Vol. 409 No. 8
11 Mr. Sherlock asked the Minister for Education if her attention has been drawn to the concern about the state of physical education in national schools; the number of physical education teachers in national schools; the number of such schools which do not have a general purpose room for PE; if she will outline in respect of new schools built since 1986 the number and proportion built without a general purposes room; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
Physical education forms part of the primary school curriculum. It is the responsibility of the principal teacher, in consultation with the school staff, to outline a plan of work for the school as a whole and to ensure that each area of the curriculum is adequately dealt with in all classes.
Irish national teachers are trained to teach all aspects of the curriculum and are, therefore, qualified to teach physical education. Teachers are not recognised on the basis of subject qualifications.
As the Deputy is aware, the Primary Curriculum Review Body made certain recommendations in regard to physical education. At present, through the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, a comprehensive examination of the report, taking into account the views of interested parties, is in progress.
The detailed information requested by the Deputy in relation to the number of national schools which do not have a general purposes room is not readily available in my Department.
Since 1987 there have been over 200 national school projects completed with another 100 in planning stages. My priority is the elimination of pre fabs and the provision of high quality classroom accommodation.
I am amazed that the Minister is not able to say how many primary schools do not have indoor facilities for physical education.
That is not the question.
Basically, the question asked the number of such schools which do not have a general purposes room for physical education. I am indebted to Deputy Deenihan who has done a very good study and analysis of the state of physical education in primary schools and has spent a lot of time on it. He states that one-third of our schools have no indoor facilities for physical education and that this activity has to be undertaken outdoors in the school yard. It is not proper that young children should have to go outdoors during cold and wet winter days to undertake this activity. Surely the Department of Education have carried out some analysis of this? The Minister stated in her reply that teachers are fully capable of teaching physical education. I presume the Minister was referring to all teachers and not just physical education teachers. Deputy Deenihan's survey covered over 3,000 schools. He received replies from 1,500——
I want to assist the Deputy in eliciting information but he seems to be imparting a lot of knowledge rather than seeking it.
Would the Minister agree with the finding that 66 per cent of teachers do not feel confident to teach physical education because of a lack of preparation and training in teacher training colleges?
I cannot possibly account for the findings in Deputy Deenihan's survey. He is a very busy man and has unearthed all sorts of exciting facts in his survey. Neither would I be competent to answer for the 3,500 teachers in primary schools. What I am saying is that physical education forms a part of the primary school curriculum and teachers are trained during their pre-service training to teach all aspects of the curriculum, and physical education forms part of their training. With regard to whether teacher training colleges believe they are giving enough training in this subject, that is another matter.
Deputy Deenihan said his survey indicated that one-third of our schools have no indoor facilities for physical education. I have no knowledge of this but I would be glad to discuss the findings of his survey with the Deputy. Certain matters have arisen which I have had to deal with, for example, the problem of pre-fabs which I inherited. The previous Government had also sought to deal with this matter. I went about solving the problem in a very practical fashion. I introduced a programme to provide decent, well lit and well heated classrooms, proper toilet facilities, proper staff rooms and offices for principals, tarmacadamed yards, ball courts, etc. There was much goodwill for this programme from parents and the management of schools who regarded pre-fabs as a great hazard so far as primary schools were concerned. We are about half way through that programme. It should be completed in two or three years. Since I launched this programme, the number of pupils in some schools has fallen and they now have up to four spare rooms. These schools have sought grants to demolish walls between rooms, thus making one large classroom which can be converted to a GP room. We are providing grants towards this work. When the problem of pre-fabs has been resolved, I will then tackle the problem of schools which do not have adequate facilities for physical education, concerts etc.
I should like to join with Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla in paying tribute to my colleague, Deputy Deenihan.
I also praised him.
