John Bruton
Question:19 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will outline the present position in regard to the possible resumption of the Brooke talks or other similar discussions about the future of Northern Ireland.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Northern Ireland Talks.
Dick Spring
Question:20 Mr. Spring asked the Taoiseach when his next meeting with the British Prime Minister is likely to take place; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Peter Barry
Question:21 Mr. Barry asked the Taoiseach if, in view of the indications recently given that a general election will not take place in the United Kingdom until 1992, he will contact the British Prime Minister with a view to having talks on Northern Ireland resumed.
Proinsias De Rossa
Question:22 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if, in the light of the collapse of the Brooke talks, he has had any contact with the British Prime Minister or plans any contacts with a view to encouraging the re-opening of political dialogue in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 19, 20, 21 and 22 together.
The Government are continuing discussions with the British Government on how best to move matters forward in a positive and constructive way. Both Governments remain committed to advancing political dialogue on the basis of the three sets of relationships, are conscious of the progress at what has already been made and will seek to build on this.
The Government are also aware that in a series of meetings with the leaders of the parties in Northern Ireland who were involved in the earlier talks, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is exploring the attitude of those parties to undertaking further talks.
Plans for a meeting with the British Prime Minister will be announced, in accordance with established practice, simultaneously in Dublin and London close to the time of the meeting.
Will the Taoiseach agree that the absence of any discussion between the political parties within Northern Ireland and of any forum within which those discussions can take place creates a political vacuum, an absence of constitutional political activity, in which sectarian murder is encouraged? Would the Taoiseach agree that all the parties in Northern Ireland should be called upon to resume these or similar discussions under whatever aegis can be agreed at the earliest possible date in the interests of the people they represent as well as of the others living in other parts of these islands?
There has been some criticism of the sentiment Deputy Bruton has advanced, that it is in some way the responsibility of the parties in Northern Ireland that these appalling, dreadful sectarian killings are taking place. I know that has been resented in Northern Ireland. I would not like to venture an opinion on it but in my view the dreadful situation which has emerged could not be attributed to anybody other than the people directly engaged in these awful campaigns. I certainly agree that every effort should be made to fill the political vacuum and we are ready at any stage to take part in any such discussions.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that the political vacuum, the existence of which he has acknowledged, makes it easier for these murder organisations to present spurious — and they are spurious — justifications for their appalling activities?
I would not go along with that theory.
Deputy Spring.
Mr. Spring rose.
I have a question down, a Cheann Comhairle.
I am calling Deputies in order of seniority in this House.
No, Sir——
Please, Deputy Barry, do not dictate to the Chair. I will call the Deputy.
In the order in which questions are down.
We would all concur with the sense of outrage felt on this part of the island in relation to the recent escalation of sectarian violence and any political role that we can take to resolve it must be taken up. May I seek to establish with the Taoiseach the Government's response or otherwise to recent statements made by the British Foreign Secretary, Mr. Douglas Hurd, and to the comments made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Brooke, in his recent interview with The Irish Times? May I ask the Taoiseach if the Government feel there has been a change in attitude on the part of the British Government, in view of the statement made by the Foreign Secretary, Mr. Hurd, or are the Government satisfied that there is no perceptible change in British policy on Northern Ireland?
I am satisfied. It is not helpful or advisable to engage in long term discussion or dialogue from Dublin to London about these matters but all our discussions with the British authorities are directed to the same process because we believe it offers the best opportunity for success, namely, we would like to see the process of dialogue on the three sets of relations resumed as quickly as possible.
I want to call Deputy De Rossa.
Going on the order in which they appear Deputy Barry is next.
Deputy Bruton was afforded a supplementary. I assumed that you were affording Deputies supplementary questions. That seems to be the order you are adopting today.
I am adopting the order which is traditional in this House of calling first the Leaders or spokespersons of the various parties here.
I do not want to get into a dispute with you but, from memory, at Question Time you call Deputies in the order in which questions are put down.
It may seem like that, Deputy.
Please forgive me for saying so but you should now be seen to be doing the same thing again and not change the rules in the middle of the game. I do not object to Deputy De Rossa asking a question——
I am consistent in the manner in which I call Deputies in this House.
With due respect. Sir, you are not; you have changed the rules just now. Normally, for statements you call the party Leaders in order but for questions you traditionally called Deputies in the order in which questions were put down.
Where Leaders of the various parties in the House put down questions I call them in order.
That is not the precedent.
