I seek the permission of the House to share my time with my colleague, Deputy Jimmy Deenihan.
Private Members' Business. - Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 1991: Second Stage.
Is that agreed? Agreed.
I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."
I have been strongly committed to this Bill for a considerable period of time. My determination to introduce this Bill at the first available opportunity was fashioned between 1979 and 1985. Having become a county councillor for the first time in 1979, I also became a member of a vocational education committee. On scanning the assembled membership of Mayo County VEC, I immediately noticed the absence of teacher representation. The committee was composed of 14 members — eight county councillors and six others. They included farmers, a journalist, ESB workers, car salesmen, national teachers and a priest, in addition to two nominees from each of the three urban district councils in the country. These were all worthy people but there was not a vocational teacher in sight. This is not strictly true as they were present as observers, sitting demurely at the back of the meeting to observe; they could not participate or contribute but could simply observe and report back to the next meeting of their union. They had no involvement in the meeting.
They could only participate on rare occasions when matters of particular interest were under discussion. In such circumstances, one of the union observers could raise his hand, in an "an bhfuil cead agam"? approach, and beg the permission of the Chair and the meeting to make an observation on the subject under discussion. On occasion the meeting did permit the observation but not very often before reminding the observers, as if they needed reminding, that they could only make an observation, and not a recommendation. A recommendation would have been seen as interference with the work of the committee. Having been afforded the concession to make the oral observation the observers then lapsed back to observe and behold while the decision-makers got on with the job of running vocational education in the country.
There were times when observers' requests for the concession to comment on the issue under discussion were not acceded to and observers continued to gaze in amazement as important decisions involving the vocational education system in the county were taken. These decisions often affected the members themselves or their union colleagues and on occasion were taken literally over their heads. Sometimes such decisions did not always represent the best interests of vocational education but still the observers could only sit and observe. It was a bit like being a dumb spectator at your own wake.
Things have not changed that much. I accept that every vocational education committee is an independent, statutory autonomous authority in its own right and it can decide to extend the observer status of the union representation. Some VECs allow observer status only with no right of comment while others allow observer status with full right of comment, but comment only. There are some vocational education areas where the welcome practice has developed that the Teachers' Union of Ireland is written to and asked to nominate representatives on the vocational committee. These vocational education committees are to be commended because they are recognising the fundamental necessity of worker participation and the importance and desirability of input by the very people at the coalface. They are, therefore, displaying a willingness to be advised on matters educational by the practitioners themselves, the people who have daily hands-on contact, the people qualified to advise, namely, the teachers themselves.
There are VECs in which there are vocational teachers, members of the union, and, indeed, in some cases officers of the union nominated, unfortunately, by the political party who control the VEC and, of course, by implication compromised and obligated to the wishes of his or her political nominators.
The more I read the 1930 Vocational Education Act — section 8 of which I now seek to amend — the more I realise that the scope of the Act was broad and far-seeing enough to almost wish and invite a specific amendment, the nature of which Fine Gael have produced in this Bill. Section 8 (3) states:
The VEC for a county vocational education area shall consist of—
(a) Fourteen members elected by the county council. ...of whom not less than five nor more than eight shall be persons who are members of such council;
The most interesting part of the Act is the advice given in section 8 (4) which deals with the additional minimum of six co-opted places. Section 8 (4) states:
A local authority electing under this section persons to be members of a vocational education committee shall have regard to the interest and experience in education of the person proposed to be so elected and to any recommendations made by bodies (including associations or bodies of employers or of employees) interested in manufacture or trades in the area of such committee and shall, where it appears desirable and circumstances permit, so make such election as to provide for the representation of such bodies on such committee.
I cannot think of any group or body more qualified to meet the spirit of the recommendation of having "interest and experience in education" than the teachers themselves, and yet they have absolutely no right whatever — and this is the important distinction — to sit on VECs. The spirit of section 8 (4) of the 1930 Act is quite clear: the authors of the Act were endeavouring to accommodate as broad a range of experience as possible in order to have as representative an element of input as possible. It is clear that the thinking behind the Act was light years ahead of its time in that it was quite obviously allowing for the evolution of the type of worker participation which has become very much the norm today. Here we are in 1991, 61 years later, on the brink of entering the 21st century and there is still no statutory right of teacher participation on VECs.
