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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Feb 1991

Vol. 405 No. 6

Sugar Bill, 1990: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

During my contribution last Thursday I stated that the Sugar Bill was part of an ongoing policy by this Government to privatise our commercial public enterprises, a piecemeal approach to this very important issue. I stated then and I repeat now that a major debate is required both in and outside this House regarding the benefits to this State of such an approach.

I strongly oppose this Bill because it proposes to hand over to private interests majority control of this viable, efficient, commercial public enterprise which has been built up over the past 50 years by the sweat and expertise of hundreds of thousands of Irish workers.

The Sugar Company was established in 1933. Notwithstanding the opposition to the proposal at the time Seán Lemass took a very enlightened approach which proved to be a momentous decision on his part. I wonder what he would now think of current Fianna Fáil policies and whether he would feel he was betrayed in any way? Since then the Sugar Company has made a very significant contribution to the social and economic life of rural Ireland particularly in terms of employment and quality of life. It must be stated, however, that like other State companies the Sugar Company was established against a background of failure by the private sector in this area. If one studies the history of Irish life, particularly the agricultural sector throughout the forties and fifties, one sees that the Sugar Company grew in strength to the benefit of the Irish farmers. The Sugar Company gave employment to people in rural Ireland at a time when there were no other opportunities available to them.

I do not think the Labour Party are adopting a negative approach in opposing this Bill. At a time when the Coalition Government are proposing to hand over the majority shareholding in this highly succesful State company to private interests it is appropriate that the contribution made by the workers in this company down through the years is highlighted and recognised by people. We should not forget that it is their efforts alone which have made this company the highly desirable asset it is today. Very few people have anything good to say about our State companies and they believe they should be privatised but it should be remembered that it is only because these companies are so successful that private enterprises want to take them over now. Many people who did not avail of the opportunity to get involved in State companies when they were being set up are now seeking to take them over when history has shown that they can be made viable from an economic point of view.

Many people in exalted positions have said that all State companies should be privatised. I want to say clearly that State companies have made a major contribution to the economic development of this State throughout their history. As I have said before, if we want to privatise State companies we should have a major debate in this House on the merits or otherwise of such a proposal.

It should be noted that a bias has always existed against the public sector. This has been evident down through the years in the case of the Sugar Company. For example, not alone were Erin Foods expected to meet their social obligations but they were also expected to balance their books at the end of the day. Grants which were made available to companies in the private sector were not readily made available to the Sugar Company and Erin Foods. This prevented the company from making developments which would have given more employment in the food processing sector. Unfortunately, this meant that the great opportunities which existed in that sector at that time were lost.

At a time when almost 240,000 people are unemployed in the State and there is a huge level of emigration it behoves Dáil Éireann and the Government to look at the various options available whereby jobs can be provided for our people at home. I want to point out very clearly that when opportunities were highlighted in the public sector no grant aid was made available to companies unlike the private sector where the IDA provided grants to companies including companies from abroad which set up here. However, many of those foreign companies left fairly quickly when they did not receive the type of returns they had expected.

What has brought about this change of policy on the part of Fianna Fáil in regard to our commercial public enterprises? In their recent election manifestos they have given commitments to preserve and strengthen our commercial State companies. Indeed, while various Ministers stated clearly that they had fudged a little and encouraged a type of privatisation they were adamant that the Fianna Fáil Party would never envisage handing over more than 50 per cent of the shares in a public company to private individuals. If that was the case then the Progressive Democrats input into this Bill is very obvious. Since the Progressive Democrats were established they have proposed the sale of most of our semi-State companies, in many cases to the highest bidder. Given the about turn by Fianna Fáil on the issue of privatisation and their proposal to hand over more than 50 per cent of the shares in the Sugar Company to private concerns I wonder how the employees in some other State companies feel at present. I wonder how the employees in Aer Lingus feel about the commitments which have been given in regard to that company, It will be interesting to see the further developments in regard to that company.

I note from the various annual reports that the Sugar Company have made significant profits, particularly since 1986. In the 1990 annual report the managing director of the Sugar Company, Christopher Comerford, reported that in the period 1989-90 the company had achieved record levels of turnover and profitability. Profits before tax were almost £22 million, an increase of 4.86 per cent on the previous year. Profits have been increasing steadily in recent years. Profitability was recorded in the various sectors within the Sugar Company. For example, in the Sugar sector operating profits were £17.7 million, an increase of 18 per cent on the previous year. Further profits were reported in the agri-trade division, the animal feeds section and the agri-chemical section, to name but a few. Profits were made by the company through diversification. The staff took an interest in and gave a commitment to the company. Through their efforts the company succeeded in making a profit and can now look forward to the future. The commitment of the workers has to be acknowledged.

In the light of this report and indeed reports from previous years the question must be posed, why privatise now. I have my own ideas on this. A small group of people feel that is the way to go, that is the way to develop. They feel they can now move in and make a profit. It disturbs me somewhat that this Government readily look across the water and adopt the conservative policies of England, policies that have not always proved successful. I would ask them to reconsider their attitude to this matter.

I wish to refer briefly to the terms of reference and indeed the composition of the Government's ad hoc committee who examined the future of the Sugar Company. They were asked to consider three main options: the status quo, full privatisation or partial privatisation of the company. In my opinion this was a totally unacceptable way of evaluating the future direction of the company and setting in place precedents that would be followed in the future in assessing the merits for privatising other State companies. I repeat once again that a wider debate is required on this most important matter. Privatisation is a fancy word for taking something that belongs to the public and handing it over to a very small number of private individuals who can make a profit from it.

I acknowledge that, given the numbers of Progressive Democrats and Fianna Fáil Deputies in this House, with the support of the Fine Gael Deputies, this Bill will be carried. The question I would ask is why we must hand over a 55 per cent share in the company to private interests. I look forward to the comments of the Minister for Agriculture and Food on this matter. The Labour Party will be proposing amendments recommending that majority shareholding of the company remain in State ownership, in the interests of the people of Ireland.

The Bill before us does not adequately meet the concerns of the existing workforce. I note that the Sugar Company have given a commitment to give a written guarantee in regard to continuity of employment, to negotiating wages and conditions of employment, to the recognition of trade unions and so on. However, if this Bill goes through in its present form, the State will retain only a 45 per cent share in the company. In view of this it is imperative that the guarantees given to the workforce be incorporated in the Bill. I do not have to suggest to the trade union people the importance of this. The Bill as it stands does not go far enough to meet the commitments given.

I believe the minimum requirement of controlling interests will not be met. The assets of the company which have been built up over the years by the hard work and expertise of thousands of Irish people will be handed over. I would ask the Minister when replying to expand on his proposals for a stock market floation. I would also ask him to say how he proposes to spend the money that will accrue from the sale of the company. Given the economic position I would urge that the money is not wasted for short term political gain. Does the Minister propose to put some of the money back into the agricultural and horticultural industry? These are some of the questions that have to be answered. The Labour Party have no hesitation in saying that the Bill as it stands does not meet the requirements of the workforce. We hope that on Committee Stage the Minister will take on board some of the amendments we intend to put forward so that the Bill as enacted will be more realistic. I want to convey once again that I and the Labour Party are opposed to the Bill.

One may ask why, as a city Deputy, I am interested in the Sugar Company or in the semi-privatisation of that company. In my youth I spent a lot of time with my nose against sugar beet, and that has left an indelible impression on me. Listening to people talking about the privatisation of the Sugar Company reminds me of being on my knees in fields trying to thin out rows of beet, not a very pleasant occupation on a wet summer's day. I do not want to go back too far but machinery was not available in those days. I think that aspect might have led to the closure of the Tuam Sugar Factory because the farmers in that area were not prepared to put up with the slavery and sheer hard work of trying to grow beet in boggy grounds.

I have listened with interest to Deputy Ryan's Second Stage speech. One could agree with much of it. He posed questions but, to misquote Drummond, "opinions have their rights but they also have their duties". The Deputy, while saying that privatisation of this company is not right, did not say what is right, what will make the Sugar Company a better company, working better for the Irish people and the workforce. The Deputy talked eloquently about the workers in the company, and he was quite right, but he forgot to mention the management. The two go hand in hand. The workers can work all the hours God sends them but if the management is not up to scratch the company — any company, not just the Sugar Company — are in serious trouble.

