Private Members' Business. Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Boylan

I am delighted the Minister for Education is present — the Minister of State is also welcome — to listen to the debate. I hope, as I requested her to do, that over the weekend she reconsidered her decision with regard to the proposal put forward by my colleague, Deputy Higgins, whom I compliment for introducing the Bill. The Bill has received the support of a wide range of interested parties. I have no doubt it has the support of the Minister's party, if not the Government. I hope she will not act like a spoiled child and sulk because she did not think of the idea. She should be generous and big-hearted in responding to the proposal. I cannot accept the advice — I am sure the Minister does not accept it either — of the Minister's legal advisers that it is not possible to implement the Bill as it stands. If the Minister's legal advisers cannot overcome this obstacle I suggest that she should sack them as it is obvious they do not have much ability. There is no major obstacle in the way of implementing the Bill.

There is much to commend the Bill. It seeks to ensure that parents and teachers are represented on vocational education committees. In her contribution on Wednesday last the Minister stated that the Programme for Economic and Social Progress emphasised the importance of the role of parents in the education of their children and recognised the promotion of parental involvement in the education of their children as an essential strategy of educational policy and practice. I could not agree more. If the Minister is serious then she should implement the proposals contained in the Bill introduced by Deputy Higgins.

I am a great admirer of the vocational education system and I am chairman of the Cavan parents group. Therefore, I am aware of what the system has to offer. It is one of the leaders in education. It has set headlines which have been followed by the private colleges which I support and which have a role to play. The competition between the vocational education system and the private colleges is healthy in that it keeps teachers on their toes. Parents at this time of the year ask themselves the big question where will they send their children — to the vocational school or to the private college. The choice is theirs. However, some people have adopted the attitude that the vocational education system caters for certain children only — children considered to be slow——

Minister for Education (Mrs. O'Rourke)

It should not be.

Mr. Boylan

——or children from a certain section of society. I disagree totally. Children from all sections of society should avail of this system. For this reason I am annoyed that people in public life seek places on vocational education committees but would not send their children to vocational schools as they do not consider those schools to be good enough. However, they like the privilege of being members of vocational education committees so that they can make statements and pronouncements, advocate how the schools should be run and be quoted in the press. I am annoyed that parents who are prepared to send their children to vocational schools are not represented on the committees.

Who understands the needs of children more than the teachers or their parents? They should have an input in the committees. I suggest to the Minister that she take on board the proposal put forward by Deputy Higgins in the interests of the vocational education system, the students attending those schools and the parents who support them. The Minister should ensure that they are represented on the committees who decide on the courses and finance for a particular school.

I am glad to say, having mentioned already my local vocational school in Cavan, that we now have a third level centre in Cavan town which is second to none. It offers industralists and business people, students who are highly qualified in the areas of office management and computers. A pre-nursing course is now on offer. Those who complete a two year course at the College of Further Studies in Cavan town under the umbrella of the vocational education system are given the option of moving on to Athlone to do the diploma course.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Athlone RTC is delighted to sponsor them.

Mr. Boylan

I am delighted to see that the Minister and I are in agreement. I hope she will be generous and big hearted and say, even though she did not think of the idea herself, that she accepts that it is a good one, and is prepared to take it on board. If there are any minor problems these can be overcome. Having got to know the Minister I expect her to do this. She is a good Minister for Education and I am sure she will respond in a positive way.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

Cuirim fáilte roimh an díospóireacht seo faoin mBille Gairmoideachais (Leasú) 1991. Tugann sé seans dúinn uilig sa Dáil seo an córas gairmoideachais sa Stát a anailiú agus ár dtuairimí agus ár smaointe a chur os comhair an Aire.

I welcome the Bill because it provides us with an opportunity to debate education. Indeed, one should welcome any opportunity to debate any aspect of education, be it primary, second level or third level. This debate presents us with an opportunity to focus our attention on current educational issues and to ask where we are going in education. However, I have one problem with the Bill even though I commend its principle. Deputy Boylan spoke about the commitment of parents to the vocational education system and the perceptions that some people have of vocational education. He also said he is aware of some members of vocational education committees who, despite their public pronouncements, do not seem to have any faith in the vocational education system. That has not been my experience in Dublin. I am delighted to see Deputy Mac Giolla in the House as he is a very active and committed member of the committee of which I am a member.

I wish to say to Deputy Higgins, and those on the other side of the House, that everyone supports the principle of teacher and parental involvement in the decision-making process. Certainly, this side of the House support it. The Minister should be commended for the manner in which she has promoted this principle in recent years. She has made public statements and issued circular letters on this matter. I am aware of this from my dealings with primary, vocational and voluntary second level schools. She also supports very strongly the idea of parent associations. As Deputy Boylan rightly pointed out, the Government underlined their commitment in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. There is no doubt that they stand full square behind the Minister.

In recent years parents have become much more interested in education and in the progress their children and their teenagers are making in the educational system. They have shown an acute awareness of what is required for the delivery of the service and this is demonstrated most clearly by their attendance at parent-teacher meetings. I was delighted to attend parent-teacher meetings over the past five years. Indeed, I had to queue for up to two to three hours, and the parents were prepared to sit and wait to meet with the relevant teacher to find out about their children's progress. It is great to see parents taking a deep interest in how the system is working, in the quality of the service and how it is meeting their children's requirements to go out and take their place in society, whether to follow an academic career or to meet the challenges of the world at large.

