constituents about the so-called carry-on in the house down the road or the house next door. I have vivid memories of an artisan dwelling type housing complex where people were buying and letting to young people from rural Ireland, and the scandal put about by people who had lived all their lives in that area about the carry-on was quite frightening, to say the least. There is danger involved in the Minister acting on such allegations made by people on the street. You would want to be extremely careful, especially if you are going to try to chase fathers for payments, if the information you are getting from the neighbourhood is that a certain gentleman has been seen frequenting a house occupied by a person in receipt of a lone parent's allowance and that woman subsequently has children. It is an awkward, delicate area. I would like some further information from the Minister as to how he hopes to chase up the errant fathers.

There is nothing more reprehensible — and we have all experienced it in our contacts with people in the city — than a husband and father just walking out, thumbing his nose at the family unit and acknowledging no obligations, financial or otherwise to them. It happens, and I have no hang-up about claiming back some money from such spouses. However, there are more awkward cases. Think of the young unmarried mother chasing the father, bringing him to court, proving paternity and so on. Section 12 provides that: "A lone parent shall not, if and so long as he and any person are cohabiting as man and wife, be entitled to and shall be disqualified for receiving payment of an allowance." Will the Minister explain how he envisages the classification of living together as man and wife? Is it a weekend relationship? There are all sorts of relationships. How will we apply the definition of cohabiting as man and wife?

Unfortunately, our amendment No. 41 to section 16 which we consider of key importance to this debate was ruled out of order. By it we sought to insert "but such day or dates shall not be later than three months from the date of enactment of this Act". The Minister obviously has a fair amount of work to do but, going through this Bill today and tomorrow, it would be nice to know at the end of it all when the scheme for the lone parent's allowance will be implemented. We would have liked to provide that it commenced within a three month period but as that was ruled out of order I request the Minister to give me some ideas on that.

If a single parent is in receipt of £53 and some inspector from the Department decides that cohabitation is going on, how will the disqualification be implemented? Is £53 to be just whipped away from the lone parent? Does the Minister envisage a different approach to removing the allowance?

On a point of order, are we discussing sections 12 and 15 together? Section 15 is in relation to pursuing the payments and there has been a good deal of discussion on that.

They are being discussed together.

I did not deal with section 15 in my remarks.

We can come back to it. There was no agreement to discuss them together. It has just been happening.

I think the decision was that we take them separately, that we would deal with section 12, dispose of that and come then to the other.

Much of the discussion has related to the pursuit of husbands and I would like to ask questions on that.

We can dispose of section 12 and then move on.

What Deputy Byrne and Deputy Flaherty have referred to comes under section 15 but indirectly it has some application in this area. If allegations are made they are investigated. It is a difficult area but it would be much more difficult if we did not have any controls.

I am asking the Minister to explain the control mechanism.

The High Court do not have any difficulty in understanding the intentions of the operations of the system. Such schemes are operated in other administrations and it is a control measure which is used very sensitively by social welfare officers. Of course, an isolated incident will be highlighted and suggestions will be made that this sort of thing is happening everywhere but there is nothing unusual about that. A person seeking something to which he or she is not entitled will always complain. When we get the extra money to implement schemes of this kind conditions must be attached to keep them under control. The control measure in question has operated satisfactorily and the number of cases which the Deputy mentioned is extremely small. I do not want to highlight that because you do not want to suggest that control measures are not there. I assure the Deputy that it will be handled with sensitivity.

Deputy Ferris raised the question of pursuing people outside the administration. It is possible and is part of the system but we need people to undertake this. The Deputy will be glad to know that preliminary discussions have already taken place with the Department of Social Security in Britain. Obviously it is very practical as far as we are concerned because of the free movement between the two countries.

Deputy Flaherty and Deputy Ferris also raised the question of the means test generally. Deputy Flaherty was concerned that the test would apply to everybody and that some people might lose out in the process. I do not know if Deputies have seen the fact sheet, which was published for circulation with this Bill. They contain the proposals but they are only information sheets with press releases and so on. These are merely proposals and later on we will get out another fact sheet bearing in mind what Deputies said. The means test will be the same as that used for the widows' non-contributory pension and it is designed to allow for a certain amount of part-time work. However, that will be spelt out more clearly in the final leaflet following the passing of the Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 13 and 14, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 15.
Question proposed: "That section 15 stand part of the Bill."

Unless I am misinterpreting it, this is the section which extends the requirement of the Minister to pursue the new category of lone parents who have failed to maintain their children. Is that correct?

Yes, it covers the whole group.

The Minister effectively admitted yesterday that, although he had the power, nobody had been pursued under it last year. This year the Minister is extending the power, which I welcome in principle. When we discussed the Status of Children Act we referred to the fact that other jurisdictions go much further in ensuring that parents, married or single, take economic responsibility for the children they brought into the world. That is a reasonable position and indeed, in some countries when a child is born without the parent being identified, the authorities require that such identification is made and will even undertake paternity suits, where appropriate. The Minister gave an explanation regarding the difficulties in relation to this when he referred to the fact that the decentralisation of certain sections of his Department had led to a slowing down in the processing of claims. I know he has set up a working party which obviously will also relate to other Departments as well as the Department of Social Welfare. It will also relate to the Revenue Commissioners and there may be legal elements involved as to what he can do. How realistic is this section? When will it be implemented? Does it mean that when a person has proved that he or she is a lone parent — by virtue of desertion or another cause — that from October there will be no requirement to indicate that they have pursued the matter in a particular way? Is that the new situation? Will it not be necessary for them to fulfil this obligation because the Minister intends to pursue it? How realistic is this? When does the Minister expect to have such arrangements in place and what will they involve?

