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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Jul 1990

Vol. 401 No. 4

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin Route Toll Scheme.

Mary Flaherty

Question:

15 Miss Flaherty asked the Minister for the Environment the consultations which took place with Dublin County Council before he invited proposals for a toll franchise for the Dublin Ring Road; and whether it was his Department or Dublin County Council which engaged in the negotiations and discussions with regard to the making of a toll scheme.

Brendan Howlin

Question:

49 Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for the Environment if Dublin County Council have formally applied to his Department for the making of a road toll scheme along part or all of the Western Parkway; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 15 and 49 together.

A toll scheme for the West Link section of the Western Parkway was approved in 1986. Dublin County Council have not sought my approval to a toll scheme for any other part of this route.

In March 1989 the Department invited proposals for a toll franchise for the Dublin Ring Road inclusive or exclusive of the existing West Link toll facility. Dublin County Council was consulted on a draft of the invitation document. The document, and the public advertisement, made it clear that the making of a toll scheme and any agreement with private interests relating to the charging and collection of tolls were matters reserved to the elected members of the local authority.

Four submissions were received in response to the invitation. The submissions were assessed in detail by a steering group representative of my Department, the Department of Finance and Dublin County Council. On foot of a recommendation from the steering group, it was decided, again subject to the statutory procedures, to enter into detailed negotiations with a consortium led by Manufacturers Hanover Ltd., and including also Cofiroute with a view to concluding an agreement under the Local Government (Toll Roads) Act, 1979 in relation to the ring road. In September 1989, Dublin County Council were advised by letter of this decision. It was made clear to the local authority that any agreement reached with the consortium would be governed by the provisions of the Local Government (Toll Roads) Act, 1979.

Formal negotiations have since been taking place between the Manufacturers Hanover Consortium and the steering group. These negotiations are practically concluded. When the negotiations have been concluded it is intended to put the draft heads of a toll franchise agreement before Dublin County Council for their consideration.

Can the Minister confirm to the House that he has no intention of introducing any legislation to amend the Local Government (Toll Roads) Act, 1979? Would he not accept that a steering group exercising the functions he has described is acting in breach of that legislation and that it should be a matter for the council itself and not his Department or any steering group appointed by his Department to decide whether tolling should be applied to any particular road or motorway in county Dublin?

I have stated positively, and it is just as well to have the opportunity to do so now, that under the 1979 Act the making of a toll scheme is a reserved function.

The Minister has not replied to my question. Has he any intention of introducing any legislation to this House to in any way, amend, repeal or modify the Act of 1975; and could the Minister explain the legal basis for the steering group conducting the discussions and negotiations he has referred to because this appears to be a function solely of the local authority? It appears to be a function solely of the local authority.

Yes, that is what I have said. The steering group acted only in so far as everything had been put in front of them. It was explicitly stated in every item of transaction, in so far as this business is concerned, that it is a reserved function and that Dublin County Council have the right, and will obviously take that right, to decide on the matter. That is quite clear and I want people to understand it.

What were the steering group doing muddling around with the issue in the first place?

The steering group were set up to undertake the negotiations and it was agreed between all parties that they would do that, but the matter has to be referred back to final decision by the elected members. That is what will happen if and when an agreement is reached.

Can the Minister tell the House what expenditure was incurred by the steering committee on a job that it has not yet been agreed is a reserved function of Dublin County Council? Would he not agree the cart was put before the horse? Would he also confirm to the House that it was on his instructions that Dublin County Council erected toll booths on this road, long before the council exercised their reserved function? How much has it cost the State to erect these booths?

The Minister directed nobody in that regard, but I presume, as with all other matters, the responsibility finally rests with me. The steering group consist of officials of my Department together with officials from the Department of Finance and Dublin County Council. It was recommended by the steering group that preliminary works be undertaken and, as I understand it, that was done in order to avoid any possible closure of sections of that roadway if and when Dublin County Council made a decision to apply a toll. Explicit provision to that effect was included in the draft heads of the agreement, and they are included in the heads of the agreement currently being negotiated, but it can only be done as a reserved function by the members of the council.