It is only logical and sensible that greater facilities be made available for parental participation in education at both primary and post-primary level. Perhaps it was the realisation of the need for a role for parents and teachers in decision making that prompted Deputy Higgins to bring this Bill before us, but although I have a tremendous regard for Deputy Higgins, and other members of the teaching profession with whom he is associated, I think the focus of the Bill is too narrow. Apart from the problems the Minister outlined — I believe she consulted with the best legal advice and was told the Bill was flawed and inoperable — I can see difficulties in the operation of the Bill from my experience as a member of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee. The perspective of the Bill is quite narrow. The City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee support parental and teacher involvement in the decision making process. I am sure the Bill intends to deal with these areas where it is perceived that there is not enough parental involvement.

The City of Dublin VEC are very limited in terms of the totality of the service but they provide a service to the Dublin city community: there is a rapidly increasing proportion of post-leaving certificate students in the second level schools, and the statistics will prove that; they also provide a prison education service and administer six third level colleges. In fact the City of Dublin VEC are way ahead of what Deputy Higgins proposes. There are student groups in our second level schools because it was decided that the many students in post-leaving certificate courses should have an input into the decision making in the schools. The prison education service is being encouraged to look at ways and means of coming up with ideas to further enhance and make more efficient the type of service being delivered to prisoners. A school psychological service and a huge adult education programme is provided. All these areas can be looked at because they are part of the totality of the service that the City of Dublin VEC deliver to the community.

The best legal advice indicates that the Bill is flawed. I might add that it deals with a very small and decreasing part of the totality of the service provided by the vocational education system. There are also problems, as the Minister has outlined, in the selection of parent and teacher representatives. I do not want to go into this point as the Minister has covered it quite adequately but we must ask who will control the system, who will draw up the register of electors, and who will monitor the system overall.

The Bill refers to the amendment of section 8 of the Vocational Education Act, 1930, by the insertion of subsection (3B) which proposes a formula of words for the cessation of membership of parent and teacher representatives on the vocational education committee. I believe that the draftsperson who formulated this did so in a weak fashion because it is quite possible to envisage a situation where parents and teachers could continue as members of the VEC for an indefinite period. I do not think this is very democratic. Part of the great strength of the VEC system is the democratic principle enshrined in the 1930 Act. Parents and teachers could continue to be representatives for a long number of years if, for example, in the case of parents, their children are students within the system and, in the case of teachers, they continue to be employed on the staff in the VEC area. I cannot see any provision in subsection (3B) which overcomes that problem but perhaps I could be enlightened. This is a very difficult problem.

When I first looked at this Bill I was immediately prompted to examine the existing situation in the VEC. Obviously we all look to the committees we have worked with, or the most contiguous ones. I analysed how we had decided on the composition of the Vocational Education Committee in 1985. Believe it or not, there are seven teachers on the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committees from primary, secondary, vocational and third level both university and third level vocational colleges, three members from industry — and I will speak about them later — three very experienced trade unionists and a student representative. I have included Deputy Mac Giolla in a number of categories because as Members are well aware, he is very experienced at trade union and other levels. Members can make a wide ranging contribution and there is an abundance of talents and skills available to the committee. I believe the overall contribution is very effective and analytical and members are always looking at ways and means of doing things more efficiently and in the best interest of delivering a service to our students.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Quill and Deputy Davern.

Acting Chairman (Mrs. Barnes)

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. L. Fitzgerald

The Minister has the right focus in relation to devolution. The principle of the Bill means looking to other partners in education to devolve to them powers to participate. We must look to local boards of management and devolve to them real powers and responsibilities for making decisions at local level. Committees can be important co-ordinating bodies but boards of management must have the powers to enable them to make decisions.

I welcome the decision to publish a Green Paper in the autumn. The principles behind this Bill will be much more meaningfully and substantially addressed by making the case subsequent to the publication of that Green Paper. I look forward to the substantial debate which will follow, leading to a White Paper. I am convinced that the future for educational reform will be addresed in a wide ranging debate to examine the real meaning of devolution in the delivery of educational services. That devolution will look towards localised boards of management where real decisions should be made.

Miss Quill

It is of some significance that we in Dáil Éireann are debating a key educational issue on the opening day of the main State examinations, the group, intermediate and leaving certificate examinations which started this morning. I am sure I speak for everybody here when I send our best wishes to all those taking the examinations. It is a tough time for students and they have the backing of all of us.

My party have no difficulty in giving full support to the aims and objectives of this Bill. We have nothing but sympathy for what this Bill sets out to do. Until recent times parents have been a wasted resource in the formal education process. Any measure that would seek to enable parents to play a more meaningful role in our education system should be encouraged and supported. Many significant strides have been made in recent years. The growth of the National Parents Council is a good example and a vast improvement. The emphasis put on the development of a more formal, active and dynamic role for parents in education in the PESP gives grounds for further optimism. The proposal to provide an annual grant of £25,000 to support the work of the National Parents Council is concrete evidence of the intention of this Minister to support parents groups in every practical way possible. I commend the Minister on that but much more remains to be done.

This debate has taken the matter one step further. The excellent contributions made by the proposer of this Bill and by subsequent speakers have helped to crystallise the issues even further and pave the way for further progress. I have today received a clear assurance from the Minister that this week she has written to all the county councils asking that they specifically be mindful of the need in the composition of the new VECs to include representatives of parents and teachers. She has made a very strong recommendation to that effect and I have no doubt that the recommendation will not be ignored. There is scope within the 1930 Act for the inclusion of representatives of parents and teachers. I am a member of the city of Cork VEC to which representatives of parents and teachers have been formally selected. They have a meaningful role to play in deliberations.

