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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jun 1991

Vol. 409 No. 4

University of Limerick (Dissolution of Thomond College) Bill, 1991: Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 3, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That section 4 stand part of the Bill."

The section amends section 4 of the Act of 1980 by inserting paragraph (aa) which reads:

The Minister may, after consultation with the Governing Body, by order assign to the University such additional functions in relation to the education and training of teachers in accordance with such terms and conditions as may be determined from time to time by the Minister.

This is an important section in that it deals with the basis on which the teacher training college will be amalgamated with the new campus at Plassey Park. I made the point during the course of my Second Stage contribution last week that there is a need to extend where possible the concurrency modules to ensure there is hands on involvement together with training; in other words, there should be on-the-spot training in the classroom.

This should be the norm within the existing faculties in the University of Limerick. As we are aware, they get a tremendous grinding in the various disciplines where an innovative approach has been adopted by the principal of the college, Dr. Walsh. I think the principle of concurrency, as recommended in an article by John Lowe in a recent OECD observer report should be extended where possible.

I presume that is envisaged in the Bill. It will be almost impossible to provide teacher training in the new university if this practice is not continued. It is not spelled out in the Bill as such but I presume it is taken for granted.

That is so. If I understand Deputy Higgins correctly, he is concerned to ensure that the current practices will be continued in the teacher training section of the new university when Thomond College is dissolved. He has suggested that there is a need to simulate classroom modules but that is the current practice within teacher training colleges. He is concerned that the prevailing thrust of innovative measures, modules and initiatives adopted by the University of Limerick will be carried into the teacher training modules when Thomond College will be assimilated into the University of Limerick. That is what I understand the Deputy to have expressed.

Yes. What I am asking is that within the spirit of the legislation, which gives additional powers and functions, we would exhort people to incorporate as many new approaches to the training of teachers as possible and that there should be as much experimentation as possible. Just as the University of Limerick has been one of the pioneers of innovation in its field, I would hope this will become the hallmark of teacher training within the new merged institution. It should be as adventurous as possible in taking on every possible new module and mode of experimentation.

In a university there are lecturers and professors from all over the world all products of different teacher training programmes, some of whom may have a background in teacher training, and it would be as well to avail of their skills and experience in the new set-up. We can learn from the experience gained in other countries. We could benefit from a new approach, although I am not saying there is anything wrong with the existing teacher training courses. We should benefit from the experience of the many eminent people who lecture on the campus, and outside the university. It is worth exploring their theories on teacher training and we might all benefit from taking them on board. Originaly, I did not quite understand the point the Deputy was making but I support his viewpoint now.

I am fully in agreement with the section which provides for the assigning of additional functions relating to the education and training of teachers to the university. The Minister may by order assign such additional functions and that is correct because of the changing nature of teaching and society generally. Will the Minister explain the reason for the words "in accordance with such terms and conditions as may be determined from time to time by the Minister". I can understand what is meant by "the Minister may, .... by order assign to the University such additional functions in relation to the education and training of teachers" but I find it difficult to understand the meaning of "such terms and conditions" as the Minister may lay down. Does this relate to the terms and conditions of the teachers and students or does it relate to the terms under which the functions will be assigned, or taught? I would appreciate it if the Minister would clarify this point.

Two points have been raised. There is common agreement on the point raised by Deputy Higgins, where he identified the need for experimentation and dynamism and change within the teacher training experience and that this should be helped along by the innovative measures of the University of Limerick. Deputy Mac Giolla's point flows on from that. Deputy Kemmy agreed with this viewpoint and stressed that in a university there is a meeting of minds of various disciplines and that the experience of various disciplines and cultures could be absorbed into the teacher training process. I should like to digress for a minute. This is one of the ways teacher training is going to develop.

The forthcoming OECD report, of which I have seen a draft, recommends that we change from the present practice of isolating teacher training establishments, whereby the teacher training college and just teacher training alone is on a campus of its own. The OECD report, various educational experts and I are of the opinion that the era of the isolated teacher training college is over, that there is now a need for interaction between the various disciplines on a common university campus and that trainee teachers on such courses can only benefit from being exposed to all sorts of other influences, disciplines, ideas and cultures as goes on in a university.

While the content of teacher training courses is excellent, there is a need for constant examination of them and this is needed nowhere more than in teacher training. As Deputy Mac Giolla said, the world is changing so much and teachers are required to be so many things to so many people some of whom may have many difficulties. The status of teachers, where a teacher was seen as a person with authority, to whom people have due regard, no matter what the circumstances, is sadly changing and there is a great need for teachers to have as well as their professionalism, a huge degree of flexibility and to have been exposed to all sorts of directions and winds of change. Over the past few years I have felt there is a need for an indepth look at the content of the curriculum in teacher training establishments.

I know teachers undergo constant reassessment and are constantly innovative. The location of the teacher training college within the University of Limerick will be a first step in that process which, as I said, will be recommended by the OECD and to which the Government set their face in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. I agree with the views expressed here today. Deputy Mac Giolla asked what was meant by “in accordance with such terms and conditions as the Minister, ... directs”. This follows on from the points we have been debating. If we find there is a need for a change of direction or for diversification in teacher training colleges or in the curriculum, as it is now within the university that will be possible. That is a logical consequence in the light of the emerging debate on the need of the trainers of teachers within the educational system.

I thank the Minister for clarifying the matter. We broadly agree with her. Public education policy embraces the concept of an all graduate teaching profession and this should be reflected as far as possible in a similarity and consistency of training. One of the great strengths of teacher training education, particularly at Thomond College of Education, and what it brings to the University of Limerick, is that it is concurrent teacher education, that it hands on, day by day involvement, as opposed to consecutive education, where one does the B.A., B.Sc, or B.Comm, or B.Ag and then follows with a Higher Diploma in Education. In other words a student pursues a particular course for three or four years and then spends one on the H.Dip course.

Thomond College has excelled in the preparation of graduates. Report after report from management bodies and school principals endorsed the concept of concurrency in glowing terms. It would be a most retrograde step, of almost asinine proportions — I hate to use that word — if we were to go from concurrent to consecutive education. It would undermine the principles of the only institution in the country that prepares teachers in this way, with the possible exception of the colleges of home economics.

