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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 May 1991

Vol. 408 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Local Government Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

The following motion was moved by the Minister for the Environment on Tuesday 7 May 1991:
That the Bill be now read a Second Time.
Debate resumed on the following amendment:
To delete all words after "That" and substitute the following:
having regard to:
the clear intention of the Government to provide by law for the gerrymandering of electoral areas in the County Boroughs of Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway; and
the undemocratic and incompetent arrangements proposed by the Government for the debating of the Bill; and
the failure of the Bill to deal effectively with the crisis in local services, including housing, roads and local financing;
Dáil Éireann declines to give a Second Reading to the Bill."
—(Deputy Howlin.)

I was speaking about opportunities which we lost in the area of local government reform in the seventies. I was doing this not in a sterile way but in trying to illustrate that there is a capacity in the local government system, with a little bit of wit and a good deal of political goodwill, to change the system dramatically without necessarily involving any major changes in funding or involving any major changes in the roles played by the various elements in Government. I was referring to the White Paper of 1972 which dealt with the finances of local government and saying that that White Paper was a fine document but one which, like so many other good documents, got caught up in the maw of political debate, and at the end of the day nothing was done about it.

I was dealing with chapter 10 and the controversial issue of central Government grants to local government, which is a problem to this day. We all know that the system of funding local government is less satisfactory than we would have desired it to be, and that inadequate as the funds are which transfer from central to local government, they transfer with so many strings attached that the capacity of any local authority to make creative use of those funds is entirely negated. Although schemes are set up by this House and arrangements are made by the Minister, local authorities have to wait until the money trickles down and have to get involved in administrative arrangements between central and local government which wastes the resources of the State. The chapter concluded that something needed to be done about grants, that we needed to operate a system of block allocations within which there would be a great deal of freedom for the local authorities.

In section 9 the Minister is equipping himself with powers to devolve functions on the local authorities. I hope he will provide the finance for that too.

Alternative taxation systems were considered and it is interesting that the whole issue of poll tax was examined and was ruled out administratively and politically. Local income tax, local sales tax and site valuation ratings were all examined and rejected. The chapter concluded that the Government were forced inextricably to the conclusion that there is really very little latitude to change the financial structures of local authorities.

The balance of the White Paper dealt, broadly speaking, with efficiency issues. Some changes were proposed, including a move to programme budgeting in the local authority areas. We moved at that time to programme budgeting in those areas and I do not know if it was an improvement. Many members of local authorities would suggest that it was a distinct disimprovement.

While the 1971 White Paper on reorganisation contained points with which many could quibble, points which I publicly criticised, with the benefit of hindsight I think that White Paper and its companion on finance represented the best shot we have ever had at restructuring local government at a critical period and putting it into a state which would allow us to work for the benefit of the country. Both documents deserve calm and informed debate. By and large calm and informed debate is the last thing they received. There was a characteristic knee-jerk reaction in many local authorities. Councillors of all parties, including our own, were responsible for this. The Opposition parties during the course of the general election campaign, which quickly caught up with the debate, had a destructive field day rejecting every proposal out of hand without proposing suitable alternatives. This collective irresponsibility condemned local government to two decades in the wilderness. I do not suggest that there was anything unusual about that. Unfortunately that is the way politics are fought in this country. When one is in Opposition it is easy to propose everything and to destroy things put forward by Government and when one is in Government it is difficult to understand one's action in Opposition let alone the actions of those who oppose one.

There was a more thoughtful response from one quarter, the Institute of Public Administration. The Institute, then at the height of its prestige, looked at the issue of local government reform and what we needed in essence from our local government. A committee was appointed under the chairmanship of Professor Basil Chubb charged with the task of preparing a response to the White Paper. Major figures in the area of local government, including Tom Barrington, Des Roche, Michael Flannery, then county manager of Wicklow County Council, and Richard Haslan, then county manager in Limerick, and now a lecturer in public administration in Cork, were on that committee. Many of the people on the committee at that time had played a distinguished part in the evolution of thought on public administration here. The committee's report, while not an official document, represents a major contribution to the debate and its recommendations which I have dubbed elsewhere as being the father of the latest advisory committee report, makes interesting reading. There is a continuity between the propositions made by that committee and the latest advisory committee report. The advisory committee report can be traced directly to the Bill before us. The Bill has roots going a long way back. The issues that are dealt with in the Bill have been well debated and it is not, as Deputy Bruton suggested here last night, premature to move those issues at this stage into law.

The local government document issued by that committee opened with one of the best discussions on the general principles of local government to be found anywhere. These included proposals that the scope of local government should be progressively broadened to cover the widest possible range of public services with a view to decentralising government. Some commentators in this House made the valid point last night and earlier today that in a very small country there is still an extraordinary degree of centralisation, an extraordinary distance between the people and Government. It is extraordinary that as other states are moving towards decentralisation, towards a better relationship between the state and people, this State has been inextricably locked into a colonial system of public administration which really belongs to a 19th century colonial power. They suggested that one of the major reasons for progressively broadening local government was to afford the opportunity for real decentralisation of government.

The second argument the committee put forward was that decentralisation would facilitate access to government by the people for information and the redress of grievances. Every public representative here knows the abnormal pattern of complaint behaviour, where anybody who has a complaint against any public body will seek out councillors, TDs, Senators, town commissioners and so on, and lay the complaint before them. Everybody in this House knows that the arrangements that pertain here are abnormal and that although handling of constituency cases is a fundamental part of any democratic system, it goes to extremes in this case. Deputies know that the multi-seat constituencies mean that not only does one party compete with another but Deputies of the same party compete with each other for the constituency service task. We know that this is wasteful, that it wastes the time of the public sector agencies who must, as Deputy Barry Desmond pointed out in this House in a paper he circulated not too many years ago, handle the same issue time and time again from different representatives. It is also demeaning to the people to have to go and knock on a series of doors to get their rights.

In 1981 I did an analysis of the case loads of 115 TDs serving in this House. Some of the results were published in the paper "The High Cost of Complaining Irish Style" and in they were quite shocking. It was my first real introduction to politics. I was a civil servant, a mere humble academic at the time. It struck me forcibly time and again as I spoke with Fine Gael, Labour and Fianna Fáil backbenchers that public representatives were on a treadmill and many of them had talents which they wanted to use in this House as legislators but they could not do so as they would be judged on their capacity to deliver a letter about housing, a drain or a pothole. We all know that is the truth. The reason we have that abnormality is that our system of public administration is centralised and removed from the public. Ministers of various Governments have made efforts to redress this during the past ten to 15 years but we have a long way to go. One way of giving the people a proper service and properly representing them is by decentralising Government and pushing functions away from the centre. We have ready made bodies who can handle those functions and they are the local authorities. As I said, this was suggested as far back as 1982.

The third reason put forward for being conscious of the need for changes in public administration at local level was citizen participation. The point has been made already by a number of other Deputies that our local government structure is essentially a Victorian or late 19th century administrative system. The attitudes which informed public debate in the late 19th century are different from the attitudes which inform public debate in the 20th century. People want to have their views represented. This is done on one level in the Dáil and at another in the local authorities but the views of a wide range of voluntary bodies do not find an expression in local authorities.

I attended a public meeting last night to discuss a proposal that a road be constructed through the Glen of the Downs, an abhorrent proposal. The meeting was attended by the representatives of various local groups and by people who have a very good track record in journalism and on environmental issues. The question was asked, why did the local authority not come to talk to them about that matter? It was pointed out by one person that there is no way that this can be done. Decisions are handed down and local authorities do not encourage participation. As we are all aware, there is a huge network of voluntary organisations, specialists and enthusiastic people with knowledge and experience, yet the system does not encourage participation in the decision-making process.