I have no doubt that the cross-party agreement which has been expressed in this debate will contribute to significant change in the composition of the incoming VECs. That must be welcomed. The debate which started last week has played a role in bringing about that situation.

I am equally confident that the principle contained in this Bill will be more forcefully and more comprehensively advanced in the context of the debate that will derive from the impending Green Paper. For all its merits, this Bill is much too narrowly focused. Proper provision must be made for the inclusion of parents and teachers, the main practitioners in the field, at every level of education. The ultimate objective must be to ensure that parents and teachers are adequately and formally represented on the board of management of every school. That will be brought about in the forthcoming Education Bill. Debate in the context of the Green Paper will give all of us a fresh opportunity to advance the argument. I am fully confident that legislation will be put in place which will enable the aims and objectives of this Bill to be realised not only in the context of VECs but at every level of education.

For that reason the Progressive Democrats will not be voting in favour of this Bill. We are fully convinced that the objectives will be taken on board, extended and expanded upon and fully implemented in the context of the Education Bill. Legal reasons have been outlined by the Minister as to why we would not be supporting the Bill in any case. I am optimistic that the aims and objectives of this Bill will be met in the context of legislation due in the immediate future.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Davern has until 7.37 p.m.

Mr. Davern

That is probably more than Cork would give us at the Munster final when we beat them.

I am not complaining. I am just saying it is a little opportunistic. There is a Green Paper coming forward and the Fine Gael Bill, as the Minister rightly pointed out, is inadequate in its provisions for representatives. However, there are a number of other inadequacies in it that need to be looked at in a Green Paper, and one is the rights of parents. Many members of the VEC, while not elected as parent representatives, are parents and obviously their views come across. We all have a great respect for parents and their total understanding of the system. They are vital to it because they are the fund raisers. They are the people who should have an input in this area because it is their children who attend the schools. They can be a great help to the VEC, but provision for their representation on the committee must be properly formulated and put down as a legal proposition. Also every school should have a parents association. At the moment there are quite a number of schools who do not and that needs to be addressed. The Minister has encouraged every school to set up such a committee.

In regard to the suggestion that two parents should be on the committee, I would be thrilled if that were the case. When I became a member of the vocational education committee I stopped reports coming forward every month to the effect that such and such a teacher had a day off because his aunt died or because he had a pain in his head or his house burned or whatever. I stopped that system of circulating such reports to all the members of the committee because those are personal matters.

The appointment of teachers has been criticised in this House. I am chairman of a board of interviewers and I can assure the House — and our chief executive officer will stand over it — that any appointment we have made in the last number of years has, in our best judgment, been to the benefit of the VEC. I decry this assertion that politicians do not have the judgment to decide something. I see this continually and it is aimed at taking away the power from local democracy. It is a constant cry that is continuing.

A power I want to see coming in, and which is vital, is the power to dismiss a teacher who is not coming up to standard, who is not playing the game, who is not enhancing the chances in life of the children. That power does not exist at present. The vast majority of teachers, 90 per cent, are perfect but, as in any walk of life, there will be the few who are not. I am aware of many instances, particularly the one where there is a legal dilemma of a teacher having been suspended for three years. Neither he, the committee or the Department can move and that person is totally unsuited to be involved in education. If there is a system of appointments there must be a system of dismissal. God knows we, in this House, know how easy it is to be dismissed on any occasion. We have seen colleagues dismissed over the years, and that is the will of the people. However, we need to introduce a system where there can be a review of teachers, particularly if a teacher has a problem with teaching.

More and more people teaching in vocational schools are taking in disadvantaged children not only because the other schools reject them but because they want to take them in, because they are the school system that believes in promoting education and has the widest space in which those children can expand whatever abilities they have. That is all the more reason we need to ensure that the teachers of the most disadvantaged children are the best so that those children will have come chance in life, some chance to develop the qualities they have. While recognising that teachers must be represented on the board, a corollary to that must also be that those teachers should recognise that some of their colleagues, a very small minority, are not living up to the required standard and need to be dismissed. A system to allow for that must be included in the Green Paper.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Tá mé ag roinnt mo chuíd ama a thabhairt leis an Teachta Tomás Mac Giolla agus leis an Teachta McGrath anseo.

Acting Chairman

An bhfuil sé sin aontaithe? Agreed.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): A Chathaoirligh, is cúis áthais dom go bhfuil an Bille seo os ár gcomhair anseo anocht mar tá sé thar am go mbeadh áit faoi leith ag tuismitheoirí agus ag múinteoirí sa chóras oideachais. Tugann an Bille an deis sin don Aire agus tá suil agam go nglacfaidh sí leis. Tréaslaím do mo chairde anseo a chuir an Bille seo os ár gcomhair.

Despite what Deputy Davern said about being opportunistic or some such thing, and despite the fact that he criticised my party for having a system in the VEC that was the same as his party's, it would be dreadful if we in this House got completely paralysed and never did anything. I hope Deputy Davern will never be a selector on the Tipperary team when Cork are beating them because he will never make a switch. He will play the same team right to the finish.

