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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Jun 1990

Vol. 399 No. 8

Broadcasting Bill, 1990: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

This debate gives us an opportunity to hear the views of the Opposition on the thorny question of broadcasting. The first thing that must be accepted, irrespective of the comments of the Opposition, is that the Government bit the bullet as far as the broadcasting issue is concerned and forged a policy on broadcasting which the Coalition were unable to do for four years. The fundamental question at issue is whether Dáil Éireann, and the country, want an alternative system of broadcasting or a multiplicity of choice in broadcasting and whether we want an alternative in the area of news and current affairs. Generally speaking, there was a consensus for that approach when the original Bill was introduced in 1988. People indicated that they wanted a multiplicity of choice in broadcasting. The support for the pirate stations was a manifestation of a desire by the people for an alternative to RTE. One could argue that it was the pirate stations that forced RTE to become more competitive in their programming and more responsive to the needs of their audience and, in particular, to the young audience. It was because of the unacceptability of the pirate stations that a new broadcasting policy emerged. It sought to give the people what they wanted.

It is a fundamental cornerstone of democracy that we give people choice and that we do not have a monopoly in the dissemination of news and in the preparation of current affairs programmes. Much has been achieved in that respect following the acceptance of our new broadcasting policy. An objective person examining the competitive environment in which the new independent stations are operating must come to the conclusion that the situation is not equitable. It is extremely difficult for the independent stations to compete realistically with RTE, given the dual funding arrangements for that station. RTE enjoy an inbuilt advantage in that they receive the proceeds from the licence fee which amounts to more than £45 million per annum and, in addition, earn substantial revenue from advertising. It was because of those inbuilt strengths that they were in a position to almost kill off the new independent national station and many of the local stations. I accept that in the marketplace the strong players endeavour to kill off new competitors but the difficulty here was that the position was not fair. RTE were using their income from the licence fees to kill off their competitors.

There is considerable independent academic evidence to sustain the view that RTE were using their licence fee revenue to subsidise their advertising rates and were selling advertisements at below the appropriate rate, thereby making it difficult for the new stations to survive. The Government are faced with the difficulty that they must permit the policy of having an alternative system survive and they must allow RTE to grow. They must either take money from the licence fee revenue and divert it to the Independent Radio and Television Commission or put a cap on RTE advertising. In the debate so far, the Opposition have failed to come to grips with that dilemma. We have had a paucity of realistic proposals to deal with that dilemma. We must maintain an independent alternative system and to do that we must put a proper financial structure in place.

Deputy Mitchell suggested that the Government should make a once-off payment to Century Radio and that to me indicates that Fine Gael do not have a problem in principle with diverting licence fee revenue, or public money, to the private sector. However, a once-off payment would not deal with structural difficulties. Those difficulties are likely to recur and it is important that the Minister should put in place a financial structure that will enable the independent stations to survive over the next five to ten years. There is little point in making a once-off payment this year and having to consider making a payment next year or in three years' time. The Fine Gael proposal is not realistic.

We must create an environment that will allow the independent stations to survive. Members will be aware that Century Radio experienced difficulties with the transmission facility at the outset. One could argue for the establishment of an independent body to govern transmission facilities for radio and television. It seems absurd that one's competitor is charged with the responsibility of giving a rival the facility to transmit its signal. Initially Century Radio reached 60 per cent of their target audience and that must have reduced their capacity to generate advertising revenue. It is important that TV3 do not experience the same problems in relation to their system. At their launch they should be able to reach 90 per cent to 100 per cent of their target audience.

The Dáil imposed upon Century Radio and other stations, a 20 per cent public service obligation. That cost a considerable amount of money and it impeded the station's ability to survive and become profitable. We should remember that 2FM did not have to comply with that obligation and, as a result, enjoy a considerable advantage over the independent stations. It must be acknowledged that the Government's policy in many other areas has been very successful. The growth of local independent stations has met with considerable approval by the public and we should not lose sight of that. I accept that we may have some casualties but, by and large, local people welcome the choice. In rural Ireland many young people have been afforded an opportunity to enter an industry from which hitherto they were precluded. Very few people in rural Ireland had an opportunity to gain the technical skills necessary for broadcasting. They can gain experience and employment in broadcasting and as a result we will have a pool of skilled personnel available for the broadcasting sector in future years. The Government are determined that the broadcasting and audio-visual industry should grow. That is one of the hidden benefits of the Government's policy.