One has to examine how the six co-opted vocational education places have been assigned. Over the years they have largely become the preserve of the political parties who make up the county council. Indeed, sometimes they are the sole preserve of the dominant party on the council, particularly where a winner-take-all philosophy is the order of the day. Apart from the occasions when a teacher is co-opted and indeed in the case of County Dublin VEC, where a third level student representative is given membership, most of the six places go to either defeated county council candidates or strong party affiliates. I am afraid that if the truth is told, the recommendation of the 1930 Act, that such co-opted members should have "interest and experience in education" has not been given much of a priority when the county councils of the country sat down to make their choices. I know that there is the odd exception. The occasional county council do genuinely seek to pick non-aligned people of calibre whose expertise and perspectives can improve the quality of decision-making. I suppose it is quite understandable, politics being politics, that if a party candidate loses in a county council election by a handful of votes or if he or she has been instrumental in electing a colleague, that candidate feels that the tradition of rewarding such service by a co-opted place on one of the county council committees should be retained. However, education has been the biggest loser in this, in that the associations or bodies of employers or employees — the people with expertise — the people intended within the spirit of this Bill, have not had the opportunity to give of their experience and expertise to the VECs over the years. I want to make it crystal clear that I am not being political in this. I am not casting a slur on any particular political party. I am not suggesting that it is a Fianna Fáil phenomenon. Councils dominated by my own party have very often adopted the same attitude.
I want to refer here to the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. One of the major players in the talks leading to the signing of the new programme was, once again, one of the main social partners, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. One of the major successes of the trade union movement has been the breakthrough in worker participation — the recognition of the right of employees to participate at the highest level in management decisions affecting State companies. There are worker directors in Irish Rail, Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus, the Gas Company, the Sugar Company. All of these have in their own way added a vital perspective to management affairs. This is democracy at work — industrial democracy.
Section 8 of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress states that 35 State enterprises have introduced participation arrangements for their workers in accordance with the spirit and terms of the Worker Participation (State Enterprises) Act, 1988. The Programme for Economic and Social Progress is quite clear in its commitment to “determining how progress can be made in relation to employee participation in the public service”. This Bill does exactly what the Worker Participation Act envisaged and what the Programme for Economic and Social Progress enshrines. It is a clear, simple, uncomplicated, prescriptive Bill. It gives the teachers in each vocational education committee the right to elect two of its members on to the VECs. In doing so it does not in any way infringe on any of the core eight positions reserved for county councillors. It simply reserves two of the co-opted places for teachers and changes the selection process from co-option by county councils to direct elections by the teachers themselves.
There is no valid reason whatever for not accepting that system and accepting it now. Indeed, I would emphasise that it is vital that it be accepted now. The local elections take place on 27 June next. Two weeks later the county councils and corporations of the county meet and elect their chairpersons and committees. The vocational education committees which will be put in place in July 1991 will remain in situ in each county and each corporation area until 1996. Unless this legislation is enacted before the local elections, then the right of teachers to direct representation to VECs cannot become a reality for the next five years at least. There has been a tendency latterly to extend the remit and term of office of county councils from five years to six years — as on this occasion — and seven years on some occasions. No amount of tinkering around with ad hoc advisory structures, no amount of recommendation to county councils to allow teachers one or two places can substitute for fully fledged membership of VECs by right as this Bill proposes.
The Teachers Union of Ireland have supported this Bill. I thank them and welcome their support. The Teachers Union of Ireland which has managed to combine this trenchant defence of its members' rights with a very broad and enlightened approach to all education matters is one of the paramount trade union examples in this country. The TUI have shown tremendous willingness and capacity to adapt to new developments and changes in education. They have been to the forefront in proposing and welcoming positive educational innovation. Latterly their attitude to school based assessment was but a further example of their positive and forward-thinking approach. From next July I want to see vocational education committees harnessing that wealth of knowledge, talent and expertise which the TUI and all vocational education teachers have.
Vocational education has been a good servant of the Irish people. Over the years vocational education has broadened its scope of involvement. It has shown that it is receptive, imaginative and adaptive. It has taken in its stride the leaving certificate and the intermediate certificate. The community college concept operates very successfully under the aegis of the vocational education committees. Two VEC members play important roles on boards of management of community schools. The VEC system has shown tremendous adaptability in its involvement and management of a large sector of third level education. Vocational education committees manage and operate very effectively the nine regional technical colleges, the provincial colleges of music and the six DIT colleges in Dublin.
There is one provision of the Bill which I propose to seek to amend on Committee Stage if we get that far. That is the reference in section 1 (b), line 30, to the ballot being that of the teachers in second level schools. I will propose that this should read "schools and colleges" rather than "second level schools", thereby enabling teachers in third level colleges run by VECs to vote and be elected as members of VECs.
