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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Apr 1991

Vol. 407 No. 1

Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, 1990: Committee Stage (Resumed).

Debate resumed on amendment No. 14:
In page 3, lines 13 to 15, to delete subsection (1).

We were talking about the procedural rules for co-operatives. The co-operatives, when established, will be involved in streamlining the rules to run the co-operatives. The society can, of course, amend the rules under section 5 (3). I would like to reject the idea put forward by Deputy Gilmore that the co-operatives will be the new landlords. This is the kind of sensational language in which Deputy Gilmore occasionally, despite well balanced contributions, indulges. I am tired of indicating to people inside and outside this House that there is no question of ownership. The legislation before the House is not concerned with ownership. This has to be repeated ad nauseam because some bona fide objections were raised in the belief that this legislation had something to do with ownership.

I also want to emphasise the fact — I am sure, as a democrat, Deputy Gilmore would appreciate this — that the decisions of the co-operative societies will be taken by a 60 per cent majority. That is a sound democratic majority.

Deputy O'Sullivan also concerned himself with the rules. They are the ordinary rules of a society and it is important to have them. Once the co-operatives have been set up, the management committee will have an input into developing and streamlining the rules.

I would like to assure Deputy Barnes that the rules are procedural. She mentioned the trustees but as I indicated earlier in the debate, the trustees — facilitators — will be in place to oversee the setting up of the co-operatives. They will go out of office in a few months time. There will be two trustees plus five elected members on the management board. I have already indicated — and I think Deputy O'Sullivan agreed with this idea — that where State money is involved there is a financial responsibility and it is perfectly natural for trustees to see to that.

It is a pity we had to break when we did before lunch because it seemed we were getting into a very interesting discussion. I hope the Minister did not attempt to avail of the break in the debate to evade some of the issues we were raising. The section empowers the Minister effectively to make the rules for the committees of the various regional boards. It seems the Minister is prepared to talk about anything except the section. To give an example, he has just put up another smoke screen. He says the society may amend the rules and refers us to section 5 (3). Of course, that is not what section 5 (3) provides. It provides that the Minister or a society with the consent of the Minister, may revoke on or amend the rules of the society.

Exactly.

That is a different matter. The Minister's big presence still looms large in this section. We were attempting to extract some information from the Minister before we broke on what the rules will consist of. At one stage of the debate he stated as I heard him, although he subsequently denied it, that the rules would be borrowed from ICOS.

I am correcting that and I ask the Deputy to accept exactly what I said.

It is a question of interpretation and I am interpreting as I heard it. Of course, the Minister is entitled to put his interpretation on what he said. I have interpreted it the way I heard it.

Is the Deputy not accepting my word for what I said?

I always accept the Minister's word and no doubt the record of the House will record accurately what the Minister said. I will accept what is on record.

Yes, and I know what is on the record. The Deputy said that in the ordinary course of the setting up of a co-operative society it would be the members of the society who would draw up the rules. I indicated that in those circumstances the rules would be given to the people who were setting up the co-operative from ICOS. I was providing, as they are not registered with the friendly societies' people, that I would be performing the role vis-à-vis the fishery co-operatives that ICOS perform with regard to the other type of co-operative. I want to put that on record.

What I want to pursue is this——

I take it the Deputy accepts the Minister's statement in the matter.

Yes, I accept it.

It is a clear indication that it would not be his wish to mislead the House in any way in the matter.

I accept the Minister's bona fides.

This is not a court of law. We must accept each other's word as honourable men and women.

Yes, of course. In no way do I depart from that at all, but I am anxious to establish not so much the source of the rules as what the rules will contain. In the course of his contribution immediately before he break the Minister acknowledged that he did have discussions about the rules with some of the interests involved in this dispute and, as I understood him, he stated that the content of those discussions related to the various paragraphs contained in section 5 (2).

Correct.

I find it very difficult to accept that the Minister would have confined himself to reading out the headings contained in section 5 (2). I want to find out from the Minister what draft rules are being considered for these bodies. We need to know that before we can vote on a section of this Bill which will give the Minister wide-ranging powers to make the rules for these bodies. The amendment I have proposed would give the right to make the rules to the bodies themselves. If they are going to be co-operatives they should have the authority to draw up their own rules and have them submitted in the normal way for approval by the Registrar of Friendly Societies.

If the Minister is not prepared to accept my amendment, and I understand from his earlier contribution that he is not, he is saying he wants to reserve to himself the right to make the rules. If he is reserving that right to himself this House is entitled to know what those rules are, otherwise we are voting to give the Minister carte blanche to write whatever rules he wants. I do not think that is what we should be doing. We should know what the rules of these bodies are going to be because they are going to have very extensive functions indeed, including the right effectively to exclude people from fishing, the right to decide that an individual who wants to go out to fish will have to hold a share certificate, functions in relation to prosecution of people, functions in relation to raising money for fishery development and functions vis-à-vis the regional fisheries boards. Those functions will be quite extensive and we need to know more than the headings. The headings in section 5 (2) could be in for anything but they are not the rules. We need to know what the rules are going to be. For example, it is stated that they will deal with the membership and functions of a management committee, appointment, election, terms of office and so on, and we need to know what they are. They will deal with the question of membership and termination of ordinary and corporate membership of the society. We need to know what the rules are going to be.

For example, let us take the question of membership. Will it be the case that a rule of the society will be that anybody who applies will be granted membership? What will the criteria for membership be? Who will decide who is to be admitted to membership or be expelled from membership, if such should arise? They are the rules we need to know. The Minister at this stage has a fair idea what those rules are going to be because I understand he has discussed the detail of them with some of the interests in this dispute.

Not the detail.

I understand he has tossed the thing around with them and I would like him to put on the record of the House the rules he has in mind for these bodies, not just the headings we have here. I can understand it is probably not at the final stage, that there is not a final draft of the rules or anything like that, but if he is rejecting the idea of the societies drawing up their own rules, subject to approval by the Registrar of Friendly Societies, he should tell us the board outline of the rules he has in mind, otherwise we are voting on something in the dark.

The Minister said he wanted simple legislation going through the House, direct, clear cut and, above all, workable legislation that was acceptable to the angling community and tourists. We agree with him and support him all the way with regard to that type of legislation.

Sections such as section 5 absolutely exclude the possibility of effectiveness. I would see subsection (2) as the foundation stone of these co-operative societies. All of us who have been involved in committees and societies are aware of the hard lesson that, unless boundaries are definitely set and there is sharp definition of the rules, particularly with regard to the allowing and disallowing of membership, there can be great difficulties, possibly involving legal proceedings when a group or individual feels that in natural justice they have a case. The last thing the Minister wants is legal cases with regard to rulings. If the Minister could give an indication of the rules which will be drawn up as a result of this legislation, all of us here and the representatives of the anglers might be able to look with a more positive eye at this Bill. We are worried that unless we have some indication of the rules we could be accused as public representatives of not carrying out our responsibility to safeguard the rights of people who do not have a vote in this House and who rely on us to protect them. If the Minister would agree to indicate the rules he could allay some of the fears and answer some of the questions which have been raised.

The defining of membership could raise incredible difficulties. Section 5 (2) (d) states that the rules will apply to membership and termination of ordinary and corporate membership of the society. I have come late to the debate on this legislation. Perhaps other Members know to whom corporate membership would apply. I do not. Apart from the difficulty of defining the rights of individual members, there could be huge problems here. Could corporate membership be taken up by a multinational for its employees? Could it be taken up by a trade union, a tourism group or a hotel group? Could the corporate membership influence a co-operative society to such an extent that it would be a closed shop? We are conscious of the fact that 60 per cent of the membership of a co-operative society can make very definite decisions with regard to access to membership or exclusion from it. The Minister should indicate definite rules which will ensure that block voting, corporate membership and undue influence on the part of a group could not be used against the rights of a smaller group or an individual. We must have some indication that the rules will take these matters into consideration. We do not have any written proof that the rules of existing co-operative societies will obtain. We know that the Minister will make the rules, but we have no indication of his intentions in this sensitive area. There was tremendous difficulty in getting consensus in the first place. Many of the problems which are being raised could be cleared up and our fears removed with regard to the rules if the Minister would give us some information and justify his claims for this Bill.

This is probably one of the most sensitive parts of the debate. Subsection (6) provides that any person shall be entitled to a copy of the rules of a society on payment to the society of such fee as may be specified by the Minister. I would gladly give the Minister a couple of bob now if he would give us the rules.

The Deputy will be able to get them for 50p later on.

How many shares can we buy?