There is no cheap way of training teachers well. Poor training, as has been discovered in other countries, ultimately costs the Exchequer dearly. If we do not have good training modules in place we end up with endless in-service needs, trying to correct the deficiencies and gaps that are there. It leads to a lack of leadership in programme and curricular design and planning. The argument for continuing the concurrency element in the University of Limerick is supported by statistics and analyses. I do not believe it is in danger but it should be fundamentally enshrined in the thinking of the new institutions.

The concurrency point is fully recognised. All education debates lead to a wonderful exchange of ideas. There will be debates in the future as to a common type of pre-service education for teachers but that is for another day. I am strongly of the opinion that proper pre-service training must be looked at. I accept the points which have been made.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 5.
Question proposed: "That section 5 stand part of the Bill."

The question of the governing body was dealt with at some length on Second Stage. This is the nub of the problem in merging any institutions. In this case one third level institution is being brought under the umbrella of the other. Maximum trust and confidence is of the essence in terms of the long term survival and prosperity of the new institution. There has been considerable in-depth analysis of the background of the two institutions and what would be desirable in terms of merging their ethos and putting together a framework which would stand Limerick and the south-west in good stead. In order to allay any residual distrust, consideration should be given to providing places on the governing body, at least for a limited period, for some members of the former governing body of Thomond College of Education. I suggested that the Minister might sympathetically consider including four staff members from Thomond on the governing body of the university as an interim measure to facilitate smooth transition and to ease whatever residual staff concerns might exist.

This is the central part of this short Bill. Both institutions can benefit and there will be an improved ethos on the university campus as a result of the merger. The Minister may also benefit when she comes to deal with the resistance which exists at all levels of education to mergers and amalgamations. This merger can be a model and a proto-type for the future. The Minister will be able to indicate that these two third level institutions have come together in a civilised way for the benefit of students and third level education in general. This can be achieved.

It is a measure of the agreement among all parties in this House that so few amendments have been tabled. The Bill has received widespread acclamation and support in the university and in Thomond College. The Minister said last week that perhaps we should stop thinking in terms of these separate entities because when the Bill goes through Thomond College will cease to exist and the structures of the university will be available to people now in Thomond College. I accepted the Minister's point, as did people from Thomond College who were in the public gallery to hear the Minister's replies to my questions that day.

While accepting that Thomond College will no longer be a separate entity after the passage of this Bill, the spirit of what we are suggesting should be incorporated by Dr. Walsh and the governing body in the running of the new institution. I referred last week to an informal committee which has been set up by Dr. Walsh. It is a sub-committee of the governing body who act as an advisory group on the day-to-day running of the university. There is nothing to stop a person in Dr. Walsh's position from setting up such a body to assist him. The board of governors have an overview and consider policy in general but the practical running of the university is carried out by this informal committee. Since this committee are not mentioned in the Bill it has not been possible to put down an amendment in relation to them, but I would hope that Dr. Walsh would take account of our ideas and would include in such committees people who can make a valuable contribution.

The election of a new board of governors will not take place until next year and it can be contested in the normal way. In the meantime there is no reason why Dr. Walsh could not expand the informal committee to incorporate people from Thomond College. This is a matter of some contention among people at the college and I have told them to have faith in the Minister and in this House. We will insist that democratic structures be put in place and that the rule of democracy prevails in the university. There are some slight fears in this respect which could be removed by our stating that we want to see democracy operate in the new university structure so that people who have something to contribute will be welcomed by the Minister and by Dr. Walsh.

As a former student of the NIHE which later became Thomond College, I have a special interest in what is happening. My fear is that physical education will become marginalised in the new structure. We must ensure that all possible safeguards are put in place so that this will not happen. Already physical educational has been reduced within the existing Thomond College, which has produced only 20 PE graduates each year for the past two years. Previously there were 50 or more. The structure of the new board of management must include people who have an interest in physical education.

We are not just talking about amalgamating Thomond College with the university but about amalgamating the former National College of Physical Education and additional faculties within Thomond College, namely, the metalwork faculty, the woodwork faculty and the rural science faculty. I am afraid that physical education could lose out.

I hope the Minister will take this on board because physical education is enormously important to children in secondary school and, indeed, in primary school. Because of the pressure of the points system at secondary level, physical education is becoming marginalised in our secondary schools and it is almost non existent in our primary schools. We must ensure that within the new framework of the University of Limerick physical education will not be the poor relation. To ensure that it does not become the poor relation we must have strong people representing the physical education faculty on the board of management. I see a great future for physical education in the new university provided it is awarded its proper status and gets the necessary resources. Physical education here could be enhanced. However, it has to be handled carefully so that it does not become the poor relation and totally marginalised within a bigger framework.

I accept the thrust of what has been said by the Deputies. There is a legal difficulty in that with the passing of this Bill the college ceases to exist. Deputies, quite properly, have not put down amendments because one cannot have representatives of a college that no longer exists imposed upon the new merged institutions.

There are three representatives on the governing body of the university but when their term of office ceases they will not be left on the board because there will no longer be a Thomond College. How can we then go along with the spirit of the debate? The Minister can nominate nine members and I am prepared to give a commitment that there will be representation on the governing body of the university for the physical education faculty, and I would hope that future Ministers for Education would do likewise, thus carrying on the tradition of the original Thomond College. We cannot do this in a formal way because of the legal position but, in the light of the very good debate we had on this issue. I feel it would be incumbent on whoever is in this position to see that physical education will be represented.

I know the president of the college and the governing body have a great respect for the inheritance they are receiving and will seek, although they would have to do so in an informal way, to give expression to the traditions of Thomond College in the setting up period which will be difficult and have its own challenges to be faced.

Deputy Deenihan said he did not want to see the discipline of physical education becoming marginalised within the new college. He went on to say he had great hopes for physical education because it would now be enclosed within the new University of Limerick. That is how we should look at it, not as an increasingly threatened discipline standing on its own and less able to stand on its own as the years go by. Its absorbtion within the new university should give physical education a recognition as a distinct discipline within the new university and an even more enhanced standing and reputation, if that were possible because it is already high, than heretofore.