I stated last night that after the move to Sligo the priority was to ensure that the payment of all the different pensions was streamlined. As Deputies know, new staff from other Departments were transferred to the Department of Social Welfare, which created substantial difficulties in terms of training. That has now been completed and things are settling down.

We are also bringing in the full scheme which means that there is hope for streamlining and rationalising the operation which gives us an opportunity to develop other matters, like the question of the liable relative's provision. A detailed report was completed in January. Its recommendations are now being considered and we will very shortly be in a position to bring into force the provision in regard to liable relatives.

It raises the question as to whether you get a provision in an Act which gives power to a Minister or if you should wait until everything else is in place. I, unlike many people, take the first approach although it is dangerous because people criticise you. My colleague in The Workers' Party would be telling me every day that I had powers which I had not used. If I went the other way, I might be ready to do something but would not have the power and would have to wait for an opportunity to introduce a Bill and ensure that it is included in that Bill. I find it is much more practical to get the power and then get the other administrative matters into order as quickly as possible, with all the difficulties that go with them. I appreciate that that may leave Deputies wondering at times if we are really serious about what we discussed here. I would normally make it clear that we would bring in the provision as soon as possible.

Deputy Byrne asked about the lone parents' scheme and the time of its implementation. The date I have given is 1 October but I will certainly try to introduce it earlier if possible. If we were to discuss all the administrative arrangements, it would take a long time because they are quite extensive, as the Deputy may well appreciate, in terms of the different people and the different phases involved. It is not quite as simple as it looks here. Deputy Byrne also asked that the allowance, when it is removed, be phased out and that is something we can consider for the future.

I am quite happy with the Minister's response to the questions I raised. I welcome the dialogue with the DHSS in Britain and I have no doubt the Minister will get co-operation in that matter. One question arises from that. Is it to be taken that it will no longer be necessary for the applicant to prove that she, generally speaking — in some cases he — will no longer be obliged to chase the liable spouse? As the Department are now taking the power on to themselves, are we removing that obligation from the applicant? Do the Department intend to approach employers of liable spouses to ensure that the payment is made directly to the other spouse? I know some voluntary arrangements can be made but perhaps the Minister is looking for more powers in this area and if we knew that we would be happy.

Deputy Ferris is asking much the same question as I asked in regard to the obligation on the individual to seek maintenance. The Minister indicated that this may be removed entirely. There is one great advantage about the way the Minister does things — I do not think there is anybody who is quite such a master at it — in that he makes announcements more often than any other Minister. He announces his intentions, the taking of power and the implementation of schemes. Many people could learn from him. His means of doing things gives him the maximum possible exposure on virtually every issue which he initiates and fair play to him but I do not have great sympathy for him if he has to take a little stick for the fact that some of us want to see proposals implemented earlier than he anticipates. He wants his bread buttered on both sides if he expects us to agree to proposals here while having nothing to show for them later.

Is the Minister satisfied with the powers given? He has had time to have discussions in relation to last year's proposals. The system in relation to people on social welfare is simple enough but the people we would really like to follow up are those who are in a position to support their spouses. It is a question of the Minister having power, for example, in regard to maintenance which a wife or mother could get having proven her case in court. Is that the road the Minister is thinking of taking? At this stage has the Minister adequate powers or what kind of procedures will be required, in relation to private earnings, to recoup from individuals' contributions towards the maintenance of a spouse or children, which, obviously, these people should make themselves? Obviously this will involve costly legal proceedings. Does the Minister anticipate having the staff to process this arrangement?

In calling the Minister, I am looking forward to his advertising his personal reticence and modesty.

I only do my duty when it is necessary. If I publish a regulation which comes under the Act I announce that, "the regulation has been signed by the Minister today", so that Deputy Byrne, who asked about this last night, will know that has happened and so that the researchers will pick it up in the newspapers and decide to have a look at it. At each formal stage announcements obviously have to be made.

Do not look for sympathy as well.

I am glad the announcements are getting across to the Deputy. The detail of the provisions will follow the report I have mentioned. The main extra provision is that it will be possible to get District Court orders, where necessary, to enforce payment. It will also be possible to get attachment orders or whatever kinds of orders are suitable. In so far as possible we want to ensure that the individual will make reasonable efforts to contribute to the maintenance. This raises the question as to what level of maintenance applies and our involvement in that level of maintenance. I said yesterday that I want to look at that area to ensure that it is treated as sympathetically as possible. I do not want to say any more about it at this stage. I think the Deputies will know that my sympathies are in line with theirs in that area but the matters we are talking about have financial consequences. In any event, we will have the necessary power and will be free to exercise it where necessary. We do not want to exercise it unduly but when it is exercised on a few occasions it can have a good effect because people will know they are expected to contribute and can make the arrangements without having to go to court.

I have other ideas in this regard but I will not go into them now because Deputies might hold me to them. There are possibly other ways of going about this matter without necessarily having to go to court but that is something that can be looked at further. We are certainly going to seek that some of the money be returned where that is possible. The Department will be in a position to act on behalf of the person who is seeking the support. Failure to supply the necessary information to establish liability will be an offence and will be subject to substantial fines. As I have said earlier, those powers are provided for in the 1989 Act and we will be bringing them into operation in conjunction with the steps we are taking at this stage.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 16.
Amendment No. 41 not moved.
Section 16 agreed to.
SECTION 17.
Amendment No. 12 not moved.

I move amendment No. 43:

In page 13, lines 4 and 5, after "pension," to insert "or".