The Minister had long discussions with the people involved and it is a pity that since Second Stage the rules have not been framed, with some input by the interested parties. Then all of us would have some contribution to make. The headings governing the rules are not sufficient. We are being asked to pass legislation without knowing fully what that legislation entails with regard to the day-to-day running of the co-operative societies. The Minister will acknowledge that this is a sticking point with the angling groups. They want to study the rules and give their opinion as to what is workable. The mess has been made because of lack of consultation with outside groups. Somebody must have a copy of the rules. If not, valuable time has been wasted which should have been more productively used on behalf of the fishing groups, societies and clubs. The person who wants to go out with his daughter or son to fish on a Sunday afternoon will be excluded. I said this to the Minister before but he does not agree with me. The people will be bound by the rules and regulations of the society. The rules and regulations will be laid down by the society. People ask me whether they will be banned from fishing in the River Lee or in the Blackwater, but genuinely I do not know and I will not know until the rules and regulations are laid out before us. Perhaps the Minister will make the rules and regulations available to the House before Report Stage. At present, we are being asked to vote on something we do not know about.

I hope the people who go fishing on a Sunday will be as patient as the Deputies here, who have been fishing in this water for some time now. Naturally I am surprised that on my return we are still on this section.

It is still very murky water.

There are two specific amendments. We have to play them against what is in the legislation. Speculation and the eternal citation of the mood and feelings of people outside has not yet brought the catch the Deputy would like.

It affects people.

However if the Deputy feels that persistence is going to bring about the rules, there would be some point but the Chair does not think that the rules are going to come just now. However, I do not wish to preempt the Minister.

Perhaps we will get a promise in that regard.

As usual I will be brief and try to stick to the point at issue. I find it very difficult to enthuse over any of this section because as Deputy Gilmore said earlier, we on this side of the House would like to see this Bill finished at section 3. Be that as it may, we are now dealing with section 5 and more particularly with section 5 (1). Having listened to the debate and the Minister's response to the first round, if I may use that expression, I am afraid there is nothing in his reply which in any way alleviates my concern about this sub-clause, which clearly gives the Minister very sweeping powers. The Minister is basically asking us to buy a pig in a poke. Like Deputy O'Sullivan I wonder if the Minister would make the rules of the societies available on Report Stage and in which case we might accept them.

We have two alternatives, first to go down the road which I am proposing, which is simply to delete this subsection. That is probably not the ideal solution. Second, we could look at Deputy Gilmore's suggestion, which is also not quite ideal, and involves the Register of Friendly Societies. I feel the balance of advantage lies with Deputy Gilmore's amendment. I do not know whether this concludes the debate on my amendment but if it does I will withdraw my amendment No. 14.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 3, lines 13 to 15, to delete subsection (1) and substitute the following:

"(1) Each fishery co-operative society shall, before it is registered, draw up rules for the society and submit these rules for approval by the Registrar of Friendly Societies.".

As the Chair has rightly said we have been fishing in this pool for some time now. It is a pasttime that requires a great deal of patience but the unfortunate thing is that the Minister has not been taking the bait.

That is not very subtle.

If I could cast out one more time and suggest that if before Report Stage the Minister would be willing to issue us with the rules, or with draft rules or even guidelines for the rules, I would be happy to hold my amendment until then. However, if he is not prepared to do that I do not see any option but to press my amendment.

Deputy Gilmore in his initial contribution talked about rules in the context of excluding people from fishing. The rules have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that. As the Bill indicates, neither the Minister nor the rules have any competence in this regard at all. The co-operative, deciding by what I regard as a substantial majority, have the competence in that regard. My contention, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, is that this is a sound democratic approach to this problem. Neither have the rules anything to do with the membership fees for the co-operative. Deputy Gilmore referred to them as money collecting.

This again has nothing to do with the rules of the society because these are incorporated in the Bill itself. Another point, and this covers matters raised by other contributors as well, is that membership is open to all who purchase share certificates. There can be no exclusion of any citizen or any person living in Ireland. Deputy Gilmore rightly said that the final draft of the rules has not been settled and they will not be finally settled as the rules of the society until the societies themselves have an opportunity of looking at them, amending them and approving them.

How can that be? How can you have a society without rules?

That is precisely why I have rules. The rules will be taken to the management committee and their observations will be taken into account. I have other discussions scheduled with regard to the rules.

But you would have to have the rules.

Deputy Barnes suggested simple procedures and I agree with the Deputy that that is what we are looking for. The rules we are talking about are procedural rules. Deputy Barnes had a difficulty with the reference to corporate membership and I will tease that out. This is covered by section 8. The angling clubs can become corporate members and indicate the number of members from the club who want to be individual members of the co-operative. It is in accordance with the number of membership fees that the club will pay. With regard to the Deputy's reference to the corporate membership of multinationals, hotels and such institutions, that is also spelled out quite clearly in section 8 where such bodies are entitled to one particular membership certificate, so there will be no question of flooding the co-operative society by a big buy up by multinationals although I am sure that the co-operative societies themselves will be only too glad to get substantial sponsorship from whatever source for the laudable purposes of this Bill.

I agree with Deputy Gerry O'Sullivan that consultation is important. I can inform him that the rules are being worked on. They could not possibly be included in a Bill; it would be ridiculous to include here what would constitute a quorum for meetings and so on. I can inform him that anglers will be consulted.

Deputy Garland is opposing everything. I do not know what my approach should be to that. He says he is concerned about the overall aspect, but he lacked specifics.

Deputy Gilmore talked about Report Stage. I am afraid I am opposing the amendment as of now. I want to assure the House that there is no question, in these procedural rules, of any pitch on the part of the Minister for the Marine or on the part of my Department; they are purely procedural rules. I would ask the House to accept that. There is no question of buying a pig in a poke, or any other animal, vegetable or mineral——

——or fish. Is Deputy Gilmore withdrawing his amendment?

No, I am not.

Question put: "That the words proposed to be deleted stand."
The Committee divided: Tá, 73; Níl, 67.

  • Ahern, Bertie.
  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Brennan, Séamus.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Connolly, Ger.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Morley, P. J.
  • Nolan, M. J.
  • Noonan, Michael J. (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Dea, Willie.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Connor, John.
  • Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • De Rossa, Proinsias.
  • Doyle, Joe.
  • Dukes, Alan.
  • Durkan, Bernard.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flaherty, Mary.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Garland, Roger.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Higgins, Michael D.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Mitchell, Jim.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael. (Limerick East).
  • O'Keeffe, Jim.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Quinn, Ruairí.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
  • Yates, Ivan.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Byrne and McCartan.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

I move amendment No. 16:

In page 3, subsection (2) (f), lines 30 to 32, to delete ",including provision for payments to the appropriate regional board to promote the purposes of the society".

Section 5 (2) (f) provides a sort of throw away at the end of the subsection. Paragraph (f) states:

the establishment and management of a development fund for the receipt of payments to the society and the disbursement of moneys of the fund—

That part of the paragraph stands on its own——

— including provision for payments to the appropriate regional board to promote the purposes of the society;

I wish to have the latter part of paragraph (f) deleted because it pre-empts decisions. If it is appropriate to have these payments, then quite clearly it should come under a separate section. It is vague and it is in the wrong place. It is just slipped in there by the Minister. It is a very important issue on its own. I would like to hear what the Minister has to say; he may succeed in convincing me that he is right but I doubt it.

The purpose of section 5 (2) (f) is to promote the closest possible co-operation between the regional boards and the co-operative societies. It is very important for many reasons, including the healing of wounds and so on, that the legislation should be seen to promote that kind of co-operation. I cannot accept the amendment. It is important that co-operatives and boards should dovetail their efforts because they have the same objective, that is the development and protection of fisheries, and co-operation between them is very important indeed. Deputies should not forget — Deputy Garland should note this — that this is an enabling provision. There is no compulsion on the societies; they have freedom of action in the matter.

In the circumstances I will withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 17 in the name of Deputy Garland. Amendment No. 18 is an alternative. I propose therefore, with the agreement of the House, that for discussion purposes we take amendments Nos. 17 and 18 together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 17:

In page 3, lines 39 and 40, to delete subsection (3) and substitute the following:

"(3) The Minister with the consent of the society may revoke or amend the rules of the society.".

Subsection (3) states that the Minister or a society with the consent of the Minister may revoke or amend the rules of the society. You have to read that a few times before you come to grips with it. What that means is that the Minister, without the consent of the society, can revoke or amend the rules of the society, but the converse does not apply. If a society wish to revoke or amend the rules they must obtain the consent of the Minister. That is a typical example of the way this Bill is drafted. It is taking everything and giving nothing. There is a clear imbalance there and hence the need for an amendment.