In regard to the point made by Deputies that the wishes of the representatives of Thomond College be carried out in the interim 12 month period, we want that too. The public representatives piloting this Bill through the House wish to put on the record that we do not wish to see anybody diminished in the process even though they cannot be formally recognised since they no longer exist. We hope that in less than 12 months time when there is a new governing body the ministerial nominees to that body would reflect the tradition of Thomond College.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 6 to 9, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 10.

We move now to amendment No. a1 in the name of the Minister. I observe that amendments Nos. 1 and 2 in the names of Deputies J. Higgins and Tomás Mac Giolla are alternatives and I am suggesting, therefore, that we discuss the three amendments together. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I move amendment No. a1:

In page 4, lines 6 and 7, to delete "and promotion of the Irish language and culture" and substitute ", promotion and use of the Irish language and to the preservation and development of the national culture and in the training of teachers it shall have due regard to the teaching of the Irish language".

This section gave rise to quite a good debate last week. My amendment seeks to be a compromise between amendments Nos. 1 and 2. I recognise what both Deputies are seeking. I wished to be accommodatory and to put forward an amendment on Report Stage but the Bills Office advised me I should do it now. I wanted to bring forward an amendment which, if possible, would embrace the spirit and thrust of the two amendments. I suggest it is open for debate now.

On Second Stage each speaker dwelt on and emphasised the need for maximum concentration on culture and the humanities. We had an interesting debate on that and the Minister responded in kind. Section 10 of the Bill provides that: "The University in relation to the performance of its functions shall have due regard to the preservation and promotion of the Irish language and culture.". I suggested that by moving commas around or juxtapositioning the wording different interpretations could be arrived at. Fundamentally we are all seeking the same thing, that is, to ensure we keep cognisance, recognition and a consciousness of the humanities within the new university.

One of the hallmarks of universities over the years, indeed since their inception, is that they have managed to withstand the test of time. They have come back stronger than ever after rebellions, revolutions, civil war and civil strife. They have managed to fly their own banner and come out of all kinds of strife undaunted in pursuing and achieving their ideals and objectives. One of the kernel features that distinguishes universities from other institutions has been the emphasis on the humanities and the cultural dimension.

In no way, am I castigating the University of Limerick. I appreciate that the university plays a very vital role in developing engineering, electronics and so on, and I welcome the influence Thomond College will quite rightly bring to bear on this. By bringing Thomond College of Education and the university into a new education constituency, we will complement the hard core economic faculties that are there already.

My concern is first, that any new merged institution will have cultural consideration as a paramount consideration and they never lose sight of the fact that having the title of university, which they sought and were given in this House, they would seek to fulfil that remit by a consciousness and a cognisance of culture and all things cultural and second that they would pay special and in this day and age, much needed attention to the Irish dimension.

I feel the explanatory memorandum to the Bill is not quite accurate in saying that sections 10, 11 and 12 are self-explanatory. They are not self-explanatory. The fact that we are debating this in detail is an indication that there is need to explain exactly what we are trying to achieve here. Therefore, I have put down an amendment.

I note the Minister is seeking to be accommodating and to introduce a compromise amendment, but my amendment goes somewhat further. I wish the Bill to provide that "The University in relation to the performance of its functions shall have due regard to the preservation and promotion of the Irish language in its general administration"— in other words in the day to day running of the college —"as a teaching medium". After all, it is the first official language and even though it may not be practicable to have it as a teaching medium in all classes, I think it is important to consider this at a time when the language is very much under siege and there is a dispute going on. We do not know the situation. The late Brendáin O hEithir, who had a deep personal and abiding interest in the language, published a report prior to his sad and early demise, saying the number of day to day active Gaelic speakers was now down to 10,000. When you get to that level of day to day first language participation, the language is under threat as we have known for some time. Therefore, when we seem to be at a crossroads — I know that is a cliché — in relation to the preservation and retention of the very life of the language, we should try, particularly in educational institutions, to incorporate its use as an administrative language within the college. After all, apart from the very welcome interlinkage, interchange and intercourse with other countries which Professor Dr. Edward Walsh has managed to pioneer very successfully, and it is a large part of the success of the Limerick story that they have managed to interchange on an ongoing basis with third level institutions abroad, the vast majority of the students will naturally always remain to be natives of this country. They will have come through second level, they will have had Irish up to intermediate and leaving certificates levels and they will have a fundamental working knowledge of it. Just as somebody in this House is obligated if all goes to all to be au fait with the language or somebody had the right to go before the courts and demand that their case be heard through the medium of the first national language, we should set down as a desirable objective that the language should be the language of general administration within the college.

Therefore, I formally move my amendment that the "language in its general administration as a teaching medium and as an academic subject and culture in the broadest possible sense" should be enshrined in the terms of incorporation of the new institution.

Deputy, I am sorry to intervene. The Deputy may address his amendment. He may not move the amendment. We already have an amendment before us in the name of An tAire.

Thank you, Sir. I have explained already what I mean by culture in its broadest possible sense. In view of the anxieties expressed abroad and in this House by Deputy Mac Giolla in relation to the ethos, or lack of ethos, of the new University of Limerick, we should again put down as being one of the characteristics, aims, objectives or ideals of the new university the adherence to culture in its broadest possible sense.

Tá an-áthas orm go bhfuil an tAire ag glacadh leis an leasú seo, agus tá mise sásta go leor leis an leasú atá thíos ag an Aire. Tá sé suimiúil nach bhfuil ach trí leasuithe ar an mBille iomlán, agus tá baint acu go léir leis an ábhar céanna, múineadh na Gaeilge nó ceist na Gaeilge. Tá sé soiléir go bhfuil na múinteoirí ag cailliúint a gcuid Gaeilge le blianta fada anuas agus tá go leor múinteoirí ann anois nach bhfuil an cumas iontu aon rud a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge, cé go mb'fhéidir go bhfuil tuiscint don Ghaeilge agus labhairt na teanga acu. Is í an tslí ina bhfuilimid ag dul anois ná go bhfuil na gaelscoileanna ag fás ar fud na tíre agus beidh scoileanna dara leibhéal ag fás chomh maith. Fágann sé sin go mbeidh na múinteoirí sna ghnáthscoileanna Béarla gan mórán suime acu sa Ghaeilge. Beidh na múinteoirí eile oilte ó thaobh labhairt na Gaeilge de agus is iadsan a bheidh ag múineadh sna gaelscoileanna ag an mbunleibhéal agus sna scoileanna dara leibhéal freisin.