I should like to go back to the genesis of the Sugar Company. It was founded to do three things, to provide a market for a cash crop for farmers, to provide employment and to reduce our dependency on foreign imports. We could do that relatively easily at the time because the structure could take advantage of the tariff wall which we built around the Twenty-six Counties. Times have changed and, to all intents and purposes, the tariff wall has gone. At the end of 1992 or at the beginning of 1993 the Sugar Company will be exposed to the full blast of competition. Let us look at the type of competition they will face. In the general sugar market we are now down to two or three major players in the EC. France has one sugar factory for the whole country, just think of the economies of scale there. We had four factories but we now have only two.

The former Eastern Germany has now joined the EC and its agriculture is not backward, regardless of what one reads in the newspapers. We are again talking about economies of scale, the former East Germany is the main root crop growing area and will remain so in the EC. When the farms of 2,000 to 3,000 hectares get their act together they will really provide competition; they could literally flood the market. We must also consider Poland and Czechoslovakia, the latter country is the home of sugar beet production. Indeed the earliest technicians who came to Ireland to set up the sugar company plants in Mallow were Czechoslovaks. They brought the technology with them in the early thirties and I am sure that they have not been idle over the last 40 years; I am sure they have developed their systems and technology. Czechoslovakia, Austria and Poland are knocking on the door of Europe and they will be a force to be reckoned with in the future. In that context we must gear ourselves to face the full blast of competition. While we are talking about the history of the company it would be remiss of me not to mention the unnamed men and women who manned the factories and kept them going. They provided the Sugar Company — this is something I would still be looking for — with a regional underpinning to the social structure in the thirties and forties which only they could have provided.

The ITGWU made a submission to the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Semi-State Bodies and I will quote one paragraph:

The Irish Sugar Company has made major contributions to regional development in employment creation, in the profitable crop which it has purchased from farmers and the spin-off effects of this income generation to traders and others. The contribution by the Irish Sugar Company to gross domestic product is substantial each year. This contribution is made through factor payments which include profit, rent, interest payment and labour costs. This contribution to GDP by the Irish Sugar Company amounted to nearly £50 million in the year 1986-87.

It should be pointed out that labour costs are the largest item in factor payments and that these have decreased in recent years. Indeed, in 1986-87, they were at the same level as in 1980-81. The fall in the Sugar Company's contribution to GDP has had an adverse effect on regional development and on the incomes of those in areas in which their factories were — or are — located. For this reason it is vitally important that decisions on the future of the Sugar Company's operations should be guided by criteria other than crude book-keeping. Cost benefit analysis of the company's contribution to the overall economy, which takes in the loss in taxation from the workers' wages, the payment in social welfare, medical cards, differential rates reductions, psychological effects of unemployment and the loss of income through the multiplier effort to others indirectly employed must all be considered.

I welcome the fact that the Minister for Finance is retaining a 45 per cent share in the company. However, it is not clear from a perusal of the Bill whether the company, when set up, can be called to account by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies. Will the committee be able to call management to account for their stewardship of what, after all, is a national asset? This vital matter must be addressed. The Sugar Company reaches through all layers of society, rural and urban. I am talking about what Damon Runyon referred to as the historical present. Things are rapidly changing; down what road should the Sugar Company go? I have heard it said in this House that the sale of shares in the Sugar Company will realise approximately £200 million although I am open to correction in this regard. What will happen to this money? Will it be used to pay off the State debt? Will some of it be ploughed back into — as it is now — Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann Teoranta to develop related industries? The Sugar Company's quota is due for review in two year's time. Any sugar which we produce over and above the quota must be sold on the open market outside Europe where the prices for sugar are a lot lower. Will this money go back to the company to develop downstream industries?

The Sugar Company should be getting into related businesses; they know about sugar and selling it. They also know about convenience foods but they should not be involved in engineering or areas of this kind which require totally different expertise.

There is a market for high grade consumer foods and it is this area with which the Sugar Company should become involved. Sugar — unless you are a dentist — has a good name and a clean image. On the Continent of Europe Irish food has this image but we are such a small player that others can literally steal our advertising or its image. I remember one morning buying butter — Kerrygold — in a supermarket in Spain; beside it I saw a carton of milk which was packaged in the very same Kerrygold colour. Although it did not bear the name "Kerrygold" I thought it was Irish. I turned the carton over and I saw that the milk had come from Germany. Its packaging was Irish, complete with shamrocks, not overdone. It struck me that the German company realised that Ireland has something to sell, a clean image. They cerainly jumped on the bandwagon in this regard.

I contacted An Bord Bainne and was told that they could do nothing about the problem. At the moment we use the name "Kerrygold" on milk-related products. Maybe we should look at this name again to see if we could use it on other branded products because that is the way forward. Branded products will command a premium price and will be instantly recognisable as first class, high quality foods.

Before this Bill goes through I hope ideas like this will be discussed and debated in the Dáil Chamber so that we can tease them out. The amount of money we are talking about seems large by our standards, but it is not. It will be a minnow in the EC pool and unless management are careful the company will be driven to the wall. I am sorry to harp on this, but all depends on management, the decisions they take and what they do with the money they raise on this future privatisation. The Minister for Agriculture and Food and the Minister for Finance of the day, whoever they are, must keep an eye on what is going on and ensure that we get value for money and expand the potential in our image and on our foods. After all, if we continue rationalising businesses we will be left with one factory, or maybe no factory, with the loss of all the underpinning these industries provide.

This measure provides one more opportunity for an Irish company to compete on an international level. Recently another businessman in the food industry tried it and due to circumstances beyond many people's control, he failed. However, that does not make the dream unviable. In fact, if we do not try to put flesh, bones and clothing on this dream, we will be relegated to the backwater of European life in the food production area.

The Green Party, Comhaontas Glas, emphatically oppose this Bill. This Bill is clearly very similar to the Government's proposals in the case of Irish Life. However, I would like to compliment the management and staff of the Sugar Company for their excellent financial results disclosed in the 1990 annual report. It is particularly inappropriate that we should be doing what we are doing here through the programme of closures and centralisation when the success of the company has been made possible by the sacrifices of workers and farmers. In many areas farmers have been deprived of the option of growing one of the few profitable alternatives to cereal crops, being pushed relentlessly towards monoculture with all its environmental problems.

Unfortunately, due to short-sightedness in years gone by, we do not even have a decent rail network to transport the beet over distances thereby reducing costs all round and, of course, there is the environmental damage due to excessive use of the road network.

We in the Green Party believe the Thurles sugar factory should never have been closed. Forty per cent of the processing plants in Europe process less than 5,000 tonnes per day, which was the throughput of Thurles, and they operate profitably.

There are TDs sitting in the Dáil today because they promised to keep the Thurles factory open. Why did they break their promises and contribute instead to the deterioration of the surrounding agricultural community? Was it the lure of selling a company which has a monopoly not only in contracting the crop with farmers but in the supply and price of seed, fertiliser and chemical sprays for that crop? Farmers, workers and consumers are already suffering, and will continue to suffer, from the restructuring of the Goodman Group. Will safeguards be built in to prevent a similar situation in this company or will another factory be closed should it be judged to be uneconomic within the artificial criteria used by private enterprise? What guarantee will farmers have of fair payment when yet again they are forced to deal with a monopolistic private company? Hardly a season goes by without some major controversy on basic issues such as sugar content, the monitoring of tare, access to information, etc. One of the reasons for the substantial profits of the company is the way tare is now processed. This is an absolute rip off of the sugar growers to the extent of at least £6 million a year.

The Minister mentioned a golden share. However, he must surely be aware that the industrial mandarins of the EC intend scrapping all such shares in their quest for control. It is really being used as a fig leaf by this centralist Thatcherite Government who, oddly enough, seem to have a total lack of concern about possible foreign takeovers. Can the Minister ensure that the present sugar quota will remain in this country, as it would seem to be under threat of export from several sources such as the Single Market after 1992 as well as foreign takeovers? We suggest that the growers should be given more control over the quota, possibly as an option or even direct ownership.

If this company are privatised, there is a very real possibility that the new company would import cheap sugar from Third World countries which would have a devastating effect on the industry. Once profit becomes the sole criterion, there is no saying where this could leave the industry.

The usual glib remarks by established politicians about expanding the food and vegetable processing activities of the company must sound very hollow indeed to the people of Tuam and Thurles who are still waiting for their promised jobs, but they are treated with scepticism by farmers and growers throughout the country who remember the last time they invested time, money and effort into such undertakings only to suffer when these options were snatched from them due to lack of long term planning in the whole agricultural sector.