We should remember that more than 600 jobs, full-time and part-time, have been created in broadcasting. That should be borne in mind when we are considering how we should help the independent stations survive. The State introducing measures to help ailing industries survive is not new and when that is related to the broadcasting industry it has some merit. The Opposition have concentrated on knocking the Minister's approach. In doing so they have attacked many of the people involved. Many unacceptable terms were used about some of the personalities involved. The Labour Leader, Deputy Spring, went overboard when he referred to political cronyism, political cronies and so on. We all know the people involved and I do not think they could be described as political cronies. It is reprehensible to term them as such. Many of the people involved have been of great benefit to the country. The efforts of one man in the city of Cork have been beneficial because of his energy and entrepreneurial skill.

He collected £7 million before Christmas for a concert which will not take place until next July. That is the kind of contribution he made to our young people.

With all due respect, Deputy O'Sullivan, the young people of Cork and elsewhere were delighted that Michael Jackson came to Páirc Uí Chaoimh.

This exhibition of Cork friendliness is contrary to the normal requirement of debate.

I am sure Deputy O'Sullivan will deal with those matters later on without interrupting Deputy Martin now.

These people have made a very positive contribution. A great amount of revenue has been generated; for example, the creation of Siamsa Cois Laoi has had a wonderful impact on Cork city in relation to tourism and its festival image. It is very easy to bandy terms but it is unfair to the individuals concerned.

Opposition Members referred to political associates of the Government. They seem to imply that having a political opinion is almost a crime and that such a person involved in business or industry should not apply for a licence to do anything. Our attitude in that regard is very immature and is not shared in Europe where there is a far more mature approach to such matters. There should be open, competitive tenders and we must ensure that the structures created for awarding a licence or franchise are fair, equitable and open to public scruitiny. That is important and in this respect such structures have been enshrined in the legislation. It is unfair to bring personalities into the argument.

This Bill — and the previous one — have not been a licence to print money. It is important to say that because Deputy Spring's remarks in that respect were regrettable, especially as he did not advance an alternative course of action. The Labour Party produced a fuzzy document regarding community television and although Deputy Spring poured scorn on the Government in relation to arranging amendments he could learn a lot from them because they have done more in this regard than the Government of which he was a member did in four years. We could easily have left these issues on the back-burner by saying that they were awkward, difficult to deal with and politically sensitive, but we grasped the nettle and efforts are being made to ensure that this policy works. We are trying to forge and develop an alternative system of broadcasting. The Irish Times put it very clearly last week when they said that the Opposition are in a very poor position to criticise because during their term in office they failed to come to terms with the issue.

The Government have had an electoral mandate for their policies because they went before the people with the policy of providing multiplicity of choice, which was endorsed by the electorate. As a result, the Government have a responsibility to ensure that the policy is implemented in the most effective manner possible. That is why this Bill was introduced by the Minister. I am sure that if an opinion poll was taken asking whether people would like a choice, their clear, unequivocal answer would be that they would. We are arguing about how to provide that choice and how to put structures in place which will remain there over the next decade.

There is no need to set up another review body because the independent commission discharged their functions effectively. Another review body would, in many ways, duplicate the work of the existing commission and is not worth pursuing. The new RTE Authority were pilloried, which seems incredible, as the appointed individuals are honourable and strong-minded. Indeed, some of them have openly criticised the Minister and it is a measure of his impartiality that he appointed people who have publicly disagreed with him and who attacked him and the Government. These people have their own reputations to think about, they are conscious that they are in the public eye and I am sure they will discharge their duties in an honourable and effective manner. It is regrettable that Opposition Members attacked them. Indeed, in many respects, it was also hypocritical.

We are trying to create a legal environment in which an alternative radio and TV station are put in place. I hope that the new television channel will not experience the same difficulties which the major radio station faced. It is important that this policy succeeds and I wish the Government well in their endeavours.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Cé go raibh díospóireacht againn cúpla lá ó shin ar an tairiscint a mhol Fine Gael faoi chraolachán, táimid ar ais inniu chun an fhadhb a phlé arís. Ach tá cúis faoi leith againn inniu, mar tá moladh ann go bhfaigheadh lucht gnó príobháideach airgead ón ceadúnas raidio-teilifís, cé go bhfuil athrú ar an moladh. Bhí an moladh sin chomh hait agus chomh hamaideach gur tháinig an tAire isteach ar maidin le Bille nua beagnach: gan Cuid 2 agus 3, agus sin iad na príomhfhadhbanna a bhí san Bhille ar fad.