The Minister has not answered my question.

Sorry, I am calling Deputy Quinn.

Can I ask the Minister how much has been spent——

Deputy Quinn has been called.

The Minister has not answered my question. I asked him how much these preliminary works cost.

If the Deputy is dissatisfied with the Minister's reply, she has a remedy.

The Minister knows his Department made a mess of this matter. I can tell that from his embarrassed silence. His Department ordered toll roads——

The Department ordered that they be taken away.

They are now taking them away.

Please, Deputy Owen, this is not good enough. Deputy Quinn, without interruption.

I have two supplementary questions to put to the Minister. Firstly, were the National Roads Authority involved in any way in the discussions with the steering committee? Secondly, how much was incurred in the provision of these foundation bases for the toll booths?

Negotiations are taking place between the steering group and the consortium. I do not know how much it cost to provide those booths but I do know how much it cost to take them away.

How much?

Fifty thousand pounds.

Would the Minister agree that experience in many countries in Europe has shown that a substantial number of commercial vehicles will not use toll roads, and that the effect of these motorways will be completely negatived by commercial vehicles using the ordinary roads?

The Deputy is presuming something. The roads are being built and Dublin County Council have not considered whether they will allow a toll on any part of it. The only toll that is in existence is the one at the Strawberry Beds over the Liffey, which was agreed to by Dublin County Council. If the negotiations are concluded and Dublin County Council receive a proposal in this regard it will be a matter for them to make a decision on the matter.

As the Minister is aware, Dublin County Council have not exercised their reserved function to apply a toll to the Dublin ring road. Therefore, who established the steering group to which the Minister referred? Secondly, what extent has the public purse been involved by the establishment of that group? Have any commitments been entered into with the company concerned? If Dublin County Council decide, as is possible, not to apply a toll to that road, is there a danger of claims for compensation from that company, and who will be responsible for the public expenditure that has already been committed to this project, which has not been authorised by the appropriate body, namely, Dublin County Council?

The Minister is responsible.

As I have said, the Department invited proposals in so far as the toll franchise was concerned after consultations with Dublin County Council. They had a full draft of the invitation document. In every advertisement and in all matters of consultation that has taken place, the steering group made it quite clear to all and sundry that this is a reserved function.

Did the Minister set up the steering group?

The foundation has been built. Was it the Minister who authorised it?

Let us hear the Minister.

The steering group made a recommendation in that regard.

Do not pass the buck.

As I stated initially, the steering group made the decision and I cannot run away from the fact that I am a party to that steering group.

The Minister set it up.

I cannot say any more on the matter except that the negotiations went ahead with the full agreement of Dublin County Council. The steering group are carrying out their business and in due course if they have something to put forward by way of a proposal to Dublin County Council they will do so, but in the end, as in all such matters, Dublin County Council will be the final decision makers.

The Minister started it but he had no authority to do so.

Somebody jumped the gun.

If and when Dublin County Council agree to a toll on this road——

As they will.

——it would then be up to the Minister to agree the terms, to modify or to annual them.

Then the toll booths will have to be built again.

The Chair has given a lot of latitude on this question. A final brief and relevant question from Deputy Shatter.

The Minister told them to build toll booths.

Will the Minister confirm that in providing the plinths for the toll booths and then taking them away, there has been a waste of £150,000 of public money? Will the Minister indicate if he has any intention, in the event of Dublin County Council not sanctioning a toll, of modifying, amending or repealing the 1979 Act? If the Minister does not respond to that question, we will know exactly what he is doing.

I will deal with the first part of the question if and when it arises. As regards the second part of the question, I have no such proposal at this time.

The Minister intends to railroad a toll road. He does not know how much public money he has wasted.

No. 17, Deputy De Rossa's question.

He is embarrassed by the whole thing.

I doubt if I have wasted any money. It is my intention to finish the ring road around Dublin and to provide the citizens of this State with the best motorway ever undertaken.

Who is going to pay the £50,000 to knock it down?

It is a scandalous waste of public money.

This cannot continue. I insist on a reply to Question No. 17 now.

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