The Green Party are not in favour of State enterprise; per se, in fact very much the opposite. However, privatisation is not the answer, especially for a large company like the Sugar Company which will be in a monopoly situation. All interested parties in the Sugar Company, that is, the employees, the growers, the consumers and the community, should have a say in the running of this company. The growers need a fair price for their produce; the consumer needs a reasonable purchase price for sugar; and the employees need real industrial democracy to recognise their contribution to the industry. The workers must receive more than just a wage in any newly structured Sugar Company. They must have full participation in management decisions and a share of the profits. The company need to be restructured to respect the needs of these separate interests.

Another matter which must not be overlooked is a thorough examination of the ancillary companies controlled by or associated with the Irish Sugar Company. Many of these companies integrate naturally into the Sugar Company's operations, nevertheless a fresh look needs to be taken in the context of privatisation. In particular the recent acquisition of a 50 per cent interest in Odlums, the flour millers, seems to indicate that the company are seeking to emulate the Goodman Group in becoming a broadly based food industry with all the connotations for a possible future monopoly.

This is a unique opportunity to set up a completely different structure for a semi-State company like the Sugar Company. Therefore, I ask the Minister to withdraw this Bill to enable these ideas to be considered further.

I was somewhat surprised at some of the things Deputy Garland has just said. I respect and listen to Deputy Garland's contributions. They are usually more thoughtful and weighted than, certainly, his closing comments. To be critical of a company such as this for their wish to become a broadly based industry is contrary to what is suggested as being commercially wise and prudent.

State enterprises represent one of the most prolific experiments in public administration in the past 50 years. There have been two great waves, one into State enteprises where the State has become more and more involved in the market for a variety of reasons, and then an international movement of the State out of the marketplace. We should not consider privatising a company operating in the State sector or nationalising a company operating in the private sector solely because of some trend which has been observed in international affairs. It is logical, however, to see that there is a natural cycle in the life of any State enterprise. A State enterprise is nurtured; it grows and develops and if it is prudent in its affairs it can be launched into the private marketplace. There is nothing wrong with that. There is nothing about that scenario which is inherently right either. Each case must be regarded on its merits.

Oddly enough, with regard to State enterprises, broadly speaking, parties of the left seem to claim State enterprises as an invention of their own. The reality is that State enterprise, outside the Eastern bloc countries, has been distributed very widely, particularly in Europe, among countries irrespective of the ideology of their Governments. Sweden, for example, a country which generally has Government of the Left has had very little State enterprise, whereas Austria in contrast, in terms of OECD countries, has probably more State enterprise than any other, yet that is not a reflection of the political flavour of Governments.

There are many reasons why states become involved in the marketplace and ideology is just one of them. The failure of private enterprise is another reason why states become involved in the marketplace. Here we have examples of that. The ACC and the ICC were examples of companies set up because the private sector bankers were not prepared in the early years of the State to take the risk and support Irish agriculture and industry.

History, too, has been the creator of many state enterprises, particularly in mainland Europe where the prerogative of kings has passed on to democratic states. For example, alcohol, tobacco and salt monopolies are to be found around the world and they are really the inheritance of collapsed monarchies. Quasi-tax reasons is another basic reason for the state becoming involved in state enterprises, as is the idea that there is a resource which should be exploited for the common good and the best way to exploit that resource to bring the maximum benefit to the people of the country is through a state enterprise.

In the sixties and seventies there was a blossoming worldwide of state oil enterprises. These were agencies set up by Governments to exploit a wasting resource which it was felt the private sector would not yield to the maximum benefit to the states in question. Accidents of war are another reason. In France in particular a great deal of enterprise owned by the State was inherited by the State, or rather was taken over by the State at the end of the last war and the preceding war. Chemical and automobile industries in France have largely become nationalised on that basis. There is also what economists refer to as the dying duck rationale. This is the cynical abuse of state enterprise where governments intervene to save a dying enterprise at least until after the next election. This, of course, is a very costly way of supporting private enterprise failures.

Employment creation is the more positive side of the same thing. We have had many examples of state enterprise being created here to assist employment by developing an industrial base. As in the case of Aramara Teoranta, companies were kept in place by the State in order to provide employment or to protect employment. We have this in the case of Irish Life as well. The nine companies that were going to the wall when Irish Life was first set up had a significant employment content, and the argument put forward in the Dáil to support this was for employment creation or employment protection.

Resource development is another reason very commonly associated with the creation of State enterprises in Ireland. The Sugar Company very much a company that fall into that category. Like Bord na Móna and the ESB, the Sugar Company were regarded in their day as helping to develop a resource. Financial re-adaptation where companies get into difficult financial circumstances is another reason for the State moving in.

The reason I have listed this chronicle of rationale for State enterprises is to make the point that there is a variety of reasons why the State should intervene in the marketplace and why it makes good sense for the State to take over and develop an enterprise. In general, in Ireland we have been very fortunate. Since the foundation of the State our State enterprises have contributed to a very considerable degree to the development of the economic life of the nation.

The Sugar Company are one of those companies. They were originally founded to bring industry and employment to parts of the country where there was not an industrial base, to secure employment in other parts of the country and to provide a specific cash crop for small farmers in the west. When the Irish Sugar Company were created, those were prudent sound reasons socially, politically and economically for the creation of a State enterprise. However, as with many of the other reasons why State enterprises have been created here and elsewhere, circumstances change and history marchaes on. The Sugar Company have had a very troubled past in recent times possibly because over the years they were encouraged to expand, to become involved in regional policy issues, to dramatically expand employment potential and they were encouraged by the State to move out of sugar and into other food processing. The problem over all the years the Sugar Company operated, like so many other State enterprises, was that our ambitions for the State enterprise surpassed our capacity to capitalise the venture, to expand and let the venture grow.

Political will.

It is not just political will. If it were just a matter of political will resources would have been there. There is a small problem. There is no tooth fairy to provided the sort of cash inputs an enterprise like this needs to fulfil its full potential in the economy. We all recognise that there is a problem. There has been a cycle in this industry. At the moment for instance we know that domestic consumption of sugar is declining dramatically. There is a need to enter into the non-sugar sweeteners market. It is interesting that a couple of years ago when we could have bolstered the Sugar Company by moving a major producer of non-sugar sweeteners into the sugar company, Wheat Industries Ltd., which at that time was owned by the State and which is the first example of privatisation in the past 15 years, we disastrously sold off Wheat Industries Ltd. We gave it away for its written-down asset value. That decision was taken by another Government. I do not introduce it to be controversial but to make the point that when we hear people from Labour and some contributors from Fine Gael speaking on this Bill, they are being a little disingenuous to say the least. The reality is that the Sugar Company have weathered many storms and Deputy Garland was quite correct when he said that they have turned round. The industry has been turned around over the past few years at considerable cost to the people of Thurles, Tuam and the workers in the company.

Two years ago when the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies met with the Sugar Company and met, over a series of meetings, with the management of the Sugar Company, the argument continually came forward that the company had grown to a point of maturity where it was now ready to be launched into the private market. The argument was put forward that the best way forward for this company, the best way they could be developed, the best way they could utilise their levy, the best way they could secure the employment and well-being of their workforce, was by moving out from the protection of the State and into the private sector where some additional injections of capital and cash could be put into it.

It is in fulfilment of those particular wishes which have been expressed by management and middle management and, in fact, expressed privately by workers within the company, that this Bill; is introduced. It is not a nefarious piece of legislation aimed at selling off part of the family jewels in order to raise cash; it is a sensible piece of legislation which is introduced to allow the Minister to invite private capital participation in this enterprise. If we were all being objective and if instead of political agenda we had a logical economic and social agenda for this company, we would accept that this is the way the Sugar Company have to move.

I have no particular ideological commitment to the concept of State enterprise. I do, however, believe that State enterprise has served this country well. State enterprise over the years has devoured a great deal of capital and all too often in some State enterprises there has been an element of featherbedding, of back sliding, of comfort, which would not exist were those enterprises to operate with private shareholding. I do not believe that the Sugar Company was one of those enterprises.

The Sugar Company played a very brave role in the development of Ireland, particularly in the fifties and sixties when they were on an expansionary trial. It is a pity we did not have the sense and foresight to channel their energies and enthusiasms in the right direction. Fundamental mistakes were made by successive Governments of different hues by not properly capitalising the enterprise.