The fourth point made was it would enhance the capability and performance of local government as a force for economic, social, environmental and cultural development. Those words were written in 1971 and they are as crisp, as clear and as relevant today as they were when they were first put on paper. The document went on to argue that "present day conditions demand not fewer and larger authorities but representative authorities". The Minister is arming himself with the power to transfer functions to the local authorities and to broaden the range of local authorities not to narrow it. I take issue with Deputy Yates who made reference to a secret agenda. He may know something that I do not but I do not see a secret agenda in this.

A three tier system was suggested with an apparatus for decision-making at regional, county and district level. Such a proposal is also made in this Bill. It has been proposed that we take the first step to create a relevant system of local government which would take us through the rest of this century and on into the 21st century. The Minister's proposals are in line with what was proposed in the document, More Local Government. It proposed a new system which should make provision for associating nominees of voluntary bodies with electoral bodies at one level of authority. This is not yet visible in the Minister's proposals but I suggest it could be achieved very easily under the structures he has proposed.

The document went on to suggest that the system should be devised with a view to aiming at a uniform delivery of services and flexibility. Finally, it argued that in the new local government system strong emphasis should be laid on local autonomy, on a partnership between local authorities and central Departments rather than on domiance of local authorities by central Departments. If we examine section 9 of the Bill we will see that the Minister has proposed a provision which will allow us to do precisely that.

Having set out the principles, the report went on to examine, once again, the structure and operations of the system. A three tier structure, with a fourth element, community involvement, was one of the major proposals of the document. It is a great tragedy that that proposal was never discussed and that the document has been on the shelf gathering dust for 20 years. It was proposed that at community level there should be community councils representing voluntary organisations and the people at large and that these bodies would not be formal statutory decision-making bodies. However, they would play an important role in communications between the people and the statutory agencies. It was also suggested that they be allowed to nominate a member to the district councils, the district councils being the first sub-county level of statutory local government.

I have seen something akin to this operating in Austria. The city of Vienna has city, State and district governments with some unpronounceable German titles and provision has been made for local involvement. For example, planning matters are first discussed at this level and ideas can be thrashed out before the formal decision-making process is entered into. People there feel that they have an input in those things which affect them.

I could give two extraordinary examples in my own constituency to highlight the need for public involvement. A proposal to locate a factory in the village of Kilcoole was misunderstood.

The statutory agencies did not explain to the local community what they had in mind. As far back as November 1989, I asked both the council and the Industrial Development Authority to explain what they had in mind to the local community who feared that they would have another chemical plant on their doorstep which would present them with problems. Out of this debate and misunderstanding litigation followed and, ultimately, the factory was lost without a rational debate having been held or the people of the village having been treated like mature adults with a capacity to sit down and understand complex matters and see them through. There was a breakdown in communications, not on the part of the people, who had a right to defend their interests, but rather on the part of the statutory agencies and the proposers.

Another problem has arisen with regard to the proposal to locate an interpretative centre and a visitor's centre at Luggala. The people of Roundwood were not consulted. However, the Office of Public Works do not have a mechanism to consult with people but they are going to have to learn to evolve such mechanisms. If we had accepted what was proposed in the document, More Local Government, in 1971 we would not now be facing these problems but rather would have a clear set of communication channels between the public and the decision-making bodies.

The document also suggested that the first level of statutory formal decision-making bodies should be district councils which would correspond roughly with the existing county electoral areas. Typically, these would be centred in towns and would cover not just the town but the town hinterland. Perhaps this is what Deputy Yates was referring to when he questioned the delay in holding urban elections. I am not sure if his fear has any basis but I would make the point that we need to review the boundaries of urban authorities. As we are all aware, towns, in particular those on the east coast, have grown very dramatically in recent times. Deputy Yates instanced the case of the town of Bray which, thankfully, is booming and expanding and very rapidly. However, there are many attendant problems and part of its hinterland is neither in the town nor the county. Something needs to be done about towns like Bray. The relationship between the town hinterland and the town needs to be represented better in local government.

Had we taken the idea of district councils based on the existing urban councils and built on it in 1971, we would have resolved many of the problems that towns, particularly in the greater Dublin area, have had in the last ten years of growth and development. Membership of these district councils would be made up in the majority of cases by members elected through the ordinary local government process, as I have mentioned. In the position that was first put forward there was also a suggestion that district councils who were below the statutory level would be able to nominate members. Would that not be sensible for us at least to consider now?

Under the proposals county councils were to retain their central position and the report recommended that no substantial changes should be made in the status or functions of the county councils, including county borough corporations. County councils would remain the planning and executing authorities for the major local government services for housing, roads, sanitary services and so on. The document went on to suggest that county councils would in time become the administrative centres for a broad range of public services and a system of committees on the analogy of a VEC or county committee of agriculture would provide a linkage between the services. An executive board comprising the county manager and county officers of the services concerned would attend meetings of the county council and the county manager would be given general responsibility for the co-ordination of the public services in his area.

Part VII of the Bill contains miscellaneous provisions. Somebody indicated tonight a mistrust of the concept of special committees and joint committees. The concept of special committees and joint committees need not be negative. It can be used as was proposed in the document More Local Government. It can be used progressively to improve the delivery of services, to create a more efficient and more effective local government. That is surely what we all want to achieve.

Above the county level the committee envisage a third level of local government, the regional authorities. Here the report recommended that formal statutory recognition be accorded to the regional pattern which has emerged from the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963. This would mean giving statutory authority, powers and duties to the regional development organisations as a necessary step towards establishing regional centres for four categories of essential functions (a) strategic major planning, (b) economic development, (c) co-ordination of public service generally and (d) provision of certain services.

The Minister is providing in this Bill a framework in which regional development organisations can be recreated with a statutory purpose and a statutory function. We all know that the RDOs which were set up in the sixties played a very positive role but that ultimately, because successive Governments in which all parties in this House have participated failed to give them a statutory basis, they withered away and became little more than talking shops. They had no statutory functions. They could not recruit their own staff. They could not decide their own budgets. They were dependent on the charity of the donating councils. They were dependent very much on the enthusiasm of the members, and no matter how much enthusiasm they could muster, after 20 years of sticking it out in the wilderness, the enthusiasm was on the wane, the RDOs withered away and now they are gone. Abolishing the RDOs letting them slip was a mistake. The mistake was not letting them slip; it was in not increasing them, not building on them, not giving them a statutory basis. That argument had been around for 20 years, and I am pleased beyond my capacity to express it, that the Minister in this Bill has taken powers to create new RDOs on a statutory basis.

On the structural side, the report recommended special arrangements for the Dublin area which are not unlike the proposals in this Bill. It suggested that the district county regional structure would accommodate the needs of the county boroughs and the Gaeltachtaí.

On the operation side, the report was critical in the extreme of the system of control of local government by central Government. I mentioned that one of the members of the Radcliffe-Maud Committee when preparing the great report on local government reorganisation in Britain in the sixties visited Ireland and found that beyond a doubt the Irish system of local government was the most restrained, restricted and controlled system of local government in the world. In a document I have which looks at the control mechanisms which are available on an administrative basis through the statutory agencies in this State, the one thing that is dramatic and jumps off the page is that since the State was founded we have used every bit of administrative ingenuity at central Government level to expand the control mechanisms on local government.

We give hundreds of millions of pounds to State-sponsored bodies. We are quite prepared to hand out millions of pounds to voluntary agencies. Last week we had a debate here on Cheeverstown House; we handed out £20 million to a private charity. We have nothing like the levels of controls on those agencies, charities, private operations, State bodies, that we operate on local authorities. It is extraordinary that we have established a rigorous, wide scale system of checks and controls on local government which has its roots in the 19th century.

Many of the central controlling attitudes which pertain in the central Government departments to local government are throw-backs to former age. The attitudes really are the folk memory in the Custom House of the 19th century. They went in with bricks and mortar. There is a centralist attitude there —aprés moi le deluge; after me the deluge; that is the attitude central Government administrative bodies take to local government. We are not prepared to give 5p to a local authority without some string attached to it. Not only is that fundamentally stupid because it prevents people who might be able to do something relevant to local needs do it but it is fundamentally stupid because all the controls that go with those strings cost money.