Beidh an dá chineál múinteoirí againn feasta, múinteoirí gan Gaeilge agus múinteoirí le Gaeilge. Mar sin, tá sé thar am ag an Aire agus ag an Rialtas rud éigin a dhéanamh i dtreo is go mbeidh an oiliúint chéanna ag na múinteoirí go léir agus go mbeidh ar a gcumas Gaeilge a mhúineadh i cibé scoil ina bhfuil siad, bíodh sí ina scoil Bhéarla nó ina gaelscoil. Is dócha go mbeidh múineadh teanga ar an gcúrsa, pé scéal é, Fraincis agus Gearmáinis agus mar sin, ach baineann na leasuithe atá thíos anseo go díreach le múineadh na Gaeilge sna scoileanna chun go mbeidh na múinteoirí in ann gach uile ábhar a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge, más gá. Má éiríonn linn anseo — agus maidir leis an leasú atá thíos ag an Aire féin, is dócha go nglacfar leis, agus má ghlactar leis beimid ag cur mairc síos, ag rá gur seo an tslí ar chóir dúinn a thógáil, is é sin, oiliúint na múinteoirí go léir.

I hope that what we are doing here will be a first step towards bringing about change in the training of teachers so that they will be capable of teaching all subjects through Irish. Teachers should be able to move from school to school, regardless of whether subjects are taught through Irish or English. That used to be the case but it was gradually abandoned by the teacher training colleges with the result that many teachers are not able to teach subjects through Irish. They are able to understand and speak Irish but they do not have the confidence or ability to teach subjects through Irish. We have to deal with this problem and ensure that teachers are able to teach all subjects through Irish.

I am glad this point is being debated on Committee Stage. The Minister has pointed out that teacher training in Irish will be an essential function of the new university. That is basically what we are proposing in our amendments. Deputy Higgins has included an extra dimension in his amendment and referred to "language in its general administration". I agree with him that Irish should be used as a teaching medium, which is what I propose also. I presume the Minister intends the college to have due regard to Irish as a teaching medium. I should like Deputy Higgins to explain why he has included the words "general administration" in his amendment, which I think is the only difference between us at present.

Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar an cheist seo. The Minister's amendment made a very positive attempt to marry the proposals put forward in Deputy Higgins's and Deputy Mac Giolla's amendment. I have no difficulty with the Minister's amendment. However, I am somewhat confused by Deputy Higgins's amendment. I do not wish to be pernickety but perhaps there should be a comma after the word "administration" in his amendment. His amendment is rather vague as it stands and perhaps could be better drafted. Deputy Mac Giolla's amendment is simple and to the point. As I said, the Minister has attempted to incorporate the best of both amendments in her amendment.

I want to make a few other points. Last year Professor Breandán Ó Madagáin of University College Galway assessed the merits and worth of the teaching of Irish in Thomond College. On 13 July last year, he wrote to Liam O'Doherty, Irish Language Department, Thomond College, informing him that he had sent a report to the NCEA on the teaching of Irish in Thomond College. He said, and I quote:

I should like to repeat last year's comment, namely that the teaching of Irish to B.A. level in Thomond College is very impressive and well up to university standard both as regards language teaching and literature courses. The teaching of the language itself, both oral and written, deserves special commendation. One is impressed also by the spirit and enthusiasm among both staff and students, and the excellent rapport between them.

One could not receive a higher commendation from any visiting examiner than that by Breandán Ó Madagáin on the worth of the Irish department in Thomond College.

At present Irish is an entry requirement to Thomond College. I hope this requirement will be continued. It is mandatory for all trainee teachers taking four existing degree courses — physical education, wood and building technology, metal and engineering technology and rural and general science — to have Irish. Students undertaking the four year degree course in Irish in this college achieve standards comparable to university graduates in Irish. This course is at present only available to students of physical education as an elective or second subject in Thomond College. A mandatory three year "professional" Irish course is taught to all students in Thomond College. This includes a mandatory three week Gaeltacht course for all students at the end of the first year funded primarily by the college. Subject to the availability of funding, students can also attend additional Gaeltacht courses. I hope this option will continue to be available to students so that they will be able to brush up on their Irish.

I want to refer to the training of teachers of Irish in Thomond College. Graduates of the PE course with Irish as their elective subject are trained as teachers of Irish for the post-primary sector. A very high standard has been achieved by these students over the years and they have been well received in schools. The college has developed a pre-service course to train a number of students each year for the Irish-medium post-primary sector. I hope that the links this college has with the Department of Education and other colleges will be continued so that they can feed off each other and help each other in this respect. Post-graduate studies are also being undertaken in the college and one thesis is being completed at present. The staffing in the Irish department of Thomond College includes one senior lecturer, one lecturer and one assistant lecturer, very competent people who give good value for money.

I hope that after the integration of Thomond College with the University of Limerick Irish will continue to be an entry requirement for courses in that university. The University of Limerick should receive parity with other universities in teaching the Irish language and should work actively with other agencies, the Department, Bord na Gaeilge and the Higher Education Authority. If this is achieved the Minister will receive the full co-operation and support of the university.

The Minister's amendment should not be regarded by fanatics of the Irish language as a charter on the teaching of Irish. In the past the teaching of Irish was bedevilled by fanaticism which gave Irish a very bad name. Sometimes it led to the adoption of a very narrow approach in the teaching of Irish. If the Minister adopts some of our proposals in regard to the teaching of Irish in the university, it will be regarded as a progressive step forward, a step which will benefit the language, the University of Limerick and other universities also.