There are two separate suggestions here, one from me and one from Deputy Gilmore. My amendment reads: "The Minister with the consent of the society may revoke or amend the rules of society.". If that amendment was accepted it would clearly exclude the Minister from having the right to amend or revoke the rules without the consent of the society. If we contrast that with Deputy Gilmore's amendment, the intention is similar. He, like myself, does not wish to give the exclusive right to the Minister to revoke and amend the rules. His amendment reads: "The society, with the consent of the Registrar of Friendly Societies, may revoke or amend the rules of the society.". I am sure Deputy Gilmore will do more justice to his amendment than I and, therefore, I will not refer to it further. I will listen to the debate and see which amendment appears to be the better.

My amendment follows a consistent line of thinking about co-operatives. I had hoped the Minister would agree to allow genuine co-opertives to be established, laying down their own rules, registered with the Registrar of Friendly Societies and so on, but that unfortunately, as we have learned from a couple of sections, is not to be the case. The Minister is to establish bodies which will represent his interests in the respective regional boards, but it is not clear how the relationship between these bodies and the regional boards will work. I am not optimistic that the Minister is going to accept my amendment. However, he said in an earlier contribution that the societies would have the right to amend the rules. He has taken upon himself the right to make the rules. He should have another look at the question of amending the rules. Once the rules are made the society should have some discretion in amending them. The provison the Minister has built into the Bill is that he may amend the rules without consultation with anybody or the society may amend them with the consent of the Minister.

We have had a very bad day on this Bill; we got nothing. We are fishing here since 10.30 this morning but we have caught nothing yet. This is an opportunity for the Minister to throw some little fish to the Opposition. I would ask him to give some serious consideration to this matter.

I cannot do any more to help the Deputy except to quote from the slogan of Clonliffe Harriers, nil desperandum.

In supporting the amendment I would ask the Minister to give us more information. Does the Registrar of Friendly Societies enter into this scene at all? It is important that we know that. The Minister has indicated already that the co-operatives will be groups with one aim, making money which would be disbursed among the fisheries boards to develop fisheries in their areas. Is the Registrar of Friendly Societies involved or is the Minister taking complete control? If we had the answer to that we would know where we are going. It was Deputy Gilmore who mentioned the Registrar of Friendly Societies. I have been involved with various groups which had to register with the Registrar of Friendly Societies who had strict control over them. If the Minister indicates that he is the sole arbitrator of anything that is done under this legislation, then we will know where we are going. We can call votes here all night but we will get nowhere. We should ascertain whether the Registrar of Friendly Societies is involved or if the Minister will adjudicate on everything and do everything his way.

I will not delay the House. I hope the Minister agrees with the thrust of these two amendments. I would remind him that earlier he indicated that he does not wish to take too much control and that he will undertake discussions and enter into agreements with the societies, but then subsection (3) comes down like a sledge-hammer. As Deputy Garland said, the Minister can revoke or amend the rules without the consent of the society but the converse does not apply. That is contrary to everything the Minister wishes will evolve from this Bill. It certainly does not tie in with the principal thrust of the rules of the Registrar of Friendly Societies. The Minister may not allow us to trawl in any productive way but if he even gave us a minnow in this regard we would be grateful for small mercies.

I liked the reference to trawling in relation to sea fisheries. I indicated in an earlier discussion with Deputy Gilmore that the co-operative societies under the Bill were being formed in accordance with the Fisheries Acts. The Registrar does not play a part arising from that position. We decided that we would rely on the establishment of the co-operatives through the Fisheries Acts rather than through the Registrar to make it more simple which, as all sides in the House agreed, should be the case. For that reason, amendment No. 18 is not acceptable, and I made a case in that regard when we discussed amendments Nos. 8 and 15. I have no wish to arrogate to the Minister — who happens to be myself at the moment — but as was said in ten years' time, more than likely, I will not be in office——

Ten years?

I intend to close the century. For that reason, on Report Stage I will look at Deputy Garland's proposal and I will incorporate something like "the Minister, with the consent of the society and the society, with the consent of the Minister" in the Bill.

I am very pleased with the Minister's response; he said he will look into this matter and I suppose that is all I can ask at this stage. If the matter is not dealt with on Report Stage I will put down an appropriate amendment; meanwhile I will withdraw amendment No. 17.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 18, not moved.

I move amendment No. 19:

In page 3, lines 41 to 43, to delete subsection (4).

I call this the greedy amendment because the Minister is giving himself everything in the Bill, the right to set up these societies, write the rules for them, change the rules and in subsection (4) he is also giving himself the right to nominate two members to the management committee of the society in addition to their elected members.

The Minister earlier referred to the principle of democracy but it is not very democratic if a society, through its corporate and individual members, elect a management committee and the Minister then appoints two additional members. I do not see why he should want to do that. What is he looking for? Does he want to have two spies at the meetings of the management committee to report back to him or does he want two further opportunites to offer consolation prizes to some of the many failed local election candidates who will be knocking on his door after 27 June? What is the purpose of this? It does not in any way add to the Bill or to the effectiveness of these societies to give the Minister the right to appoint two additional members. It is undemocratic and should be deleted.

We managed to keep this discussion at a fairly high level and I resent Deputy Gilmore's remarks about spies. Two people out of seven will be chosen for their interest in the protection and development of fisheries and they will represent the Minister on the management committee. It is unworthy of Deputy Gilmore and of the high standards of debate which he usually follows to use those words in this context.

With regard to consolation prizes for defeated candidates in local elections, I bet my bottom dollar that more members of my party will be elected to local authorities than members of The Workers' Party. However ambitious Deputy Gilmore is, that is a safe bet. In an earlier part of the debate I mentioned that these two people can play a useful role in looking after the taxpayers' contribution to the funds of the co-operative societies. Deputy O'Sullivan agreed with me earlier when I mentioned this——

I worry when I agree with the Minister.

That is not an inconsiderable factor in this and, for that reason,. I cannot even contemplate accepting this amendment. It is nit-picking of the worst form and I very much regret that Deputy Gilmore used the word "spies".

Did the Minister say there would be seven members on the committee?

That is right.

I did not hear the number seven mentioned so far today.

I mentioned it earlier.

Will there be seven members on the management committee?

Yes, as a result of our discussions with the angling community.

Some of the rules are now being brought forward.

The Deputy will hear more about the rules.

We thought we would get them all today but, unfortunately, we have to drag them out of the Minister this way. It is the first time I heard that there would be seven on the management committee. Is it seven people plus the two appointed by the Minister or is it seven including the two?

Seven members, including the two.

I will be brief because I already referred to this on an earlier section. As we all recognise, the Minister has tremendous control and discretion under this Bill, if we are to entrust the fair and autonomous running of these societies to elected people whom they trust. there is really no need for the Minister to appoint two others.

The Bill is framed in such a way that these societies are answerable to the Minister and in regard to the high qualities which I should like to believe will exist in the committees of management of these societies, I should like to think that they would all represent the taxpayer as well as the angling members of their societies.

I am even more convinced now about the justification for this amendment. To have two out of seven is totally out of proportion. That is an even higher proportion than the Taoiseach's nominees in the Seanad, and we do not know what the quorum for a meeting would be. One could certainly envisage a situation where the Minister's nominees could constitute a majority of those entitled to vote and make a decision at a meeting. The Minister has offered no real justification.

I was curious as to his observation about protecting the taxpayers' interest. It is certainly news to me that the societies would have access to public moneys. I understand that the purpose of the societies was to raise moneys from their own resources to contribute to the development of fisheries and to make payments to the regional boards. The Minister is saying that he is putting two people on to the management committees to protect the taxpayers' interests. Is he saying that the societies will have access to public funds, because that certainly would be a new dimension to this whole discussion? It is certainly news to me and I would like it cleared up. My amendment is certainly justifiable.

I appreciate the Chair's anxiety to proceed with this Bill but I would like to make one comment on that. I am surprised that Deputy Gilmore did not know about this. He usually reads Bills with care. Section 13 reads: "The Minister may, out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas, make payments to a society established under this Act for the purposes of the society." I am surprised the Deputy missed that. I publicly mentioned it on a number of occasions. I would advise Deputy Gilmore to listen very carefully to what I say in public because it is the distilled wisdom of centuries.

Deputy Gilmore does not have to challenge that.

I would hate the Minister to think badly of me, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I understood section 13, dealing with grants to the society, to mean the kind of administrative grant that would be made for the purposes of administering the society. Perhaps I took the Minister up wrongly but I understood from his reply to the amendment that there would be moneys available to the society out of public funds for fisheries development. If that is the case, it is an important dimension to this debate because what it does raise is the question of the relationship between these societies and the regional boards. My understanding is that the regional boards were established, under the 1980 Act, to manage and to administer the public investment in inland fisheries. If the Minister is saying that these societies will also have that function then he would need to clarify the respective roles of the societies and the regional boards. Are we to have a two headed monster in each region, on the one hand a society which has public money and is generating its own money and on the other the regional boards which are also responsible for public investment in inland fisheries?