The pious platitudes of the Opposition during the debate on this Bill were unbelievable. The teachers are the best in the country and so are the parents and they all deserve the best, but for some strange reason, the Bill cannot be amended because it is flawed. Since I was elected to this House every Bill introduced has been amended from the most serious Bill to the most trivial. It is unacceptable for the Minister to I say she cannot agree to the Bill because she could not amend it.

The Bill seeks to provide for at least two representatives. The Minister in her speech said that could be ten, 20 or 50 and luckily enough she stopped at 50. What is wrong with the Minister putting in a simple amendment providing for not more than two? There is nothing magic about amending Bills that come before this House. All the wonderful speeches from the Government side about teachers and parents amount to hypocrisy when it comes to the crunch and nothing happens. The Progressive Democrats support the Bill, but they cannot support it. Deputy Fitzgerald supports it but he cannot support it. Everybody wants the Bill but nobody can support it. Is it not incredible in this day and age to hear that nonsense in the House? Our VECs consist of some people who are very dedicated, who are experts in education and who have spent their lifetime contributing to education. We have to admit there are people on VECs who are not really interested in education and are there for reasons I will not go into, but when we say we cannot see our way to giving two places to parents and two places to teachers there is something radically wrong.

There is a song and dance made about the parents. We are asked, how will we arrange the voting for the election of parents? It was put to me that I would find it very difficult if we had that system in Carlow. I was asked if we would head off to Donegal to get the parents there to vote in the election of two parents in Carlow. Is it terribly difficult to know what parents would vote for their VEC representatives in their own county and their own region? Could anything be more silly than seeing difficulty in that or in who will run the election, who will count the votes, or where they will be counted? Has anything be trivialised as much as this Bill has been by Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats?

I find it incredible that the Minister refuses to face reality. It boils down to a cliché, either put up or shut up. The Minister is faced with that dilemma. No matter how much praise she lavishes on parents and teachers, no matter what she is going to do in a Green Paper or even a Browne paper, if she does not accept this Bill she will be seen clearly to be playing around with words, a trick-o-the-loop act, saying one thing and doing another. It is time she acknowledged the role of parents and teachers properly by accepting this Bill. If she does not accept it and say she will amend its flaws, then the parents, the teachers and those who are backing this Bill will see her attitude for what it is, a charade.

As I sat listening to the debate I could not help thinking of Saint Augustine who said, "Lord, make me pure not just yet". Members on the Government side must have learned that phrase and paraphrased it because they are saying, "Lord, give us representation but not just yet". I do not know why. Maybe the Lord will speak to them at some stage. I hope sincerely there has been a change of mind since the Minister made her speech. If there has not been she will be accused of using words that mean nothing. All that has been said ignores the important role of parents and teachers who should by right — not by the grace of a political party — be allowed to be members of a VEC. There should be definite representation for teachers and parents. As Deputy Davern said, the majority of members of VECs are parents but they do not represent a parents' committee. There may be teachers on those committees but they do not represent the teachers officially, they represent political parties.

This is a very simple Bill which should be accepted and I hope it will because hope springs eternal in the human breast.

Tomás Mac Giolla

Ba mhaith liom mo bhuíochas ghabháil leis an Teachta Browne as ucht deich noiméad a thabhairt dom sé gur chailleadh úr go leith inné.

I support the concept and general purpose behind Deputy Higgins' Bill and I agree with the general arguments he made last week in support of it. The House should agree that it is high time the practice of appointees being selected for VECs in many cases solely on the basis of their political convictions was abolished. I do not know why that continues into the nineties. There may have been reasons for it in the past, but that system is wrong. It tends to erode public confidence in the VECs, and the trust which teachers and, in some cases, parents have in it. We saw that last year when at attempt was made to change the system of appointment and have the Local Appointments Commission appoint teachers rather than the VECs. There are suspicions in people's minds as to whether the selections are made on a fair basis.

The 1930 Act is the only education Act we have. We can be proud of it because it is so flexible that more than 60 years after its enactment it is still bang up to date for the nineties as is proved every day in VECs. It has been away ahead in meeting the challenges that have faced us, particularly in the past decade or so when changes came so rapidly in the whole social system and the education system bringing about a need for alterations in curricula and teaching methods. Greater difficulties arose among children with remedial problems, psychological problems and so on in schools. The VEC system met those changes ahead of the other education system, and that was due to the foresight and vision in the 1930 Act.

As many speakers have said, the VEC system is non-selective. It is open to everybody. There is no bar, good, bad or indifferent. Every child is welcome and the system gives total equality of education to all. It is publicly accountable, non-denominational, coeducational and democratic. The democratic nature of the system is very important and I agree with Deputy Davern that it should be protected and retained. However, democracy is not a system of grabbing all. I do not know why one political group would want to have total control over the VEC system in the nineties or to dominate it. Rather than presenting a vision of democracy, that paints a picture of packed juries in the public mind. Why do parties want to pack the VEC system with their own kind? Thus raise suspicions which in most cases are unfounded. Nevertheless, it is done either to repay a political favour or for whatever reason and it is time that system was ended.

Teachers and parents are more involved in the education system, the parents through their children and the teachers through the stress and difficulties in schools and so on. It is only proper that they should have a statutory right to be represented on VECs. Third level students who attend regional technical colleges are more and more a force in the VEC system and should also be represented on VECs.