We cannot change the past, all we can do now is influence the future. If the Sugar Company is to develop, expand and become a meaningful player in a European market which is increasingly difficult then they must get capital injections from somewhere. It is obvious in a State that has eschewed the way of public sector borrowing, that has limited taxation capacity, and has very few reserves, that the only way this company can expand or develop is if the Minister is given the power by the Dáil to invite in private sector funds and private sector capital.

One argument which has been made from time to time — and I admit that I have made this point myself — about the privatisation route is that our markets and Stock Exchange are so small that it would have difficulty digesting some of our State enterprises. This argument was put forward in the case of Irish Life but it can also be put forward in the case of this company. When one looks behind that argument at the level of investment, particularly being made by institutional investors here and abroad, it is obvious that within the public of Ireland as represented by various financial institutions and by private investors, the capacity to privatise this company is there. The only issue that will remain at that stage will be to strike a proper price for the company. That is always a difficult judgment.

I have felt in other countries — and in the only case of privatisation that I am familiar with in detail in this country, Wheat Industries — that there have been mistakes made on pricing. I would hope that we would be more prudent and that we will learn from the mistakes of others in this regard. I cannot see how we will serve the sacrifice that is being made by the people who have given so much to turn this company around if we hide our heads in the sand and argue that there is any easy option for assisting this company other than by going the route which is proposed in this Bill.

The Bill is a modest one. It is not overly dramatic. The arguments can be mustered very successfully in favour of letting the Sugar Company go the way that its management has been asking for the last four or five years. I do not believe that the workers have anything to fear from this Bill and I certainly do not believe that the producers of beet and the suppliers to the company have anything to fear. It is more than a little irresponsible that people without a shred or scintilla of evidence put forward arguments and suggestions that the workers will lose out badly. The only way the workers within the Sugar Company will lose out badly is if their future and their interests are not properly and honestly secured and the only way we can secure their future is by injecting additional money into the company.

It is important that the company be released now. The management of this company and other State enterprises have come before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies in the past three or four years and argued that they feel they are fettered and constrained in the State sector. I do not accept that argument on each occasion when it is put forward but I do think that the management within the Sugar Company have proved in the past few years that they have a workforce and a capacity to turn the company around to make it very viable within the food sector and to make it a company we would be proud of. I have no doubt at all that this company will have a very bright future.

We should not come in here and cloak our opposition to this Bill in spurious arguments. Arguments have been put forward by the Minister, and the arguments of logic are in favour of moving in the direction proposed in the Sugar Bill, 1990, and I am pleased to support it.

I welcome the opportunity that this legislation will give the Irish Sugar Company fairly and squarely to face up to competition which, would drown them had it not come at this stage. The future of any company, particularly the Irish Sugar Company, if starved of much needed investment funds would be very bleak indeed. It would be unreasonable to expect the Irish taxpayer to fund such an arrangement. I do not see in the present financial situation how we could ask the taxpayer for the type of funding that will be necessary.

It is very important to point out that it was by the grace of God in years past that international trading in sugar did not point its competitive ways to Ireland. There was a time a few years ago when French sugar was delivered and sold in Irish supermarkets at less than the cost at which we could produce it. That was a hair raising experience for the producers of sugar and, obviously, it had all to do with keeping costs down.

I want to make it clear that in European terms we are talking about a very small company. By Irish standards they are quite a large company. As somebody who grew beet for this country over the years I have a great deal of respect for some of the things that the Sugar Company tried to do in rural Ireland. However, great care must be taken about the way the company are privatised in the context of the checks and balances that are being proposed. I cannot claim to be a professional in company law but from past experience I would question the golden share, the Government proposal to shed control over certain aspects of the operations of the Sugar Company with the Government having a lot less than 50 per cent. I sincerely hope I am wrong. In a few moments I will outline a likely scenario.

Many would say privately that they bemoan the passing of the Sugar Company as they know it. Like everything else the new order takes a bit of getting used to. I will have a lot to say about the workers in Tuam in a moment. They have a real problem. Can they expect the same procedures to be adopted when there are different people at the helm? The people who put their money into this company will want their pound of flesh. When they buy shares in the company they will want their profit, and that is what it is all about. I have met a goodly number of workers who are genuinely upset. Let us suppose that nothing is done and the Sugar Company are allowed to trundle on as they were. Then they would have an even bigger problem.

There is room for concern for farmers too. Our beet quota is extremely important to us. As with the milk quota, and every other quota, who knows exactly what will come out of the common agricultural policy discussions? Nobody in the country knows one iota of what is happening because the agenda is written elsewhere, but that is a debate for another day. The farmers were for a long time the poor relation of the Sugar Company and the profit margins in beet production were poor. There was not always much consideration for the primary producer but a lot of consideration for management and the labour relations side of things. Not much attention was given to the people who, when things were not as mechanised as they are now, went out and did the work — and it was a laborious industry at that stage. Times change and there is now mechanisation.

Beet is an important rotational crop in farming. The better beet growing areas consist of the more fertile lands in the country and it is a high cash crop for farmers. I believe that a multi-national food company will have an interest in it and I sincerely hope there will be a mechanism to ensure that the profits cannot be moved out of the country. I have heard nothing from the Minister, and have read nothing in the various communiques issued, that would lead me to believe that is guaranteed. I do not think it can be quaranteed in so far as we do not know what the future will bring. I would like to see much clearer evidence of our ability to control what will happen in regard to beet quotas and contracts.

Although his style did not particularly suit my part of the country, I have to give credit where credit is due and say that Chris Comerford gave great leadership. He has put a lot of time and effort into the Sugar Company. It is ironic that so many people had to lose their jobs in Tuam and Thurles to arrive at some of the new profit margins, and I will come back to that in a few moments. Given the right mix of investment and company leadership the Sugar Company can be a great force in the development of agriculture in the future. In the time of the late General Costello there was a buzz about the Sugar Company. I was a lot younger then than I am now and it appeared at that time that the Sugar Company had taken on a whole new social dimension. It will be remembered by people who were in the service at the time that there were many forays into all sorts of sideline activities. I could talk about Gowna farm near Ballyforan, Erin Foods, the potato factory in Tuam and many others all over Ireland. Unfortunately, many of them had slow and painful deaths.

Does the Deputy know why the Tuam potato plant closed?

I do. It closed and so did the sugar factory. While the initial ideas were always good and technology was not there and they had not the ability to change quickly enough with the times. One other thing I will always associate with the Irish Sugar Company is their belief in the contracting system between the growers on the one hand and the processors on the other.

I do not think we should get too carried away with it because I have often said it was something we should have extended between farmers and processors. I am afraid, however, that it was a captive market. Where else could one go with a lorry load of sugar beet except to a sugar factory? Where else could one go with milk other than to a creamery? However, when one got the chance of going into sheep or cattle there were one thousand and one other places and one went to the highest bidder. While the Sugar Company could take great credit for the contracting arrangements it was difficult enough to extend them to other areas of farming operations although they are badly needed.

Because of the traditional base the Sugar Company had in rural Ireland, they were trusted. They were a force for change, a vehicle for progress. I see the Minister for Agriculture and Food here and, while I am not in the mood to criticise this evening, I have to say that despite all his best efforts it is very difficult to do the things here vis-á-vis the Sugar Company that should be done. I always thought the Sugar Company, all things being equal, were more likely than any other company to be a remarkable force. Somehow or another they ran out of steam.

I agree with Deputy Roche that we must think about the future now. The new Sugar Company will have to be very cost effective. They will have to be competitive on the international scene. It will not be enough to be competitive here. We are a very small market community and obviously we will have to hitch our star to a much wider sky altogether. In my view it is likely that a multinational company will be involved.

I should like to refer to something which is parochial because this is the only chance I will ever get of putting it on the record of the House. A black mark against the Sugar Company and its major shareholder — the Government — concerns what I can only call a breach of promise regarding the company's withdrawal from sugar manufacturing in Tuam. I want to put on the record today that Tuam did not get one single replacement job since the harvest of 1986-87 when the sugar factory there closed. I defy contradiction on that from anybody, from any side of this House, from the IDA, the county development team and the Sugar Company themselves. Five years later all we have got is the promise to build an advance factory. I notice that the Minister led off with that. There is one vitally important point about the Sugar Company's withdrawal from Tuam and I am sure the position is the same for Thurles but I do not know the background details. When any town loses a long-established traditional industry words cannot explain or express the trauma of the fall-out. In fact, Tuam will never be the same again.