Under the provisions of the Bill as initiated the proposed new carer's allowance will be payable, subject to a means test, to persons providing full-time care and attention to incapacitated persons who are in receipt of a specified social welfare payment. The payments in question, which are specified in Chapter 198G, are old age, contributory and non-contributory pension; blind pension; or invalidity pension. In the case of persons aged 66 years or over, widow's, widower's or parents' pension under the occupational injuries benefit scheme; retirement pension; widow's contributory or non-contributory pension or other analogous payments; widower's non-contributory pension or deserted husband's allowance; or the new lone parents' allowance provided for in Part III of the Bill.

I fully accept that there is also a need to entitle to the new allowance persons caring for severely disabled persons who are not in receipt of any of these payments. In order to meet these needs, therefore, as I announced on Second Stage, the Government have approved my proposals to entitle to the allowance persons providing full-time care and attention to recipients of disabled person's maintenance allowance. These amendments are designed to extend the scope of the carer's allowance to include such persons.

As I made known during the Second Stage debate on the Bill, the new carer's allowance represents a very significant improvement on the existing prescribed relative's allowance. The rate of the allowance is being increased from £28 to £45 per week, increases will be payable in respect of dependent children, for the first time married women and persons who are not related to the pensioner will qualify for payment and entitlement will not be affected if other persons are also residing with the pensioner. These are major improvements in the concept of a carer's allowance. The amendments which I am now proposing to include persons caring for recipients of disabled person's maintenance allowance further improve the provisions of the new scheme and I am sure that it will be welcomed by all Members of the House.

The necessary regulations in this regard will be subject to the consent of the Minister for Finance, and section 51 of the Bill, which relates to regulations requiring the sanction of the Minister for Finance, has been amended accordingly. We have extended the concept to include persons caring for severely disabled and incapacitated persons who are in receipt of DPMA; they were not included previously.

As Deputies will appreciate, this category will have to be defined very clearly because the disabled person's maintenance allowance applies to a very wide range of people. The intention is to give the people who are very severely handicapped or incapacitated the equivalent benefits and rights of what we will be covering under the other scheme. It is of course a further enlargement of the scheme.

There is a distinct relationship between amendments Nos. 43, 45 and 80 and it is proposed that we discuss them together.

Are we dealing with amendments?

I am advised that we are dealing with amendments Nos. 43, 45 and 80.

They are all inter-related because the new section has a bearing on other regulations.

I had tabled an amendment in similar terms to the Minister's amendment. I welcome the fact that the Minister indicated at the end of Second Stage that he would take on board our very strong request that the people who were providing care for severely handicapped adults should be included as a category for the proposed new carer's allowance. I welcome the fact that the Minister has taken our request on board. This was one of the major weaknesses of the Bill because the categories of recipients were the same as those established for the prescribed relative's allowance. While the Minister had made substantial progress in widening the categories of persons who might be carers there was no advance in the original proposals in relation to those in need of care. Therefore, their inclusion is a very welcome additional proposal. Are we also discussing the regulations?

Amendment No. 80 proposes the insertion of a new section.

Are we discussing amendment No. 56?

No, we are discussing amendments Nos. 43, 45 and 80.

I will try to come to terms with that and I will come back in again when I have it worked out.

I welcome the Minister's very positive response to many of the points raised by Members on this side of the House. A variety of speakers had indicated that it would be unfair to exclude certain categories of persons in receipt of DPMA from the categories covered by the new carer's allowance. The categories proposed originally were old age pensioners, whether in receipt of a contributory or non-contributory pension, a blind pension, or an invalidity pension. The Minister also included other categories but in all cases the persons had to be aged 66 years or more and would have qualified for old age pensions were they not in receipt of other pensions or benefits. We immediately saw the anomaly that the carer for an adult severely handicapped person, who had not attained the age of 66 and was in need of full-time constant care and attention would not be entitled to the new carer's allowance. In the case of severely handicapped children, there is a special payment to the parents who have to look after them. We feel that their problem is being addressed at that stage but the moment they become an adult and are in receipt of benefits in their own right, even though they may still either be confined to bed or to a wheelchair or suffer from severe handicaps which preclude them from any normal life and means they are in need of constant care and attention, the persons who care for them are not entitled to any allowances. Invariably, this task falls to the mother, who is then confined to the home almost on a full-time basis to look after this special adult who has not reached the age of 66 years. We had suggested similar amendments to what the Minister now proposes, but they were ruled out of order because they involved a charge on the Exchequer and only the Government could widen the categories. I congratulate the Minister for having convinced the Government that this category should be included.

We welcome the publication of regulations and guidelines that cover this new category, so that there will be no ambiguity about who will be entitled to the new allowance. We realise that the allowance will be confined to those with severe handicaps, who are in receipt of DPMA and need full-time care and attention.

I will deal later with the concept of means testing, but I am not sure whether I should deal with it now.

We are only discussing the amendment at this stage.

I welcome the Minister's amendment and I look forward to receiving clarification on the severity of handicap of the persons in receipt of DPMA whose carer's will now qualify for this new allowance.

I know we are restricted to discussing the amendment only and I will try to restrict my comments to them. It is a pity that our amendment was ruled out of order. In it we asked the Minister to include an adult or child who is physically or mentally handicapped. The carer's allowance announced in the Bill is incredibly restrictive. It appears that one must be a pensioner and be so incapacitated as to require full-time care and attention to be eligible. That means that very few people will be eligible. I welcome the Minister's move. The whole concept is worthy of support but it is unfortunate that it is too narrowly based.