Local engineers do work which is then inspected by engineers from the Department of the Environment, and even though a plan has been discussed at local level, it has to be discussed yet again by administrators in the Department of the Environment, then it crosses over to the place where all wisdom resides, the Department of Finance. Somebody who could not find the location of the project on a map says, "gilly-gilly" and it is then put in train.

Consider a VEC building a school. Take the 12 or 13 different steps they have to go through with the Department of Education. That adds not just tens of thousands of pounds but, over the years, millions of pounds to the cost of projects does not improve the projects one whit. This structure was based on 19th century attitudes and it exists to this day.

The document More Local Government saw the control system as having four fundamental and pernicious ingredients. The first is a large, very detailed corpus of law on the Constitution, powers, duties, finance, staff etc., of the local authorities; second, detailed financial controls which seem to have no relevance to the 20th century; third, administrative controls which have even less relevance and, finally, controls by courts and by quasi-judicial bodies.

The consolidation of existing law was proposed in 1971. Much of the existing body of law was seen as expendable. It was suggested in the document that the ultra vires doctrine in particular be swept away and replaced by a comprehensive enabling statute empowering the local authorities to act in wide terms. That is precisely what the Minister, Deputy Flynn, is proposing in this Bill. It is the first time I have seen the concept of ultra vires mentioned in a statute before this House, it is the first time I have ever heard anybody giving legal expression to the necessity to abolish the concept of ultra vires and restating in a positive way the fundamental powers of the local authorities.

The document suggests that financial and administrative controls should be liberalised. In general, the report recommends that the relationship between central Government and local government should be one of partnership rather than the relationship between controller and the controlled. Anybody reading the report of the Advisory Committee on Local Government Reorganisation and Reform which was produced in December 1990 and released in March 1991 will be struck by its close relationship with the document More Local Government. Anybody who takes the Bill we are examining today and then goes back to the advisory committee report and then puts the two side by side with More Local Government will see that for the first time we are moving in the direction that the specialist committee of the IPA suggested in 1971.

Through 1972 and 1973 politics displaced reform, expediency dethroned logic. The White Papers presented an ideal opportunity to political parties to pillory the Government. I am not saying that had we been in Opposition we would have been any better. That is the reality. We all score points off each other and the good things which should be done are left undone. The 1973 general election called a halt to the reform movement. The new Government realised as well as everybody else the plight into which local government was sliding, but they were trapped in a sense by their own rhetoric of a few months earlier and that rhetoric rendered them paralysed. I remember this well because I was then an official in the Department of Finance. Honest efforts were made to work out how to extricate ourselves from this mess. Many valid solutions had already been rejected. U-turns could not be done and those solutions could not be represented. A rather pathetic little document was produced by the then Minister for Local Government in 1973 which rejected the proposals put forward in the White Paper, as the Government were quite entitled to do. It ignored the recommendation in the IPA report which I regard as less sensible and put nothing effective in place of all these recommendations.

When the Coalition Government of 1973-77 took office the ball was at their feet in regard to local government reform and they kicked the ball to touch. Increasingly during that period the crisis in local government mounted and displaced concern for the structural side of the problem. The obvious thing was to implement at least some of the proposals in the 1972 White Paper or bring in some of the proposals put forward in the five excellent reports which had been produced by the interdepartmental committee on local government finance and taxation.

The Government instead got involved in tinkering with local finances. First they made an honest effort to address some of the problems. They introduced the housing subsidy paid to local authorities to help tackle the problem of growing rents. Then they became involved in the systematic removal of health charges from the local rates. These were at best stop gap measures. The Government of the day were obviously not armed with prescience and could not possibly know we were entering a priod of hyper inflation which would particularly affect local government. Local government is more sensitive to inflation than virtually any other activity in the State because of the high labour content of services.

Aware of the growing storm, the Government commissioned the ESRI to produce yet another report. That report, the Copeland Walsh report, returned to very familiar ground. The problems in the valuation system of local finance were outlined, the impact of remissions and exemptions was addressed and yet another rating system in the reform mode emerged as the recommended system for local finance, with a nod in the direction of the possibility at some stage of a local income tax.

The Government were now in a corner. In September 1976 the Cabinet took a momentous step and decided that the rates would have to go; they would be phased out over a number of years. The decision to abolish rates is interesting because it is inextricably linked with the concept of local government reform. The popular conception is that the decision emerged from the Fianna Fáil election manifesto of 1977. This is not true. The idea had been around for some time. I understand it was publicly discussed for the first time as far back as 1973 when the late Deputy George Colley suggested in an RTE programme that since the rates could not be reformed they would have to go.

By the 1977 general election the three major parties were agreed that the rates were to go. The only difference related to how soon. Early in 1977 the Government took the first step and started to shift the burden of domestic rates from the householder to the shoulders of the Minister for Finance, the Exchequer and ultimately the taxpayer. I say this in no recriminatory sense. I want to establish with clarity once and for all that if abolishing the rates was a fallacy and a fundamental error, it was a fundamental error into which we all walked with our eyes wide open.

The next major step in local government was the Local Government (Financial Provisions) Act, 1978, which transferred the burden of rates from councils to the Minister for Finance and, in effect, to the general taxpayer. This Act introduced in sections 10 and 11 additional swinging controls on local government. The provisions put into effect with a striking vengeance the philosophy that he who pays the piper calls the tune. The Taoiseach of the day, Jack Lynch, said that ultimately if the central Government taxpayer is to pay for local government services the central Government taxpayer will have to call the tune.

By 1978 when the domestic rates were abolished the bulk of local authorities were heading into a financial abyss. The 1978 provisions merely helped them on their way. It is not that there is anything truly unique about the concept of central Government transferring resuorces to local government. We have an idea that because the Department of Finance via the Department of the Environment fund the operation of local authorities the Department of Finance should control each and every action of the local authorities. That does not necessarily follow. Fund transfer from central Government to local government without strings works well in The Netherlands. The problem here is that there is such a dearth of resources available to the Exchequer that it could never painlessly transfer to local government the level of resources which cash hungry authorities demanded, particularly when the pleasurable decision to spend at local government level was being removed from the uncomfortable reality of having to raise the cash to fund the spending.

Extremly high levels of inflation and escalating local costs meant that in the early eighties the parties in Government found reform of local finances back on the agenda with a vengeance. The imposition of service charges introduced originally by Labour as a management function became the next "band aid" to be applied to the major wound. Introduced, I think, by Deputy Spring and brought into effect by Deputy Kavanagh, service charges were said at the time to be an interim arrangement. Those of us with a sense of history will recall that income tax was introduced on this island as an interm arrangement. It was introduced here and throughout the rest of the United Kingdom as a temporary expedient to fund the Napoleonic wars. Somebody forgot to tell Revenue.

Having introduced service charges, the Government commissioned the NESC to produce another report on the financing of local government. The report proposed a series of actions which were not unlike those already proposed in the Copeland Walsh Report. In 1985 the Coalition Government of Deputy FitzGerald also went on to produce their own rather sad little document, a policy statement on the reform of local government.

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but it seems he is going into a lot of detail which would be more appropriate, perhaps, to Committee Stage. What we are having from the Deputy is, in the main, a history of local government rather than what is in the Bill or what should be in the Bill.

I hesitate to quibble.

I have listened to the Deputy very carefully and would ask him to have regard to my view on this matter. What is before us is the Bill, not the history of local government in this country or generally in the world.

That is true and I am not dealing with the history of local government, I am dealing with the history of local government reform and I am dealing specifically with the tragic failure of successive Governments——

I would like the Deputy to come to the Bill, please. The details can be dealt with on Committee Stage.