Tá sé nach bhfuil ach cúpla leasú ar an mBille seo, Bille a gcuirimid fáilte roimhe go ginearálta, is iad sin na leasuithe a bhaineann le mír a deich den Bhille, agus go speisialta, cás na teanga Gaeilge. Bhíomar go léir, a bhfuil suim againn sa Ghaeilge, i ndul chun cinn na Gaeilge agus i muintir na Gaeltachta, thar a bheith sásta leis an obair a bhí á déanamh le blianta anuas ag Coláiste Thua-Mhumhan maidir le teagasc agus cur chun cinn na Gaeilge, agus leis an aitheantas a bhí á thabhairt don teanga agus don chúltúr Ghaelach. Tá sé an-tábhachtach go mbeadh an t-aitheantas, an tacaíocht agus an stádas céanna ag an teanga sa chónascadh úr in Ollscoil Luimnigh agus a bhí ag an Ghaeilge go dtí seo i gColáiste Thua-Mhumhan.

Tá buntáistí móra ag baint le hOllscoil Luimnigh maidir leis an chónascadh; tá dámh nó faculty iomlán Gaeilge ag teacht isteach in Ollscoil Luimnigh, nach raibh acu go dtí seo. D'aontaigh mé ar fad leis an méid a bhí le rá ag an Teachta Kemmy, go bhfuil stádas agus caighdeán an-ard ann agus aitheantas le fáil ó na extern examiners a luaigh sé maidir leis an chaighdeán Gaeilge atá sa choláiste. Is é an príomhdhualgas a bhí ar Choláiste Thua-Mhumhan ná múinteoirí a oiliúint, agus iad ag dul amach ar fud na tíre ag teagasc na ndaltaí. Tá sé riachtanach go mbeadh cumas Gaeilge ag múinteoirí — agus b'amhlaidh an scéal i gColáiste Thua-Mhumhan — agus freisin go mbeadh an rud céanna le fáil nuair a chuirtear an cónascadh seo i gcrích. Mar shampla, tá sé de pholasaí ag Coláiste Thua-Mhumhan, ní amháin ábhar múinteoirí as na Gaeltachtaí a ghlacadh isteach, ach duine ar bith gur mian leis agus a bhfuil an cumas ann teagasc trí Ghaeilge nó trí Bhéarla. Tá polasaí dátheangach acu agus sin rud go gcaithfimid béim a chur air san am atá romhainn. Ní dóigh liom go mbeadh sé sásúil dá mbeadh múinteoirí ag teacht amach agus gan ar a gcumas na hábhair a theagasc trí Ghaeilge. Tá dhá chúrsa Gaeilge i gColáiste Thua-Mhumhan.

One course gives the opportunity of getting a degree in the Irish language that is on a par and up to the standard available at any of our other universities. Deputy Kemmy has given the views of one of the extern examiners, Professor Madigan, University College, Galway, who has praised the standard attained by the students who pursue a degree course in Irish at Thomond College. As well as that there is a professional course in the Irish language where all students attending Thomond College — and it has been a tradition for many years — are obliged to attend courses in the Gaeltacht areas. They attend Gaeltacht areas in Donegal, Galway, Mayo — Deputy Higgins would be familiar with that — Cork and Kerry in the month of June with teachers or trainee teachers from the other trainee teacher colleges. this gives them the opportunity of hearing the Irish language spoken in a natural way. I hope that tradition will be allowed to continue when the amalgamation has taken place.

We know that preparations are being made for the ceard teastas Gaeilge, a qualification that is necessary for all post-primary teachers, particularly in the vocational sector. An effort was made in the Groener case, which was taken to the European Court, to show that the teastas was no longer necessary. However the court had the good sense to say that it was a legitimate aspiration of the Department, the authorities and the Government as a support for the Irish language, and it is as necessary today as it has been in the past. It must continue in the future if we are serious about the preservation and the protection of the language.

When the amalgamation is operating and if it ever comes to the stage where the new University of Limerick will require a second language, I hope Irish will qualify as a second language. At the national university it is necessary to have Irish in order to matriculate. Perhaps the Minister would clarify whether Irish is a required subject for entry into the new University of Limerick? If in future a second language is demanded, as universities are inclined to do at present with the emphasis on European languages, for example, French, German or Italian, I do not think Irish should be ignored but should qualify as a second language requirement.

I am a member of Comhchoiste don Ghaeilge — the Joint Committee on the Irish Language — where this matter arose at one of our meetings recently. Some concern was expressed about the future status of Irish because of the amalgamation. We have been very pleased with the manner in which the Irish faculty has been developed at Thomond. We believe they are going into the new amalgamation with a readymade faculty with a national recognition from academics from other universities. In the new marriage I hope this tradition will be maintained, nurtured and supported for the benefit of the teachers who will qualify from this university in the future and for the ultimate benefit of the young people who will be taught by the teachers in the coming years. If they want to have the opportunity of studying whatever subject, whether corpoideachas, mar a dúirt mo chara, an Teachta Deenihan, nó aon ábhar eile, ba cheart go mbeadh deis acu é sin a dhéanamh i nGaeilge, má bhíonn an fonn sin orthu. Más féidir leis an Aire an guarantee sin a thabhairt dúinne anseo inniu, beimid sásta. Murar féidir léi é a thabhairt dúinn, sílim gur chéim mhór ar gcúl é, ag cur san áireamh an méid atá déanta ag Coláiste Thua-Mhumhan go dtí seo.

Without appearing to be nostalgic I remember the early days of the former national college of physical education quite vividly. In the first year we had our education in Tralee. In the second year we were an amalgamation of those who went to Strawberry Hill in England, Sion Hill and Ling College. On arriving back at Limerick we did not know what to expect. One of the first things that struck me was the great Irish ethos that had developed within the college, especially the whole attitude towards the Irish language. For the first time ever an attempt was made to take the emphasis off the grammer of the Irish language and to put more emphasis on the spoken language, the folklore and the literature of Ireland. Irrespective of what course one pursued all students who went through the college had to go on a number of field trips to Gaeltacht areas.