The Minister has said that only certain people in receipt of the DPMA will qualify under the new scheme. That allowance is paid to physically and mentally disabled persons and I should like to know what new procedure will operate to incorporate the DPMA beneficiaries. I expect the Minister to tell us that this matter will be covered in the regulations. They are the bone of contention as far as I am concerned. Will it go out from the House that the carers of those who are in receipt of the DPMA will be eligible under the new scheme? In my view it is wrong to give that impression. I am anxious that the right message should go from the House and we can only do that if we know the classification the Minister has in mind. However, I do not intend to look a gift horse in the mouth and I welcome the decision to give more people benefit under the new scheme. In the explanatory memorandum it is emphasised that the carer would have to reside with the person being cared for. Will the Minister elaborate on that? One newspaper report implied that one did not have to be living with the person being cared for.

Would it be helpful to take these amendments and the section together and take a separate decision on them? It is difficult to deal with all the issues involved under separate amendments.

The simple question that is before us is whether we accept the amendment or not. If we agree to the amendment we will be discussing the section with the amendment included.

However, at a later stage we will be discussing amendments which will have a bearing on the regulations. I am happy with the amendment before us.

The prescribed procedure for dealing with the amendments is as has been indicated. If we change from that the position will be chaotic.

The House will be free to discuss the section at a later stage. The simple thing is to agree to the amendment and then discuss the section, as amended.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 44 not moved.

I move amendment No. 45:

In page 13, between lines 24 and 25, to insert the following:

"or who is in receipt of a prescribed payment under section 69 of the Health Act, 1970;".

Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 46 to 54, inclusive, not moved.

I move amendment No. 55:

In page 15, line 3, to delete "may" and substitute "shall".

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 56:

In page 15, between lines 27 and 28, to insert the following:

"(d) Where it is proposed to make regulations under this Part a draft of each regulation shall be laid before each of the Houses of the Oireachtas and shall not come into effect until a motion approving of the draft has been passed by each such House.".

This amendment is in my name and those of Deputies Byrne and McCormack. It is my view that we should discuss this amendment with the section. I should like to put a marker down about the feelings Fine Gael have about what has happened under the carer's allowance. The only way we can give expression to our views is to call a vote on the amendment. Our reasons for tabling the amendment are tied up with what is happening to the carer's allowance.

We cannot adapt Standing Orders to provide for the strategy of any one party.

I accept that but the regulations will be interpreting the definitions in the Bill. They are central to the section.

We will discuss and dispose of amendment No. 56 and then discuss the section, as amended.

I am anxious that the Minister accept our amendment and that regulations made under the section be brought before the House in the form of a positive motion. While we welcome the broad structure of the section, there is a great deal of concern at the level of hype and expectation generated at the time of the announcement of the allowance. Many people will be sadly let down when they realise how limited the scheme is. I am not saying that that is the Minister's fault. The Minister can do only what is possible under the social welfare system, which is an income replacement set-up in the case of unemployment or sickness benefit. I do not think this is the best vehicle for the Government to use to introduce a carer's allowance. It will lead to many problems. Many people expect that the carer's allowance will be an additional allowance but it will not be any such thing. In most cases it will amount to a tiny additional supplement to the existing benefit.

The idea has gone out that those who were in receipt of £27 will receive £45 and those who are caring for people and qualify will receive £45. However, very few people will qualify for the £45 allowance. The Minister should identify those who will qualify. He has told us that 8,000 of the 66,000 carers will benefit. At present 2,000 people qualify. That leaves a huge number of people not included. There will be a great deal of disappointment about the scheme. The Minister must accept some of the responsibility for the way the scheme was presented.

I welcome the decision to broaden the categories of those who will be considered as carers under the scheme. It appears that there is no exclusion in the scheme. It is a major reform and on its own it would be welcome but it is wrong of people to think that they will get an additional £45. Unless they do not have any means they will not qualify. If they are living with a person who is working or in receipt of a social welfare benefit the benefit under the new scheme will be very limited. I suggested that we should consider the idea of a carer's benefit to be given to a person as a right and on the same basis as unemployment benefit or disability benefit is given if people are in benefit or give up employment for the purpose of looking after a person. This would at least extend the category substantially and would mean that persons who vacated a job voluntarily, thus leaving one available for someone else in the workforce, would be acknowledged. I further propose that the existing prescribed relative's allowance should not be removed because this is the only element in this package which is not means tested. It is now being replaced by a means tested carer's allowance. Some people who would have obtained the prescribed relative's allowance will not qualify for the new allowance. My colleague, Deputy McCormack, is particularly concerned about this because he has had experience already regarding the interpretation of the prescribed relative's allowance in terms of full-time care and attention. What does full-time care and attention mean? If you are a farmer's wife and live on a farm and you happen to feed the chickens, are you considered therefore as being precluded from giving full-time care and attention? I do not have that much experience with a prescribed relative's allowance in a rural setting but I know it has been a problem with the existing scheme. Therefore, the regulations are vital as to how flexible this scheme will be in its application to so many people.

While I welcome the principle of establishing a carer's allowance, and I commend the Minister for introducing it, I question whether this is the best vehicle by which to acknowledge that we want people to care for their handicapped, the disabled and the elderly in their own homes. It is certainly a good response in the context of the social welfare system, that is apart from the fact that it does not introduce a benefit. The restriction of the means test will lead to its application being very limited. For all those reasons many people will be disappointed. In that context I wish to record our dissatisfaction with much of the detailed proposal while welcoming the principle in general. These regulations should be positive. We should have an opportunity of discussing how the detail of the Bill will be interpreted for individuals.