A total of eight councillors can be elected to VECs — there can be five but I do not know of any local authority who only select five; I believe they all elect eight — and this leaves only six more places to be filled. I have some doubts about the need for two parents and two teachers on each VEC because this would only leave two other places to be filled. As I said, third level students should have a representative on the VEC and, as Deputy Fitzgerald said, perhaps in time to come second level students might also need representation. A place should also be found on VECs for some other expertise, for example, a trade unionist or industrialist from the area who could contribute to the vocational education system. For that reason one parent and one teacher representative should be sufficient.

I agree that the Bill can be amended and I think the author, Deputy Higgins, agrees that it is open to amendment. If the Bill is given a Second Reading, amendments can be put down on Committee Stage. Of course, the Minister can also put down amendments because, as I said, some amendments are needed to the Bill.

There has not been any controversy about the manner of selecting the teacher representative. Presumably everyone recognises that this would be a fairly simple procedure. The teachers in the VEC system are members of the TUI and an election can be organised by each VEC to select a teacher representative for the VEC. However, there has been some controversy about how a parent should be selected and reference has been made to the great difficulties involved in electing a parent representative. Parents of students in the VEC system are members of the Parent' Association of Vocational Schools and Community Colleges. There is a parent's association in each VEC area and they are members of the National Parent's Association. This association is affiliated to the National Parents' Council where they have four members. This association is well organised and capable of organising an election for parent representation on VECs.

Some months ago in this House we debated the appointment of teachers in vocational schools. On that occasion we heard speaker after speaker on the Government side emphasise the importance of local democracy. I hope some of those speakers who will troop in here this evening will abstain and allow the Bill to go through, but I suppose that might be asking a bit much of Members on the Government benches.

I should like to refer to some of the points raised by the Minister last week, the first of which relates to the number of people appointed to VECs. My colleague, Deputy Browne, dealt with this point at length. I am disappointed that the Minister did not outline suitable amendments to the Bill. She spoke at great length about the difficulties involved in electing parents and teachers to VECs. I believe this would be possible by a simple amendment.

The Minister queried the format of elections for possible parent teacher representatives and the duration of their appointments. Surely the Minister is merely finding fault in a very petty way and eliminating what is essentially a farseeing and welcome concept of teacher and parent involvement in the education of our young people. The Minister said: "There are many other serious flaws in the Bill as it is drafted" but unfortunately she mentioned only two points and did not go on to clarify any more flaws that appeared in this Bill. Was she just saying out of a sense of frustration that she wanted to accept it but was not allowed. Both as a teacher and a parent I am aware of the important role of teachers and parents in the education of their children. Our Constitution acknowledges the role of the family as "the primary and natural educator of the child". Indeed, the Programme for Economic and Social Progress endorses the importance of parental involvement in education as follows:

Positive parental interest is crucial to a child's educational attainment. It must, therefore, be an essential strategy of educational policy and practice to promote parental involvement in the education of their children.

What Bill could emphasise and set out more clearly the thoughts expressed in that programme? The Bill, as introduced by my colleague, Deputy Jim Higgins, surely that brings that statement in the programme to fruition. Unfortunately, the Government do not seem able to accept it.

Parents are at present involved in the management of primary schools and in many secondary schools. Unfortunately, the parents of children who attend vocational schools have no such involvement, they are eliminated from this crucial role. They have no say in the ethos, control and management of their children's education. The Bill before us today can put this serious omission right, but sadly the Government are opposing it. How does this conform to their commitment to the Programme for Economic and Social Progress? Perhaps the Minister intends to introduce boards of management for individual vocational schools in her long awaited Green Paper. In her speech last week she said:

My concern is that they (the parents) be involved where it really counts and, ... that is at the level of the individual school itself.

Does this mean that she intends to set up boards of management in individual vocational schools, or perhaps she intends to curtail, amalgamate or even abolish VECs. In my own County Westmeath we have a very active and progressive vocational education committee. I must express disappointment that the Minister continues to allow the situation to exist in County Westmeath where the chief executive education officer is in an acting capacity. Unfortunately the situation is the same in eight committees throughout the country. Does this show the Minister's lack of commitment to VECs? Can she not make up her mind whether to appoint these people or to take the appropriate action? Why is she leaving them in such insecurity? I hope she will take action in this area very promptly. I am proud to say that County Westmeath VEC has a teacher nominated for the past 12 years by the TUI to represent the teachers on that board. It has worked well.

In conclusion I hope some of the Government Deputies, perhaps the Progressive Democrats, will decide that they will not pay lip service to the involvement of parents in education but that they may decide to support the Bill this evening.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Mr. F. Fahey)

I would like to compliment everybody who has been involved in this very constructive debate. Indeed, I compliment Deputy Higgins for introducing the Vocational Education (Amendment) Bill, 1991. It has proved to be a very worthwhile discussion. At the outset I want to repeat the Minister's commitment to partnership in education. More than any other Minister for Education, over the past four years she has shown in a very practical way that she wants to involve parents and teachers in every aspect of education policy. The best example is the way the parents' councils and associations from local to national level has been given a central role in both the development of education policy and the administration of education throughout the country.

Also it is fair to say that in the last four years since Deputy Mary O'Rourke became Minister for Education not one relevant committee has been formed in the Department of Education that did not have a central role for both parents and teachers. Consequently the Minister is committed to the principle and the spirit of this Bill and would be anxious to go along with the Bill if that were possible. Unfortunately it is not possible and since last week the Minister has looked again at the possibilities. It is not as simple as Deputy Browne suggested — that we would make an amendment where we would say "not less than two parents or not more than two parents".