There were field trips to Dingle, Connemara and other parts of Gaelic Ireland. Irrespective of whether one pursued Irish studies one went on those field trips. An effort was made to encourage the use of the Irish language in the teaching of physical education and second subjects. The Irish ethos was developed by the great personnel in the National College of Physical Education at that time, but, The Irish those was developed by the great personnel in the National College of Physical Education at that time, but, unfortunately, because many of these great innovators were frustrated by the narrow exam system at the time they left the college. There was no place in the system for what they were trying to do.

If Thomond College or the National College of Education were opening now they would be better suited to the new junior curriculum. A number of graduates who tried to encourage Irish studies and, in my case, environmental studies, could not pursue the integrated line of study they were trained to pursue because they had to adhere rigidly to an examination syllabus. However, now, nearly 20 years later, there is a different philosophy in secondary schools. The principle of integrated studies that existed then should be continued in the new structure. Irish studies should be emphasised now more than ever because there is scope for this type of education. That early period was a great time of curriculum innovation, re-orientation and change within the college. There were great people there like Dr. Mulcahy, who later went back to Cork university, and many more who were light years before their time and left the college for many reasons. I know from contact with some of these people that they left out of frustration because what they were doing then had little relevance to the education system as it existed. As a result of the changes that have taken place since, including the introduction of the junior curriculum, their philosophy would be more acceptable in present day education.

I hope this section, and the amendment proposed by the Minister, is not merely a sop to a Gaeilgeoir lobby but will provide much needed support for the humanities and culture generally within the University of Limerick. We know the University of Limerick has been successful in promoting a technological culture, but it now needs to educate for a broader understanding of the Irish context of technology in particular. The new University of Limerick has a powerful technological influence. Even abroad that university is recognised as the technological centre of Ireland in university terms. It surpasses all other universities in that respect. It is developing in conjunction with the development of the Plassey technological park.

We are now amalgamating Thomond College, which is a very small college, with a rapidly progressing technological college. This provides a great challenge and great hopes if the matter is dealt with properly but there is also a danger involved. I appeal to the Minister to ensure in so far as she can that the Thomond element, which will be a very small element in the new structure, will not be marginalised in terms of physical education. I envisage that happening because there are powerful forces within the new University of Limerick for change and technological development. Having read what some people said in the past I fear that their philosophy will be submerged in the overall philosophy of the college. There is hope for physical education within the scientific aspect of the new university, but the whole Gaelic culture must be seen as part and parcel of the overall philosophy.

I would like to refer to the copyright provisions of the University of Limerick Act. That legislation designated the university library as a depository of Irish material. If the university is to meet its obligation under the copyright provisions it will need adequate library resources, which have not been provided up to now. I ask the Minister to comment on that matter in her reply. I know the Minister has a commitment to a smooth transition. As a person who has had experience on campus and has a deep interest in what happened in the National College of Physical Education, I hope the Minister will not lose sight of the great concept and spirit held by the people in the college at that time.

I have reservations about legislation that brings in an element of compulsion in terms of the Irish language in the education area. It is a little like legislating for private morality; there may be compliance but to have to follow a certain line because one has to does not make one virtuous. As my colleague, Deputy Kemmy said, the wording of the amendment is acceptable. Obviously at the end of the day what is important is the teaching and use of Irish in the University of Limerick and how it affects the pupils and fosters the use of the Irish language in the community generally.

Deputy Kemmy referred earlier to elements of fanaticism that have bedevilled the Irish language movement in the past. The initiative being taken by the Minister in publishing a Green Paper will benefit those who are interested in the Irish language and indeed education generally. It will provide an opportunity for a wide-ranging and fundamental debate on the Irish language, its value in the cultural sense and its use. There are too many people who have not thought out their position on the Irish language and do not realise its total relevance and importance in terms of identifying us as we are. It is part of our development. Place names all over the country are based on the Irish language and a great deal of history is to be found even at this level.

I agree with the line the amendment is following. Such an amendment is not a knee-jerk response to any of the more fanatical lines of though on the Irish language movement. It leaves the door open for the continuation of the existing ethos in Thomond College, as was outlined by my colleague, Deputy Kemmy.

The country needs to decide whether it wants the Irish language, why it wants the Irish language, and what is the value of the Irish language. I am deeply committed to the Irish language, but it would be dishonest for me to say that there was in general overwhelming support for the revival of Irish and its greater use.

Tá mé sásta go bhfuil na trí leasuithe mar an gcéanna. I am satisfied that the three amendments follow the same text, as has been recognised. I wish to go through various points raised.

Deputy Jim Higgins spoke on his original tenet of the humanities and the cultural consideration that should be given to them and he set Irish in that wider context. An excellent debate was held on that matter last week. He pointed out that historically universities have had to withstand conflicts from without. Of course, conflicts from within are much more politicised and acute. The old idea of university towns keeping alive the spirit and ethos of education is always evoked. Limerick has a long way to go to inherit much of that tradition. However, the city itself is ancient and historic and has withstood many conflicts and invansion. Indeed, this year they are holding their tricentennial celebrations. The beginning of the University of Limerick and the setting up of its traditions should tie in well at this time.

Deputy Higgins made a point I would agree with. Today he repeated a point that he had made last week when he said that sections 10, 11 and 12 were self-explanatory. I thought they were too scant, and today we have talked on the matter and have had an opportunity to open that out.

Deputy Higgins referred to the late Breandán Ó hEithir and his fears for the Irish language. As he finished I wrote down "Gael scoil". Deputy Mac Giolla spoke on many matters, but he dwelt on the issue of Gael scoil. The late Breandán Ó hEithir's report marked Gael scoil as being beacons of light in the landscape of the Irish language, in its teaching and in its promotion. That is true. The Department and I were very pleased to note that because we have a very positive policy towards them. Parents are brought into the pedagogic environment of the Gael scoil and partake in both out-of-class and in-class activities. Deputy Mac Giolla said that teachers who teach in the Gael scoil should not be seen to be distinctly different in their competence in Irish and their teaching of Irish from the teachers who teach in the mainstream primary schools. That is a source of constant concern.