I would like clarification from the Minister on what will be contained in the regulations. As I interpret section 17, Chapter 5B, 198L, which this amendment proposes to amend by way of bringing it before the House, it is a set of regulations which enables the Minister to bring in this new section. He has intimated he intends to bring it in on 1 October or before that date if he is administratively ready to do so. It also provides for the categories of people to be included in the section which sets out the existing areas which we have agreed to amend, including severely handicapped DPMA recipients. By regulation it also sets down the levels of payment but in my opinion regulations will not specify either the means testing or those who will be excluded by means testing because they are already determined in the section of the Bill which deals with means testing. This is dealt with in section 17, Chapter 5B, 1981.-(3). The Minister said last night that he does not want to be precluded from bringing in the regulations when he is ready to do so and that he will circulate the list to us in advance to indicate what is in them. I would like the Minister to clarify if the regulations will address any of the problems outlined by Deputy Flaherty or if they will address only the problems originally specified in section 17, Chapter 5B, 198L which brings the section into operation, details the people who will be included for benefit and also details the maximum amounts to be paid but will not deal with means testing or with the question of excluding some people because they do not qualify in accordance with the means testing or because they will not qualify now under the categories which all of us, including the Minister, have agreed. I have reservations about the Minister coming back to the House for approval if these are simple regulations which all of us would wish the Minister to speedily prepare and circulate and bring into being under this Bill.

I want to express my reservations on this section. In fact, I am a signatory with Deputy Flaherty and Deputy McCormack to this amendment dealing with regulations. The interpretation of the carer's allowance is quite clear. Whatever I may say about regulations as they affect other sections of the Bill, this section is a key one for considered debating, and voting on in terms of the regulations. Even as matters stand the whole question of the means test is up for debate. Means testing of any person at an income level of £2 is ridiculous. I find it hard to imagine that the Minister and his officials would sit down and insert such a ridiculously low, incredible and meaningless sum.

Previously it was £1.

The basic means anybody should be allowed to have in this regard in any shape or form should be at least £25 or £30. Because the Minister has put in such an incredibly low figure thousands of people who would otherwise be entitled to a carer's allowance will be excluded. I will not detain the House any longer on this issue. Deputy Flaherty has made up her mind on this issue also. We are not happy with these provisions.

We are dealing with the amendment. Deputies withdrew two fairly similar amendments earlier. To do as suggested would cause severe administrative difficulties and substantial delays. I have no doubt that if that amendment were to be accepted, very serious delay would be caused to the people we want to assist. The categories are defined in the Act. This amendment is seeking to extend the provisions to include the disabled person's maintenance allowance. That is going beyond what is contained in the Bill. The regulations will cover only those who failed to get in under the categories specified in the Bill; in other words it is an extra power for me to include people such as those over 80 years of age. It is not possible to define everything in an Act and be certain that everybody will be included. Because of that there is a power whereby the Minister may, through regulations, bring other people in and make other arrangements. The old age pension means test is the most favourable means test we have. I could not have got a better means test. We can see how the provision here develops, how everything shapes up, who does not fit in and where it can be expanded in time. This is a very big step from the point of view of what is in the Bill already. Deputy Flaherty is right in saying that the matter of including the DMPA is a health issue. We are taking that from the Department of Health. You either want me to do something practical or you do not but do not involve me between Departments. I have got the Government to agree to the step I am taking. It is a further big step and is in line with what Deputies want. That is the purpose of this amendment. There is an opportunity to discuss the broader issue once we have disposed of the amendments.

The amendment in relation to the DPMA has been agreed by all of us and we are not discussing it at present. We all agree with that wholeheartedly and welcome the fact that it is being done at this time by way of this mechanism.

What is at issue now is our amendment in regard to the regulations. The regulations will allow the Minister to do a number of things — for example, define "carer", "full-time care and attention", "relevant pension", etc. Those definitions will have to be spelt out. Under paragraph 198L (2) of section 17 the Minister is enabling people to bypass his means test. I am interested in hearing the reasons for this.

It is to broaden it.

The Minister said that the means test was one of the most generous but paragraph 198L (2) (a) of section 17 disregards the rate set by the Minister and refers to a weekly means of £2. Does that contradict what the Minister said about the means test for the old age pension which he said he was applying? The regulations will spell out how the Bill will impact on people. I referred to the question of full-time carers and asked if they would be subject to the regulations?

The terms "carer", "relevant pension" and "full-time care and attention" are spelt out in the Bill.

The term "full-time care and attention" is not.

The term "full-time care and attention" is set out in the Bill in so far as it refers to "a person who is so incapacitated as to require full-time care and attention". We have never had any problems with this term in the operation of the prescribed relative's allowance, which is operated by my Department on the basis of full-time care and attention. I do not believe I have ever had a query about the nature of full-time care and attention. I have had queries from people who wanted someone else included but I have not had any queries in regard to full-time care and attention. That scheme has operated satisfactorily and I am using this as the criterion here. If I did not use some criterion I could not get authority to introduce something which is totally open-ended. The criterion we have used works well and we have built it into this Bill.

The Deputy spoke about expectations. I did not mean to create any hype; I have tried to make it very clear that the scheme will have to be introduced in a controlled way. Just under 2,000 people benefited previously from the scheme and my Department officials estimate that 8,000 people will now benefit. This was the position before we brought in the DPMA, which is another question. I have to draw the line here because I have achieved a lot. I have to put the scheme into operation and I need the regulations as certain things I cannot anticipate now will arise in the future with which I want to be able to deal. No matter what Bill is brought in there will be things people cannot anticipate. Deputy Byrne is very concerned about this issue but he has literally no experience in this business. I know he is learning about it at present and is doing so very well. As Deputy Ferris knows well, we can talk all we like here about the Bill, but if flexibility is not built into it in regard to administration the Minister will be completely stuck and will not be able to operate the scheme.