I will do that. As I said, there was a further report, the details of which I will not deal with, NESC report No. 80. That report came to the same conclusions as had been reached by previous reports. The Government of the day now had before them two separate sets of propositions, one dealing with finance and one dealing with reform, but they took no action. This brings us up to the period which led to the production of this Bill.

The current set of proposals as I have sought to illustrate are not, as they have been portrayed, something which has been parachuted on this House without consideration. Each and every aspect of the Bill before us has been considered time and time again for the last 30 years. Thirty long years of discussion has gone into the issue of local government reform and has brought us to our present position regarding local government reform. Criticisms, therefore, that the current proposals are precipitous are perverse in many ways. In particular, they are perverse when they are uttered by the Leader of the Opposition. Fine Gael not only failed to make progress in the reform area when they were in power but they also refused to contribute to the preparation of the current proposals. Deputy Spring, quite rightly, drew the Taoiseach's attention to the issue yesterday that it was not other Opposition parties who refused to participate in the process, it was only the major Opposition party that refused to participate in it. The point I have been making when we dealt with the long history of local government reform documents and the failure to implement those local government reform documents was a simple one, and it is this: if local government reform is to continue to be a political football we will make no progress, we will go nowhere, we will involve ourselves in circulatory discussions and we will go around in ever-decreasing circles and we know what happens then.

The proposals in the Local Government Bill, 1991, have two major sources. At a political level a Cabinet committee worked on this issue from April 1990 when it became obvious that there would not be the capacity for an all-party approach to the issue. This committee was assisted by an expert advisory committee chaired by Dr. Tom Barrington. Dr. Barrington has been the doyen of academic research in public administration in this country for many years. The most progressive documents produced on local government have been produced under his hand. The document I will refer to More Local Government was produced with Dr. Barrington as a leading force. Therefore there is a continuity in the thinking we have before us, and it is not just inaccurate but perverse to suggest that the ideas in this Bill have been conjured out of thin air. They are the result of a long period of discussion.

The Bill is, therefore, well based. It deals with the functions of local authorities in Part II; it deals with the elections of local authorities in Part III, the reorganisation of Dublin in Part IV; the issue of boundaries in Part V; the committees issue — which I have already mentioned — in Part VI; and a variety of miscellaneous functions, most notably regional authorities, changes in the management system and changes in the planning and development area, in Part VII. The suggestions made by some Opposition speakers that the Bill is in some way dangerous, that it gives greater power to the Minister or that it in some way compromises the democratic nature of local government only serve to show how seriously out of touch with reality some of the leading Opposition spokespersons are.

I wish to deal with certain aspects of the Bill and, in deference to the ruling of the Chair, I will leave specific details to Committee Stage. The functions of local authorities are dealt with in a global way in Part II. Sections 5 and 6 represent a permissive extension of the functions of local authorities. Section 6 is particularly welcome in that it extends a general competence to the local authorities. The importance of this section is that it provides the first major statutory diminution of the ultra vires doctrine. I would like to dwell very briefly on the ultra vires doctrine. This doctrine springs out of the very nature of local government. Somebody here commented in the last two days that one of the fundamental problems that local government has in Ireland is that it has no constitutional base; it is the creature of statute, the toy always of Government.

It was suggested, a long time back, that something we could consider doing was giving, in one of the many referenda we have held, a statutory basis to local government that view is also proposed in the advisory committee's report. Section 6 is of particular interest to anybody who is a student of local government systems. The concept of ultra vires operates as a dead hand on the creativity of local government. In fact, this section fulfils an undertaking which was given as far back as 1971 to relax the stranglehold of the ultra vires doctrine. Because local government has no constitutional basis in Ireland, they are creatures of statute. Under the ultra vires concept a local authority may not do anything unless it has specific legal authority. I am aware that the doctrine has been softened up somewhat in recent years, that it does not operate to the letter but it operates close enough. There have been some relaxations over the years and something akin to the provisions of section 8, where local authorities can undertake activities which flow from existing powers or which are ancillary to statutory functions, has pertained; nonetheless, the ultra vires doctrine, until the time this Bill is enacted, applies. Even with the more liberal interpretation, a local authority has to be very conscious of the limits imposed by the law. Going beyond those limits, even for the common good, not only leaves the local authority open to an injunction but it also means that the officials and the elected councillors of the local authority involved run the risk of surcharge by the auditor.

I cannot for the life of me understand why anybody would see anything pernicious or potentially dangerous or seek to portray this section as being anything but welcome. Yet I sat here for the two days and I have listened to people who know better raising the hare that this is in some way dangerous.

Section 7 also has been portrayed as a brake on the freedom of the authorities. However, when you examine section 7 it will be seen as a reasonable and rational provision aimed at ensuring that a local authority does not make a decision to abandon one statutory function in the pursuit of other functions. This has not happened here in Ireland but it has happened with local authorities elsewhere that they have unilaterally decided to downplay their involvement in one functional area — something unattractive — and to get themselves involved in spending the resources of the local authority in other functional areas which are more order-of-the-day or have a little more PR to them. Section 7 is no more than a prudent suggestion that if we do release the strings there is at least there in law the capacity to make sure that specific functional areas are not overlooked.

Let us look at a particular functional area that could be overlooked, for example, the issue of housing repairs or maintenance. This is a thorny issue in every local authority in Ireland. It is also an issue which local authorities could decide, for whatever reason, to downplay while they are doing something else with their scarce resources. If that were to happen it would be right and prudent that a mechanism should exist to put them back into balance.

Again, for some incomprehensible reason section 9 has been attacked. That is a very progressive section. It provides for the devolution of functions by Ministers and in effect gives to Ministers the right to surrender functions to local government. In the 1971 White Paper, in the 1972 document More Local Government, and in the 1985 policy statement of Government as well as in many other publications, the idea of Ministers transferring powers and functions to local authorities has been discussed and Ministers were urged to take steps in that regard. For the first time we have made a statutory provision that will allow that to happen but, perversely, people are coming into this House and criticising that provision. This section, which has been criticised by some Members, for goodness knows what reason, is aimed at providing the mechanism for the transfer of functions. There is no secret agenda behind this section. It is a very sensible section and will be used well. If it is not used well, Members from the other parties in this House, if the Members of this party do not do so, will bring it to the attention of the House.

Part III of the Bill tightens up electoral law. The only controversial element in this part is that it has been suggested that there is something sinister in the section particularly about the proposition to postpone the urban elections. There are good reasons on this occasion for postponing them. The future geographical cover of councils operating at sub-county level has never been examined. There have been discussions but there have been no examinations. As I have said, many towns go beyond their geographical area so that the proper representation of the population of the hinterlands and the relationship between the towns and their hinterlands need to be considered. The advisory committee's report is excellent. If people have not paid attention to it, they should start doing so now. It offers two alternative views of the sub-county authorities of the future and those alternatives at a very minimum deserve examination.

Part IV of the Bill deals with the Dublin area. It provides for a rational structure in statute and I am not sure there were many serious points put forward in opposition to this part of the Bill. Part V deals with the issue of a boundary commission. I would have thought there would have been a general welcome for the proposals being put forward by the Minister but again I am at a loss to understand how anybody can portray the Minister's surrender of the statutory powers he currently has regarding the boundaries of local authorities as anything other than a positive step. The Minister has decided in his generosity to surrender powers which have vested in the central authority since the 1898 Act.

Part VI deals with the issue of joint committees and committees of local authorities. Again it is hard to understand the opposition that has been raised to this section which provides that specialist committees and joint committees can be set up. Members of these committees can, among other things, draw expenses for their attendances and what in the name of goodness is wrong with that? Why do Members suggest this is a sinister and manipulative item, an item for a secret agenda? It is clear and simple. If somebody sees something wrong with it let him say so and not beat around the bush.

I appeal to the Deputy not to over elaborate on the pros and cons of the various sections, the detail of which should be left to Committee Stage.