Last year when the panel system was in operation difficulties were faced with regard to teachers deemed to be "adept enough" in the teaching of Irish to teach in the Gael scoil. That position should not exist. I take the Deputy's point that there should be freedom of movement between all of the schools and that primary teachers should be seen to be — as I believe they are — competent enough to teach in any primary school under the State's aegis. I am concerned that there might be thought to be a difference of quality in the teaching of Irish. That would be more a perception than a reality, but it does need to be examined. Also referred to was the need to preserve the ethos of the Irish language and culture. I thank the Deputy for agreeing with the composite amendment.

I thank Deputy Jim Kemmy for his contribution. It was most interesting to hear of Professor Madigan's 13 July 1990 external evaluation of the teaching of Irish in Thomond. He referred to the impressive level of Irish teaching in the college. Again, that is the dowry that Thomond brings into the merger. It is one of the strengths that more and more will be seen to be part and parcel of the multi-disciplinary University of Limerick. The Deputy accepted the amendment with that spirit in mind. He rightly pointed out the possible danger of people on the extreme fringes of any movement — not just the Irish movement — thinking that they, and only they, and their method of doing something, were right. The general thrust of the Deputy's comments, as with the ideas expressed in all contributions today, was of great interest.

Deputy McGinley reinforced what has been said, and spoke of the need to continue in the University of Limerick, in Munster in general and in the whole country with the tradition held very strongly in Thomond.

Deputy Deenihan could not help but look back, what is the expression, “a la recherche de temps perdu”. I hope the House will excuse the use of another language. We all start to look back as we get older, I suppose, but Deputy Deenihan appears to have had a very happy time in London and when he came back to Limerick. He spoke nostalgically of field trips, but we shall not go into the extra curricular activities, which I am sure were part and parcel of the Deputy's education, both in a general sense and as a teacher.

That is what is colouring his memory.

I think that might be right —la vie en rose. The Deputy's contribution was very interesting. He can tell the House how it was, how it is and how it should be. His opinions are valued because of his on the job experience. He also spoke of the perhaps stultifying atmosphere that physical education teachers of the time faced and of the need for curriculum development there. The concept of a healthy mind in a healthy body, mens sana in corpore sano, holds today as strong as ever it did in the ancient tradition of education. That is what all education seeks to emulate and to provide for the young person.

The Deputy also spoke about the Copyright Bill. That legislation requires that every publication be made available for public perusal, that has been done. The Deputy widened the issue a little to talk about library facilities. That goes slightly beyond the realms of the Copyright Bill but, at the same time, the Deputy was entitled to talk about the need for more libraries.

The discussion on the amendment has been very useful in its general widening of the debate on the universality of universities, of the place of the humanities and the context of Irish.

Deputy O'Shea talked about the Green Paper and referred to his distrust of compulsory legislation on such matters. He said that while agreement could be reached in the letter, it was a different matter for the spirit. That is sometimes a nebulous thing. We can talk of it here, and there have been useful debates on it, but the way it is later expressed and worked out is another matter. The Deputy said he hoped the Green Paper would examine many of those issues.

Deputy McGinley spoke on the need to have a qualification in Irish to enter the University of Limerick. That is not now compulsory for that university. Perhaps there is a need to look at the requirements for students entering into teacher training in the university, where it would be necessary. Deputy Mac Giolla in relation to another section wanted to know what strictures or conditions the Minister could lay down. Perhaps that could be covered there.

There is an ongoing debate about the teaching of languages in primary schools. We hear about requests for the teaching of German, French, Spanish or Italian and it is often said that we are behind the rest of Europe in teaching languages in our schools. I recall Deputy Garret FitzGerald saying here that we were behind the countries of Europe in the range of languages we provided to primary schools. Subsequently I did some delving and found that we are not behind. Most countries in Europe teach two languages, just as we do, and only two teach three. We teach two languages at primary level from the very beginning. As Deputy Mac Giolla said there is a need to examine the content of the curriculum for teacher training in relation to Irish. The fact that we teach two languages from an early stage leaves people ready to absorb a third or a fourth language later on.

I thank Deputies for their comments and I suggest that we agree to the composite motion.

I thank the Minister for elucidating this section. Níor mhaith liom scoilt a bheith againn faoi cheist na Gaeilge. Ceann de na deacrachtaí agus na fadhbanna ba mhó ná an méid scoilteanna a bhí againn ó thaobh na Gaeilge de le linn stair na tíre seo. We should not divide on this. It is not my wish to push my amendment to a vote but to simply use it as a vehicle for debate. I am reassured by what the Minister said.

Deputy Kemmy asked me to elaborate in relation to administration. When I talk about administration I mean having the language spoken and heard within the college as much as possible and about the availability of the language to someone who goes to an administration desk seeking clarification on some point through the medium of Irish. I am talking about a basic competence in the language. For example, if someone goes to a public health dentist that person has the right to have his tooth pulled through Irish, as it were. The Ceard Teastas is a requirement for somebody taking up employment with the health board.

When the Minister refers to the promotion and use of the Irish language I presume she is talking about the administrative use of the language. The Minister might clarify that.

Like Deputy O'Shea I dislike an element of compulsion, particularly when it is aggressive compulsion. Compulsion had done much to damage the respect for the language over the years. It has led to a distaste among children for the language when they should have a natural love for it. What Deputy Mac Giolla said in relation to the decline in the standard is true. One of the most retrograde steps in relation to the welfare of the language was the abolition of the preparatory colleges where Irish was the spoken medium within the college. Even though we train our primary teachers to a level higher than in many other countries, unfortunately that is not true when it comes to our language.

There is the option fortunately now in Mary Immaculate in Limerick, in St. Patrick's in Drumcondra, in Froebel and in Rathmines to do the language per se or to do a theoretical treatment of the language. Unfortunately it is not the vehicle of communication within any of the colleges. There is a less than adequate standard. I very much welcome the development of the Gaelscoileanna. They are a great innovation and are doing a lot in a practical way to nurture a love and respect for the use of the language.

As Deputy Mac Giolla says, we have two levels of Irish. There are people who are extremely competent and others who have a nominal knowledge of the language rather than a day to day competence in its use. I agree with Deputy McGinley that it should be possible to have a greater co-existence of the two languages. I take the Minister's point that we teach two languages. It should be possible to achieve the use of the two languages and we should try to work towards this with as little compulsion as possible and more exhortation.