Unfortunately, this Bill would have to be dropped and a new Bill introduced if the provisions for which the drafter wished to provide were to be taken into account because the Bill totally ignores the existing provisions relating to the composition of VECs which are explicitly spelt out in the 1930 Act. I want to quote again from the Minister's speech the reason it is not possible to make a simple amendment as has been proposed. She said:

To achieve what the drafter of the Bill, apparently wants to achieve, the Bill would have to provide that in addition to the membership already specified in the Act there should also be additional members not less than two of which will be parents, etc., and not less than two of which will be teachers, etc. Therefore, the provision is fundamentally flawed...

One must contrast this with the existing provision in section 8 (2) which specifies that there shall be 14 members of the committee "of whom not less than five nor more than eight shall be persons who are members of such Council". I want to reiterate that it is not possible to make the amendments suggested. That would only be possible if we were to drop this Bill and introduce another in its place.

Mr. Kavanagh

Why not do that?

Mr. F. Fahey

Because the Minister is anxious to accommodate the implementation of the principles in this Bill she has made a number of efforts to try so far as possible to be accommodating. It is fair to say that Deputy Higgins has given a new impetus and a new status to participation in education. He has given expression here this evening and on the last occasion to the principle of partnership in education. What is now required is that we introduce proper legislation to properly give expression to that principle. That is something the Minister is most anxious to do.

From a very practical point of view, the Minister has written to all the local authorities asking them to include, as far as possible, parents and teachers on VECs following the forthcoming election. I will quote from the letter from the Secretary of the Department of Education to each local authority as follows:

The Minister for Education, Mary O'Rourke, T.D., wishes that Vocational Education Committees be clearly seen to be democratic and representative and wishes to stress, accordingly, the desirability of parent and teacher representatives being included in the membership of such committees....

The Minister considers that each Vocational Education Committee also should have among its membership a representative of parents whose children are attending vocational schools or community colleges in the relevant Vocational Education Scheme.

In Circular Letter F.58/85 issued on 3 July, 1985, Local Authorities were requested to take account of the desirability of parent representation when electing members to Vocational Education Committees. The Minister for Education now wishes to reiterate that requests that a teachers' representative be elected to VECs in line with the policy outlined above.

I want to assure the House that if there is not a positive response to this request by the Minister, it is the Minister's intention to carry out an audit following the local elections which will indicate the number of teachers and parents who have been appointed to VECs. If following that audit it is evident that parents and teachers are not adequately represented on VECs, and if it is found that there is a need for legislation, the Minister would be prepared to have the Government consider the introduction of legislation to correct the difficulties in the Bill and give practical implementation to the principles contained in it.

The Bill has had the effect of giving all parties in the House an opportunity to voice their support for the important principle of partnership in education, particularly with regard to parents. It is fair to say that teachers have been represented in the past, albeit through their political involvement, but parents have not been represented to the degree we would like. It is important to point out that following the election in 1985 many local authorities in response to demands by the TUI, appointed to the vocational education committees teachers who were employed by the relevant committees. In Galway we appointed the TUI representative who was proposed. That person has been very active and, indeed, one of the finest members of the vocational education committee in Galway. It is Fianna Fáil's intention that teachers and parents be appointed to VECs throughout the country following the local elections.

We welcome the initiative by Deputy Higgins in this respect. I hope the principle he has put forward, albeit in a Bill which is not operable, will result in local authorities and political parties taking on board the principle we all want to see implemented. I assure the House that if that principle is not taken on board the Minister will certainly consider the introduction of legislation which will ensure adequate involvement by parents and teachers on VECs in the future.

It is rather a pity that the Bill did not address many of the wider questions that need to be addressed in vocational education. A number of very useful ideas put forward by the Minister on the future of vocational education will be discussed following the publication of the Green Paper and will be implemented in legislation following the publication of a White Paper. I would like to compliment Members who have been involved in this debate. We on this side of the House have taken on board the points made. As I said earlier, we are to the forefront in putting forward the principle of partnership and we are confident that principle will be taken on board following the elections on 27 June.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins to conclude the debate.

Mr. Garland

On a point of order, I understand that this debate is due to conclude at 8.39 p.m. and not 8.30 p.m. Is that correct?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, 8.30 p.m.

Mr. Garland

I thought an extra nine minutes were allocated. The Order Paper referred to three hours and 39 minutes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The order of the House is that the vote, if a vote is called, will be put at 8.30 p.m., and that is the order to which the Chair responds. Minutes lost en route are not the responsibility of the Chair. I must call on Deputy Higgins to conclude the debate.

Mr. J. Higgins

First, I should like to thank everybody who contributed to this Second Stage debate. There were some fine individual contributions from both sides of the House. I want to express my gratitude to Deputy Brian O'Shea for supporting the Bill on behalf of the Labour Party. As to whether the Bill should confine the teaching membership of vocational education committees to those who are members of a specific union, I gave some consideration initially to that viewpoint but, ultimately, the scope must be wide enough to include all teachers, those who are members of the Teachers' Union of Ireland, those who are not members of that union and those who are members of some other union. Due to the very responsible approach to education by the Teachers' Union of Ireland they enjoy a monopoly in this regard. They are a union who have shown a creative dominance of vocational education in vocational schools, community colleges, DIT colleges and RTCs.