There were great behind-the-scenes negotiations to ensure that the Sugar Company did not walk away scot free from Tuam in late 1986. At that time I was junior Minister in the Department of Agriculture and I represented East Galway — where Tuam is located — on that occasion. I had a meeting with the Chief Executive of the Sugar Company who, I have no doubt whatever, was working on the instructions of his board to guarantee the sum of £2 million to Tuam as the cost of their withdrawal from the town. I want to say that publicly on the Floor of this House. This investment was to come in the shape of a high technology meat processing plant where the Sugar Company would canvass for a processor in conjunction with the IDA. The meeting which was private took place in a Dublin hotel. On that occasion I was shown a sketch of the proposed building and was told what was to be manufactured there. I was almost told who would be involved in it. At any rate I was left in no doubt whatever that the total commitment by the Sugar Company to Tuam, among other things that are long past and gone, of £2 million would be made available. I have to say that in the intervening years, unfortunately for us, fate and Larry Goodman intervened and we know the Government bent over backwards to facilitate the beef baron. His project was stillborn, he never came to Tuam and, obviously, after the events of the last couple of years he never will come to Tuam. The problem is that almost five years later the Government and the Sugar Company are taking credit for the provision of a 20,000 square foot advance factory when we have had an advance factory in the town for ten years for which we have not been able to find an occupant. However, there may be better prospects of attracting industry to a town where there is an advance factory available than to a town where there is no such facility. I understand that building will commence within a couple of months but that the factory will be no different from the advance factory on the Dunmore Road.

This new building will cost the Sugar Company between £200,000 and £250,000. That will be their investment in Tuam. I should like to put it on the record that I hold the Sugar Company and the Government responsible for the other £1.8 million. The reason I am raising this point is that it can only be delivered, as solemnly promised five years ago, before privatisation takes place. I do not expect the new financiers who will get involved in the Sugar Company to be one bit concerned about what happened in Tuam, County Galway, in 1986-87; that would be the least of their worries. I was one of the participants at that meeting, which was attended by the chief executives, it is not that I heard about it, that I was written to about it or that I got a telephone call about it. I believe the chief executive meant what he said at that time. I should like to say to the Minister that it is up to the Government, as the major shareholder, to ensure that the Sugar Company will actually carry out their solemn promise to Tuam. It is the only chance for the community in Tuam who lost 300 or 400 jobs and several part-time jobs. At one stage 700 people were working either directly or indirectly in the Sugar Company there. It is incumbent, irrespective of what way you look at it, that that £1.8 million be delivered to Tuam, specifically for job creation. I hope that when the Minister stands up to reply he will give us an indication that the Government do intend, as the major shareholder, to hold the company to that promise.

I want to say also that there is grave concern in Tuam at present regarding Tuam Engineering. As the Minister is aware this is a subsidiary of the Sugar Company. There are all sorts of rumours about takeovers but one way or another I should like to say that the workforce in Tuam Engineering are less than enthusiastic about the privatisation proposals because they are not able to get a word from anybody as to what their future is likely to be. I hope they will not be sold down the Swannee as were the workers in Erin Foods, followed by the workers in the sugar factory. I hope this matter will be addressed on Committee and Report Stage because the fears and anxieties of those concerned should be taken note of and we should, at least, be given some indication of what proposals the Sugar Company have for Tuam Engineering.

There are many other aspects of the privatisation proposals I would like to refer to but time is running out. From a national point of view it is a gigantic leap for a company, such as the Sugar Company, to be privatised and to swim in much deeper and more dangerous waters. However, if this were not to take place they would drown in shallow waters. I am confident that they will be able to capitalise on this development and get the type of investment that is absolutely necessary for a food company. I believe they will be able to expand into many areas in the whole food industry. I cannot think of a vehicle that is more likely to be successful.

I know that the company's record shows that over the years some of their endeavours were not well thought out. They were certainly not well researched because they met with a very poor response, but one can also argue that they were imaginative, that the company were prepared to take risks. I hope that that type of verve which was characteristic of the Sugar Company over the years will be maintained. I know the workers and the farmers are worried and I would have concern for them but all I can say at this stage from what I know of the company and from what I see of international competition is that this is the only hope the company will have of attracting new financial investment and ensuring they are in a position to compete with the best in Europe or the world for that matter. What happened to the factories in Tuam and Thurles may happen to the other two factories — there is nothing to suggest that we will only have one sugar factory. I hope that will not happen but it could.

As I said, I hope the golden share will be as important as the Ministers for Finance and Agriculture and Food have led us to believe. I cannot see how it will be that important in practice, but I hope it will be. I welcome the Bill in principle.

I strongly agree with what Deputy Connaughton said about the scandalous manner in which Tuam has been reneged on by the Government, I would say, rather than by the Sugar Company. Deputy Connaughton referred to the period during which he was junior Minister. I was in Tuam at that time on behalf of my union, the ITGWU as it was then, when Mark Killilea, representing the Fianna Fáil Party, was being extremely vociferous — I certainly found it very difficult to keep pace with him — about what was going to be done for Tuam and the workers at Tuam by the Fianna Fáil Party when they were returned to power. It is a matter of concern that the promises, such as they were, which were entered into in such a firm fashion have not been honoured and that Tuam — I do not want to use any emotive terms — has been treated so shabbily and left in a very bad way in terms of employment arising from that closure and the subsequent broken promises. Even though there are two Government Ministers from the area, it is a cause of great concern to anybody who visits Tuam to see it has been reduced to the status of an outpost of Galway. People try to find jobs in Galway, socialise there and Tuam, which was such a thriving town, has been reduced to its present quiet status.

I also agree with Deputy Connaughton that the Sugar Company cannot be allowed to trundle on as they have been doing, having regard to the threat posed by international market conditions and the fact that they would be a very small company in that international perspective. While I recognise the necessity for the Sugar Company to be competitive, efficient and so on, I cannot understand how we make the leap from there to agreeing with the measure before the House to sell off a majority stake in the Sugar Company. I cannot appreciate that.

For example, I am puzzled by the contribution of Deputy Roche who rambled on, as we all have come to recognise and dread, giving us a lecture about the role of State enterprise in Ireland. We all have our views on the role of State enterprise in Ireland. Perhaps he is right that not all the State companies were as efficient and well managed as they ought to be. They certainly were not as well funded as they ought to be and virtually all of them have a debt equity ratio which is a fundamental problem for them. Having regard to the debt burden and repayment schedule, it was not possible for them to be a dynamic force to the extent we would like. However, as Deputy Roche admitted, one could not say that about the Sugar Company.

The Deputy's entire contribution was marked by a Tadhg an dá thaobh approach. He said it was Fianna Fáil and not the Left who were the creators of the State sector. That is not quite right in the case of this company but, generally speaking, Fianna Fáil were very prominent in establishing the State sector as we know it. He went on to praise this at great length and then he told us all the reasons the company should be sold off. Deputy Roche will never get the promotion he is aiming for if he continues to play with both hands. He should make up his mind to come down on the side of one potential new leader or another, he cannot have it both ways. He suggested that the Sugar Company will be in safe hands from the point of view of the workforce and producers in this new arrangement.

Deputy Connaughton referred to the efficacy of the golden share. I very much agree with him because there is no precedent which leads me to believe that the use of the golden share will keep control of the Sugar Company in Irish hands in the future. We have nothing to go on but the Minister's commitment in this respect. What about the experience in regard to Britoil and Jaguar in Britain? There it was very clear that the golden share did not guarantee against a foreign takeover. I am afraid I cannot accept the Minister's commitment. I find it very difficult to see the party who proclaim paternity of the State sector now coming in here and putting through a measure which involves selling off that company.

I was surprised at some of the questions asked by Deputy Fitzpatrick. He wanted to know, for example, what the accountability of the new company and its managers will be and whether they would be required to appear before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Commercial State-Sponsored Bodies. I should like to hear the Minister's answer to that but I cannot for the life of me see how they will because they will no longer be a State company. He asked what the money raised by the flotation of shares will be used for and whether it will be reinvested in the company, as he recommended. I agree with him that that is not the purpose of the flotation. The purpose of the flotation, according to the Minister for Finance at Question Time last week, is to pay off part of the national debt. I know the company have their own segment of shares from which they will seek to raise some money for acquisition purposes, but the majority stake is being sold off to pay off the national debt. I find that extremely difficult to take seriously, and I do not accept the Minister's statement.