I have one point to make on Part VII. This part has been welcomed in detail by many of the Members who contributed to the debate. The controversial use of section 4 of the 1955 Act in planning cases has been widely discussed and was certainly widely discussed here today. I for one believe that on each and every occasion that councillors have to resort to the use of section 4 on a planning issue, it is an admission of failure. I welcome the introduction of more stringent measures to govern the use of section 4. Section 4 was never intended to be used in the planning process, but was intended to give back some democratic element of control to the elected representatives. It emerged, as did the 1955 Act, after 15 years of debate on the balance of power between the local authority's members and the manager. I welcome the decision that is implicit in what the Minister is doing here to curb the use of section 4 because, as I have said, in so far as it is used in the planning process, it is almost inevitably an admission of failure. The Minister also deals with the issue of regional authority. This issue has been around for a long time. The concept of regional agencies co-ordinating the activities, particularly those activities which go over the county boundaries, is a very good concept and I cannot understand why anybody would find this section of the Bill objectionable in any way. This, together with the remaining elements in Part VII of the Bill are progressive, forward thinking and developmental oriented. It is good and should recommend itself to the House.

It is very much in the nature of politics that we all get involved from time to time in shadow boxing. From time to time we all get involved in hurling abuse, not too barbed, across the House. The Local Government Bill, 1991, is very progressive; it has been brought before us by a very progressive Minister. It is a good Bill and there is a great deal in it which commends itself to logic and to anybody who is interested in local government. I suggest, but perhaps I may be out of order in so doing, that it would be far better for the spokesperson from the benches opposite to be a little less hypercritical of the Bill and a little more constructive, and to look on the Bill as the foundation of the local government system of the 21st century. They should use their talents and experience and their tremendous individual capacity to improve what is already an excellent piece of legislation instead of scoring points and trying to destroy the Bill.

I wholeheartedly commend the Local Government Bill, 1991, to the House and I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Padraig Flynn, on bringing it forward. It is long overdue.

The Minister of State, like myself, has sat here for four hours but it is a pity he has just left because I wished to pay a personal tribute to him. I wish to pay tribute to him for the way he has handled the public representatives who have been called on to visit him in the course of their duties as legislators and performing the role of public representatives. I want to put on record— and I hope the Minister of State will read it — that I appreciate the way he always listens to the case being made by the public representative. Indeed one gets positive results when one has the opportunity to sit down and discuss a problem with him. The Minister's understanding of the role of public representatives comes from his many years membership of a local authority before he was elected to the Dáil. The Minister benefited from the experience he gained when serving on a local authority in his constituency. Indeed, I had the pleasure in the past week of proposing that he be formally invited to Tipperary Urban Council to open a major scheme of refurbishment for which the Department were responsible. The scheme was one of the best approved by the Government or their predecessors. One of the Minister's colleagues in Government some years ago sanctioned low-cost housing throughout the country but when he realised that an error was made public funding was invested to bring the houses up to a proper standard. The fact that that was done should be appreciated. That is an example of what local authorities, or urban district councils, can do with a little financial assistance from the Department.

The introduction of the Bill was controversial. First, when the Minister published it he announced that it contained very important and major reorganisation of local government. Yesterday the Taoiseach explained the curtailment of the debate by saying that sufficient time had been given for the debate because the Bill was not very important; it was straightforward legislation that could be debated in a couple of hours on an afternoon either before or after Private Members' Business.

I compliment Deputy Roche for his well researched speech. He did take some time to deliver it, but it was well researched. The Deputy dwelt on the history of local government reorganisation and reform, which I would not attempt to do. It was appropriate to put that on the record.

However, many of the improvements the Deputy said were identified by various local government experts as being necessary will not be found in the Bill. I have read the Bill in detail since I received it on Monday and studied the explanatory memorandum which I did not receive until lunchtime on Tuesday. I have tried to interpret what the Minister was about in the Bill.

I do not doubt for one minute that there is a need for local government reform. As a matter of fact, I have advocated and fought for it. Governments of all hues have failed to address the issue. The Minister had a golden opportunity to introduce reforms. Local elections were postponed last year for the purpose of allowing the Minister, his departmental officials, the Department of Finance and all the special committees, to examine the matter. One all-party committee failed to get off the ground, through no fault of the Labour Party. However, there were other committees of experts and a committee of Fianna Fáil backbenchers. If anybody knows anything about how local authorities function, backbenchers of all parties do. We were reared in them. We came from them and we are proud of that. That is why the Minister will find most of our names on the ballot papers for local authority elections, whether they are elections for county councils, urban councils, corporations, or town commissioners.

The Minister did not address the problems we have all identified. I have been a member of the Tipperary South Riding local authority since 1967 — 24 years — and up to the present I never found anything wrong with the structures or the role of the authority in carrying out my functions as an elected member. There was co-operation between members and the manager, staff officers and the staff in the various sections, including the housing section.

The acting chairman has had long experience on local authorities, as I have, and I am sure he will agree that none of us ever had any difficulty representing the people who elected us or in delivering a service until we confronted the problem of finance. That problem is not addressed in the Bill. The Government took back to themselves the power to determine what local authorities can spend and in what areas the funds should be spent. Local authorities are now completely dependent on central funds for most of their work. That is what is wrong with local authorities; that is what is wrong with local government and that problem has been identified by all politicians.

People elect us to a body that they realise no longer has the power it had because of the structure of its finance. That arose, as Deputy Roche said, from all-party agreement that domestic rates be abolished. That was one problem. There was then the 1977 Fianna Fáil promise to abolish car tax and other sources of revenue that were of benefit to local authorities. That left local authorities drained of any autonomy. To crown it all there was the infamous court case that decided that agricultural rates not only were to be abolished but were illegal. Local authorities were left with absolutely no avenue of self financing to determine their own future to plan. That has left local authorities pauperised to this day and left all of us floundering around at estimates time or when allocating funds at electorate area committee meetings trying to determine how to spend whatever few pounds we get from charges — which are unpopular and have resulted in some people going to jail — or from rates on business premises in small towns and villages.

Local authorities are completely dependent on the Minister for the Environment and his Department, the Department of Finance, and the European Structural Fund, to give the balance for major roadworks, infrastructural development, by-pass work, and all major development in our county. What is wrong with local authorities is that we cannot raise our own finance.

It has been said, and we admit it, that people do not want to grasp the nettle of deciding how local authorities should be financed. I remember the day not so long ago when one could go to a council meeting and put down a resolution on the agenda requesting the council to carry out a particular function in one's area, as prescribed by law, in the knowledge that the local authority had the finances to match that request. Councillors were able to deliver the services to the people who elected them. Once that system was removed there began a tinkering with democracy. Now people request things that local authorities cannot deliver. They are frustrated, we are frustrated, and the Department find that the demands from each local authority grow and grow.

In spite of the improvements announced by the Minister in response to questions yesterday and in spite of the increased funding coming through from Europe — the Government still take the credit for that but we do not mind so long as we get the money — there is very little discretionary money available to local authorities. If one goes now to a local authority meeting and tables a resolution directing that certain work be carried out one is immediately cautioned by the manager that there are no funds to match that resolution, that if the resolution is carried the work cannot be carried out. Managers say that members may agree to resolutions proposed and debated but they do not have the funds to carry out the work. At times, in their kindness managers may say that if the resolution is passed it will be referred to the area roads meeting. Members know what an area roads meeting is like. You meet in your own electoral area and literally spend the few pounds you collected by way of water charges or local authority rates on businesses. This is where reform is neded but it is not forthcoming in this Bill. Perhaps the Minister will point out provisions in the Bill that will permit him to carry out that reform. There is no evidence that the Coalition partners in this Government are prepared to address the problem of local authority financing.