That needs to be cleared up. My understanding of section 13 is that we were talking about smaller amounts of money being made available, perhaps from the national lottery or from the Minister's Department, for administrative purposes. I certainly did not understand that the societies would be a vehicle for public investment in inland fisheries. My understanding was that the regional boards were already the vehicle for that. For some time, there has been doubt over the future of the regional boards. If the societies are to develop in this way and become a vehicle for the managing of public funds in inland fisheries, what is the future of the regional boards to be? Looking some distance down the river it seems that there is a question mark over the future of the regional boards if an alternative body is to have a role in the disbursement and investment of public funds.

We will not get into the regional boards on this amendment. This amendment refers to the management committee of a society.

I want to congratulate Deputy Gilmore on how adroitly he got out of what he worked himself into by saying that he did not think there were any moneys at all. He did it very well. I had to admire his skill. He homed in on administration which is not mentioned at all here, and may the Lord protect us all from the expenditure of large sums of money on administration. We do not want that. We want money for the development of and the protection of our fisheries. I would feel exceptionally guilty if I thought that this House was going to vote moneys which would be swallowed by administration. The relationship between the regional boards and the co-operative societies is quite clearly defined in this Bill.

That is not so.

There was a question mark over the regional boards at one stage in the not too distant past — let us put it that way — and one of the first meetings I had on assuming this portfolio was with the regional boards when I assured them that they had my confidence in their statutory role and that they would have my full support. I put my money where my mouth was and backed that up by increased funding for them.

Question, "That the words proposed to be deleted stand" put and declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.

The next amendment is amendment No. 20 in the name of Deputy Garland. Amendment No. 21 is an alternative. I propose, therefore, with the agreement of the House that amendments Nos. 20 and 21 be taken together for discussion purposes.

I move amendment No. 20:

In page 4, subsection (6), lines 4 and 5, to delete "such fee as may be specified by the Minister" and substitute "a fee".

Subsection (6) states that any person shall be entitled to a copy of the rules of a society on payment to the society of such fee as may be specified by the Minister. We are getting down to the very small print here. The bureaucracy involved in something like this is horrendous. Will this ever arise in practice? It is just mind boggling. Any common sense society would send a copy of the rules to anyone who asked for it. They might, if they were very parsimonious, ask for the price of a stamp. However, the Minister is not satisfied with that. He has to poke into every nook and cranny in the administrative affairs of the society to the extent that the fee which the society may charge has to be specified by the Minister. That is just a nonsense. This point can best be dealt with by way of my amendment which provides that the society may charge a fee without any reference to the Minister. Deputy Gilmore's amendment is almost identical to my amendment and I ask the Minister to accept one or the other of them — I am indifferent as to which amendment he accepts. We should have some sense of proportion about this. It is a very trivial matter and I will not waste the time of the House in debating it further.

We have discussed the principle underlining this issue throughout the debate today and I do not have anything further to add to what has been said already. If the Minister is disposed towards making a concession on this point it would be welcomed.

I want to maintain what is in the Bill.

Is Deputy Garland pressing amendment No. 20?

It is not worth wasting the time of the House on this trivial point. I thought the Minister would be magnanimous and give in but he has not done so. In the circumstances I will withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Amendment No. 21 not moved.

I move amendment No. 22:

In page 4, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following subsection:

"(7) Any person shall be entitled to a list of shareholders of a society on payment to the society of a fee.".

The amendment proposes to add a further subsection to section 5. As it is a matter of public interest it is important that a list of the shareholders in a society should be available to the public. A list of the shareholders in a society should be made available by the society on request and the society should be entitled to receive a fee for this service. This is a minor point, and, perhaps, the Minister will take it on board.

It is envisaged that there will be a register of members which will be available for inspection by members. So far as I understand it in the case of co-operatives generally a list of shareholders who have voting rights is maintained. A register will be maintained and a member who wants to inspect it will be entitled to do so.

I support Deputy Garland's amendment. While the Minister has referred to the normal practice which obtains in co-operatives we are talking about co-operatives which will utilise public moneys in the development of fisheries. A list of the shareholders of such societies should be available to the public in general on payment of a fee. Deputy Garland has raised a very relevant point. I am surprised the Minister has not provided for this. The membership of these societies should be public knowledge. The Minister has said that anyone will be allowed join the societies and, therefore, any person should be entitled to know who the members of the society are.

I too support Deputy Garland's amendment. We need to ensure that societies, committees and clubs are proud of their membership and work and that members of the public have access to such information. The Minister indicated to Deputy Gilmore that public moneys will be utilised by these societies. Indeed, he will go so far as to appoint two members to ensure that taxpayers' money will be properly spent and that the societies will be answerable to the taxpayers. The proposal in Deputy Garland's amendment seems to be a follow-on from the accountability provision. If there is no accountability people will think such societies have restricted membership and will regard them as closed shops. As a woman I am aware that many organisations have restricted membership, particularly against women. This can give rise to all kinds of suspicions. The societies should be required to provide a list of shareholders to any person who makes application and pays a fee. I do not understand why the Minister cannot accept this amendment.

Like the previous speakers, I also support this amendment. The principle of access to information is one which has to be enshrined in legislation. I do not think the Minister's reply that the members of the society will have the right to inspect the register of members covers this requirement. We do not know what the rules of the society will be although the Minister said membership will be open to anyone who is prepared to pay the fee. I accept that this provision will be included in the rules.

We had some debate previously about the rights of an individual who wants to fish. If one of the societies passes by the 60 per cent majority a requirement that anybody who wants to fish on, say, the River Lee will have to hold a share certificate many people may be aggrieved by that decision. For example, people who have fished that river and other rivers for many years may feel aggrieved at the idea that the members of one of the societies could make a decision requiring them to become a member of the society and have a share certificate before they are allowed to fish. Those people should have the right to find out who the people who make such decisions are, who are the members of the society. They should have a right to know who the shareholders are.

There is also, of course, the question of public funds. If these bodies are going to have some control of public funds we should know who they are. I can certainly see situations arising where people will want to know who the corporate members of the societies are. This is critical information. Deputy Garland's amendment is an excellent one and I support it. I ask the Minister to look at it again as it would not in any way diminish the principle of the Bill as he sees it and what he is trying to achieve in the Bill. It would add a very important safeguard for the public which would not in any way detract from the Bill. It would extend the right to information beyond the members of a society. These may be people with an interest in fishing beyond the members of the society who would have a right to this information.

Deputy Barnes raised the question of accountability. As I mentioned, two trustees representing the Department of the Marine will have a role to play in regard to public moneys. Of course they would have a role also with regard to the general funds of the society as would the management committee elected by the members of the co-operative society. That and the availability of the register to all members is a sufficient transparency. Membership is open to all, and anybody who is a member can inspect the register. Part of the role of the trustees will be to look after the taxpayer. That is a sufficient transparency without the amendment which is before the House.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 5 put and declared carried.
NEW SECTION.
Amendment No. 23 not moved.
SECTION 6.

Amendments Nos. 24 and 25 may be discussed together as amendment No. 25 is an alternative to amendment No. 24. Separate decisions may be taken, of course, if required. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. 24:

In page 4, lines 18 and 19, to delete subsection (4) and substitute the following:

"(4) Vacancies amongst the elected members shall be filled in accordance with the rules of the society.".

I have had a great deal of correspondence about this provision and about vacancies among the elected members. The thrust of my thinking and of most of the representations I received was that the vacancies should be filled by unsuccessful candidates of the elections to those bodies. I mentioned already that the rules while still not finalised will incorporate more or less what Deputy Garland suggests in amendment No. 25. We will incorporate the system already operating in the regional boards. Where there is only one unsuccessful candidate of the election that person will be co-opted if he agrees and where there are two or more unsuccessful candidates the candidate with the most votes will be co-opted. If none of those conditions obtain, the committee will select somebody from the membership of the board. Vacancies will be filled from the elected members in accordance with the rules.

I do not object to the amendment but I have to again express the frustration of this side of the House at the phrase "in accordance with the rules of the society" since we do not know the rules. I am sure the Minister has those rules. We are trying to pass legislation without knowing the full facts and that is why every section has been opposed so far in this Bill.

The amendment is realistic and I have no qualms about it but the phrase "in accordance with the rules of the society" is completely unacceptable.

I agree with what Deputy O'Sullivan said. Now that the Minister has clarified what his amendment means I do not have any difficulty with it. What we are getting during the course of the debate is the Minister letting slip here and there what the rules of these societies will be.

