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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 31 Oct 1990

Vol. 402 No. 3

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Programme for National Recovery.

Proinsias De Rossa

Question:

14 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the matters discussed at his recent meetings with representatives of the social partners on a possible new agreement when the current Programme for National Recovery expires; if he will outline the Government's thinking on the form any such new agreement should take; if he has considered the proposals from the ICTU for a ten-year programme covering social and economic development; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

On 8 October 1990, accompanied by the Minsters for Finance, Industry and Commerce and Labour, I met representatives of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. On the same date, we met representatives of the employer organisations — the Confederation of Irish Industry, the Federation of Irish Employers and the Construction Industry Federation.

On 10 October 1990, accompanied by the Ministers for Finance, Agriculture and Food, Energy and Labour, I met representatives of the Irish Farmers' Association, Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers' Association, Irish Co-Operative Organisation Society and Macra na Feirme.

The purpose of the meetings was to discuss the scope and content of a programme for economic and social development to succeed the Programme for National Recovery which expires at the end of 1990 and to agree the arrangements for the detailed negotiations thereon.

At the meetings, the social partners drew attention to areas which they felt should be discussed in the context of a new programme. The Irish Congress of Trade Unions submitted a document "Ireland 1990-2000: A Decade of Development, Reform and Growth" which I welcomed on behalf of the Government, as a very constructive input to the discussions. In particular, I welcomed the concept of a ten-year strategy within which programmes for a period of years would be agreed. At the meetings I outlined the Government's approach to a new programme. In particular, it should:

—cover all major economic and social areas,

—continue the process of reducing the National Debt/GNP ratio,

—contain a commitment to reducing by 1993 the standard rate of income tax to 25 per cent and to have a single upper rate and reflect the fact that severe adjustment will be necessary in VAT and excise duties in the context of EC tax harmonisation,

—stimulate continued increases in employment,

—within budgetary possibilities, provide for improvement of social welfare, education, health and housing services,

—provide for a combination of moderate pay increases with tax reliefs to increase take-home pay, and

—contain a commitment to upholding the principles of the Common Agricultural Policy and contain a long term strategy for the development of agriculture and rural areas.

Copies of the statements which issued after the meetings have been placed in the Oireachtas Library.

It was agreed at the meetings that negotiations on a new programme should commence without delay. Bilateral meetings, under the chairmanship of the secretary of the Department of the Taoiseach, have already taken place between a group of secretaries of Government Departments and representatives of ICTU, employer bodies and farm organisations. A number of working groups have been established with the social partners which are examining particular areas.

Would the Taoiseach indicate if he accepts the contention of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions that no agreement is possible unless it is seen to produce an agreement which will produce a fair share of the benefits which accrue from such agreements and that there is considerable unease among the grassroots trade union movement that the economic benefits which have accrued to date have not been translated into jobs or better incomes for ordinary workers?

I think the latter two points can be dealt with very easily. First, we were all a bit disappointed that economic growth had not been translated into jobs until we got the report of the Labour Force Survey which showed that employment to April of this year increased by 30,000. There is also evidence now that emigration is falling very rapidly so there is no doubt that employment is now coming on stream. In relation to the first programme, I have said again and again that between the actual pay increases provided for and the very substantial tax concessions, take home pay did increase very considerably in real terms, by between 7 per cent and 11 per cent, during the first programme.

May I ask the Taoiseach then if the problem facing a significant number of people in our society who are either without work and as a result living in poverty or on low pay will be addressed in any programme produced; in other words, is it the Government's intention to incorporate a minimum income concept in this agreement either by way of social welfare or by way of a minimum wage?

I do not believe in the concept of a minimum wage but I know that is a matter which is hotly discussed and debated in different societies. My own view is that the balance of the argument is against it but I do not think we should attempt to pre-empt what ICTU in the working committees will come up with and discuss and I hope we will have good rapport on all these questions eventually.

While we all applaud the list of objectives read out and welcome the fact that the Taoiseach is looking to achieve with the social partners a ten year strategy — I think that is a good thing — and that discussions are to commence immediately on a replacement for the Programme for National Recovery, would the Taoiseach not agree that one reason for the fall in emigration is the downturn in the economies of the United States and Britain and that this will have consequences for the budget of the Department of Social Welfare, in particular, next year which, in turn, will have consequences for the Government's spending programme for next year and that before what are nowadays called meaningful discussions can be entered into the Book of Estimates will have to be published as this will be one of the key documents which will have to be referred to in the discussions on any future agreement? When can we expect to see that document being published?

We can expect the Book of Estimates to be published in plenty of time. I can assure the Deputy there will be no hold-up in the negotiations because of the Book of Estimates. I accept the Deputy's thesis that the rapid fall in emigration here is largely due to economic conditions elsewhere.

That also has consequences for the budget.

Definitely.

Does the Taoiseach intend to arrange for this House to discuss these matters before a final conclusion is arrived at with the social partners?

Not at present. We are at an early stage but I think we did that the last time.

I ask the Taoiseach again if he will consider this because it is most unsatisfactory to discuss these matters after they have been agreed between the Government and the social partners because in that case the House is not in a position to give a view on what might eventuate. It can only approve or disapprove of what has happened.

I could foresee difficulties in having a major debate here during the course of the negotiations but maybe these could be overcome.

Would the Taoiseach not see an advantage in having a political input from this House into whatever emerges in terms of an agreed programme?

There are arguments both ways.

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