The Labour Party believe in the democracy of local authorities. We believe in delivering a service at local level and in local representation. We have published documentation on the functions and roles of local authorities as well as their financing. The Minister said he has no intention of reintroducing property tax or rates. If central Government take upon themselves the responsibility of providing the majority of finance to local authorities for the foreseeable future, each county council are entitled to know at the beginning of each year how the allocations are to be made, whether they are to be based on the population in the area, on the value of the pound in terms of rating structure or on the number of national primary routes running through a county? We have said in our document that we would accept pro rata allocations to local authorities based on any system used by local authorities abroad.

Deputy Roche complimented the ultra vires section which will give local authorities, for the first time ever, powers to do certain things. In Part II, section 6, one of these powers is spelled out. It states: “A local authority may, subject to the provisions of this section, take such measures, engage in such activities or do such things in accordance with law (including the incurring of expenditure) as it considers necessary or desirable to promote the interests of the local community”. That is a magnificent section, but to implement it the local authority need money. The position is the same here as with all legislation. Even when we change the word “may” to “shall” making it obligatory on agencies, whether health boards or local authorities, to do certain things, they plead inability to do so because of a lack of funds.

It is laid down in legislation that dental services be provided in health board areas, but the health boards plead inability to do so because they do not have the funds. You can legislate for health boards to provide funding for people in nursing homes, as we did and we were delighted to do so, but now the health boards are pleading inability to implement the legisation because they do not have the funds. What use is section 6 if the funds are not available to implement it? Section 6 (1) (b) states:

For the purpose of this section a measure, activity or thing shall be deemed to promote the interests of the local community if it promotes, directly or indirectly, the social, economic, environmental, recreational, cultural, community or general development of the functional area (or any part thereof) of the local authority concerned or of the local community (or any group consisting of members thereof).

That would be a great provision if the funds were available to implement it, if we had an assurance that the Government, in centralising, as Deputy Roche said, in an almost obscene way, many of the roles and functions of local authorities, would provide the necessary funds. The local authorities are capable of carrying out these functions but cannot do so because they are restricted in terms of funds.

There has been some criticism of the Bill. I will read another section to convince the House of our concern. Section 3 (7) reads as follows:

The Minister may——

(a) by order, amend or revoke any order under this Act (other than an order under section 1 (10) but including an order under this subsection), and

(b) by direction amend or revoke a direction under this Act ...

The only order that is excluded from the superior power of the Minister — by order he has power to wipe out the whole Bill if he likes — is the one referred to in section 1 (10) which reads: "This Act shall come into operation on such day or days as, by order or orders made by the Minister,". The Minister is excluding an order he makes to bring in the Act but he can by order amend or revoke any other order under the Act.

This is not legislation that would upset anyone. A one line Bill would have sufficed. The Minister could have brought in an Act to say he has power to abolish the Act. It is as simple as that. The Minister is conferring power onto himself and it will be voted in this House. Is that democracy? Regulations would be circulated to Opposition spokespersons and would be brought before the House to ensure that that legislation is effective, but an order may not be brought before the House, it would be lodged in the Library. That is the power the Minister is taking onto himself.

This is a high-handed dictatorial section. I have never seen such a section in legislation where the Minister has the power to wipe out everything with the stroke of a pen. He can amend or revoke any order once he has made an order to bring in the Bill. That is an extraordinary power for any Minister in any democracy. I accept that the Executive arm of Government must, and will at all times, act in the best interests of the people. I am not suggesting that this Minister will use these extraordinary powers, although most Ministers at times attempt to do so; neither am I suggesting that the Minister is immune from temptation.

The Deputy knows that provision is in virtually every Bill brought before the House.

Almost every Bill, but not in the area of local government in which we are all involved. This is the first time it is being used in the area of local authorities. As I have said, I am a member of a local authority, as was the Minister——

I interrupt the Deputy to say that on Second Stage a person is permitted to talk about anything in the Bill but the Deputy is specifically referring to one section. That is not normal procedure on Second Stage. That would be more proper to Committee Stage.

I wanted to alert you, Chairman, to this extraordinary power which makes every other section of the Bill almost irrelevant.

Acting Chairman

The point is taken.

I will deal with some of the other areas in the Bill. Since Christmas I have heard a lot about this Bill and have read the report of the special committee. I felt that this Bill might have dealt with the role of the members and manager and the functional area. In this Bill the Minister has the power to extend functional areas, to change boundaries and representation within boundaries. I listened to Deputy Roche who said that areas are getting bigger, which is true, but up to now boundary changes were made as a result of consultation between local authorities and an inner local authority within the area. For example, Tipperary South Riding came to an agreement with Cashel Urban District Council and with Clonmel Corporation; there was no problem. I would not object to the Minister having power in this area if two local authorities could not agree to an extension or division of boundaries. However, county councils functioned within existing legislation and did it successfully.

That is right.

There is nothing wonderful about changing boundaries. I am not allowed to deal with this section but the Minister has given himself extraordinary powers to do more.

The Bill deals with everything except finance. We advocated the introduction of a land tax because of the abolition of rates, in particular agricultural rates, which were of benefit to the people who paid them. They had a very good record in regard to payment. The agricultural community are often maligned in various debates regarding what they pay but the system of rates had a 99 per cent collection and payment. It was a great system because the ratepayer received a service, the minor roads serving him and his neighbours were serviced and the county road structure was also looked after out of the ratepayers' money. That was important as he felt he had a right to make an input. The only prople who created problems were the IFA who protested and paraded outside the council chamber on estimates day on the basis that we were spending too much.

When that system was declared unconstitutional we suggested the introduction of a land tax which became law. Unfortunately, the Fianna Fáil Government promised to abolish it when they returned to office. I have always advocated a land tax because it allows for a percentage of money to flow to the local authority, which was a welcome measure in that it gave finance back to the local authority. That meant the Government with which our party were involved had, unfortunately, to introduce charges, as they are unpopularly known. The problem about charges was that they were not developed as a temporary funding system, indeed the Minister has confirmed that the system will continue. If this is not the case he should say so now before the local elections because in 1985, Fianna Fáil said they were totally opposed to the new system of local charges, that on return to office they would abolish them and repeal the legislation under which they are imposed, namely, the Local Government (Financial Provisions) (No. 2) Act, 1983. That was their manifesto in 1985 as well as many other things which we might still quote because they are relevant and people want to know, coming up to local authority elections, what they are doing about it.

Charges were brought in to urban areas only because the urban ratepayer at that time was paying rates. This did not apply to the commercial urban ratepayer but to the privately rated occupier of houses in urban authorities. The rates were described as including water and sanitary services, refuse collection and sewerage systems. It was discovered when they abolished the rates that they were then forced to introduce legislation in 1983 which replaced that funding for essential services. That was all the then Minister, Deputy Spring, did in 1983, he extended water charges to urban authorities which, up to then, had their fee included in the domestic rates. County councils, for the 24 years I have been on them, have been charging for water——

That is right.

That applies in respect of every party. There was always a charge because the rating structure was slightly different. It was on the basis of fair play that they were extended to all users of the service. When the legislation went through we were concerned and there was a major debate within our own party about it. We foolishly accepted that the charges would be temporary and that a waiver scheme would operate. The matter was debated in this House and in the Seanad and we identified the categories which would be exempt. However, later on, managers saw a loophole in the legislation and added a second tier waiver. They began to identify the income of the category holders and whereas a person living on the dole would normally have been excluded from paying service charges if they had five or six children which brought their income to more than £100 per week, in my constituency that applicant will not get water rates relief. If they were married but did not have any children on the same income they would be provided with water for a nominal fee of £5. The application of the waiver scheme is unfair and I ask the Minister to address the problem and lay down guidelines under the legislation by way of amendment or regulations which would remove some of the anomalies in it.