Article 42 of the Constitution acknowledges the role of parents as the primary and natural educators of the child. I welcome recent statements by the Minister for Education about the need for greater parental involvement in the whole education process. The use of the term "parent power", however, in my opinion was an unfortunate choice of words in that power has connotations of conflict or struggle whereas education is about partnership, participation, trust and mutual confidence. The selective use of the words "parent power" caused some unease and was welcomed neither by parents nor teachers. I realise that the Minister was talking about greater parental involvement and participation, but as invariably happens on such occasions the strongest terminology used receives the geatest highlighting.
I fully support the concept of maximum participation by parents. Their participation is fundamental to the whole spirit of the Constitution, apart from being the very essence of natural law. The involvement of parents on boards of management of primary schools in particular has been extremely successful, with the election of their members to the various management boards inviting a very high level of parent participation. Where such management structures are in place, by and large the parents' participation on such boards has been extremely constructive.
The growth of the National Parents' Council has put the role and participation of parents very much at centre stage in all aspects of education. I want to see that role and involvement consolidated and enhanced in years to come. It is good that private secondary schools are increasingly accepting the need for management boards involving parents' representatives. One hopes that in the not too distant future every secondary school will have a board of management involving at least two parents. At community school and community college level parents' representatives play full and active parts in the school management boards.
While there are individual boards of management in vocational schools with parents thereon, such management boards in themselves have very little real power. I sat on one such board. Because the vocational education committee are the local autonomous statutory body for the regulation of vocational education within the county, it is in the VEC that the real power rests. Every VEC get their annual budget from the Department of Education and they decide how to disburse that money. Every VEC organise teacher allocation and deployment within their area. Every VEC meet on a monthly basis to oversee the entire operation of vocational education within the county or borough area.
I have already outlined the numerical composition of the VEC. I am asking the Minister for Education, in the same vein as I appealed for a logical and fair-minded approach to the issue of teacher participation, to accept the absolute right and necessity of giving two of the currently co-opted places to two parents elected by their own members. Literally no member of a VEC, neither politician, priest nor anybody else, has as much right to membership as have the parents because their position is constitutionally provided for.
One of the features of Question Time and debates on education in this House has been the inevitable recourse by the Minister to the contents of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. Paragraph 75 of section iv of the programme urges that there should be “an active parents' association in connection with each individual school, to promote and develop effective and positive participation by parents in education at school level”. This Bill supports this concept and would encourage the organisation of parents in each individual school so as to enable them to participate in the electoral process of two of their members to a vocational education committee.
Paragraph 77 of the programme states:
Positive parental interest is crucial to the child's educational attainment. It must, therefore, be an essential strategy of educational policy and practice to promote parental involvement in the education of their children. To this end, the Department of Education proposes to support development programmes of the National Parents' Council aimed at increasing the level and quality of involvement by parents in education, particularly in disadvantaged areas. It proposes to pay an annual grant of £25,000 to each of the two tiers of the Council to assist them with such programmes.
I laud the Minister for such financial assistance and encouragement. It is good, positive and extremely helpful, but the Minister knows from speaking to the Vocational Parents' Association that their first priority is the right to elect two of their members to the vocational education committees. Such a move will cost nothing but will certainly mean a lot.
On Saturday, 6 April 1991 addressing the annual delegate conference of the National Parents' Council — Primary in Wexford the Minister stated:
Power in such a partnership has to be shared in some way. In this sharing process parents tend to be the weaker partners.
In the VECs not alone are they not the weaker partners — they are not partners at all. There is no partnership and they are simply not involved. The Minister went on to say that parent power, in order to create an important necessary balance in the education system, is needed. Of course it is needed but there is neither power, participation nor representation on VECs for parents.
The Minister continued by saying that partnership for parents in education is the stated policy aim of the Government. If the Minister is serious, then the acceptance and enactment of this Bill should be welcomed as giving practical expression to what she has been saying in recent weeks and months.
The Minister stated that "positive parental interest is crucial to a child's educational attainment". We agree and one cannot have involvement at a higher level in the vocational education sector than on the ultimate management authority, the vocational education committee.
I fully realise that the Minister's Green Paper on Education will attract submissions on teacher and parent participation in education. I am sure the Education Act, when it emerges, will give a statutory basis to various management structures, again involving participation by the parties in education. However, I do not want a Green Paper, White Paper or any other paper, or indeed the Education Act, to be used as an excuse to defer the rights of participation by parents and teachers in VECs. If these rights are not established now they cannot and will not be established for another five years. That is the bottom line. The teachers in vocational schools, vocational colleges and regional technical colleges will feel badly let down, and rightly so. Equally the parents of pupils in vocational schools and community colleges will feel justifiably let down, disappointed, resentful and very much left out in the cold. You cannot be a partner in education or in any other area if you are left outside looking in.