Níor chreid mé go mbeadh an pobal chomh dian-dícheallach in aghaidh aistriú airgid ar bith go dtí lucht gnó príobháideach atá ann chun brabús a dhéanamh, agus sin é an fáth go bhfuair siad an ceadúnas i dtosach, chun brabús a dhéanamh. Níl mé ag caint faoi na local radios ar fud na tíre atá beag ó gach taobh de, ach faoi Century, atá ar fud na tíre. Chuala mé a lán gealltanas go minic ón Aire Stáit, an Teachta Gallagher, agus é ag labhairt anseo mar gheall ar bhunú teilifís Ghaeilge nó teilifís na Gaeltachta, ach níl a fhios agam cad a tharlóidh anois. Bheadh sé ciallmhar agus tá sé riachtanach airgead a thabhairt don córas nua teilifíse seo, mar de réir na bhfigiúirí a tugadh dúinn cheana, bheadh sé an-chostasach an córas a bhunú, gan trácht ar leanúint ar aghaidh leis an teilifís. Tá a lán daoine ar fud na tíre a bheadh lán sásta tacaíocht a thabhairt don córas nua chun an Ghaeilge a chur ar aghaidh, ach de réir dealraimh ní bheidh an teilifís Ghaeilge ag craoladh go fada an lá.

Níl a fhios agam cad a tharlóidh mar níl airgead go leor ag RTÉ os rud é go mbeidh an t-ioncam ag dul i laghad de bharr an gearradh siar ó 10 faoin gcéad go dtí 7½ faoin gcéad san am craolta i gcóir fógraíochta. Níl a fhios agam cad as a thiocfaidh an t-airgead chun an teilifís nua a bhunú, ach tá súil agam go mbeidh airgead ag Teilifís Éireann chun an obair seo a chur i gcrích, mar tá sé rí-thábhachtach go mbeadh an córas sin ann.

I can forgive Deputy Martin — who is no longer present. Like myself, he is an innocent recruit to politics. Nonetheless, I cannot understand how he can think that Fine Gael are taking any particular line on this since the main part of this Bill — which dealt with the transference of licence revenue to a private company — or the two sections making such provision, have been withdrawn. In a sense it leaves the Bill like Hamlet without the Prince or a coffin without a corpse. The whole controversy about its provisions — what they would do to change the overall broadcasting system here — has been changed and, rightly so, from the point of view of providing money for a national broadcasting station.

In his introductory remarks this morning the Minister had this to say:

First of all I have to say that, with some few exceptions, much of the reaction to our proposals has bordered on the hysterical. Most of it has also been quite superficial with no real attempt to analyse the policy objectives I set out last week or the measures we have proposed to meet those objectives. My hope, therefore, is that we could have a reasoned coherent debate and not just a political point-scoring exercise from the benches opposite in which the Deputies seek to be all things to all men — although experience has thought me not to be sanguine about the prospects of having such a debate.

Unlike Deputy Martin I know the Minister has been in politics a long time, having been on this side of the House for perhaps five years——

A couple of times, backwards and forwards.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Certainly the Minister was here at a time when his party were grossly irresponsible in their attitude to expenditure. Surely the Minister, in expecting that the Opposition would accept that part of the present Bill, is being somewhat innocent because I can assure him there is no way Fine Gael could accept what was proposed.

I have been amazed at the number of people who have been absolutely indignant at the idea of the revenue from their licence fees going to people out to make a profit; they have revolted at that whole concept. I would have a lot of sympathy with local radio stations. To a certain extent they are like CIE — they render a service in places where there may not be much profit to be gained. For example, if a radio station is confined to perhaps one or two counties their opportunity for gaining advertising and its attendant revenue may be limited. It must also be borne in mind that the establishment of a transmitting station in order to fulfil the requirement of a 20 per cent news content will be very high. My experience tells me that they have made an excellent start in that respect. I have much sympathy with them.