There is a housing crisis regardless of whether the Government will admit it. I have complimented the Government, their predecessor, the Minister and the Minister of State, Deputy Connolly, on their major programme of refurbishment, which is a credit to them. However, the finance available for local authority housing new starts is totally inadequate for the needs of the country. Something like 30,000 local authority houses are needed by all local authorities, urban, corporation and county council. The Minister has given us sufficient funds this year to build 23 houses in County Tipperary, in the administrative area of South Tipperary County Council. At present there are about 200 applicants approved with another 150 being processed, 90 per cent of whom will also be approved. Something like 400 people are in need of a house and we have money to build 27. In the Tipperary urban area we have hundreds of applications for OPDs and family houses but they are not getting any money to build houses this year.

There are problems in the areas of local authorities, legislation and finance. Indeed, there are problems in every area for which the Minister has responsibility. I am concerned that we do not seem to regard this as a crisis. The Minister published his social housing programme, there are innovative ideas in it which I welcome. I also welcome the reintroduction of a mortgage subsidy to assist people to leave local authority housing and to purchase private housing. That system applied before but the Government abolished it because they thought it was a bad system. They now see it as an incentive for people in local authority houses to buy private houses. In reading the social housing programme I am worried that there does not seem to be a role for local authorities. As an example, Clonmel Corporation are not involved in the joint ownership of houses which indicates that there are undercurrents about the future role of these councils.

I am a member of an urban council but I do not have a problem in relation to the Minister's identification in the Bill about the postponement of any election in an area provided there is a good reason for it. I would have no objection to the extension of urban councils into urban and district councils, but, I would resent the total abolition of urban councils. I would resent it very much if Clonmel Corporation, which has a statute going back hundreds of years, was tampered with. I would have no objection to an increase in their powers or administrative area. However, again, I would object if Cashel Urban Council, an old council which represents a town with the status of city handed down from Irish Royalty, were abolished. I would also resent the abolition of Carrick-on-Suir Urban Council. If the Minister checks his records he will see that Carrick-on-Suir Urban Council have a record second to none on housing.

I mention this point because in the social housing programme these councils seem to be excluded by the Minister from participating in some of the innovative proposals in regard to local authorities. This is why I am concerned about the Minister's proposals. The Minister visited my constituency recently to reassure Fianna Fáil councillors, particularly those on Clonmel Corporation who had threatened to resign if he had plans to abolish their corporation, that he has no such plans. He also told the Fianna Fáil members of Tipperary Urban Council that he had no plans to abolish that council. When the Minister was asked what plans he had for the councils which would be elected next year he said nothing. Will they be urban and district councils? Will Clonmel District Corporation be a rating authority? Will they have the power to strike a rate and continue to have their present powers in regard to housing? If I read the housing programme correctly, it says that they will be able to look after burial grounds and sanitary services but they will not have any real powers. If their powers are to be changed I would welcome an assurance from the Minister——

It does not say anything about the sub-county structures. The Deputy is presupposing what I will say.

Acting Chairman

An Teachta Ferris without any interruption from An tAire.

I do not like to see the Deputy going astray.

Acting Chairman

An tAire will have ample opportunity to reply.

I do not want to be too specific but the Minister will have power under the Bill to postpone elections in some areas. Why does he want the power to postpone elections in the case of certain urban and district councils including Clonmel Corporation? If these councils will have the same powers as they have at present why does he not want them to be elected? It is because he will give the additional powers and different administrative areas? Perhaps the Minister will be kind enough to reply to this question. If they do not have a role in the social housing programme, what role will they have? Obviously county councils will become very powerful bodies. I would not like district or sub-councils — I do not know what they will be called — to think that they are merely talking shops. They should not have to depend on the councils, and their principal function in relation to housing should not be taken away from them, as they are able to identify the housing needs in their areas.

I want to refer to previous local structures, for example, the county committees of agriculture. These extraordinarily good bodies prepared the documentation and plans for agricultural development in their local areas. However, in time half the members of these committees were selected and half were elected until eventually they were abolished altogether. The same happened in the case of the local health committees which were set up under the 1970 Health Act to make recommendations to the health boards. The necessary legislation to abolish these committees has not yet been introduced. Therefore some of these committees still meet legally on a formal basis. The chief executive officers in the various health boards decided that they should be abolished as they had no role. However they had a role in the promotion of the health needs of the people in their areas.

I hope the Minister will come clean and tell us his plans for local authorities at district council and corporation level. Otherwise it will be an election issue. We are all democrats and we should like to know the Minister's plans for these bodies. The Minister also referred to regional structures. This was welcomed by Deputy Roche who said that the Minister would be making a major breakthrough by giving statutory powers to regional structures for the first time ever. He referred to SERDO and the marvellous work they had done in representing the councils and engineers. He said that one of the problems with this body was that no Minister had given them statutory powers and they were abolished. The Minister is reintroducing some sort of regional structure which we understand, will have statutory powers. How will these regional bodies be elected? Will they be nominated or selected?

This brings me to the section of the Bill dealing with committees and sub-committees. Like Deputy Yates, I hope the present system, which is an improvement on the system which enabled the larger parties to decide everything in many councils, will enable smaller parties to have a say in the nomination of people to these committees. The Minister's proposals in this regard are not spelt out sufficiently in the Bill. Will that proportionality be continued? I am glad to see the Minister nodding his head.

I have several reservations about this legislation, many of which relate to the powers of the Minister. I have tried to identify the areas about which we are concerned. There are many glaring anomalies in the Bill. Perhaps it is evolving legislation and it will enable the Minister to make additional changes over the next five or ten years or however long the electorate leave him in office. I hope that whatever documentation is published by the Government at election time will contain proposals which people can believe. Many people believed the promises given in the last Fianna Fáil manifesto about local authority finances and the abolition of charges. There are people in jail in Cork today because they believed those promises; they were told that these charges would replace other taxes. At that time Deputy Bobby Molloy said that Fianna Fáil would restore financial stability to local authorities by repealing that Act. He also identified other central areas such as unemployment, emigration and the local health services. Fianna Fáil have not kept any of the promises they made in 1985. Unfortunately, this makes people suspicious of genuine political parties. We always try to sell our proposals to the best of our ability but sometimes people's imaginations can be stretched to the limit when some councils have no charges and other councils which have charges put people in jail for non-payment. This makes one wonder whether there are different rules or different people in different areas. I hope the Minister will dispel some of these doubts. Otherwise this legislation will be undemocratic and will give extraordinary powers to the Minister.

I want to refer to our concerns about the proposals for Dublin. Dublin has been identified as an area in need of special attention administratively and electorally. Dublin is a city with thousands of people living on the periphery in isolated, poorly serviced communities while its centre is marked by dereliction and neglect. Dublin city has experienced a massive decline in population over the last 12 years. Many areas are blighted by poverty and unemployment. When Deputy Tully was a Minister he started the process of urban renewal. That has continued but there are still tremendous needs in the area. The city is choking to death with traffic and journey times across the city get longer and longer. There seems to be disagreement between the Minister and the Minister of State as to how to approach this problem. I hope they will reconcile their differences and deal with the problems because the fabric of the city is under threat. Public transport is seriously under-developed and the speed and the amount of traffic in the city makes many housing estates unsafe.

While the centre of the city is neglected, pressure continues to build for development on the outskirts. This has led to the section 4 abuses. There is no political party, except perhaps the Labour Party, who are exempt from blame in relation to section 4 abuses. We have used section 4 motions occasionally in my constituency correctly in consultation with the management and the planning officer. Perhaps the Minister has tried to address this in the legislation. I would not like the powers of local authority members to be eroded but there was an obvious public demand for change in this area. Let us see how this works on the ground and if the elected people in an area wish to take on the responsibility for suggesting rezoning in areas which are not included in the development plan for the area.

