Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jun 1990

Vol. 399 No. 8

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dyslexia Problem.

Bernard J. Durkan

Question:

8 Mr. Durkan asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Michael Lowry

Question:

10 Mr. Lowry asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Peter Barry

Question:

11 Mr. Barry asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Michael Joe Cosgrave

Question:

20 Mr. Cosgrave asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Michael Creed

Question:

23 Mr. Creed asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

William Cotter

Question:

29 Mr. Cotter asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Austin Currie

Question:

39 Mr. Currie asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

John V. Farrelly

Question:

46 Mr. Farrelly asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Nuala Fennell

Question:

47 Mrs. Fennell asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Tom Enright

Question:

69 Mr. Enright asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Brendan McGahon

Question:

77 Mr. McGahon asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Frank Crowley

Question:

78 Mr. Crowley asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Joseph Doyle

Question:

90 Mr. Doyle asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Michael D'Arcy

Question:

93 Mr. D'Arcy asked the Minister for Education if she will make a statement regarding the problem of dyslexia having particular regard to (1) the arrangements which are made to allow children who suffer from dyslexia to be examined in certificate examinations by methods which overcome difficulties created by this disease (2) making special arrangements with secondary schools, operating entrance tests, to ensure that children may function below capacity as a result of dyslexia rather than intellectual ability (3) the giving of financial assistance to families to help them with the extra costs involved in arranging for children to attend special classes operated by the Irish Dyslexia Association (4) resources for the Irish Dyslexia Association to enable them to increase the number of classes and (5) the in-service training of national school teachers in the recognition and treatment of the problem of dyslexia.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I propose to take Questions Nos. 8, 10, 11, 20, 23, 29, 39, 46, 47, 69, 77, 78, 90 and 93 together.

Remedial education in ordinary national schools will continue to be the principal method by which my Department will cater for the needs of children with reading disabilities. Apart from the special cadre of remedial teachers at primary level, all primary teachers are trained to deal with a variety of reading problems including those which are accompanied by perceived difficulties. Extra posts have been sanctioned along with a psychological service.

My Department grant special consideration at the certificate examinations to candidates who suffer from the condition of dyslexia provided they are satisfied that the special consideration is warranted and the application, together with supporting up-to-date educational psychologist's report, is submitted.

My Department have no function in relation to entrance tests for secondary schools. The selection of pupils for admission and the criteria used for this purpose are decided by the school authorities in each case. I have stated previously that I would deprecate the use of such tests for the purpose of selecting only pupils of higher ability.

I regret that there are no funds at the disposal of my Department for the purposes set out in parts (3) and (4) of the Deputy's question.

Mr. J. Bruton

What about part (5)?

Mrs. O'Rourke

Last year we issued very extensive guidelines on remedial education and special in-service courses are organised right throughout the year for teachers on the general aspects of remedial education.

Mr. J. Bruton

Would the Minister agree that the special arrangements made for students suffering from dyslexia in certificate examinations consist simply of their scripts being examined by a special examiner? For example, they are not given extra time to read the scripts, if in fact the reading of scripts is a slower process for them than for others. Would the Minister therefore agree that there should be a modification of the procedure in that regard? Would the Minister further agree, in regard to the second part of the question, while accepting that she does not operate these entrance examinations, that she should at least concern herself with the matter sufficiently so that she can make representations to those who operate entrance tests, many of whom are within the so-called free education scheme, to ensure that if they do operate them they take dyslexia sufficiently into account? Would the Minister further state if she is aware that the courses run by the Irish Dyslexia Association for children who have been identified as in need of special care and special remedial education in this regard are so full that they can take no new entrants and that such children remain on in schools frequently causing disruption to other pupils and great hardship to themselves? Will she consider at least——

An Ceann Comhairle

The questions are over long.

Mr. J. Bruton

——looking for some form of aid, some sum of money for the dyslexia association for this purpose?

Mrs. O'Rourke

The first question the Deputy asked was about the system of marking the examination papers of children with dyslexia. In 1986, Paddy Cooney, MEP, then Minister for Education, brought forward a very controversial proposal that pupils who had been thus assessed by examiners would bear forever the mark because they were to have their leaving certificate papers stamped specially saying, "This child has got special consideration". When I read this question yesterday that came vividly back to me. It took concerted Dáil action on my part and that of many other Deputies to bring about a change in what was going to be a very penal stipulation for the child. I do not intend to bring it in. The proposal is still there and I have set my face——

Mr. J. Bruton

That was not what I asked. The Minister is storing up this little load of grievances.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Not at all. Paddy Cooney and I are great buddies.

Mr. J. Bruton

Why is she introducing irrevelancies?

An Ceann Comhairle

We shall deal with questions in an orderly fashion, Deputy Bruton and Minister.

Mr. J. Bruton

The Minister is bringing in gratuitous material in respect of people who are not here to defend themselves——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to restrain himself and put the questions in an orderly fashion.