I am not talking about individuals in charge of the national radio station; they are entitled to make money if they are able. They became involved in this commercial business, competed with others — I cannot say whether the Minister is to be blamed for pushing them into taking decisions — they are shrewd business people; I do not want to see them in financial difficulties but it is strictly a business concern and they must stand on their own two feet. The argument advanced so frequently that they could not be rescued by an injection of public money has had an effect in that the main part of the Bill has been omitted.

I do not know precisely what is the position of local radio stations at present because of certain sections having been omitted from the Bill. I would have no trouble in supporting them because I know, from personal experience, they provide a tremendous news service, local news with which a national radio station cannot compete; for example, they will even announce flooding in certain areas or that there has been a car accident at a certain junction. This is the type of information local radio stations provide, apart from their coverage of main items of interest within their areas, and generating discussions at local level of great interest to their listeners.

The Minister has left it to the Independent Radio and Television Commission to deal with 2FM. I have been amazed at the number of young people who regard 2FM as their station, who listen regularly to the music they want to hear. I may not be a fan of RTE and I may not often listen to what they broadcast, but I have come to the conclusion that many of our young people do. I know that one 12 year old felt very indignant that his music was being taken from his station. While one could not provide a radio station for every 12 year old, 2FM had built up an enormous listenership and had a ready-made market for advertising.

Whether or not the Minister's new authority or commission will be able to implement it, it is grossly unfair that a station that has built up a listenership and, as a result, gained a lot of advertising revenue should be told: you must start a totally new line. Suppose a supermarket that had built up a good name was ordered to start selling, say, stockings or icecream in the morning, to hand over their business to somebody else, that too would be grossly unfair.

Since 2FM have managed to build up this listenership I do not see why they should be asked to hand it over to any commercial station, which is there to make profit, because obviously 2FM would suffer. Whether their profit be £250,000, £1 million or whatever, obviously they will lose. While I would be in favour of having additional Irish programmes on 2FM, or other language programmes, I can see their difficulty. Because they are a commercial business, they must compete and will not have a listenership and or advertising if they do not cater for their listeners. Sometimes, judging by what one hears on 2FM, it might be no harm if they adhered to certain standards.

I have always had a feeling that RTE have mis-used their monopoly when it comes to the RTE Guide. As a licence payer, I cannot understand why I should have to purchase the RTE Guide if I want to enter for a competition being sponsored by RTE radio or television. For example, I could understand it if some car firm was sponsoring a prize and insisted that I write my entry on the windscreen of a car or something of that nature to demonstrate that I was buying their goods, but if RTE are giving a prize — whether by way of 100 questions or anything else — I do not see why I should not be entitled to submit my entry on a piece of plain paper. If I must buy the RTE Guide it means I must pay its price, whatever that be, in order to support a station I already support by purchasing a licence. Perhaps the Minister would consider whether I should be forced to spend more money if I want to enter such a competition. It is a minor detail only — and I must admit that I do not ever expend the extra money — but the principle has been of concern to me for a long time.

The section dealing with advertising — which will ental a cutback on advertising on RTE's services from 10 per cent to 7.5 per cent — leaves open to all kinds of interpretations what may happen, whether such revenue will go to foreign stations, ITV or whoever. It would be a pity were that to happen. There is also the potential danger that RTE might increase their licence fee. Our spokesman, Deputy Jim Mitchell, has already said that the RTE licence fee is dearer than that of Ulster Television, the BBC or the other satellite stations. But if there is a drop in advertising revenue certainly RTE will be running at a loss.

With regard to the provision of £12 million for other media, it is fine if it goes to the local stations or to the local newspapers, many of whom are in difficulty because of their small circulation and high costs. That would be welcome. However, if the advertising goes abroad to outside television stations, we will be on a loser.

I know that on Second Stage we are not supposed to speak on the Bill section by section, however, I am glad to see that section 8 which deals with complaints, makes provision to rectify an attack on the dignity, honour or reputation of an individual. The Broadcasting Complaints Commission have been enabled to consider complaints and where their findings favour the complainant the correction of the inaccurate information must be made at a time and in a manner corresponding to that in which the offending broadcast took place. This is a very important part of the Bill as it is very easy for commentators to pass glib or deliberate remarks about somebody. Usually they get away with it because the public do not feel like causing too much hassle. However, we will be dealing with this later on.

I have certain worries about section 10. The idea that one was innocent until proven guilty appears to have been stood on its head and it appears that one is guilty until one can prove one's innocence. I hope my interpretation of this section is wrong but we will deal with this matter in greater detail at a later stage.

