Vol. 401 No. 6
14 Mr. Pattison asked the Minister for Education if her attention has been drawn to the long delays in the payments of substitute teachers; the proposals she has to rectify the problem; when the proposals will be implemented; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
The present arrangements for the payment of substitute teachers were introduced in 1984 following discussions with the teachers' organisation and the managerial authorities and with the agreement of the Revenue Commissioners and the Department of Social Welfare. Under these arrangements the chairperson of a board of management, who employ a substitute teacher, claims a grant from the Department in respect of the pay of the substitute. Payment of the grant is made by the Department immediately the claim form is received, provided the claim is in order. I am satisfied that my Department are not responsible for any delays that may occur in the operation of the present system.
In consultation with the various interests involved, my Department have been examining the question of improving the existing system for the payment of qualified substitute teachers. Currently detailed discussions are in progress with a view to introducing revised payment arrangements for the next school year.
Is the Minister telling us that her Department are not responsible for the long delays in the payment of substitute teachers and that the responsible bodies in this case are the boards of management and, if so, would she issue a circular letter to them as many people have had to endure a great deal of hardship for some time because of this.
I am satisfied my Department are not responsible for the delays. This was admitted in the Seanad by teachers' leaders when it discussed a motion on substitute teachers. My colleague, Deputy Fahey, took part in that debate. The teachers' leaders were quite fair and admitted that responsibility for the delays did not rest with the Department of Education and that payment was made within two to five days of an application being made to the Department which by any standards is a very quick response.
Clearly, the delays lies with management. When the cheque or substitute payment arrives if the chairperson is away it is not delivered to the teachers. I will not issue circulars to schools to tell them to pay the cheque they got three months ago because we are going to alter the system and pay the substitute teacher direct. It will require all the names to be put in a computer, but that is all mechanical work, and it will be done for the next school year.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): I accept that the Minister is saying the blame is not with her Department. Speaking from experience, I am doubtful where the blame lays. Delays do occur. Of all the people in the teaching profession the teachers who substitute work at present, the modern spailpín fánach, deserve to get their money because they have to travel from one place to another. Perhaps the Minister can simplify a form that would ensure that the chairman of any board of management will have no difficulty sending it in. That would be a major help if there is some delay on the management side. From my own experience, I am not prepared to accept that it was always the chairman of the board who was at fault when there was a delay.
I am quite prepared to say it, because I have the records to prove it. If the claim is in order the longest delay in the Department is between two and five days; that is remarkably swift by any standards. I am not saying that the chairperson deliberately would not pay the substitute teacher, what I am saying is that he may not be there when the cheque arrives. In the next school year we will pay them directly. Should there be any mechanical reason the system is not in operation in September, I would consider saying something to chairpersons.
Perhaps there was a delay in submitting the claims. The substitutes have to compile the claim and submit it. Our time span is two to five days between the time we get the claim and the cheque is posted. Then it has to be delivered. I think the way we are going to handle it, by direct payment is the best way. Should there be any delay in the direct payment system, we would consider issuing very strong guidelines to chairpersons.
I welcome the decision the Minister has announced to make direct payment. Does this require amending legislation? Has the Minister authority to do this in view of the fact that the current system of operating national schools recognise these as independent entities who pay their own teachers in accordance with the law and the Department simply act as an agent for the school? May I ask of the Minister if she has the legal authority necessary to pay substitute teachers directly which, is the sensible thing to do?
The short answer is that I do not know if I have the legal authority, but the Department will investigate that. My strong belief is that it will require an amendment to the rules of national schools.
Surely the Minister who has just announced something should know whether it is legal.
Do not fret, what we are going to do——
I am not fretting. I think it is important, however, that the Minister should know when she makes an announcement — which she has done — that she has the legal authority to do what she is announcing. She has just admitted that she does not know.
I do not want to know too much more either. I have not just announced it. The Deputy is a bit tardy——
The Minister announced it here now.
The Minister still does not know whether——
Please, let us hear the Minister's reply.
It was announced at the INTO Conference in Tralee of this year and since then measures have been put in place to implement it. If we need any armchair lawyers we will look to Deputy Bruton.
Would the Minister not agree that she should know if what she is proposing is legal?
Sorry, I am calling Deputy Cotter for a final brief question.
I am not concerned about the late payment of substitutes but I am concerned about the non-provision for the payment of substitutes in national schools when teachers are absent on course days. I am sure the Minister is aware of that problem. Where no provision is made and in schools where there is not a walking principal, a class is left hanging about all day.
Did the Deputy put down a question on that subject?
I did.
It will be addressed.
We are anxiously waiting for the Deputy's question.
Will the Minister comment on this because it is a extremely grave problem for schools where children are left hanging about?
I think the Deputy has made his point.
If we get to the Deputy's question, I will answer.
Let us come then to deal with another question.