I am not letting them slip. I am deliberately putting them on the record of the House.

We now know a couple of them. Perhaps it would be better if the Minister treated us with a bit more respect and told us up front what are his intentions with the rules of these societies, instead of, as we come to an item here, telling us in the context of an amendment what the rules are. It seems to me that there are people outside this House who know more about what the rules of these societies will be than the Members of the House. Its puts us in a very difficult position in trying to address amendments like this where the Minister says that the vacancies will be filled in accordance with the rules of the society, when we do not know what are the rules of the society.

I have just told the Deputy.

We know what this rule is now, or we think we know. It is only fair to us to give us the information. The Minister mentioned earlier the slow progress of this Bill.

I did not mention that at all.

I thought we were doing well.

Do not speak too soon, because——

That is obstructionist tactics.

——we have a long way to go.

The Deputy is threatening me. He is making me nervous.

I have not obstructed anything all day. I am not aware of anybody on this side of the House who has obstructed the Minister in any way, but——

Let us get back to amendment No. 24.

——I want to assure the Minister that——

I am getting nervous. I do not like threats.

——far from threatening him, I am simply drawing his attention to the fact that if he wants the Bill to make the kind of progress I am sure he wants it to make, he will have to come clean with us in this House and tell us what are his intentions for the rules of these societies. That is all I am saying. Given their absence, things will be made very difficult for us and we will have to get up in this House to ask questions about them and object to things which we might not object to if we knew the full story. Indeed, if we had been made aware earlier of what the Minister has just told us we might not even be having a debate on the amendment.

This debate is now degenerating into a farce. The Minister has the draft rules for these societies and, as Deputy Gilmore said, we are being treated with contempt. How can we be expected to operate in this environment? Perhaps the best way to expedite the matter and get rid of this difficulty would be to delete that subsection from the Bill because if this matter is to be included in the rules of societies we do not need to have it included in the Bill. Societies would not be precluded from including it in their rules if it were to be left out of the Bill.

The Minister has accepted the concept behind my amendment, the purpose of which is to ensure democracy. It is only fair and reasonable that vacancies should be filled by those who have the support of the shareholders but who did not receive enough support to be elected first time round. Some maverick or outsider should not be appointed to the management committee. I do not care which way the Minister goes about it as long as the principle is accepted. Perhaps the best way to deal with this matter would be to delete the subsection altogether.

Members on this side of the House were never more aware of the slogan, "knowledge is power," in so far as that we are in a limbo or a no man's land. Indeed, the reason we have taken up so much time debating some sections is that we are of the view that we have to oppose them. The Minister indicated on an earlier section, when he turned down our amendments, that it would not be appropriate to outline the rules or guidelines in legislation but now and again, like a conjuror, he draws from his sleeve one of the rules. I would ask him in all sincerity to outline to Members on this side of the House, who have a right to know, what the rules will be for all present and future members of societies.

We should remember that this legislation is not just being introduced for those groups who are in touch with the Minister but also to ensure the proper administration and development of inland fisheries. This matter must be considered in that context. This side of the House should be given some indication of what the rules will be. I ask the Minister again, now that we have been given another flash of a rule, to give us the benefit of his wisdom with regard to the rules to ensure that we do not continue to shadow box given that we have a responsibility to all anglers and future anglers in this country.

I would like to draw attention to the fact that we are not dealing with the rules at large at present but rather a specific rule, the substance of which I have given to the House. I have also told the House that the rules are in draft and I have my doubts about the relevance of an across the board speech about the rules in general but in this case I have given the specific draft of the rule in order to indicate that the amendment put down by Deputy Garland is substantively the same as my own. I accept that this amendment makes reference to "the next person in line per previous ballot" whereas our experience of the regional boards is that we have to go further than the next person to the person after that and then make provision for a situation where neither of those two people is available. I feel very nervous because Deputy Gilmore threatened me.

The Minister should withdraw that remark.

He stated that I had complained about slow progress which I had not. We are doing very well. We are putting a Bill together and I think it will be a good Bill in the end.

The Minister is becoming delirious.

When he said that we had not yet gone very far and shook his gorey locks at me I got a little nervous but I did not complain. I fail to understand Deputy Garland whose amendment, although manqué is substantively the same as my own. The anglers' representatives made these points to me and what they suggested to me forms the substance of my own amendment. I ask the House to accept the fact that the rules are only in draft and they would not want me to come into the House with a draft. They would savage me if it was changed later.

We would not do that.

As Deputy Barnes said, this is legislation for the future. In this case I outlined the specifics of how vacancies will be filled. I think I have treated the House with nothing but respect, not contempt, in this regard. Deputy Barnes said that there was a flash of a rule but I want to assure her that I am not a flasher vis-à-vis rules or anything else.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendment No. 25 not moved.
Section 6, as amended, agreed to.
NEW SECTION.
Amendment No. 26 not moved.
SECTION 7.

I move amendment No. 27:

In page 4, subsection (1) (b), line 25,, to delete "1991" and substitute "of its establishment".

This is a drafting amendment and I will tell the House why I tabled it. It is designed to cover circumstances of any co-operative society that might be set up subsequent to the current year. I do not want to be tied by the current year for purposes of development and protection of fisheries. In 1992 either due to lack of development or sufficient development in one section or other, it might be necessary to divide some of the regions. I want to leave that open.

Amendment agreed to.
Section 7, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 8.

We come to section 8 and amendment No. 28 in the name of Deputy Garland. I observe that amendment No. 29 is related and I am suggesting, therefore, that we discuss amendments Nos. 28 and 29 together, if that is satisfactory. Agreed.

I move amendment No. 28:

In page 4, lines 42 to 44, and in page 5, lines 1 to 3, to delete subsection (3), and substitute the following:

"(3) In considering whether to grant recognition to an angling club or other body for the purpose of subsection (1) of this section or fixing the amount of a fee to be paid by a corporate member under that subsection particular regard shall be had by the co-operatives to the outlay of the body concerned on work of fishery development and public benefit in the area in which the society operates.".

Section 8 deals with corporate membership of societies. We are now into a very tricky area because generally speaking the rules of clubs and societies do not allow corporate membership and one person one vote is the order of the day. One would have to have very serious reservations about the whole principle of section 8 and I will oppose it very strongly because it has got all sorts of connotations. There is a big power bloc there which could be used quite unfairly. I do not think we need much imagination to figure out the various ways in which that could be done.

Nevertheless, in so far as we have to bear with section 8, it can be improved by substituting subsection (3). The new subsection (3) states:

"(3) In considering whether to grant recognition to an angling club or other body for the purpose of subsection (1) of this section or fixing the amount of a fee to be paid by a corporate member under that subsection particular regard shall be had by the co-operatives to the outlay of the body concerned on work of fishery development and public benefit in the area in which the society operates.".

In my view it is very definitely superior to the subsection in the Bill and I await the Minister's comments.

I too will be opposing this section because it incorporates a number of very dangerous precedents. First, we have "any angling club or other body" that, as we have established, could be anything, a company, a hotel group, anything. Even a political party may become a corporate member of a society in accordance with the rules of the society. That is fine as far as it goes, but then we are told that a corporate member can nominate for ordinary membership a number of people, and the number is unspecified. Perhaps in the Minister's gradual unveiling of the rules of these societies he might like to tell us what the rules of the society will say about the number of ordinary members who will be allowed admission to these societies without fee under this arrangement of corporate membership.

The third element is that a corporate member might not have to pay a fee at all or may have to pay a fee which is much reduced in relation to the number of members it will be nominating for membership because it will be able to take into account the outlay it has had on fisheries development. Will a large angling club, or a number of large angling clubs, be able to say, "We have done X work already on that river worth £10,000; give us £10,000 worth of share certificates in return for that"? Can they nominate for ordinary membership that number of people? Will a corporate member be able to nominate for ordinary membership more ordinary members that it has members of its club? Will an angling club or other body, as it is defined, who by virtue of their outlay are entitled to 150 share certificate and have only 100 members, be entitled to nominate 150 ordinary members to the society? A very undemocratic principle is being built in here. This section is a recipe for giving control of these societies to large clubs. All the experience we have in any area where control of a public facility is given to a club has shown that over time the club takes unto themselves more and more control of that facility to a point where very often the general public are excluded.

In another section of the Bill there is a vehicle whereby that may be done because the public may be expressly excluded from using the rivers and lakes by a 60 per cent vote of these members of the society. We will see large clubs getting large corporate membership and putting in a large number of ordinary members with voting rights. In some cases they may not have to pay the equivalent of what those members would normally pay for share certificates because it will be offset by the outlay and, effectively, they will be given control of the rivers and lakes in that area. That is a very dangerous principle.