Deputy O'Shea laid heavy emphasis on the vital role of parents at every level of education. I thank him for pointing out to the Minister before she left the Chamber last Tuesday that this is a Second Stage debate, a debate on the all important principle of parent and teacher participation in vocational education committees, and that the Bill could be amended on Committee Stage.

Deputy Dempsey welcomed the principle of participation outlined in the Bill, particularly the participation of parents. He said that most vocational education committees consist of one or two teachers but that the teacher members tend to focus on narrow union issues rather than broader educational issues. I disagree totally with him. This implies a blinkered siege mentality which I totally refute. Naturally, if a union related issue or an industrial relations related issue arises the member has a valuable input in that regard. To suggest that the members of the Teachers' Union of Ireland who are on VECs leave other educational considerations outside the door is demeaning to them, a slight on them and prejudices their right to sit on vocational education committees.

Deputy Dempsey said there was not enough time to get this legislation through the House. I would point out to Deputy Dempsey that last Thursday the Second Stage of the University of limerick (Dissolution of Thomond College) Bill, 1991, was introduced. That is a significant Bill in its own right involving considerable expenditure. We finished Second Stage of that Bill by 5 p.m. last Thursday and passed Committee, Report and Final Stages at 12.30 p.m. today, having dealt with these amendments. If the Minister, Deputy O'Rourke, removes the embargo on this Bill it can be through the Dáil, the Seanad and become law within three weeks.

Deputy Dempsey urged county councilors to sit down after the local elections and work out an arrangement for teacher and parent participation on VECs. This very much conforms with the Minister's idea of writing to local authorities. When the former Minister Gemma Hussey, wrote to local authorities, the present Minister's party dominated local authorities and got control of the VECs. As Deputy Mac Giolla said, very few places have been given at the time of co-options to parents and teachers. Deputy Dempsey knows that will be the case on a national scale. Some committee, indeed a minority, will possibly appoint one or two teachers and, perhaps, even a parent or two, but Deputy Dempsey knows that the vast majority of local authorities will go the old route of rewarding the party faithful. The Deputy concluded by assuring the House that the vocational education system is a very fine system. We know it is a fine system, it is the finest such system. Unfortunately, in the view of the Deputy's party, it is too fine a system to allow parents or teachers to be part of the running of the show at the highest level.

Deputy John Browne of Wexford asked whether the Bill would have been introduced if Fianna Fáil did not have the majority on most VECs. Yes, it would have been. The principles espoused in the Bill are ones to which I have felt strongly committed since I became a member of a VEC. This measure should have been introduced when the boards of management were introduced at primary school level, when we were democratising education. That would have been a logical extension and a follow-up to the principle of management boards in vocational schools and community colleges and would have been the apex of democratisation.

Deputy Browne said that if people wanted to be part and parcel of the administration, then VECs should look to people from the real world of industry. Section 8 (4) of the 1930 Act specifies that such people should be from associations or bodies of employers. They are the very people Deputy Browne is talking about, but how many of them have been elected on to VECs in order to garner their expertise? Only a very few. It is also written that such teams should include members from employees' bodies. The Bill tries to ensure that employees' bodies, members of the Teachers Union of Ireland, will be elected by right on to VECs. Unfortunately, that has not happened. The 1930 legislation states that when electing people local authorities should have regard to the experience of people involved in education.

As I said before, the Constitution prescribes the right of parents to be involved in education and the Bill seeks to give practical expression to that concept. It gives statutory, compulsory effect to the spirit of the Constitution and the spirit embodied in the 1930 legislation, because when it came to the test the interests of parents were completely sidelined in the selfish rush of the unruly to gain those valuable six or nine places.

I thank my colleagues Deputy Deenihan, Deputy Ahearn, Deputy Boylan, Deputy Browne and Deputy McGrath for their very strong advocacy of the Bill. I pay particular tribute to Deputy MacGiolla and The Workers' Party, who brought their particular breadth of experience — particularly that of Deputy MacGiolla — to the debate.

I share the teachers' and parents' combined disbelief and bewilderment at the Minister's attitude to the Bill. How could any Minister who, a mere six weeks ago, at the annual parents' conference talked in such detail about parent power, her determination to have parents throw off the shackles of inferiority, the need for parental involvement and her Government's determination to assist in that process, then turn around and deny them places on VECs by refusing this Bill a Second Stage Reading? That is beyond comprehension. It is a clear indication that the Minister does not believe that parents have yet come of age, that they are mature enough to sit down side by side on VECs with the Government's political cohorts.

Mr. Byrne

I thank the Teachers Union of Ireland both for their support and in the past week for trying from the outset to draw public attention to the need for the Bill. They are a most responsible, constructive and innovative union. They voted for the Programme for Economic and Social Progress because they understood that worker participation commitments made by the Government meant worker participation for teachers as well as those in the public service. Their expectation has been well and truly shattered.

I want to know why the Minister for Education does not want teachers on VECs by right. The people, the teachers and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions are entitled to a full explanation for othe rejection of the Bill. If the Bill is voted down at 8.30 this evening, then the matter must be raised at the central review committee. Unfortunately, however, that action would be too late because if the Bill does not go through tonight, then parents and teachers cannot be on VECs between now and 1996.

Mrs. O'Rourke

That is not so.

Mr. J. Higgins

They cannot be on VECs — the Minister had her chance. By refusing them participation in VECs the Minister is doing untold damage to relationships with teachers.