I have accepted amendment No. 55. Amendment No. 56 proposes that I should come back into the House with any regulations which are made. I believe the inclusion of this amendment in the Bill at this stage would be totally unnecessary, very restrictive, an administrative nightmare and push back the implementation of the scheme. There is no question in my mind but that that would be the outcome if the amendment was accepted.

This amendment is not necessary. If the Deputies are concerned about the regulations they will have the opportunity of challenging them within 21 sitting days of the House if they believe this needs to be done. This hardly ever happens. What really happens is that the next time the scheme is being discussed the Deputies can say which people they would like to be included. They can say "We know it will cost a lot of money but these are the people we would like to see included". This sort of proposal will be considered as we go forward and see what can be done.

I do not think Deputies need to be concerned about the manner in which we are approaching this scheme or to do what is suggested in amendment No. 56. The amendment would ensure that matters would be discussed and thrashed out here, but the proposal that a draft of each regulation should be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and should not come into effect until a motion approving them had been passed by each House would be unduly restrictive. I would certainly be against such a proposal.

I do not like to disagree with my colleagues on this side of the House but I ask them to consider what we will be doing if we accept this amendment. In fairness to the Minister, the section relating to the regulations gives him certain powers, including the power to include people whom we have not yet identified. Hopefully, as a result of all our teasing out of the Bill, we will have considered everybody, but I have no doubt whatsoever that other categories which are not specifically identified in the Bill — we welcome the additional categories included by the Minister — will be identified for inclusion.

Paragraph 198L(2) (c) of section 17 gives the Minister additional powers, which we welcome. The Minister cannot make the regulations any more restrictive than already provided for in the Bill. When we have disposed of this amendment we will have an opportunity to discuss the section. I will be expressing my reservations about the type of means testing suggested by the Minister. I am glad the Minister indicated on Second Stage, in response to our reservations, that he was prepared to look at the principle of means testing so that we would not exclude people who are giving this loving care and attention but who are excluded at present under the means testing provisions in other Acts.

The Minister said he has chosen the most liberal means test. However, we know from experience that there is very little liberal adaptation of means testing. We know from the previous subsections what the Minister's intention will be and the absolute means testing he will apply. If the amendment is accepted I would be worried that we could be holding up the implementation of the carers' allowance because of the obligation which would be placed on the Minister to come back into the House to get our final approval to the regulations.

We know the contents of the regulations. We are not sure about the date, but it is the Minister's intention to implement this in October or sooner. These regulations will allow for that. If for some reason we are not satisfied with the regulations we can rescind them. I know from past experience that once regulations are published by the Government they cannot be amended. The only thing that can be done then is to send them back by a vote of the House. We know now what the Minister wants to put into these regulations and it is not unreasonable. I would ask my two colleagues to reconsider their position in view of what the Minister has said because I do not want to delay making the carer's allowance available to people who qualify for it under the regulations.

The Deputy has said that if we were to press our amendment and succeed it might hold up the Bill. The Minister has indicated he hopes it will be ready for October. I hope we will be ready to work again in October; indeed this side of the House will be pressing for a resumption in September. These ludicrously long holidays have become a feature of this House and we have to try to do our business around these. We would have had a particularly appalling example of it this month had not the Government's executive wings been clipped by the level of opposition in the House. We will not be restricted in doing what is best in relation to this by that consideration. It will be open to the Government to have new regulations ready.

I commend the Minister for having taken the initiative but there are so many elements of this that are not what we wish they were. The regulations will flesh out some of these. The Minister may not be aware of problems but my back bench colleagues have come to me with real problems relating even to the definitions under the prescribed relative's allowance and difficulties particularly in rural Ireland that people have had in proving that they are providing full-time care and attention if their activities might be interpreted some other way. For that reason I am anxious to press the amendment.

Under the prescribed relative's allowance, the wife was not covered anyway, whether she was feeding the chickens or not.

It is not necessarily the wife.

The Deputy mentioned the wife. Here we are bringing the wife in.

Amendment put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 45; Níl, 62.

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie,Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies J. Higgins and McCartan; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy.
Amendment declared lost.
Amendments Nos. 57 and 58 not moved.
Question proposed: "That section 17, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The carer's allowance section is a little like the curate's egg, good in parts. There is a huge problem with confusion, expectation and the very restrictive means test. On Second Stage I argued that its presentation as an increase from £27 to £45 was misrepresenting the case, and that is putting it as gently as I can. The number of people who would receive that kind of increase would be fewer than the current number in receipt of the prescribed relative's allowance. Other than that, they are persons with no income at all and where they are to come from I do not know. Either they have a private income or an income as a dependant of a married person who will now be included, or they have a social welfare income either as a dependant themselves or as an individual. If such persons are individual social welfare recipients the allowance will mean a net loss in income for them. If they are dependants it could mean an increase, depending on what their rate of benefit, from £16 to as low as £6. There will be more people in receipt of this benefit but the additional amounts will be a great deal smaller than the presentation of £27 to £45.

Had it been presented in that modified fashion we could have welcomed those increases, but there is a great expectation that carers are being acknowledged and the rigidity of the means test or the exclusions therefrom really have not hit home.

The categories of people who would qualify are widened and that is welcome. I would like the Minister to clarify my reading of that — that there are now no exceptions. If you are residing with somebody and providing full-time care nobody is excluded, relative or otherwise. That is a very welcome major reform.