It has been suggested to me — politicians of various persuasions have come under pressure from members of the public — that by designating four of the six places — two for parents and two for teachers — we are encroaching on what has been seen as the traditional preserve of members of county councils, that is, giving places to party affiliates and so on. I want to make it perfectly clear that although I would prefer the four places to come from within the existing scope of the 14-member VEC, I would be prepared, irrespective of my reservations, to accept an amendment to this Bill increasing the VEC membership from 14 to 18. That would allow for participation by two parents and two teachers and at the end of the day, it would establish the ratio I am proposing here. Rather than accept any move that would hinder the involvement of teachers and parents in VECs I would be prepared, as the author and sponsor of this Bill, to accept such amendments. I have great pleasure in recommending this Bill to the House and I look forward to a positive response from all the Opposition parties not least from the Minister.
Before we proceed I would like to hear the timescale for the debate.
Acting Chairman
The opening speakers have 40 minutes. As the debate started at 7.15 p.m. They will, therefore, conclude at 7.55 p.m.
First, I congratulate Deputy Higgins for bringing forward this Bill. I also thank the Teachers' Union of Ireland and the parents of pupils in vocational and community colleges for their support. It is a very forward looking proposal and one that should be supported by all sides of the House. I am a participating member of Kerry VEC, which is probably one of the best in the country. That committee is composed of very committed and dedicated people. By a stroke of political luck four members of the Teachers' Union of Ireland were appointed to the VEC six years ago as a result of a deal made with the Minister's party and an independent candidate who has since joined that party. These four members have made an enormous contribution to the working of the VEC. I am casting no aspersions on the other members of the VEC — they are not experts in the field of education — when I say that the major contributions on most subjects have come from these people. The chairman, who is a member of the Minister's party, has often expressed the view that we are lucky to have such experts on the committee. Very often the agenda is completed in two hours and every item is discussed by people who know what they are talking about.
There are 30 VECs throughout the country which manage vocational schools, community colleges, regional technical colleges and the Dublin institutes of technology. As Deputy Higgins explained, the committees are composed of 14 persons of whom a minimum of five and a maximum of eight must be elected councillors. The balance of the representation is made up of nominees of the local authority, usually representatives of the various political parties, and this is where the problem arises. Inevitably, either defeated candidates or party workers are nominated to the VECs and to other committees, and this ruins the spirit of the committees. In many cases it adds a lot of dead wood to what could be very effective committees.
As Deputy Higgins also explained, this Bill seeks to amend the Vocational Education Act, 1930, to allow for the statutory representation of two parents and two teachers on vocational education committees. Both the Parents' Association of Vocational Schools and Community Colleges and the Teachers' Union of Ireland support the proposed Bill, and I thank them sincerely for their support. The Bill seeks to establish the statutory right of teachers and parents to be represented on the committees. I hope the Minister accepts the Bill. Neither the parents nor the teachers' unions are prepared to accept promises. They want a commitment and a guarantee. The only way they can be guaranteed representation is through the legislative process and this is an opportunity to provide for that.
It is very important that teachers are represented on VECs. They have the expertise to make a major contribution to policy making and curriculum content and development. Indeed, the TUI sought the right of representation for many years. From my experience teachers can be very effective on vocational education committees. They are chosen by the unions, probably have a record in union representation and an understanding of issues and what is relevant at a particular time. If the Minister is genuine about her commitment to involve more parents in direct decision making on education, she will provide for two representatives nominated by parents as proposed in this Bill. This would give parents a greater insight into how education is administered at local level and would enhance their knowledge and understanding of education.
As Deputy Higgins has pointed out so eloquently, the Minister promised parent representation on many occasions in recent times. Direct involvement is the order of the day, and this Bill provides an excellent opportunity for that. Parents of pupils in vocational schools and community colleges are very concerned about their children's future. At one time concerned parents were associated with secondary schools, the college or convent sector, but parents of children attending vocational schools are now very concerned about their children's future. They want to participate and be involved. That is what I have experienced in Kerry. Next Friday for the first time there will be a prize-giving ceremony at a school in Listowel for which the Minister herself provided a very important extension last year. The prizes are being awarded because parents requested that. I was being complimentary to the Minister.
Thank you. Yes, I did recognise that.
That example indicates the level of commitment and interest shown by parents in their children's education. I should certainly love to sit on a VEC, and I hope that I shall again follow the local elections——
The Deputy is full of hope for himself.