The debate on this section has thrown up the need for a further debate in the House in relation to the Irish language. Ceapaim go bhfuil gá le díospóireacht níos forleithne a bheith againn sar i bhfad ar staid na Gaeilge féin.

Administration was clarified as relating to the every day activities of the college. Deputy Higgins pointed to the Ceard Teastais and referred to the fact that that certificate extended to health bords. How pervasive Irish becomes in the conduct of public business will be a matter for scrutiny and follow through in the colleges. Deputy Higgins suggested a full scale Dáil debate or a nationwide debate on the state of the language. That and in-service training have emerged as the two themes being debated here this morning. Beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach on that theme.

Would the Minister clarify the position of Irish being an entry requirement into the physical education faculty? Will it have the same status as previously in the context of the new university?

That arose from Deputy McGinley's contribution when he asked if Irish was compulsory for entry to the University of Limerick. It is not but, in answering him, I said we would now give consideration to it being necessary for students who wished to train as teachers.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 1 and 2, inclusive, not moved.
Section 10, as amended, agreed to.
SECTION 11.
Question proposed: "That section 11 stand part of the Bill."

I should like the Minister to come to Limerick when the integration of the colleges takes place because her very presence will guarantee that she will monitor and oversee this legislation. It is fitting that this should take place in the year of Treaty 300. I am glad she did not speak much French because I have difficulty in coping with the matter in English.

I am glad to hear Deputy Deenihan speaking about his days in Strawberry Hill and its comparison with the National College of Physical Education. Like the Beatles we cannot all have stawberry hills forever.

The Beatles' song referred to "Strawberry Fields".

We would like to have had them forever but, unfortunately, life catches up with us all and the halcyon days in Thomond College will be remembered by Deputy Deenihan as carefree times. It is well we have public accountability in respect of this legislation because we vote a lot of money through every year, as Deputy Higgins said, for third level education. It should be fully discussed in this House and all opinions are equal.

I hope that the ethos and spirit of this debate will be translated to the campus in Limerick and that the tolerance and consensus among Members will mean agreement in the college. The debate on Irish culture and language has been very good. Kate O'Brien is the only writer commemorated in a tower in the University of Limerick and many other writers, poets and scholars deserve to be commemorated also that the ethos lives on in a physical and tangible way. Gerald Griffin, our novelist and poet, deserves to be commemorated in the new university and the same applies to John Francis O'Donnell and other poets and writers. Michael Hogan, the Bard of Thomond and the De Veres should also be commemorated. Eugene O'Currie came from neighbouring County Clare and even though his colleague, John Donovan, did not come from the area, they both made a tremendous contribution to Irish culture and deserve to be commemorated in the university.

What about Brian Merriman?

I am coming to him. Brian Merriman died in Limerick in the 19th century. He was a school teacher and grew flax and is associated with Midnight Court, infamously or notoriously. However, Brian Merriman was a great scholar and deserves to be commemorated. Seán Ó Tuama and Andrias McGrath who composed Limericks also deserve to be commemorated. I would not turn up my nose at a Limerick, bawdy or otherwise; as far as I am concerned anything should go in a university to foster the free spirit about which we spoke earlier.

I am glad the Minister of State, Deputy Frank Fahey, has been here for the debate. I am sure he would be interested in commemorating Bob Tisdall who won an Olympic gold medal for Ireland in 1932. Ronnie Delaney, Eamon Coughlan and Marcus O'Sullivan should also be commemorated. I know that the Minister of State did not get a chance to say much today, nevertheless, he is responsible for ensuring that our writers, poets and athletes are commemorated. We represent the public, this is public money and we must influence the Government. I do not want to do this in an arrogant way or through the use of "Big Brother" because the spirit of freedom must exist in every academic institution, but we have knowledge of the university of life. One track should certainly be called after Bob Tisdall.

This has been a healthy debate and I hope the Minister will take on board our suggestions. There has been a marvellous consensus among all parties in the House in relation to this issue, long may that continue. Education generally has been a battleground in the past because of vested interests but I hope that day has gone. I believe in saying things in the open, not lobbying the Minister behind closed doors and trying to manoeuvre in an undemocratic way. Education is a public domain and we are entitled to make decisions in this House. If other people want to influence us they should write to us and we will put their point of view in this House.

According to the order of the House I am obliged to bring the debate to a conclusion at 12.30 p.m. I have allowed some latitude to the Deputy.

I have finished.

We spoke much about physical education in this debate but it must be remembered that the Bill——

Acting Chairman

The Deputy is aware that the Bill must conclude at 12.30 p.m.

We also spoke about woodwork and metalwork teachers and building construction. However, these seem to be the preserve of male teachers. I do not know of any female woodwork teacher.

Well, they are very scarce. I hope in the University of Limerick there will be a greater emphasis on encouraging girls to take up woodwork.

I appeal to the Minister to increase the intake of physical education trainees in the new college as there are only 20 there at present, which is not sufficient. At the moment, over 28 per cent of our schools do not have the services of either a part time or a full time physical education teacher and this problem must be addressed. Will the Minister also consider the possibility of introducing State scholarships to the physical education faculty in the new university?

I thank Deputy Kemmy for his invitation to go to Limerick to monitor developments. He spoke about the spirit and ethos which is the mark of a university. He also said that we should talk more openly about our poets, writers, sculptors and crafts people. I agree and he also reminded us that education is a public debating issue which should not go on behind closed doors. I hope the Green Paper will give effect to that.

As Deputy Kemmy spoke I could not help but think of the junior certificate anthology and the essays opening the windows of wonder. The new University of Limerick is getting a very valuable dowry with the merger and assimilation of Thomond College. Deputy Ahearn spoke about the lack of female participants. The number would need to increase dramatically in the practical subjects.

Acting Chairman

Tá an t-am istigh.

I cannot help thinking about the line of the song "Limerick you're a lady". Let us hope that we will see more female participants. I wish the merged institution good luck and every success in the future.

Question put and agreed to.
Section 12 agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported with amendment and passed.
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