Indeed. This survey which was carried out very professionally relates to 794 schools. With regard to the qualification of primary teachers to teach physical education, may I ask the Minister if she is satisfied with the situation where first year students in Mary Immaculate Training College in Limerick receive a mere 45 minutes training in physical education during a 25 hour week, second year students receive 45 minutes training per fortnight and third year students receive no physical education training at all?
I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy, but he must know full well that quotations at Question Time are not in order. Furthermore, we are having an impartation of knowledge rather then a seeking of it here.
I am asking——
Ceisteanna, le do thoil.
Tá mé ag cur ceisteanna agus ag lorg freagraí.
Ceart go leor.
I am asking the Minister if that input in relation to physical education is sufficient to qualify teachers to teach physical education. May I also say, without imparting further information, that the situation is equally bad in the Church of Ireland Training College and St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra?
We are now entering into the arena of the inadequacies in regard to the pre-training of teachers in teacher training colleges pointed out by Deputy Deenihan in his survey. This is a completely separate matter to the questions posed earlier. I will ask my Department to raise this matter with the teacher training colleges.
When we are talking about physical education we must remember that in many cases we are talking about children of four, five and six years old. Surely Deputies do not believe that we should adopt the Russian or American practice where children of such tender age have to undergo rigorous training programmes. Physical education in that context implies set programmes and rigorous training. We are talking here in the main about young children at primary school. I will ask my Department to discuss the question of physical education training with teacher training colleges to see if this matter can be tackled in a more detailed way.
I want to refer to the training of teachers in physical education. I am a national school teacher and I believe the students who attended the training college I attended received excellent training from Commandant Joe O'Keeffe and were well qualified to teach physical education. It is only when one gets into the area of specialities that problems arise. I undertook further courses in athletics——
Ceisteanna, le do thoil, a Theachta.
Many schools do not have any indoor facilities for physical education. Would the Minister not agree that the question of insurance is a major problem in regard to the teaching of physical education in school yards or fields close to schools? Many of them claim——
The Deputy is bringing in a lot of extraneous matter.
Many children do not receive proper physical education and I am outlining to the Minister the problems which can arise in this regard. Teachers have become less inclined to teach physical education outdoors because of the problems which may arise in regard to insurance——
We are clearly having a widening of the subject matter of this question. This is not good enough.
I suggest that it is——
The Chair decides those matters, Deputy. I want to facilitate the Deputy in eliciting specific information arising out of this question but he may not go into the area of insurance cover, injuries etc.
With respect, a Cheann Comhairle, the question relates to indoor and outdoor facilities for physical education. I am asking the Minister if she is aware of the inadequacies of the outdoor facilities. I am putting forward some of the reasons I believe these facilities are not being used, to the detriment of many children in our schools.
Those are very interesting observations. I understand that my Department study the debates at Question Time and I will ask them to look at the points raised by the Deputy.
Deputy Theresa Ahearn for a final question.
Would the Minister not agree that physical education is really a Cinderella subject in national schools? Would she be prepared to set up a review body within the Department of Education who would evaluate the status of physical education in our national schools? Does she agree that we are neglecting the emotional, physical and social needs of students in national schools?
No, I do not think we are. We have excellent school teachers and I do not think they are neglecting their duty in any respect. With regard to the setting up of a review body, the Review Body on the Primary Curriculum which was headed by Moya Quinlan made very explicit recommendations in regard to physical education which are being considered by the NCCA at present.
Question No. 12.
May I——
A final question, Deputy.
I agree with the Minister that this relates to many four, five and six year olds but I am sure the Minister will agree that it also relates to many nine, ten, 11 and 12 year olds. Will she assure the House that she will review the physical education aspect — the Minister has agreed that it is an integral subject in the curriculum — because of its importance in the development of children?
I agree with the Deputy. The debate has been very interesting. I will ensure, first, that the Department will speak to the teacher training colleges to see if they will lay more emphasis on the physical education component of the pre-service training and second, I will request the NCCA, who are now undertaking the implementation of the curriculum review in primary schools, to pay particular attention to that aspect.