It is composed of people who directly represent parents' interests. Parents as members of a committee, being people who have an interest in respect of their children, would be more forceful on issues that affect parents directly than perhaps an ordinary member who might not be aware of such issues or might not care about them.
As Deputy Higgins pointed out, representation of teachers on the VECs is in line with the aspirations expressed in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, which seeks to extend employee participation. As Deputy Higgins has already dealt with that point, I shall not pursue it at length. Employee participation was one of the central themes of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress document. The Government could now make that aspiration a reality. In education there is no place more appropriate than the VECs in which to give that participation to employees, to those who administer education, and impart knowledge. The proposal would also give a major boost to the VECs, who have made great strides in the tackling of education problems at all levels throughout the years since 1913 and especially in recent times. Direct involvement in the VECs by parents representing the consumers of education and by teachers representing the central figures in education, themselves, would help the VECs to continue in the expansion of their services to the public.
I should be amazed if the Minister rejected this forward-thinking proposal. That would be most unfortunate. In keeping with the spirit demonstrated by the Government in accepting Deputy Shatter's Bill, the Minister should do likewise tonight, and thus endear herself to the parents and the teachers. That is something that she has, so admirably, tried to do at times.
I am overcome by all the compliments, but I shall do my best to cope with them.
(Interruptions.)
No, I shall not succumb. First, I thank Deputy Jim Higgins for bringing forward the Bill and providing the House with the opportunity to debate education. I have always maintained that the House has too few such opportunities. The fact that there will be four nights of debate on education laid out in specified time is in itself a very good thing, no matter what the eventual outcome of the Bill. The commitment shown by Deputy Higgins and Deputy Deenihan to the cause of education and to its debate is admirable. I do not wish anything that I might say to take from that, because I genuinely mean it. In the House questions, adjournment debates and general debates are laced with much commonsense, good ideas as well as lots of argy-bargy.
Deputy Higgins said that teachers in the counties that had teacher representation were usually teachers who followed the persuasion of the political party in power. That is not so. As Members have all paraded their own counties, let me parade my own county. In County Westmeath there has for many years been a teacher representative nominated by the TUI, not by any political party. In fact, the same representative was nominated in the time of the Fine Gael Government — as Deputy McGrath will know — and in the time of the Fianna Fáil Government.
Deputy Higgins contended that in bringing forward the Bill he was not being political, but I would dispute that point. Anybody who brings forward a measure such as this within four weeks of local elections is obviously being political, in the correct meaning of the term. Deputy Higgins took the meaning of the term as being party political, but I take the correct English translation of the word "political".
The Deputy said that the Bill was a clear, simple, uncomplicated, non-prescriptive Bill. I shall show clearly, on the legal advice that has been obtained — the best legal advice in the country — that the Bill is precisely the opposite of that description. He also claimed that when each VEC was in situ after the local elections it would remain static for the next five years. That is not so, and I shall elaborate on that point later.
Although Deputy Higgins said the Bill was simple and clear, before he had finished his Second Stage speech he had already proposed two startling amendments. It is completely at variance for any proposer of a Bill to say that it is clear, simple and non-prescriptive but then to put forward two startling amendments to it being concluding their Second Stage speech.
On a point of order, what I did say was that I would consider such amendments only in the event of the measure not being acceptable to the Minister.
Well, the Deputy put forward two startling amendments and it struck me as showing a rather odd enthusiasm for the Bill. However, I shall take it in the light of what he has said, but my speech will cover that issue, anyway.
Deputy Deenihan, as a long term member of a very valued and valuable VEC, spoke of his commitment to the Kerry VEC and related what has happened there. I am well acquainted with the way in which members of that VEC do their business; of the many demands they make, correctly, upon central Government, and of the way that they seem never to take "No" for an answer. I have met them recently about their various activities in Causeway, Cahirciveen, Kinsale and other places. Yes, they are very active. Those I met from the deputations — who, I think, were two of the people mentioned by the Deputy — were also very active and put forward their brief with great acumen.
I thank the Minister.
The debate on this Bill will highlight once again the importance of representation of all concerned interests in the education decision-making process. This is something to which I am deeply committed and it gives me the chance to detail to the House my views on partnership in the education process.
My goodness, I never before had the effect of emptying the House.
I was called out. I must apologise to the Minister.
All right. I listened to the Deputy and his plámás.
Please do not take offence.
The Bill is a very short one which seeks to give representation in VECs for two parents and two teachers. I am in sympathy with the thinking behind the proposals in the Bill, but on the best legal advice available to me the Bill is flawed and inoperable. I should be glad to show this legal advice privately to the Opposition spokesperson at any time he wishes to see it.