Mrs. O'Rourke

That is not so.

Mr. J. Higgins

How could any teachers' union or any teachers' group have faith or confidence in any dealings with the Minister when they are pleased to accept the spirit of the Bill, giving them two places on VECs, but have been given the proverbial back of the hand by the Minister?

The Minister made play about possible difficulties in drawing up the register of parents. That would present absolutely no difficulty, either practical or legal. The Minister knows well that the effective date of attendance at a VEC school is 30 December the previous year, and that is the way in which to find out who are the parents to be involved in the electoral process.

The Progressive Democrats have joined us, and I say to them that their constituent body is in disarray.

The Minister said that the Bill is flawed, inoperable and completely incompatible with the provisions of the 1930 legislation. I counter that by saying that we — the Labour Party, Fine Gael Party and the Teachers Union of Ireland — have received expert legal opinion that shows that the legislation could be easily amended on Committee Stage by agreeing to add four people on to existing VECs, two teachers and two parents. One simple amendment could do the business overnight.

The Bill could be passed through the House in three weeks and there could be meaningful participation for parents and teachers ad infinitum, thanks to the co-operation of this side of the House. I am very disappointed that the Minister has refused to accept the Bill. I can only concur with the note attached to the legal advice offered to the Teachers Union of Ireland, which says: “If, therefore, the Minister and her party vote down this Bill, then it will be because they oppose the Bill in its principle rather than for any technical reason.” In education the Minister has managed to do a very good “Tadgh an dá thaobh” on several occasions. This is one issue when the “Tadhg an dá taobh” strategy will not wash.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I know that.

Mr. J. Higgins

Ar thaobh amháin we have the parents and the teachers and on the other side we have the Minister. The Minister came so far tonight, but it is a pity she did not come the rest of the way, that she did not have the same courage as her peers who accepted the Adoption Bill and the Judicial Separation Bill.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 59; Níl, 71.

Tá

Ahearn, Therese.
Allen, Bernard.
Barnes, Monica.
Barry, Peter.
Bell, Michael.
Belton, Louis J.
Connor, John.
Cosgrave, Michael Joe.
Cotter, Bill.
Creed, Michael.
Currie, Austin.
D'Arcy, Michael.
Deasy, Austin.
Deenihan, Jimmy.
De Rossa, Proinsias.
Durkan, Bernard.
Enright, Thomas W.
Farrelly, John V.
Fennell, Nuala.
Finucane, Michael.
Flaherty, Mary.
Flanagan, Charles.
Foxe, Tom.
Garland, Roger.
Gilmore, Eamon.
Gregory, Tony.
Harte, Paddy.
Higgins, Jim.
Hogan, Philip.
Howlin, Brendan.
Boylan, Andrew.
Bradford, Paul.
Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
Bruton, Richard.
Byrne, Eric.
Connaughton, Paul.
Kavanagh, Liam.
Lee, Pat.
Lowry, Michael.
McCartan, Pat.
McCormack, Pádraic.
McGahon, Brendan.
McGinley, Dinny.
Mac Giolla, Tomás.
McGrath, Paul.
Mitchell, Gay.
Nealon, Ted.
Noonan, Michael.
(Limerick East).
O'Shea, Brian.
O'Sullivan, Toddy.
Pattison, Séamus.
Rabbitte, Pat.
Reynolds, Gerry.
Ryan, Seán.
Sheehan, Patrick J.
Sherlock, Joe.
Taylor, Mervyn.
Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
Timmins, Godfrey.

Níl

Ahern, Bertie.
Ahern, Dermot.
Ahern, Michael.
Barrett, Michael.
Brady, Gerard.
Brady, Vincent.
Brennan, Mattie.
Brennan, Séamus.
Browne, John (Wexford).
Calleary, Seán.
Callely, Ivor.
Clohessy, Peadar.
Connolly, Ger.
Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
Cowen, Brian.
Cullimore, Séamus.
Davern, Noel.
Dempsey, Noel.
Dennehy, John.
de Valera, Síle.
Ellis, John.
Fahey, Frank.
Fahey, Jackie.
Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
Flood, Chris.
Flynn, Pádraig.
Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
Harney, Mary.
Hillery, Brian.
Hilliard, Colm.
Jacob, Joe.
Kelly, Laurence.
Kenneally, Brendan.
Kirk, Séamus.
Kitt, Michael P.
Kitt, Tom.
Lawlor, Liam.
Lenihan, Brian.
Leonard, Jimmy.
Leyden, Terry.
Lyons, Denis.
Martin, Micheál.
McDaid, Jim.
McEllistrim, Tom.
Molloy, Robert.
Morley, P.J.
Nolan, M.J.
Noonan, Michael J.
(Limerick West).
O'Connell, John.
O'Dea, Willie.
O'Donoghue, John.
O'Keeffe, Ned.
O'Kennedy, Michael.
O'Malley, Desmond J.
O'Rourke, Mary.
O'Toole, Martin Joe.
Power, Seán.
Quill, Máirín.
Reynolds, Albert.
Roche, Dick.
Smith, Michael.
Stafford, John.
Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Dan.
Wallace, Mary.
Walsh, Joe.
Wilson, John P.
Woods, Michael.
Wyse, Pearse.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Flanagan and Boylan; Níl, Deputies V. Brady and Clohessy.

Question declared lost.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 5 Jun 1991