Mrs. O'Rourke

The Deputy was a member of a Government who allowed this to proceed until we stopped it. That is its relevance. Mr. Cooney is safely in Europe but the Deputy is right across the floor from me and he was there in 1986 when this was going on.

Mr. J. Bruton

Answer the question.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I am answering the question and I am saying I stopped that heinous thing which was about to develop. Second, the examiner is told what the child's disability is — we are dealing here with dyslexia — and that examiner tackles the marking of that paper in the light of that knowledge and tailors the marks in the light of the educational psychologist's report which has been presented to the Department and thence to the examiner. That is that part.

The next question was about selection entries. Of course we seek to exhort schools to be very fair to these children. Schools have a social mission, apart from the fee paying ones that do not often operate it. The social mission of schools is very clear with regard to whom they take in in their cohort of pupils. It is very wrong to suggest that schools will refuse to take a child with dyslexia, which is what Deputy Bruton is saying. Schools would not do that.

Thirdly, he asked me if I would give money directly to the dyslexia association. At present I have no plans to do that, but I can tell the House that recently I arranged a meeting between officials in the Department of Education and officials in the Department of Health with some people from the dyslexia association to tease out the matter. There are two schools of thought on it. There are those who say dyslexic children can be catered for within the remedial system and those who say dyslexia is unique in itself and the requirements therefore differ from what might be termed ordinary remedial needs. I am anxious to have that fleshed out and to find the full facts. I have met with people from the dyslexia association; I have extreme sympathy with their case and I want to tackle it but I want to go about it in the correct way.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Durkan is offering with a question tabled, and Deputy Cotter.

Mr. Durkan

Will the Minister confirm that she has received a submission from the dyslexia association and therein are outlined certain salient points which that association regard as necessary to assist those so afflicted at present? Can she indicate what those salient points are and how she intends to deal with those items in the foreseeable future?

Mrs. O'Rourke

My Department have received submissions and, as I said, I have met with some people belonging to the association and talked frankly with them. I have not got the submission with me, therefore I cannot read it out or comment on the points. I intend to meet again with the executive body of the dyslexia association and to discuss the matter thoroughly with them. I am not satisfied that putting it in under the general heading of "remedial" is the best way of dealing with dyslexia. Dyslexics have particular needs and those needs would fall to be addressed very precisely. I want further investigations and further discussions about the matter, in which I have a personal interest.

Mr. Cotter

Would the Minister agree that the dyslexic student should have the greatest latitude possible when dealing with choice of subjects, particularly at senior post-primary level and at junior post-primary level? The regulations laid down for payment of capitation, etc., and for a student to qualify to be called a junior student in a secondary school, for example, could not or should not be enforced in the case of a dyslexic student because of the difficulties such students have. I am thinking of Irish at senior cycle. In order for a school to get payment for a student the student would have to study Irish. In the case of dyslexic students that is quite difficult. They tend to have difficulty with languages and the imposition of an extra language might just make it impossible for a student to follow a course satisfactorily. I have come across this. Would it be possible for the regulations to be relaxed so that dyslexic students could have a free choice of subjects and could choose subjects they would be better able to deal with rather than having to take certain subjects because of the regulations?

Mrs. O'Rourke

The Deputy has put forward a fair point, obviously from his professional knowledge. However, take that in its wider context of the definition of "dyslexic". We must sort that out first. If we were to take it without a clear definition or recognition of "dyslexic" as a separate thing we would be widening the breach, so to speak, for many others, obviously worthy too, to be considered for capitation grants and the Irish language. I take the point that children who are perceived as dyslexic have great difficulty with language. It is as much as they can do to cope with the spoken language, never mind writing it. What the Deputy said is intersting and I will discuss it when I meet with the dyslexia association executive. It has implications for many other students also but I take it in the spirit in which it is put forward.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Will the Minister agree that the problems being discussed here in this question arise from the fact that many of these children can get through primary school for a long time before being detected and primary teachers are not in a position to help them because of overcrowded classrooms? My Question No. 82 deals with remedial teachers and I am sure we will reach it, the way we are going. It might be very important because these children going through primary school have to sit entrance examinations which are not supposed to be there and when they go on to secondary they are at a disadvantage. No allowance is made for them. They have to take their place in society. Whether you brand them or not by doing anything else, they should get a fair crack of the whip. It goes back to primary school——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point effectively.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I accept that the place for early recognition of disability of any kind and of remedial need is the primary school and the need for remedial teachers and for more teachers in general is clearly recognised. Most schools operate second level entrance tests for the purpose of sorting out pupils rather than with a view to not taking them in. In that process the dyslexic child would be wrongly done by. They often get through primary school without being recognised. Children are adept at not letting it show, which is very sad. I hope I will return to the House on this matter when I have met the association.