The Deputy who raised the question asked the Minister if this money would be used to pay off the principal or to minimise the debt repayments. The Minister seemed to say that it would be used to pay off the principal. I do not accept that but in any event, the point is this: if we were to sell off every State company we would realise about £2 billion the national debt is £25 billion, that is the order of the problem about which we are talking. I would like to be able to make some reduction in the national debt for all the obvious economic reasons which would flow, but to sell off the Irish Sugar Company for a sum not of the order mentioned by Deputy Fitzpatrick but suggested to be about £60 million, will make no impact on the national debt.

I regret to say, as a trade unionist, that in respect of the privatisation of the Irish Sugar Company, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions are wrong. The retention in public ownership of such a critical indigenous company in the food sector warranted the trade union negotiators making this a sine qua non at the negotiating table for a new national agreement or Programme for Economic and Social Progress. They did not make it such a bargaining factor at the table and, by accepting the argument of the Government that there will be no more capital available for expansion purposes for the Sugar Company, they have effectively given the green light to privatisation.

How can any Government — we can go over the figures; there is a recently published review on industrial performance and there was another a little over three years ago — who commit on average about £800 million per annum in grants and in tax foregone to private industry which we seek to attract here through the IDA and so on, claim there is therefore no money available to develop one of our major successful indigenous companies? There is always money available for good investment.

Indeed, it is interesting to highlight this with remarks of a politician who was referred to a couple of times in this debate, a former leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, Seán Lemass. I will quote from a book presented to me by its author, Michael Foy, in the mid-seventies when I represented for a brief time the workers in the Sugar Company. Michael Foy who was an employee of the Sugar Company wrote this book, The Sugar Industry in Ireland, which I am sure some Deputies are familiar with and which is unfortunately only of historic interest now. For example, a similar argument was put forward to Seán Lemass when he became Minister for Industry and Commerce. The book stated:

In the first Fianna Fáil Government, some eight years later, the Carlow industry was in real trouble and calling for further Government assistance. It has been said that when the files of the Carlow operation were shown him by his staff, clearly indicating "failure", Lemass remarked: "Yes, it appears a "failure". But we'll save it. We'll buy it. We'll build three more with it. Now tell me how that can be done.

Mr. Foy commented:

That was the spirit of the '20s and the '30s. That was the spirit which was to leave the nation a trend-setter — as indeed the sugar beet industry was to become — not merely for agriculture and the national industrial programme which it heralded, but also in extending the helping hand of technical knowhow to the underprivileged overseas, an exercise of the sugar beet industry which was to win much credit and respect for Ireland.

That was the attitude, "sure we have no more money" which in the straitened twenties and thirties was demonstarated by the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Seán Lemass. I simply cannot understand, in a circumstance where we are still prepared to lavish, between tax breaks and grants, in the order of £800 million per annum on private industry, that we cannot provide the money to develop a major indigenous company in the food sector, especially in the context of the failure of private industry to produce the jobs in that sector.

Reference has been made by Deputy Connaughton to the difficulties of the Goodman enterprise. This was supposed to be the private sector or joint venture answer to the problems of developing a large-scale player in the food industry I accept — I made this clear at the time of the Goodman debates — the necessity for the development of a large-scale player. I do not think we are at the races internationally unless we develop such a large-scale player. In our present circumstances, why the Sugar Company ought not be used as precisely such a vehicle and why they should not be funded from the sources I have indicated escapes me.

I would like to refer to the Programme for Social and Economic Progress which asserts that, “the Government are committed to the maintenance of a viable and profitable commercial semi-State sector”. That declaration of faith is hedged about with qualifications. The programme states: “Any changes in the ownership structure of particular State companies will only take place if it is in the public interest and in the best interest of the company and its employees and following consultation with the Social Partners.” That is so hedged around with qualifications as to be virtually meaningless. Who will define “the public interest” which must also be in the interest of the company? The answer is the Government or maybe, if it is an especially hot political potato at the time, they will refer it to the NESC for approval. The clause is nothing more than a fig leaf and the requirement to have consultation with the social partners is little more than window dressing.

We already know the position of the IFA and the FIE. They are in favour of privatisation. Consultation with Congress is a very poor substitute for the veto that Congress effectively held, up until the 1987 Government were formed, on this critical question of privatisation of our major State commercial companies. Just before the 1987 election the Taoiseach gave a commitment to the executive council of Congress that there was no question but that it would be out of kilter with Fianna Fáil approach for Fianna Fáil to touch the state companies and to sell them off to private interests. A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, may I ask what time does the Minister come in at?

That is what the Congress position is reduced to, they have a right to consultation.

I presume the Deputy does not feel obligated to keep speaking until then. The Minister may come in at any time.

I will feel obligated to speak only for as long as I consider I have something of value to say. I will not be filling in time just for the sake of doing so, I assure you.

I will give one other example of how anyone as familiar as I am with agreements like the Programme for Economic and Social Progress can drive a coach and four through the article of faith, “the maintenance of a viable and profitable commercial semi-State sector”, which, incidentally, is one of the Fianna Fáil core values that is supposed to distinguish Fianna Fáil from Fine Gael and from the private marketeers of the Progressive Democrats. Paragraph 89.2 (b) (ii) of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress reads:

Sales of shares in a State company to the private sector where this will enable the company to survive, to make a better contribution to the economy, to protect or increase employment, [and now my emphasis] or is desirable on policy grounds.

In other words, most of us in this House can subscribe to the greater part of that clause but, as is the case in respect of many key sections of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress there is tagged on to the end of it an allencompassing permissive clause, “on policy grounds”. In other words, if it is in the interests of the company or the workers or if it is to enable the company to survive we all agree with that, but in case that is not enough tagged on to the end is, “or is desirable on policy grounds”. There is no conceivable circumstance where that kind of chapter in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress is worth the paper it is written on. If everything else fails — I could spend all day here quoting from the other sub-paragraphs — the Minister can always come into this House and say, “but it is desirable on policy grounds”. Inevitably policy grounds are in the eye of the beholder, and I am afraid the horse has bolted on this occasion.

I want to emphasise that The Workers' Party opposition to selling off our key State companies to private business is not based on ideological grounds but rather on sound economic sense which acknowledges the vital role which a viable and efficient State sector can play in generating wealth and jobs in our economy, where the record shows the failure of the private sector alone to provide employment for our people. If this Government are serious about tackling unemployment — and the modest targets in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress are for a standstill — then the development and expansion of public enterprise must be part of their job creation strategy. The Minister for Agriculture and Food is in the House and I am quite sure that he would have agreed until quite recently that that is what Fianna Fáil would say. It is worth recording — and this is in the programme — that our existing commercial State companies account for approximately 10 per cent of our gross national product.

In the wake of the Goodman experience and the consensus that exists concerning the necessity to develop and expand our food sector, it is clear that the Government's rush to privatise the Sugar Company has more to do with political dogma than with economics. What is there to suggest that privatising the Sugar Company will assist the industrial development opportunities in the sugar and related industries? It is a matter for grave concern that the performance of the private sector in the food area has been so weak. Since 1972 and our entry to the EC the number employed in the food processing sector has actually declined from 43,700 people to 35,000.

What is the financial purpose of this headlong rush to privatise the Sugar Company? The timing could scarcely be less propitious. While much has been written in recent days about a recovery on the equity markets, the facts of the matter remain that the markets in question have fallen back by about one-third in recent months. The effect for the Government of raising the much bruitedabout figure of £60 million to which I have referred would allow the Minister for Finance to take one penny off the standard rate of income tax. In fact that is being generous because when you apply that to our annual repayments of the national debt it means a reduction of less than one penny. I am quite happy that the workers would be prepared to pay that if they thought that the Sugar Company was being developed as a meaningful vehicle to generate wealth and create additional jobs in this economy. I believe that in the context of a national debt of £25 billion this only serves to highlight the folly of selling off the family silver.

At a recent IPC/FÁS seminar which I attended on 28 September 1990 the managing director of the Irish Sugar Company, Mr. Chris Comerford, characterised the trend in the company over the past decade as follows, and I quote him:

In this Company over the decade, at historical prices, almost £96 million was utilised in the purchase of fixed assets, while numbers employed declined steadily by over 2,000 or 57 per cent and large-scale losses moved downwards to be replaced by adequate profits at the end of that period. There were many factors in this particular instance; plant closures in sugar, closure or sale of unprofitable processed food businesses, early retirement schemes, voluntary and compulsory redundancy, serious in human terms and financially costly to the Company and significant recapitalisation by the State as shareholder. The net result, however, has been a business with the potential to survive and grow as against a business which could not survive in increasingly competitive conditions unless drastic rationalisation occurred and capital investment in the core activity kept going on a continuing basis.