I wish to comment on a remark made by a previous speaker that we did not appear to appreciate the achievements of this Coalition Government who have a mandate to run the country. I think this is such a U-turn that it is almost a roundabout. If everything had been right, the Minister would not have withdrawn it. It was a dreadful mistake to include this section in the Bill and the Minister had no choice but to withdraw it. I do not think Members on the Coalition side should be talking about having a mandate to do anything because one cannot spend the people's money like the Minister intended to do.

As there are no other Members offering I would like to thank all the Members who have contributed to this debate. I would like, in particular, to refute many of the personal accusations made in regard to the particular involvement of the debate. I have taken careful note of what has been said by the various Members and I will reply to them on Committee Stage when we come to deal with it.

I must now put the question. We have before us an amendment from The Workers' Party. The amendment is:

That Dáil Éireann, believing that the main provisions of the Broadcasting Bill, 1990, including the proposals to divert licence revenue to privately owned radio and television stations and to restrict RTE's right to earn advertising revenue will seriously undermine RTE's public service broadcasting role and represent an unacceptable misuse of public funds, declines to give a Second Reading of the Bill.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the question."

On a point of order, before you put the vote, I suggest that this is not an entirely appropriate way to deal with the business before this House. We are dealing with a serious piece of legislation. A Member of the House who was due to speak was absent for a minute or two and this was unfairly taken advantage of by the Minister, who instructed one of his own backbenchers not to speak so that this debate could be collapsed.

This is a democratic Parliament.

It is important that we now allow this debate to continue. There are dozens of people in the House who want to contribute to it. This is entirely sleight of hand politics whereby the Minister has attempted to collapse the debate.

I have heard the point of order, Deputy.

On a point of order, I wish to make my views known because what is about to happen is, I believe, unprecedented in this House.

Within the last number of hours the Whips of this House agreed that this Bill would be continued next week on three separate occasions: on Tuesday evening for two hours, all day Thursday and all day Friday. In relation to what the Minister has attempted to do by a sleight of hand in regard to parliamentary procedure, Deputy Callely of Fianna Fáil had indicated to our next speaker, Deputy Higgins, that he was going to take 20 minutes of Dáil time. Deputy Higgins left the Chamber to make a phone call to indicate to his wife that he would not be home this evening because this business was continuing, the Minister——

(Interruptions.)

I have allowed Deputy Spring to raise a point of order but he proceeds to embark upon a speech and that is not good enough.

I wish to conclude by saying that in view of Deputy Callely's indication that he was going to use Fianna Fáil time to speak — 20 minutes later the rota would revert to the Labour Party — this is a total abuse of parliamentary procedure and should not be allowed. I am requesting an emergency meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges so that this Bill will be allowed continue.

(Interruptions.)

Order, please. The Chair understands that the debate collapsed and this is not an unusual procedure.

On a point of order——

I shall not continue with spurious points of order, Deputy Higgins. I will allow you to ask a final question.

There should be respect for the Chair.

Respect for the House.

I think it is agreed on all-sides of the House that this is an important piece of legislation and I think it is accepted between the Whips that there was an arrangement for dealing with it. Would it not be agreed that, in consultation with you, Sir, in the Chair and the Leas-Cheann Comhairle, frequently during the day — I have been here all day — a rota of speakers was agreed? Would you not agree, Sir, that the orderly handling of this legislation would be to have a proper Second Stage debate with what was expected and indicates — a reply from the Minister?

I take your point.

All I can say now is that the Committee Stage of this Bill will take up the rest of the session of the Dáil because it will be fought line by line. The Dáil will not have heard a denial from the Minister of what he said were unfair criticisms. He has matters to reply to.

It is not the fault of the Chair that the debate was allowed to collapse. That is the responsibility of the Members of this House.

It is the sharp practice of the Government side of the House.

This Minister has used the most cowardly procedure possible to get out of debating this Bill. He is now covered for ever in ignominy and shame.

(Interruptions.)

I have already put the question. It is: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the question."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 59; Níl, 55.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, John.
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Carey, Donal.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Garland, Roger.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Byrne and Gilmore.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 12 June 1990.

I now declare the Bill to be read a Second Time. When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

On Tuesday, subject to agreement between the Whips.

There will be no agreement.

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