Membership of VECs is governed by the terms of section 8 of the Vocational Education Act, 1930. Under the terms of the Act membership of VECs consists of 14 members, or more where the vocational education area contains one or more urban districts which were not scheduled urban districts under the Act.
The Act further provides that not less than five and not more than eight members of the VEC shall be members of the electing county council. There is scope, therefore, for the election to the VEC of up to nine persons who are not members of the relevant county council. In electing such persons the local authority shall have regard, among other things, to the interest and experience in education of the persons it proposes for election.
It will be seen, therefore, that considerable scope exists for the election of persons, including parents and/or teachers, to the VECs without recourse to amending legislation.
The basic intent of section 1 of the proposed Bill is wholly incompatible with the existing provisions of the 1930 Act which it proposes to amend. As it stands, it proposes that VECs shall consist of "(a) not less than two parents..." and "(b) not less than two teachers...". In other words, each VEC will be composed not only in this way. This totally ignores the existing provisions relating to the composition of VECs which are explicitly spelled out in the 1930 Act.
To achieve what the drafter of the Bill apparently wants to achieve, the Bill would have to provide that in addition to the membership already specified in the Act there should also be additional membership not less than two of which will be parents, etc. and not less than two of which will be teachers, etc. Therefore the provision is fundamentally flawed and inoperable.
The use of the phrase "not less than two ..." in the proposed new section (3A) (a) and (b) means there would be no limit to the number of parents or teachers which would make up the membership of the VECs. It allows for the possibility of ten, 20, 50 or any number of parents or teachers. Contrast, for example, with the existing provision of section 8 (2) which specified that there shall be 14 members of the Committee "of whom not less than five nor more than eight shall be persons who are members of such Council". Flaws in this are obvious.
Since the Bill proposes only a minimum and not a maximum number of parents and teachers to be members of the VEC, who is to decide the actual number of parents or teachers? No one or any group of persons is given power to decide this in the proposed legislation. This was one of the matters which was brought strongly to my attention by my legal advisers. Therefore, nobody has power to decide whether membership should consist of the minimum two in each case or more.
There are many other serious flaws in the way the Bill is drafted, including the format of elections — first past the post or proportional representation — or the termination of appointments of teachers/parents representatives. For example a teacher could be on the VEC for ten or 20 years with no opportunity for altering the membership.
I do not wish to labour the drafting inadequacies of the Bill. However, I hope the Deputy will accept that the Bill as drafted is fundamentally unsound. Indeed, it is not possible to redress these deficiencies by simple amendments. Fundamental policy issues have not been thought through sufficiently.
Naturally, as Minister for Education, I must ensure that legislation is fundamentally sound and not open to challenge in the courts. This Bill would not only be open to major continuing challenges but is basically inoperable.
The Programme for Economic and Social Progress emphasised the importance of the role of parents in the education of their children and recognised the promotion of parental involvement in the education of their children as an essential strategy of educational policy and practice.
In pursuance of this commitment, I recently sent a letter to the authorities of all schools, both primary and post-primary, asking the authorities to take whatever steps are necessary to establish a parents' association in connection with each school where none existed.
In the course of this letter I pointed out that parents have a right to be assured that their children's needs are being met by the school and that parents, as a body, are entitled to know whether the school and the education system are meeting children's needs.
The National Parents' Council, consisting of primary and post-primary tiers, have provided representation for parents as partners in education on various Government appointed bodies. Through their representative function, the council are making a most valuable contribution to the central planning and policy development in education. In the letter to which I have referred, I suggested that an individual school's parents association should affiliate to the appropriate tier of the National Parents' Council. As Deputy Deenihan pointed out, for many years now parents have been represented on boards of management of primary schools and community schools along with teachers.
These developments signify the increasing recognition of the role of parents in the education of their children. I have spared no effort to bring this message home and I am sure the House will freely acknowledge my enthusiasm for the involvement of parents in the management of the educational system. My first concern is that they be involved where it really counts, and that is at the level of the individual school itself, where the decisions are taken with regard to running that school. I have yet to meet either parent or teacher who disagrees with that. Decisions are taken on the local board of management. It makes sense that devolution of power should be where the influence of parents and professionals can be clearly recognised and amplified.
Teachers will readily acknowledge, I am sure, that they are afforded every opportunity of having their views represented. The negotiations on the Programme for Economic and Social Progress provide a good example of this. The three teacher unions were engaged in all the discussions on the education aspects of the programme. The programme represents a consensus on educational policy reached between the teachers' unions and the Government and I would like to take this opportunity to acknowledge again the positive contibution made by the teachers in ensuring that education was one of the main priority areas for attention in the programme.