The principles of democracy that have applied generally in this State have been based on one person one vote. We know to our cost what happened when in a neighbouring state that principle was departed from and voting entitlement was based on rate-paying capacity or whatever. We are building into legislation voting entitlements based on the collective strength of a club. It is a very dangerous precedent because, as we have learned in the course of the day, we are now dealing with bodies who will not only have the right to decide who may fish, they will have the right to decide who is prosecuted and they will have control over public funds. We need to reflect very carefully on this section and its implications.

I also oppose this section, its lack of democracy and, as Deputy Gilmore said, of the concept of one person one vote. There could be abuse of membership, particularly corporate membership. Section 8 (1) provides that any angling club or other body may become a corporate member, but we have not defined what the other body is. By becoming a corporate body, they presumably could be treated in a different way from the ordinary fee-paying individual member. For instance, a corporate member shall be entitled to nominate without fee one ordinary member of the society. I presume that a hard working, industrious member of a club will not have that right. There is an inbuilt privilege here. It is within the bounds of possibility that groups with special rights assigned to them could begin to take over a club or a society.

Section 8 (3) states:

In considering whether to grant recognition to an angling club or other body for the purpose of subsection (1) of this section or fixing the amount of a fee to be paid by a corporate member under that subsection particular regard shall be had to the outlay of the body concerned on work of public benefit in the area in which the society operates.

There is an inbuilt privilege or the possibility of discrimination in so far as another body which is well adjusted for takeover could become a corporate member and could afford outlay on work of public benefit which other bodies could not. If other clubs or individuals cannot show the same level of outlay on work of public benefit in the area in which the society operates, will they find themselves in a less privileged position? The wording indicates that they will.

This section reeks of the opportunity to discriminate by giving special privileges to better off, better organised corporate members who can appoint another member without a fee. They will gather influence and with their extra clout they will justify extra privileges by their outlay on the development of the society, in contrast to other members and to their detriment. We are attempting to show that there is huge leeway here for discrimination, privilege and élitism where ordinary angling members could find themselves at a huge disadvantage.

There is no doubt that the whole structure of this section has all the hallmarks of setting up an élitist sinecure controlling position, totally removed from the even handed, democratic administration of the societies that one would expect in a fairly organised distribution of the privileges of the amenities of fisheries in our lakes and rivers. I am surprised that a section has been tendered in this format. It is poorly drafted and I do not understand what is in the mind of the Minister and the Government in putting it forward on this basis. The wording of subsection (3) is rather strange. It states that a particular regard shall be had to the outlay of the body concerned on work of public benfit.

I hesitate to interrupt Deputy Taylor but the Chair would much prefer if we would address our remarks to the amendments before us, Nos. 28 and 29. We can deal with the section, as amended, later, but the amendments must first be addressed and disposed of. Amendment No. 28 is now under discussion.

I thought we were discussing amendments Nos. 28 and 29.

That is what I have been talking about.

So far the Deputy has been addressing the section.

No, I am talking about the Minister's amendment where he proposes to delete the word "work" and substitute "fisheries development".

On a point of information, I am not deleting the word "work".

That is right. The Minister is proposing to insert the words "fisheries development" before the word "work". Particular regard shall be had to the outlay on this work. Does it follow that regard is not to be had to other matters which might be of equal importance? Perhaps there would be a society of people who might not be able to afford to plough in substantial amounts of money but might have quite a lot to contribute to fisheries in their area which would not involve substantial outlay on fishery development work. Why this concentration on a heavy financial input? Why should particular regard be paid to this heavy financial expenditure while no other consideration is mentioned? The whole thing smacks of élitism and is totally unacceptable.

Discretion as to the numbers of ordinary members is left totally in the hands of the society, thereby stitching in on a permanent basis the rights of those they favour. How are we to know how many members they will fairly accept and that fair and reasonable consideration will be given to applications from clubs, groupings or societies who are not in a position to put up very substantial sums? Is any appeals procedure provided for? Is there to be any openness about this procedure? Will reasons have to be given for these important decisions or will this be an operation behind closed doors where nobody will know why one club was accepted and another rejected? Fisheries rights have become a matter of privilege over the years.

It is distressing to say the least that in the year 1991 we find that old regimen of privilege being continued, being stitched into the system from now on and into the foreseeable future. One would have thought that in 1991 the time had come to burst the whole thing wide open to ordinary people, the ordinary citizens, even if they did not have much money to join expensive clubs or to contribute huge sums for fisheries development but who nonetheless have the sport and interest in fishing very much at heart and who put in tremendous effort building it up. There are other kinds of effort than financial effort which these people put into fisheries.

In his amendment, the Minister pays no particular regard to their efforts and no provision is made for them. I would have thought that in setting out the section the Minister would have made provision for them. I would have a greater degree of sympathy for his position if he had worded his amendment to say something like this: that in considering the application and the number of seats to be allocated to the club or society, regard shall be had to the following matters under paragraphs (1), (2), (3), (4) and (5). Indeed, an outlay on fisheries work could well be one of those items but it would be only one of the paragraphs and there should have been quite a list of items and not just that one. If the Minister had phrased his amendment in that way it would have given a fairer presentation to pretentions of bringing in a democratic regime on the organisations of societies.

However, the whole thing reeks of élitism and a behind closed doors operation. There is no provision for upfront public explanations or giving reasons for decisions. It is just preserving and locking in a continuation of the system for the vested interests already there, and which this legislation, introduced in 1991 by this Coalition Government of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats who represent those interests, will ensure continues henceforth. No breath of fresh air is being allowed to penetrate the system.

My colleague has said that we will be opposing this section. Deputy Garland's amendment has a great degree of common sense. However, in my view the amendment is flawed in that it does not go far enough, but I would not fault it altogether on that because it is a good amendment.

We should be taking the opportunity, as the Legislature, to address the serious imbalance, the serious apartheid, which takes place within various sporting clubs. I am talking about apartheid of the sexes, clubs where women are excluded. I would like to see corporate entities being required in their articles of association to have an equality clause that they would not exclude women. In amendment No. 28, Deputy Garland suggests that public benefit in the area in which the society operates should be a consideration in granting recognition to an angling club. But it should also be a consideration that members should be free to join any corporate entity or as an individual member, irrespective of sex. It may seem rather strange for me to say but if half of the population were black and the other half white, or if half the population were Muslim and half were Catholic, and if the black or Muslim sections were as unrepresented and treated as women are in places such as golf clubs and presumably in fisheries clubs — there would be legislation in this House to prevent it.

I would not say that, the Deputy's imagination is running away with him.

It is time we started thinking that way. The Minister has a golden opportunity following on this amendment to require these corporate entities to have in their articles of association that membership shall be open without distinction of sex.

So it is.

No, it is not a requirement.

Membership is open to all citizens and the people of Northern Ireland.

So are all the jobs in the public service, but no woman is a secretary of a Government Department and only one of the 99 assistant secretaries is a woman. It is the same sort of thing.

It is not.

I am arguing that there should be a requirement in the articles of association that membership is open to all. It is time we forced all these sporting organisations to open up to women and to make it very clear that all organisations are open to both sexes and that nobody can be barred from participation because of their sex.

There is an opportunity to put down a market in this legislation. We should clear away the cobwebs and do something which would be a signal to all other clubs who continue in their smug attitude of apartheid against women.

Most of the points I wished to raise have been very adequately dealt with other speakers. However, I would like to put on record again the grave dangers in this section. Who makes the decision to grant recognition to an angling club or other body? Who assesses and makes a ruling on the nature and extent of work of public benefit? These are very important points. We do not know who will make these decisions.

In section 8 recognition will be granted to a club in accordance with the "rules". The rules crop up all the time, but we are trying to legislate in a void because we do not know the impact these rules will have on corporate or other type of membership. I would like to hear the Minister's reply to the points that have been made and particularly to the points raised by Deputy Taylor who not only outlined the dangers in the section but the privilege that could be taken from people who have worked over a long number of years for the development of fisheries. Some people have worked extremely hard without compensation because they felt it was in their own interest to work for the development of fisheries in our lakes and rivers. Let me repeat that without seeing the rules we are frustrated in trying to legislate.

The House will have observed that the amendment in my name is more or less en rapport with that in the name of Deputy Garland. We seem to be approaching each other in that I seem to be growing greener by the moment. I am sure Deputy Garland will appreciate that.

It is not quite the same thing as public benefit.

The words "fishery development" are included in Deputy Garland's amendment and in my amendment I am asking that we insert "fisheries development" before "work".