There was a table accompanying that which shows the figures up to 1989 presented by the managing director of the Sugar Company which I would like circulated in the Official Report.

TABLE 5

Siúicre Éireann cpt. — Extracts from Annual Reports.

Year Ending

Purchase of Fixed Assets

Average Numbers Employed

Group Profit/ (Loss) after Extraordinary Items

£m

£m

1980

11.1

3,618

(11.1)

1981

9.4

3,378

(12.1)

1982

8.5

3,238

(22.4)

1983

4.8

2,864

(5.9)

1984

11.2

2,621

5.2

1985

7

2,522

(7)

1986

7.9

2,205

(8)

1987

11.8

1,855

9.2

1988

9.4

1,681

11.9

1989

14.7

1,556

14.9

Total

(95.8)

It does not include what has been described in the media this month as "the bumper profits of £22 million for the trading year that ended in September 1990". The Irish Times financial reporter, Brendan McGrath, noted, for example, on 7 February 1991 and I quote:

The group seems in sound financial shape for its imminent flotation on the stock market — a flotation that is expected to raise £60 million for the Exchequer — turnover rose from £215.6 million to £271.4 million. In other words, the restructuring that has taken place, culminating in last year's £22 million profits, has been with an eye to preparing ultimately for the stock market. Primarily it has been achieved in the usual way of Irish employers through substituting capital for labour on what is euphemistically referred to as rationalisation.

Another media economist, Mr. Colm Rapple, of the Evening Press, estimates that during the 1984-85 campaign it required one worker per 672 tonnes of beet processed. In the 1989-90 beet season 1,451,000 tonnnes of beet were processed or 1,700 tonnes per worker. He calculates that: at the 1989-90 wage rates the 1,165 employees got rid of since 1984-85 saved the Sugar Company, this year £22 million or, precisely, this year's profits. In other words he calculated that precisely the number of redundancies, 1,165 in the years mentioned, has generated this saving of £22 million this year to the Sugar Company. He goes on to outline that, and I quote:

The Company's labour savings/ profits were secured by its investment since 1984-85 of £56 million or £48,000 per job destroyed. At the bottom-line the Company's investments yielded a return last year of £20 million which is the increase of last year's profits over the £2 million of 1984-85. This is a rate of return of just 6 per cent on investment which must make the Company highly attractive to the stock market.

Commenting on the fact that the high price of sugar — which he likens to the gabelle, which I will not illustrate for the Minister as I am quite sure he knows what it refers to — is a hardship only for those on low incomes. He notes that: “the higher the price the Company can charge for sugar, the brighter its new corporate image will shine”. He further states:

These prospects, designed to make the stock market salivate, would be less disagreeable for the rest of us who are required to finance the operation by an unnecessarily high sugar price, if the 1,000 plus people made redundant since 1984 and the future 1,000 to go the same way by the year 2000 were engaged in other useful activities. Unfortunately that is not and will not be the case. All of them are, or will be, idle on the dole or emigrants.

That is the price which we have paid to put the Sugar Company into shape to make it attractive to the Stock Market. And for what? A paltry £60 million. We can find money to put into large foreign projects that are located here which are footloose when the pressure comes on, have never managed to establish linkages in this company and which will get up and pull out when it suits them. Yet here we have a company of which we all could have been proud where we did have Irish control and where we could direct its diversification and expansion programme, but the problem is, as Mr. Comerford said at that particular seminar, that he does not have the capital to do it. He claimed he has no ideological hang-up about the task. He would do the task, he did not care where the money came from but he needed it in order to diversify, to acquire related industries, to develop and generate more wealth and to create more jobs in this economy. That money should be provided; I am not making any blanket reference here to the question of privatisation; I am referring to the particular case of the Sugar Company.

Deputy Fitzpatrick referred to the submission in 1988, which is somewhat out of date now, from the then Irish Transport and General Workers' Union. I would like to refer to a clause in that submission which reads as follows:

The Government is spending vast amounts of money in subsidising industry through direct grants, subsidies or tax-breaks, and yet industrial employment is steadily falling each year. Direct foreign investment has slowed up internationally because of the world recession, and other countries have become more competitive in fighting for a share of this declining investment. Furthermore, such investment has low linkages with the domestic economy, as the vast outflows of repayments of profits and royalties and dividends indicate, and successful indigenous Irish companies prefer to buy companies abroad rather than diversify in Ireland. Therefore, the only alternative is to divert some of the vast amounts of State money and tax expenditures into resource-based indigenous industries, such as the Irish Sugar Company. There is a clear need for a major initiative on the whole food processing industry.

That statement deserves a serious reply from the Minister, and my only regret is that the authors of that document, the then leaders of the Irish Transport and General Workers' Union and the current leaders of SJPTU, did not bring it to the negotiating table when they were up in Dublin Castle locked in rooms with Mr. Pádraig Ó hUigín devising the new Programme for Economic and Social Progress and making believe for the TV cameras that the public ritual about the pay were the real negotiations. The real negotiations were those that went on, appropriately enough, in Dublin Castle. It is a great pity they did not bring that philosophy to the table and we would not be in the situation where we are proposing to sell off the family silver.

I agree with Deputy Connaughton; I would like to hear the manner of the flotation addressed. As I said, having regard to the experience in Jaguar and in Britoil, I have little belief in the golden share being successful in retaining control in Ireland. I have little confidence in that. I would like to hear from the Minister what plans he has. How precisely is the flotation in present unpropitious market conditions to be handled? I do not know what commitments the Taoiseach gave to Mr. Cahill when he visited the island during the summer but I presume our old friend Mr. Dermot Desmond will be invited back in to give us a hand again on how we should sell off this one. Certainly, he is doing very well out of all of this. I wish I was as happy that the workforce of the Irish Sugar Company will participate in this experiment to the same lucrative effect as the kind of financial institutions who have the inside track with the Government.

I find it difficult as a trade unionist to stomach the acquiescence of the trade union movement in this decision. There is no precedent in Britain or elsewhere where varying numbers of workers were casualties of the privatisation process. Of course, there are examples, and I put them on the record of the House in a different debate, of how well leading managers do in public companies that are privatised overnight virtually, though I am not denying Mr. Chris Comerford and his team fair remuneration for the job they do. They ought to be remunerated. It is arguable that the Devlin ceiling on key jobs in the public sector such as managing director of the Irish Sugar Company is unfair in terms of what the marketplace can command, but the facts show in Britain that there have been fantastic gains for the managers but not for the workers. I find it difficult to reconcile that with the ICTU's acquiescence on this. In their submission to Government on the question of privatisation, they said that Congress opposes (1) selling off all Government shares in public enterprises, (2) selling off a majority of the State's shares in public enterprise, (3) using money from the sale of a minority of shares to pay off part of the national debt, and (4) secret discussions with consultants and financers as inadequate procedures for specific privatisation proposals.

That was from the ICTU document. How it can be reconciled with their acquiescence in selling off one of our most successful, dynamic State companies beats me. Coming from where he comes from, the Minister knows better than anybody the long years of employment that were provided in Thurles by the Irish Sugar Company. We started off this discussion this afternoon based on the tragedy Deputy Paul Connaughton has brought forward, the ghost town that is left behind in his constituency, Tuam. The Sugar Company, and their founders, had this dimension for industrial development and the underpinning of the infrastructure——

The time has come to call the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Michael O'Kennedy, to reply.

I thank all the Deputies who contributed to this debate. Before I reply to the points raised during the debate, let me first restate what we are aiming to do in the Bill. We are proposing to remove the exclusive State control of the company so as to allow them to develop in a way which will be most beneficial to themselves, to the State, to their employees and to the suppliers. We are doing this in a way that will safeguard the Irish sugar industry and, at the same time, will yield a reasonable return to the State, namely the taxpayer, on its investment.

I acknowledge that the semi-State commercial sector has played a major role in the development of this economy. At a time of scarce capital resources and, indeed, over the last 60 years it has contributed greatly to economic developments and employment here. Many of these companies were created by the late Seán Lemass — I am glad Deputy Rabbitte referred to him — to provide capital and expertise in the Irish economy in a period of depression and understandable protection for infant industry. There was neither native capital nor native capacity. Their success in the intervening years is attributed to the skills and commitment of the workforce, management and suppliers.