There is not a council, a committee or a working party established under my Department's aegis which does not have teacher representation on it so that the teachers' viewpoints are clearly represented and enunciated in respect of every educational development.
When dealing with worker participation in VECs, the Bill appears to be deficient as it limits representation and fails to involve other staff employed by VECs. I know that is rectified in an amendment about second and third level colleges, but it has been put to me that there are other unions involved with other staffs in the VECs who also seek inclusion. The people in those unions give very good service and many of the schools and colleges would not be able to operate properly were there not such dedicated members of other public service unions on their staffs.
When the former Deputy Hussey was Minister for Education, in the July following the local elections she wrote to local authorities about parental representation. Prior to the local elections I will write to each local authority reiterating my commitment to meaningful parent/teacher involvement in education decision making. In this context I will bring to their attention the desirability that the membership of each vocational education committee should include a representative of teachers and parents of pupils attending their schools.
As the House is aware, I will shortly be introducing two Bills in relation to VEC third level colleges — one covering the Regional Technical Colleges, the other covering Dublin Institute of Technology. These Bills, among many other provisions, will propose formal staff representations on the governing bodies of the Regional Technical Colleges and the Dublin Institute of Technology.
The House will be aware that I will be publishing later in the year a Green Paper on education which will deal with all important issues in the education field. The Green Paper will provide the opportunity for those interested in education to consider and debate the issues and to express to me their views on the various aspects of education. This wide-ranging debate will provide the background to the issuing of a White Paper and, later, will culminate in the provision of an Education Bill. I have no doubt that one of the issues to be debated will be the role and membership of VECs in the future.
While not wishing in any way to preview the contents of the proposed Green Paper, I have spoken recently to the annual conference of the Irish Vocational Education Association on what I see as the important elements to be contained in a post primary school of the future.
Each school will have a board of management who will be responsible for the running of the schools. This policy is based on the premise that the State should take only those decisions it needs to take and that all other administrative decisions should, as far as possible, be passed to the school. Local management of schools is a central plank of education reform in many countries and is based on the conviction that decision making at a local level with parental and community involvement, when backed up by control over resources, will lead to a better service.
I spoke very clearly to the Irish Vocational Education Association in relation to the management of schools. I said that they would be the deciding body for the activities of that school and that if it was a vocational school it would be a sub-committee who would do their business in a proper fashion. I want to have teachers, parents and local democratically elected people on that committee. I cannot stress how important it is to recognise that they will have responsibility for their own school. There are 38 VECs who vary in nature. The town of Wexford VEC comes to mind. They run a fine school and they were well able to lobby me in a proper fashion. VECs vary from that to those who run a huge number of schools or colleges at third level. Therefore, on a large committee, parents' and teachers' representatives at the seat of power — as it will be perceived in the VECs — would not have very much impact on their individual schools if it was a far flung and diverse scheme. They would not have a sufficient "hands on" approach in relation to their own school and I do not think their concerns could be properly expressed, promulgated and thought through under this legislation.
VECs have a big range of other activities and the Opposition Bill is limited because it is concerned with second level schools only. I know an amendment is now proposed to take in third level colleges but there are many other activities in which teachers and parents are involved. There is a huge growth in back to school activities which cannot really be related to second level or VEC level. People are coming back for a second chance; Youthreach caters for the early drop-out and VTOS caters for people who, for one reason or another, are unemployed and want to get back to furthering their certificate type examination, sitting formal examinations and, thankfully, going on to third level. There are also sports activities under the aegis of VECs; there are community and training workshops and the disadvantaged areas of speciality. These are huge areas of responsibility and the VECs, under the 1930 Act, took them very seriously, expanded on them and responded to the flexible needs of the community. They are not catered for in the Bill and there is far more scope for a much wider debate in this area.
The questions which I posed recently to the conference of the Irish Vocational Education Association — the representatives of the VECs — were what form of authority should be delegated to the individual school and its board of management to enable them to discharge their delegated responsibilities and what is the nature of the broader role and control function to be performed by the VEC — in relation to their schools and the multiplicity of educational and training services within their respective areas. These issues will be further and publicly debated. These issues will, as I have stated, be addressed in the Green Paper and will be debated at length as a result.
The questions of school management and where the authority for management will lie and who is to exercise that authority are, therefore, at issue at this point. The introduction now of this Bill is premature.
I welcome this debate about partnership in education and have always advocated it. What I say is that this is part of a wider picture. We should await the Green Paper and the debate which will follow it before making any decisions on matters affecting school management and administration. The introduction of the Bill, apart from it being, according to my legal advice, inoperable and flawed, is premature. We must look to the future school structure and to legislation which will govern it rather than tinker with existing legislation.