First, with regard to corporate membership, as indicated earlier in the debate, corporate membership could be of two kinds: that of an angling club and second, that of some other institution that was anxious to make a contribution either to the development of angling in the area, its protection or both.

There is no question of a power bloc and I have so indicated already in the course of this debate. During my discussions with anglers' groups — many of whom had diametrically opposed views with regard to both development and protection — all, in unison, agreed that there are whole areas of the country, of the business community — hotels, guesthouses, public houses — who gain substantially from angling tourism and that they were making no contribution. They appealed to me to include something in the Bill that would enable such people make a contribution if they were willing to do so.

I foresaw the dangers mentioned by some Deputies, that people with fat wallets might be able to buy a whole lot of share certificates, turning all the co-operative societies into monopolies for them and I took steps in the Bill to prevent that happening. If the people who made a big fuss about this read the Bill carefully they would have have seen that no matter how much money that type of corporate member pays, that member will receive just one share certificate. I would be glad if they gave £1,000 willingly for a purpose they themselves claim is a desirable and honourable one. There will be one share certificate available to the ordinary citizen for the price of six packets of cigarettes or seven pints of stout; that is all the voting power or privilege they will enjoy. I am surprised that escaped the notice of many of the people who contributed to this debate.

The second point that surprised me is this: angling clubs have been lauded by Members of this House, both Members who participated in this debate and those who participated in the Second Stage debate, by the members of the clubs themselves, which is not surprising and by various groups representing anglers. One point consistently made to me was that the work they did hitherto did not receive recognition by the State or by anybody else. Knowing what many of them did, I accept that the efforts they put into angling development and protection over the years were not fully appreciated. It was for that reason, at the request of those people right across the board, I inserted the provision in the Bill about angling clubs. This is an important point in view of what Deputy Gilmore raised: they will get membership only with name and address by paying £12 for a share certificate; no more, that is all they will receive. There is no question of getting more membership certificates than actual members. Membership of the co-operative societies is open to all — I want to insist on that. There is no élitism, no exclusivity. Anybody in Ireland — indeed a partitionist objection was made to the word "Ireland" which I rejected — anybody in Ireland is entitled to purchase a share certificate for the price of six packets of cigarettes and become a full member with the same privileges, powers, duties, rights and obligations as somebody from a hotel, company — and I hope there will be lots of them — who will contribute say, £1,000, £2,000 or £3,000 to the development and protection of fisheries in their areas. There is no lack of democracy whatsoever. I reject the suggestion that there is. It will be one person, one vote; no discrimination, no special position for anybody.

I will pardon Deputy Taylor for coming in at the end of the debate and for having such a superficial view of this Bill. When in doubt blame the draftsman is an old ploy in this House I have witnessed on many occasions. Deputy Taylor talked about ploughing in money. I have already indicated to the House that, as far as corporate membership is concerned, in the case of angling clubs, it will be one share certificate for each person nominated from their club provided they purchase a share certificate. For the other membership they will recieve one membership certificate for whatever amount of money they contribute, no matter how large. There is no élitism; it is more than democratic. There are no privileges; there is no regimen of privilege. Deputy Taylor has some effrontery to come in and accuse me or my party of élitism in this regard. There is no regimen of privilege here. There is simply the development of a co-operative society in the various areas to develop a rich, natural resource for our citizens and for tourist anglers who visit the country.

It is easy and emotive to talk about expensive clubs. It is not an expensive clubs to have to pay £1 per month for membership of a co-operative society. Deputy Taylor used emotive words like élitism, privilege, reeks of this and reeks of that. He talked about closed doors; when he had finished speaking it sounded like a cabal. Every speaker is entitled to his imagination but there was no substance in what Deputy Taylor had to say.

Deputy Gay Mitchell introduced something which I found very interesting, particularly knowing that the spokesperson for Fine Gael is a doughty warrior in the field into which he entered. I congratulate him on the principle that fools rush in where angels fear to tread. There is not even a scintilla of suspicion, or a mimesis of a scintilla of a suspicion, that there would be any discrimination against women in co-operative societies. There is no apartheid. The only division is between the angler and his fish and he must lure the fish by bait and so on to him.

I was not talking about co-operative societies. I was talking about sporting clubs generally.

I know for a fact what is the gist in angling clubs—I was a member, not a very distinguished member — but a member of the Grey-stones Ridge Angling Club, no doubt known to the spokesperson for Fine Gael, when competition after competition was won by a woman; she was the important member as far as competitive sea angling was concerned. I have heard of other clubs who have refused on the basis of sex to admit citizens of this country. I do not condone it. I hope the practice will never enter our angling clubs. I know it will not because, from the time that Our Lord chose fishermen for his most faithful followers to the present time, fishermen have been more than civilised in that respect.

That is a very sensitive point for me, regarding women and the Church.

We have engaged in quite a lot of general discussion on this section. It would be well for us to reflect on the question of where this section emanated from. This section is the core of the deal struck between the Minister and the objectors to the rod licences. The Minister had an enormous problem. There was a rod licence which was not acceptable, huge public controversy about it and much political pressure to get rid of it. On the one hand when the Minister sat down to do his deal he wanted somebody to pay money for inland fisheries. The clubs on the other hand were not willing to pay the money.

That is not true.

What we have here is a formula whereby the Minister will be able to get money for inland fisheries and clubs will not have to pay it because it will be offset by the outlay on fisheries development work. On top of that, clubs have the added attraction of getting control of these societies because they will be able to nominate large numbers of ordinary members as a result of their corporate membership. Who will end up paying? We will have other types of corporate members such as hotel owners. The Minister has, perhaps inadvertently, given us a misdirection in relation to whether the other corporate members will hold share certificates or nominate ordinary members as I understand it. Let us take the case of a hotel. A hotel could buy any number of share certificates but it will only be entitled to nominate one ordinary member to the society.

They will only get one certificate.

Here is the catch. In practice angling clubs around Lough Corrib will not have to pay for membership of this society because they will be able to claim that the outlay incurred in fisheries development is such as to give them the share certificates without paying for them. This will be decided by the society which, in turn, will be controlled by the clubs who are claiming this arrangement of offsetting the charges for their share certificates. A German tourist staying in a hotel will not have to pay because the hotel, having purchased the share certificate, will pass it on and allow the tourist staying there for the weekend or whatever to use the hotel's share certificate to fish on Lough Corrib. Who will have to pay? The ordinary person who wants to fish on that lake and who is not a member of a club will end up paying for the share certificates and the right to fish because, inevitably, the society will decide by a 60 per cent vote that only those who hold share certificates will be permitted to fish those waters. We talked earlier about whether those bodies were misnamed as co-operatives: they are not co-operatives, they are cartels. None of us are in any way diminishing the role of angling clubs——

The Deputy should make up his mind.

——but we have to call this what it is, a very clumsey compromise, if I may say so, worked out between the Minister and the rod licence objectors in order to solve the rod licence problem. The effect of it is free fishing for members of angling clubs and free fishing for tourists staying in hotels who have, in turn, purchased share certificates——

——but charged fishing for individuals who want to enjoy the pleasures of the lake. That is what this comes down to. The individual who goes out ultimately will have no effective say in how these societies are run. Clubs with corporate membership entitled to nominate 100 ordinary members, or whatever the number might be are, in effect, the people who will control the societies. They are the people who will elect the management committee and who will make the decisions as to how public funds are disbursed and how the society will be run. This section is a recipe which puts the individual who is not a member of an angling club at a great disadvantage irrespective of whether that individual is a man or woman.

May I direct the attention of the House to the fact that we are discussing the amendment in the name of Deputy Garland. As yet we have not come to a general discussion on the section.

The Minister who is a fisherman like myself, will be aware that to succeed at fishing one needs the right fly and one has to strike at the right time. Now we have an opportunity to strike and say that nine years off the 21st century we are putting down a marker. I accept, as he does, knowing something about fresh water fishing, that it is one of the sports where women get an opportunity to participate but that is not the point. The point is that I have been asking the Minister to put down a marker, by including in the articles of association a requirement that persons who contribute to the company will not be discriminated against and that there will be no question of a distinction being made on the basis of sex. The reason I suggested he put that down was that it would be a marker for other sports where women are excluded. We should take an opportunity, when debating matters in this House, to put this on the agenda.

I am sure the Minister knows the difference between a sonnagham and a gillaroo, one operates in the deep and one operates in the shallow water. I am afraid the Minister is operating in the shallow here because he is not prepared to listen to argument to use this Bill to put down a marker in the sporting area generally. I accept what the Minister has said about fisherwomen or whatever the correct title would be. An opportunity could be taken here, and in other legislation going through the House, to get rid of this attitude in society that somehow women are second class citizens.