There is pressure building up for rezoning the green belt between the city and the mountains, around the lakes at Lucan, Swords, Malahide and Portmarnock. The virtual ending of public house building in the city has created a housing crisis for thousands of families and for the homeless. There is a backlog of refurbishment work in Dublin local authority areas. In Tipperary we have achieved a good standard in relation to refurbishment work, an example which could be followed in Dublin. The process of revitalising Dublin must include listening, consultation and harnessing the input of Dubliners. If we are to make any progress in this area we must learn from past mistakes and rebuild the city so that it enhances rather than hinders people in their daily lives. Dublin should be a city which meets the needs and aspirations of all its citizens, a city which offers a good life to all. Dublin should no longer be divided by class or income and public amenity should transcent the anxiety for private profit. We should have a balance between private and public transport. There should be a democratic Dublin transport authority put in place with a mandate to give priority to public transport. They should be able to plan public transport, traffic management, parking, and roads development as part of an overall strategy. This city needs a public transport system which will transport people efficiently to wherever they wish to go with the least possible damage to the environment. There are suggestions with regard to reopening inner city railway lines and extending them. We would like those kind of dynamic projects to be taken up under the direction of the Minister.

Housing is one of the key areas of urban renewal. There is a demand for inner city housing from families originally from the inner city, from single people of all ages and from people without private transport and so on. Housing associations backed up by groups similar to those that exist in Scotland, in Glasgow particularly, can play a major role in a partnership between public, voluntary and private sector organisations. The Minister's housing programme covers this area and I welcome that. I hope that the change with regard to section 4 motions will mean a halt to this rezoning scandal in Dublin.

Local councils should be elected for areas like Tallaght, Lucan, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown and Swords and they should have the powers and resources to tackle local problems. There should be local authority offices in shopping centres so that people can walk in off the street to deal with statutory requirements, whether car tax or whatever. The nearer that sort of service is to the people the better. There are district offices in county council areas but they do not give the broad facility that should be available in local authority offices. The Minister should look at the possibility of decentralising local authorities within their administrative areas. In a constituency like mine many people are 40 miles or more from the administrative town of Clonmel. We could address some of these needs without legislation, but with a little ingenuity and imagination from the Minister.

Generally speaking the Bill is a disappointment. It gives the Minister extraordinary powers. The Minister can almost gerrymander electoral areas in the county boroughs of Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford and Galway. I hope the Minister will not go down that road because it could and would lead to unhappiness, at least within the Opposition parties and among members of Fianna Fáil. I hope our reading of this section is wrong. We are prepared to listen to the Minister. If he can reassure us, it will remove some of our doubts about this legislation.

Deputy Roche criticised the media interpretation of what happened yesterday and last night on other legislation. The media have been as kind to this legislation as they can be since the Minister launched this as a very important piece of legislation and the Taoiseach said it was not so important after all and wanted to know why all this fuss about the amount of time needed to debate it. This Bill gives rise to the possibility that we will have elections on 27 June. I have already knocked on some doors in rural areas——

Is the Deputy at it already?

I am, because I want to make sure that I will be elected.

The Deputy's seat is safe.

I can inform the Minister, having knocked on doors and spoken to people, that he and his Department will find themselves in difficulty over the condition of the roads. I am not talking here about potholes but rather about the fact that our county and minor roads which service agricultural communities have not been maintained. They are a disgrace for the simple reason that we do not have the money to maintain them.

This Bill does not address the question of local authority finance. If the Minister does not come to grips with this matter all the restructuring in the world will not do. I can function under the existing structures of local authorities and that is the reason I am putting myself forward for election again.

The Deputy offered rates as a solution.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Ferris to continue without interruption.

The Minister is trying to prompt me and has suggested that we have offered rates as a solution but we have not done that. We have proposed that funds be allocated on the basis of size of population, road network and needs, along the lines of other European models. The Minister has said that he does not want to see the return of rates or a property tax. The sooner the Minister addresses the problem the sooner the local authorities will be able to carry out their role.

I have been amused by some of the comments made on this Bill on the Opposition benches. I was amused in particular by the comments made on the Order of Business yesterday afternoon when they ranted and raved about the amount of time allocated for this debate. At the same time they criticised the Bill and argued that there was nothing in it. If that is the case, then far too much time has been allocated. However they are saying the direct opposite but they cannot have it both ways. This defies all logic.

As the Taoiseach pointed out yesterday, this Bill is only the first step in reforming local government. Listening to some of the speakers one would think that the Bill deals with roads. It does not but has to do with the reform of local government and the way local government operates. It is a bit rich that the members of the Government who were in office until 1987 are now talking about roads, given that they allocated only £8 million per annum for roads. We increased this figure to £50 million per annum on coming into office. Indeed, a sum of £65 million was allocated last year. I have not seen Fine Gael make any concrete proposals to reform local government. To be fair to the Labour Party and The Workers' Party, at least they were prepared to participate with the Government in an all-party committee to examine the question of local government reform.

When it did not prove possible to establish such an all-party committee the Taoiseach decided to set up a Fianna Fáil committee comprising backbenchers of the party. Deputy Ferris lauded him earlier for making this move. I was very pleased to be a member of that committee who dealt with the question of local government reform in great detail. In all, that committee met on 20 occasions and spent a number of days in England examining the way in which local authorities operate there. We are serious about local government reform. However I do not think that the other parties in the House are.

There is no doubt that there is a greater degree of local democracy in England but this Bill is the first step in giving the members of county councils more powers and in removing them from management. Few reforms were proposed during the period 1982 to 1987. It is very easy for the Opposition parties to criticise us now but it should be remembered they introduced service charges. Deputy Ferris admitted that these were introduced by Deputy Spring. We have a problem with service charges in Waterford city and I and my party have been reminding people of that fact but they do not believe us. It has now been put on the record of the House tonight who introduced the local service charges. I have no problem with these charges and supported their introduction——

Your party said prior to the last election that they would abolish them.

——but it is a bit rich that those parties who introduced them are now opposing them.

Deputy Bruton should stay out of it.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Kenneally to continue without interruption.

The reasons for the delay in bringing forward the Bill have been outlined already and I do not intend to go back over that ground again. One of the reasons the Bill has to be enacted fairly soon is that major changes have taken place in Dublin. I do not intend to dwell on these, as my colleagues from the Dublin area will refer to them, except to say that it is extremely important that the three county councils are set up in the Dublin region in Fingal, south Dublin and Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown.

It is obvious that the county council in Dublin is too large. I do not think the Opposition have any problems with that proposal and it is my belief that they have similar proposals in mind. The Minister had adopted a very wise approach. He has not tried to say that from the close of business on day one Dublin County Council will be no more and that from day two we will have three new county councils. I am glad that the Minister has not tried to adopt such an approach. Instead he is approaching the matter in a very sensible manner, has decided to let the position evolve and intends to introduce furher legislation later on.

One of the Bill's strengths is that it proposes that many functions should be returned to the local community. Section 5 (2) (a) states that a local authority may communicate to other local authorities the views of the local community. The present arrangements between local authorities need to be strengthened as there will always be something in one local authority which will affect another — for instance, smell, smog and noise know no county boundaries.

Corruption.

It is important therefore that the different councils liaise with each other. We in Waterford city face a particular problem given our closeness to the Kilkenny County Council area. There is one problem which does not affect them but affects us. I am not criticising that local authority as they are doing all they can in co-operation with us to alleviate the problem. It would be far better if it was possible for these statutory bodies to come together to deal with such problems, and the Bill makes provision for this. That provision will be of tremendous benefit to the counties which surround Dublin: Louth, Meath, Wicklow and Kildare.

I also welcome section 6 to which Deputy Ferris referred. He was worried that inadequate funding will be provided, but that section will allow the local authorities to promote the interests of local communities. I am aware that many of them already do this. They have promoted various projects within their regions even though they were not set up to carry out this function. I am delighted that this legislation recognises the work they have been doing. Many of these have set up community workshops, etc.

Deputy Ferris is worried about the money involved. It takes very little seed capital to get this underway and FÁS are playing a part in this. Many jobs are being created in this way.

Debate adjourned.
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