The Minister has amended the scheme, as we asked him to do on Second Stage, to include recipients of DPMA and has broadened significantly the categories of people who qualify for care. I regret that he has not taken on the other proposal I made in my amendment that he also consider persons in receipt of other income such as occupational injuries pensions who themselves require full-time care and attention and whose incomes might be no greater, or only marginally greater, than those who are being considered at the moment. These people do exist. People have had to retire from teaching with psychiatric illness and people retire in other walks of life through various disabilities. If we are to apply this scheme comprehensively, this group should be considered also. Perhaps the power the Minister is giving himself under the regulations will allow him to meet that situation.

The single most limiting factor in this proposal is the means test. The Minister said he picked the most generous means test but, as Deputy Ferris said, there is no such thing in the social welfare system. Under our general amendment means which have stood at the same figure since 1974 should be updated. This is very relevant.

There are improvements that we welcome. It is not sufficient to acknowledge the 66,000 people who are providing whole-time care. Had the Minister taken on my proposal in relation to carer's benefit it would have included as of right at least one group not means tested. Under my proposal if the person who had a benefit entitlement similar to a unemployment benefit or if he would qualify for unemployment benefit or disability benefit and gave up his or her employment to provide full-time care, hence creating another job in the workforce, the cost to the State would be insignificant. Extension of the provision to such persons would be an acknowledgement of the value, to which we give lip service at least, of the kind of care these people are providing. If the Minister is not willing to take that on board this year he might look at it for the future.

Given that it is ruled out of order as an amendment because of the charge on the Exchequer, the question of maintaining the prescribed relative's allowance alongside the new carer's allowance is something the Minister might take on board. The prescribed relative's allowance is not means tested, I understand. Once you prove that you are providing full-time care and are not working outside the home or engaged in other employment, you can qualify for it. It will mean only a small number of additional people and it would broaden the scope of the proposals.

While we welcome the improvements we are concerned at the very limited scope, the impact of a very rigid means test and the huge level of disappointment and let down that will be felt throughout the community as the restrictive nature of the scheme as proposed becomes more broadly known to the people who have great expectations of benefiting from it.

I support Deputy Flaherty. The Minister is going on the right road in introducing the carer's allowance, but, as far as I can detect from what he has published, in the case of a husband and wife where one of the spouses has a take-home pay of £100 per week, they will get nothing under the carer's allowance because of the application of the means test. That is effectively rendering it ineffective for anyone who has even a low paid job, and it is unduly restrictive. The Minister should bear in mind that for his colleague, the Minister for Health, the weekly cost of keeping a person in an acute hospital is probably about £1,200 at this stage and even in a non-acute hospital it is probably about half that figure. The care being provided by carers keeping people out of hospital is being under-valued by the Minister.

The recent study on the 66,000 carers was startling. It showed that only 3 per cent of carers were getting the prescribed relative's allowance at that stage, which will be increased by this proposal but not substantially. Similarly, only 3 per cent were getting home help provisions under the various health boards and in the same way even basic medical requirements were only being afforded in a very patchy manner to many of the people being cared for in the home. The Minister needs to set himself a schedule over the next two or three years to radically widen the scope of this proposal. The £2 means disregard which he has introduced in this Bill is particularly niggardly. The Minister said in his public statements that the means test was going to be modelled on the non-contributory pension where the means disregard is considerably higher. Equally the means test should take account of genuine expenses being incurred in caring for people in the home. There are many expenses such as heating, lighting and care of different sorts and people have to get relief from the day to day caring, even if it is someone coming in to sit with the person. These expenses should be consolidated in some fashion and brought into the means test. The Minister needs to look carefully at that area. He was very niggardly in confining his change in the electricity allowance to persons over 80——

It is all money and every step costs millions.

I am making the point that the Minister should have a plan over a three or four year period to tackle the needs of carers as outlined in the special report. This is a welcome small first step but the hype surrounding it leads people to believe that a genuine response to their requirements has been made in this Bill. Even if the Minister does not intend to implement the welcome alternative proposals made by this side of the House, he should have a three or four year radical programme in this area.

The categories which will be included as carers have been identified in the Bill. I want to discuss how some carers will be excluded. We recognise that in the past married women were excluded, particularly if they were related to the person being cared for. From that point of view this is a major step forward in that it does not automatically exclude married people. However, the problem with means testing is that under the 1978 Act wives are allocated 50 per cent of their husbands' income — regardless of whether they receive it — and if a husband is earning £90 per week his spouse, if she is caring for someone in this category, will be excluded because she will be termed as having £40 per week. That is the stark reality of means testing.

The Minister gave some hope in his Second Stage speech that he would adopt a more liberal approach in regard to the means test. He can now implement the regulations which give him the power to extend the categories in relation to means testing. If he did that it would mean that thousands of married women throughout the country who provide this useful and loving service would not be penalised.

I said on Second Stage that these carers save the State a colossal amount of money each year and Deputy Bruton also referred to this in relation to acute hospitals. The same applies to geriatric hospitals, welfare homes and sheltered housing. I know that the Minister has to allocate within his own budget, but the Government should appreciate what this would mean in regard to savings in the Department of Social Welfare, hospital services and the cash strapped health boards.

The prescribed relative's allowance is extremely restrictive. Deputy Flaherty felt that it was not means tested, but it might as well be because a person is expected to be at home on a full-time basis and not to have any outside occupation. You are excluded from receiving the allowance if you are related to the person being cared for, which meant that only 2,000 people qualified for this allowance in the past. Because the Minister included married women he thinks that the figure will rise to 8,000 beneficiaries. However, I respectfully submit to the Minister that that is a very optimistic figure. I cannot see this happening because married women will be means tested. The only married women who might benefit are the spouses of social welfare recipients because they would qualify in their own right for the carer's allowance, which exceeds the adult dependant allowance. Indeed, this allowance has suffered in social welfare terms anyway.