The Programme for Economic and Social Progress reiterates the central role of parents in education, which was freely stated by the Opposition in putting forward the Bill. I acknowledge, welcome and endorse it and indeed always pursued it. I was glad to give expression to it by way of financial commitment, which was welcomed by the parents' associations. The teachers are integrally involved in all aspects of decision-making. They were key players in the negotiation for the education package in the programme.
A Green Paper is currently being prepared for publication this autumn which will open for debate further key issues in education. One of its key purposes will be to involve all the partners including, obviously, parents and teachers, in a full and open debate on the future strategic direction of our educational system. Therefore, it is clear that, in future, the position of membership will not be final and static but can be altered in a planned, logical and correct legal fashion.
It is extremely important that I make it clear that I and the Government, who are committed to implementing the proposals contained in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress agreed with the social partners, are in sympathy with the thinking behind the proposals in the Bill but, on the best legal advice available to me, I again repeat that the Bill is flawed and inoperable. However, as I said at the outset, it presents us with an opportunity to have a reasoned and open debate over four nights on education. While we must confine ourselves to dealing with vocational education there is much we can speak about praise, challenge and improve on but the one thing that we cannot improve on is the quality of our teachers and their commitment to their cause and the lively interest of parents in their children's future. I want to further this and in pursuing this aim I will introduce a Green Paper and enshrine in a proper legal framework what Deputy Higgins has put forward.
I compliment Deputy Higgins for bringing this Bill before the House as it provides us with an opportunity to debate two very important matters in education the first of which is industrial democracy in relation to teachers and the second the need for meaningful parental involvement in the education of their children.
I was taken aback by the Minister's statement that even though she is in sympathy with the thinking behind the proposals in the Bill, on the best legal advice available to her the Bill is flawed and inoperable. I would also like her to clarify what she meant by her statement "indeed, it is not possible to redress the dificiencies by simple amendments." What I would like to know is whether it will be possible to redress them by way of more complex amendments put forward by either the Government or the Opposition.
That is what Committee Stage is all about.
I am asking the Minister to clarify what she meant by that statement. If changes are not made now it will take a minimum of five years and a maximum of seven years to introduce them. The question I am asking is whether the Minister is amenable to the suggestion that discussions be held as the debate progresses to reach agreement so as to ensure that the principles enshrined in the Bill before the House, which the Labour Party agree with, are given effect. We have to be pragmatic, the Bill will not reach Committee Stage unless the Government agree to it on Second Stage. However, with good will an all sides, the Vocational Education Act, 1930, can be amended to reserve places for teachers and parents.
Deputy Higgins dealt with two matters during the course of his contribution about which I am concerned, the first of which is that the Bill deals only with second level education and not with third level education. He also said he would be prepared, if the Bill reaches Committee Stage, to introduce changes. I wish to instance the position in the two vocational education committees of which I am a member. The agreed representative of the TUI regional college branch and the city branch, which represent the two second level schools, on the City of Waterford Vocational Education Committee is a third level lecturer. If the Bill is enacted in its present form I would be concerned that that person would not be able to act as one of the teacher representatives.
He will be able to do so under the RTC Bill on the board of management of the college.
That will be the case in respect of the board of management of the college but will not be the case in respect of the vocational education committees.
They will be their own bosses.
We have learned something tonight.
The Deputy should not encourage the Minister to be out of order.
I will pass on that one, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.
I am easily encouraged.
I would also like to consider — this matter was addressed by Deputy Higgins — whether there is merit in the argument that we should extend the membership of the vocational education committees. I would, once again, like to instance the position in the City of Waterford Vocational Education Committee. It has long been the tradition that the representatives of the Waterford Council of Trade Unions and the Waterford Chamber of Commerce and the nominees of the Catholic and Church of Ireland Bishop's be members of the committee. A place is also reserved for the TUI representative. The same is true in the case of County Waterford Vocational Education Committee.
The point I am trying to make is that as the vocational education system has advanced great advances have been made at the interface of industry and commerce and the vocational educational system. It is also important that the social partners get involved. In Waterford the local authority invite the council of trade unions and the chamber of commerce to participate and in the case of County Waterford Vocational Education Committee a couple of national teachers in the catchment area of vocational schools are also members of the committee. Quite frankly, I do not want to know what their politics are, they are good people who have contributed well and have done a very fine job during my time on the vocational education committee. My concern is that four out of the possible six places——
Debate adjourned.