The European and world markets have changed dramatically since then and Government policy reflects that change and is now promoting a dynamic, vigorous market-driven approach as distinct from a State-dependent strategy. Therefore, the decision to enable Siúicre Éireann as the first semi-State body to seek flotation on the Stock Exchange is an historic one.

And a mistaken one.

I am very pleased and privileged to be the first Minister of Government to seek the support of the Oireachtas for this dynamic approach. The company have proved their commercial capacity and the dramatic return to profits reflects a very healthy balance sheet indeed. It will enable Greencore plc to call on equity capital for their expansion programme in all areas of their activities and to seek out new partners and associates to compete effectively in the internal markets of Europe and, indeed, worldwide.

The workers, and the beet growers, have been key partners in the company's success, and the provisions of the Bill I am introducing, with the amendments I will introduce on Committee Stage, after consultations with the trade union interests and with the sugar beet growers, will ensure that their vital role will be respected and enhanced in the new competitive free market environment. It will enable Greencore plc to call on equity capital for its expansion programme in all areas of its activities and to seek out new partners and associates to compete effectively in the Internal Market of Europe and worldwide.

The workers and beet growers have been key partners in the company's success and the provisions of the Bill together with amendments which I will introduce on Committee Stage will ensure that their vital role will be respected and enhanced in the new competitive free market strategy.

Neither workers nor suppliers have anything to fear from the flotation. On the contrary, the overall strengthening of the financial base of the company from the flotation can only be to their advantage. Beet growers and employees will, of course, approach certain individual issues from a different perspective to that of the management of the company. There will always be negotiations on matters such as prices and wages and conditions of service. However, in a growing and profitable company, such as I expect Greencore to be, these matters should be capable of resolution without particular difficulty in the mutual interest of workers, management and suppliers.

Irish food companies will never be as big as the giant European and US companies. However, that does not mean that they cannot succeed in the Europe of the future. There will be plenty of room for effectively small companies, even though they will have to be large in Irish terms as at presently understood. The companies that succeed will be those that recognise that the different elements of the European market will no longer be self-contained but will be interacting with one another. In particular, it can be expected that customer tastes and preferences will begin to overflow country boundaries while prices will be increasingly affected by European rather than local considerations.

While the small scale of Irish food companies is a disadvantage, their ability to source high quality raw materials at a relatively low cost is a major advantage. That is one of the key elements in this proposal. Siúicre Éireann have, in recent years, displayed abilities which should stand them well in their drive to become a successful food company in the nineties. They have been successful with branded sugar products in Ireland while Odlums is a household name. Developing international brands is an expensive and difficult process. The larger Irish food companies are, I am sure, conscious that apart from the brand route which can be so difficult, there are substantial opportunities in Europe for trading directly with other companies.

Given the change in the business environment in which the company have to operate, they have, in their present status, achieved with the financial resources available to them the maximum that could reasonably be expected. They have performed excellently in recent years and, indeed, the results for the year ending 30 September 1990 which were published recently by Siúicre Éireann show continued improvement with operating profits rising to £26.7 million compared to £21.1 million the previous year. But, as has been pointed out by the consultants and further highlighted by the analysis of the ad hoc group, the company cannot remain in a static position if its long term commercial viability and growth are to be assured. The company have as they have shown by their recent performance, significant technical and managerial expertise which can be applied further in expansion into areas outside their existing core business. However, all of these attributes are of little value without the freedom to call upon commercial sources of finance when opportunities for growth and expansion present themselves. This Bill will afford the company that essential freedom by giving them access to equity from the capital markets by way of flotation on the Stock Exchange.

To reassure the employees of the company, we are, in addition to the protection of their interests already provided for in EC legislation, making specific provisions relating to their rights, in an amendment to the Bill, which I will, as already indicated, be moving on Committee Stage.

The protection of the sugar quota for all concerned, but in particular for the beet growers, is provided for in the special share which will prevent, in addition to other matters, the disposal of the controlling interest in Siúicre Éireann and their sugar quota.

By way of an amendment to the Bill on Committee Stage and following consultation with the beet growers and trade unions, I will make a provision whereby the special share may not be disposed of. I will say more about that later. It was never the intention that I, as Minister for Agriculture and Food would dispose of that on the market. It was simply to enable me to dispose of elements within it to either workers or beet growers, but if it is the wish of both that I hold on to it in total, I am prepared to put that provision into the Bill so that the Minister for Agriculture and Food cannot dispose of the special share.

Furthermore, the growers and employees as shareholders, will be given, an active interest in the company and will benefit from its expected development by way of income from dividends and the capital appreciation of shares.

The workers cannot buy shares. Where will they get the money to buy shares?

Is there a copy of the speech?

I wish to deal with the points raised by Deputy Deasy. There will be a copy of these points made available to the Deputy.

Deputy Deasy claimed that at one stage the number of employees in Siúicre Éireann cpt had dropped to a level of 1,200. This is not correct. In the last decade, it is true to say that because of rationalisation within the group average employment levels have been falling. The lowest average level of employment in that period was in 1989 when the figure was 1,556. This, in fact, rose in 1990 by 200 to 1,757.

Deputy Deasy, Deputy Rabbitte and a number of other Deputies also referred to the timing of the flotation and said that a higher valuation would have been achieved two years ago. I accept that ascribing the correct value to a company——

A Cheann Comhairle, I did not think a Member of the House could read out a speech without a copy of the speech being circulated.

Could I just tell the Deputy——

That is not a matter for the Chair.

I thought it was against the rules of the House.

I took these notes with a view to making the most precise response in the short time available to me. I was going to reply to another point made by the Deputy. I accept that ascribing the correct value to a company is a difficult exercise at the best of times; I say that to Deputy Rabbitte as well. The market will determine that.

But the market was never worse.

Given current international conditions, the attitude to Ireland is a key element in all of this. I have no doubt that this will be a successful flotation at this time, despite uncertain international circumstances. Deputy Deasy said this should have been done two years ago but at that time the company was only emerging from a period of heavy loss-making. Deputy Deasy would recognise that until such time as they had the opportunity to demonstrate their capacity to move into profitability, one could not expect a positive response from the market after sustained loss making.

In setting the date for flotation, account will be taken of the market sentiments. I wanted to have the opportunity to have a full debate on this in the Dáil with a view to moving to the market as soon as possible on the basis of the best advice available to the Sugar Company and to us.

A further point worth mentioning in the context of timing is the capacity of the market to absorb the flotation. The advice available to the Minister for finance and myself is that the Irish market can readily absorb the proposed flotation. Indeed, fund managers have been aware for some time of the intention to float this year and I expect that they will have earmarked some of their funds to take up shares in the holding company. There is still a reasonable flow of funds to Irish institutions and I expect that some of these funds will be made available for this new equity investment.

I have endeavoured in the short time available to deal with most of the points. I would again underline that this Government are committed to developing a new dynamic partnership. We are not removing the State role from companies set up under the late Seán Lemass which were a key element in a different period of our economy. We are injecting a new role——

A minority role.

——where the company, with control exercised by the Minister on behalf of the Legislature, will guarantee the workers' interests and the companies interests. As we move through the debate and, more importantly, as we go to the markets I hope I can demonstrate that we have the balance right and that the attitude to Ireland in the world markets, which is positive, will be reflected in the partnership which will emerge from this legislation being passed through the House.

I have no doubt it will; it will be grabbed up.

As it is now 7 o'clock I am required to put the following question in accordance with the order of the Dáil of this day: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand part of the main question".

The Dáil divided: Tá, 119; Níl, 23.

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Boylan, Andrew.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Calleary, Seán.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Fahey, Frank.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Flynn, Pádraig.
  • Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Haughey, Charles J.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Kitt, Tom.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lee, Pat.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Leonard, Jimmy.
  • Leyden, Terry.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Molloy, Robert.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Sheehan, Patrick J.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.
  • Yates, Ivan.

Níl

  • Byrne, Eric.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Garland, Roger.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Gregory, Tony.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Kemmy, Jim.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • O'Sullivan, Toddy.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy: Níl, Deputies McCartan and Howlin.
Question declared carried.

I declare the Bill to have been read a Second Time.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 5 April 1991.
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