New legislation from the EC precludes recipients from claiming for one another as dependants because it would mean they would be in receipt of two social welfare payments. If that clause is applied here many people will be excluded from benefit.

Chapter 5B, 198K. requires that a prescribed relative's allowance shall cease to be paid to a relevant pensioner or prescribed relative. I am not unduly worried about it not extending to the new categories where it is paid directly to the carer, not the pensioner; but if I am reading this correctly it will cease to be paid to the pensioner and all hell will break loose in rural areas. Old age pensioners look on this element of their pension as belonging to them although it is being paid because someone is looking after them. We know from dealing with prescribed relatives that they have little or no income, they depend on the pensioner to give them back some of the carer's allowance. However, some very old people do not pay this money to the carer because they regard it as theirs. It does not occur to them that they are in receipt of it because someone is looking after them. Some old age pensioners with an existing prescribed relative's allowance included in their pension will suddenly suffer a drop in income and this will cause problems.

Only if they are in receipt of the carer's allowance. That is just to cover them so that they do not have it both ways.

I know, and that is what worries me. I have a feeling that there will be unhappiness about this matter and they will blame the Minister for removing it from them. They certainly will not give him any credit for paying more to the person looking after them.

I share my colleague's views that there is an expectation by all married women looking after people in the home that they will get this allowance. The concept of means testing has not entered their mind yet because they have never been subjected to it except by the Revenue Commissioners. When they discover the nitty-gritty of the Bill they will find that many married carers will be excluded because of means testing. For that reason I had hoped the Minister would spell out the position today, but perhaps the Department of Finance have precluded him from giving even his own thoughts. We had hoped this concept of means testing would be a lot more liberal than it is. The figures are so ridiculous that one could not even get the price of a packet of cigarettes from one's deserting husband without being excluded from getting carer's allowance.

We are anxious that as many people as possible would benefit because they are providing a service for which the State would otherwise have to pay sub-acute, geriatric and welfare homes. It would be a recognition of the invaluable work these people have done down through the years with no compensation. They often felt at a disadvantage as a result of not being compensated — not that they felt they should be paid to look after their own relatives but some of them made tremendous efforts in their homes to look after old people day and night, with no thanks from the State and often relatively little thanks from the person for whom they cared. These people can be quite independent and demanding, especially as they get older, and it can be frustrating for them to have to depend on somebody to do everything for them. It can be very difficult to care for these people, particularly if they are incontinent. In my constituency there are carers looking after such people without receiving a penny. We are initiating a very restrictive regime here in regard to means testing. Many people will feel they would have qualified for the allowance were it not for the Minister's announcement that married women are no longer excluded from the means test.

We should highlight who will be eligible for the carer's allowance. Firstly, I would like to say that the carer's allowance is a progressive move, but it is extremely restrictive. It is geared to cater for the needs of pensioners in full-time care and attention. In the main, we are talking about the elderly. A huge number of people will be deprived of this allowance by virtue of the fact that they are ineligible under this Bill. There is a large number of people outside the old age pension category who are in need of full-time care and attention and are getting it from family members, neighbours or relations. Although the Minister has spoken about the DPMA, we have still not been told who will be eligible for this allowance.

Many people have to make incredible decisions as regards an ailing spouse who has not reached old age pension age but is still relatively young and through accident or illness, either physical or mental, requires a lot of care from a family member. There are lonely people with no family connections who are also being cared for by a very supportive community. People in the community give, in a voluntary capacity, great time and care to such people, but they will not benefit from this allowance. Quite a large number of people will on foot of their experience as a carer expect this £45 but will find, having gone through the interpretation clauses, that they are not eligible and they will be very disappointed.

The Minister said there are 2,000 people in receipt of prescribed relative's allowance and that after the enactment of this Bill there will be 8,000 beneficiaries. What does that mean in relation to the total number of people who are at present engaged in a caring capacity, even for those at a pensionable age? Is it a way of quantifying how much care and attention is being given in this country at present? I suggest the number is vastly greater than 8,000.

It is 66,000.

Eight times 8,000.

If that number is correct and only 8,000 will be eligible, it reinforces my point that there are many people being cared for by people who will not benefit. They will not benefit in the main because the people they are caring for are not sufficiently aged. Where does one draw the line between full-time and part-time care and attention? I am sure many a heart-broken applicant will have it defined for them by a social welfare official. What they believe to be full-time care will be alleged not to be so and they will be excluded.

I would like to refer to the question of the means test. On the one hand we are congratulating the Minister for bringing in a carer's allowance and on the other hand we are pointing out its inadequacies. The means test will deprive a large number of people of this allowance and it is very inadequate in that sense. There are three competing factors at play and they will exclude huge numbers of people who should otherwise be eligible. What is wrong with making somebody eligible who has not reached the age for old age pension? There are many younger people who, as I said earlier, through accidents or physical or mental illness are in receipt of full-time care. Why should they be excluded? In many cases these people may be receiving care far in excess of that——

Many of them are included if they are on invalidity pension. They are included under the DPMA if they are in need of full-time care and attention.

It is the full-time care and attention clause that is in question. I would not wish anyone in receipt of DPMA to think after today's debate that they will automatically qualify for carer's allowance. That is why I have reservations in this regard. People caring for pensioners think they will get a carer's allowance but because we have added a new dimension relating to the DPMA, they will——

I must remind the House that it is now 1.30 p.m. and in accordance with an order made this morning the House shall be suspended until 2.30 p.m.

Sitting suspended at 1.30 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.
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