Could we dispose of the amendments and then any matter in the section to which we want to address ourselves can be done. Is Deputy Garland pressing his amendment?

Having listened to the debate the section is so fatally flawed that it is hardly worth amending. I will be opposing the section but I will withdraw my amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

I move amendment No. 29:

In page 5, subsection (3), line 2, before "work" to insert "fisheries development".

Amendment agreed to.
Question proposed: "That section 8, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Minister when replying to the debate on the amendment made some adverse comment about my coming into the debate rather late. I do not know whether I am supposed to apologise for that or whether I am in order as a Member of this House to come in to participate in a debate on a Bill at any stage. It is not as though we are over-burdened, as I look around the House, by Members of his own party or the Progressive Democrats making any contribution even at this late stage. I do not think it is appropriate for the Minister to make an implied criticism of me because I chose to come in and make what contribution I can in a measured way to a small aspect of the Bill while paying tribute to the Minister, and my other colleagues of all parties, who have been doing trojan work on it. We cannot all contribute to every Bill all the time and one does what one can. I do not think it should be a matter for adverse comment when that is done in the best interests of the Bill and of fishing in the country.

The Minister has indicated that any citizen of Ireland can pay his £12 and get his certificate but from my reading of the Bill I do not see that that is the case. I do not see any right given to any and every citizen to pay £12 and become a direct member of the co-operative. I would like the Minister to direct me to the particular section that gives that right. I see reference to joining a club and thereby being nominated but I do not see in section 7 or any other section — as I have said I may be missing it — that any citizen of Ireland or anywhere else can pay £12 and become a direct member of the co-operative society.

The Minister stated earlier that his intention here is that effort towards fisheries development and so on would be rewarded. That is a laudable sentiment but it is not what the section says. The section does not use the word "effort"; it uses a very different word, the word "outlay". Outlay and effort have two completely different meanings. The word the Minister used in talking to us is a better word than the one he has put in the section. Effort could imply that people would do anti-pollution work in the rivers, cleaning them up or all sorts of things that might involve work and effort but not outlay. Outlay means money, perhaps substantial sums, out of the pocket.

I do not know whether the Minister would be prepared even at this late stage to consider some variation there. I would ask him to consider substituting for the word "outlay" the words "contribution, financial or otherwise," thereby bringing into play in the section the very thing the Minister spoke of, namely, effort. It would be encompassed by that wording, rather than by the narrow wording, "outlay." I would ask the Minister to consider that wording. It would certainly be of some help in the section. I am not saying it would make it right but it would be of major help, and it would be appreciated if the Minister would consider it.

Another aspect of the section troubles me. The Minister seems to have implied in his earlier address to the House that the qualification of having particular regard to the outlay of the body engaged in fishery development work of public benefit is confined to the corporate members who are not angling clubs. I do not know whether that is what he is telling the House is the position under the section but it is not my reading of it. My reading of it is that if an angling club go to the society seeking recognition —"in considering whether to grant recognition to an angling club" is the wording used in subsection (3) — regard will be had to the outlay of the club on fishery development work of public benefit. I will have something to say about the words "public benefit" in a minute.

I agree that there never was any problem about being able to fish and there certainly will not be under this provision, but if a club of more modest circumstances and whose members are of more modest means were to go to the society seeking recognition what would happen? The society would be obliged — it is not a question of them being entitled — under the law to have particular regard to the outlay of that angling club on fishery development of public benefit. It does not refer to potential outlay or outlay at some future date. The wording clearly refers to outlay incurred in the past. That very likely would make matters extremely difficult for a club coming to the society seeking recognition because the society would be obligated to say: "This is laid down for us by law and section 8 of the governing Act says that we must pay particular regard to the outlay you have put into fishery development work of public benefit in the area". I would say as an aside that no work in this area would be work for public benefit because the members of the public at large have no rights there at all. This is very unsatisfactory.

Unlike Deputy Mitchell and the Minister I am not a fishing person. I have gone on holidays many times to the west of Ireland for the sake of the scenery, in fishing areas admittedly, although I have never fished there. I became friendly with and spoke to many local people living in these areas and the views I have on this, as often happens, are formed from some of those conversations. I distinctly recall being very friendly with a man who lived in a very small and modest cottage over-looking a very attractive fishery which was fished repeatedly by English, French, Germans, Italians and so on. Late one evening when we were talking — this stuck in my mind although it was many a long year ago — he commented on the fact that it was strange that all these people were able to fish in the area while he was not and never has been able to afford to fish there. I am looking at the Bill to see if that position will be radically changed.

I am his man.

I am not satisfied that you are, and I cannot see that the legislation will change anything for him because he is a person of modest means. I stand by the comments I made regarding the unsatisfactory and elitist nature of what is proposed here. Would the Minister consider the variation I suggested? It would be of some benefit although I would still be unhappy about the basic structure of it. I am unhappy that a club going to the society for the first time seeking recognition would have to run the gauntlet of particular regard having to be paid to those substantial expenditures.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 59.

  • Ahern, Dermot.
  • Ahern, Michael.
  • Andrews, David.
  • Aylward, Liam.
  • Barrett, Michael.
  • Brady, Gerard.
  • Brady, Vincent.
  • Brennan, Mattie.
  • Briscoe, Ben.
  • Browne, John (Wexford).
  • Burke, Raphael P.
  • Callely, Ivor.
  • Clohessy, Peadar.
  • Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
  • Cowen, Brian.
  • Cullimore, Séamus.
  • Daly, Brendan.
  • Davern, Noel.
  • Dempsey, Noel.
  • Dennehy, John.
  • de Valera, Síle.
  • Ellis, John.
  • Fahey, Jackie.
  • Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
  • Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
  • Flood, Chris.
  • Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
  • Harney, Mary.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Hilliard, Colm.
  • Hyland, Liam.
  • Jacob, Joe.
  • Kelly, Laurence.
  • Kenneally, Brendan.
  • Kirk, Séamus.
  • Kitt, Michael P.
  • Lawlor, Liam.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lyons, Denis.
  • Martin, Micheál.
  • McCreevy, Charlie.
  • McDaid, Jim.
  • McEllistrim, Tom.
  • Morley, P.J.
  • Nolan, M.J.
  • Noonan, Michael J.
  • (Limerick West).
  • O'Connell, John.
  • O'Donoghue, John.
  • O'Hanlon, Rory.
  • O'Keeffe, Ned.
  • O'Kennedy, Michael.
  • O'Leary, John.
  • O'Malley, Desmond J.
  • O'Rourke, Mary.
  • O'Toole, Martin Joe.
  • Power, Seán.
  • Quill, Máirín.
  • Reynolds, Albert.
  • Roche, Dick.
  • Smith, Michael.
  • Stafford, John.
  • Treacy, Noel.
  • Tunney, Jim.
  • Wallace, Dan.
  • Wallace, Mary.
  • Walsh, Joe.
  • Wilson, John P.
  • Woods, Michael.
  • Wyse, Pearse.

Níl

  • Ahearn, Therese.
  • Allen, Bernard.
  • Barnes, Monica.
  • Belton, Louis J.
  • Bradford, Paul.
  • Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
  • Bruton, Richard.
  • Byrne, Eric.
  • Connaughton, Paul.
  • Cotter, Bill.
  • Creed, Michael.
  • Crowley, Frank.
  • Currie, Austin.
  • D'Arcy, Michael.
  • Deasy, Austin.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Enright, Thomas W.
  • Farrelly, John V.
  • Fennell, Nuala.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • Finucane, Michael.
  • FitzGerald, Garret.
  • Flanagan, Charles.
  • Garland, Roger.
  • Gilmore, Eamon.
  • Harte, Paddy.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hogan, Philip.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kavanagh, Liam.
  • Barrett, Seán.
  • Barry, Peter.
  • Bell, Michael.
  • Kenny, Enda.
  • Lowry, Michael.
  • McCartan, Pat.
  • McCormack, Pádraic.
  • McGahon, Brendan.
  • McGinley, Dinny.
  • Mac Giolla, Tomás.
  • McGrath, Paul.
  • Mitchell, Gay.
  • Moynihan, Michael.
  • Nealon, Ted.
  • Noonan, Michael.
  • (Limerick East).
  • O'Brien, Fergus.
  • O'Shea, Brian.
  • O'Sullivan, Gerry.
  • Owen, Nora.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Rabbitte, Pat.
  • Reynolds, Gerry.
  • Ryan, Seán.
  • Shatter, Alan.
  • Sherlock, Joe.
  • Spring, Dick.
  • Stagg, Emmet.
  • Taylor, Mervyn.
  • Timmins, Godfrey.
Tellers: Tá, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy; Níl, Deputies Flanagan and G. O'Sullivan.
Question declared carried.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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