We are individuals at this stage.
I called the individuals also. We are wasting precious time, Deputy. Deputy De Rossa.
It is a bad ruling, Sir.
I resent that remark. I called Deputies Bruton, Spring and De Rossa in that order and I will call other Deputies afterwards. I resent the intrusion of the Deputy in putting the Chair in a false position.
No Sir, I am not.
You are.
I am asking you to be consistent.
I ask you to withdraw these allegations against the Chair.
I am sorry but I cannot. As I said, I do not wish to get into a dispute with you but it has been the tradition here that at Question Time Deputies are called in the order in which questions are put down. I think any Deputy in the House would bear me out on that.
I called the Deputies in order of seniority in respect of their positions and parties — Leaders first.
That is not the precedent.
It is not the precedent.
I am sorry but the Deputy may not claim precedent in this matter.
Perhaps you would check with the Clerk at 3.45 p.m.
I do not need to check. I am in control of my own business in this House.
It is appropriate to join with other Deputies who have declared that they are appalled by the assassinations being carried out by various sectarian gangs, both Nationalist and Loyalist. May I ask the Taoiseach if he would consider it of benefit if the democratic parties in Northern Ireland recommenced their discussions as a means of filling the political vacuum which exists there? There is little doubt that once it is seen that the democratic parties in Northern Ireland are hidebound or inactive in some way the sectarian gangs become very active. That has been the experience over many years now. It would be helpful if the Taoiseach encouraged the parties in Northern Ireland, without apportioning blame in any way as to responsibility, to engage in talks. Such encouragement coming from the Taoiseach would be of help in starting to fill the political vacuum which exists. May I also ask him if he is aware of the statements which emanated from the Tory Conference in Blackpool last week which seemed to indicate a drift towards the greater integration of Northern Ireland with the United Kingdom rather than a move down the road of seeking to establish a devolved Government?
This is becoming a very long question, Deputy.
I have two questions, a Cheann Comhairle. Would the Taoiseach indicate if devolution would be his preferred objective as an outcome of the talks?
With regard to the Deputy's first supplementary I have no hesitation in saying that I fully encourage the parties in Northern Ireland to resume the process which was interrupted last summer. I believe it represents the best possibility for progress. I also believe that the general format of the discussions which was worked out after a lot of agonising was a good workable formula. I earnestly hope it can be re-established. With regard to the question of what may or may not have been said at the Tory Party ard-fheis——
I do not think they call it that.
——I prefer to accept what I know from our direct relationship with the British Government who are the people we deal with in that regard.
May I first join with other speakers in sympathising with the relatives of those who have lost their lives in Northern Ireland during the past week in the pointless set of tit for tat killings? If there is anything anybody in this House can do, not alone should we wish to do it to save lives but it is our responsibility to do it. In relation to the talks, would the Taoiseach not agree that both the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and himself have not been helpful in allowing the impression to be given that the British general election in some way will dictate when these talks will recommence?
There are two constitutional parties in Northern Ireland who are willing to sit down today to continue the talks process. However, two other parties — the Official Unionists and the Democratic Unionists — see the British general election as an opportunity to postpone talks. The Taoiseach in his broadcast on 22 September, and prior to that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, have managed to give the impression that the British general election — which at that time was supposed to be taking place this side of Christmas and would dictate when the talks would recommence — will not now take place until next May. Those talks — and the Taoiseach and Secretary of State have left the door open in this regard — may not now commence until next June which certainly does not indicate any sense of urgency in regard to putting in place in the North some kind of political institution to which both communities can show their allegiance. Will the Taoiseach agree that it is his responsibility, the responsibility of his Government, and that of the British Government, to withdraw the encouragement they gave to some parties to stay away from the table until after the next British general election? Will the Taoiseach get those talks under way as quickly as possible and bring an end to the violence in the North?
I do not accept that the Secretary of State or I in any way indicated that the talks should not resume until after the general election. At that time the likelihood of a British general election was a practical difficulty; there is no point in being unrealistic about these matters. If political parties were preparing for a general election they were not likely to be prepared to enter into fuller discussions. However, since then the matter has been advanced as far as possible, the Secretary of State has been talking to party leaders in Northern Ireland and discussing the possibilities with the Minister for Foreign Affairs here through the Intergovernmental Conference. We are in many ways clearly indicating our wish that the process should recommence as soon as possible.
Can the Taoiseach give any indication to the House that those talks will commence this month? It is essential that these people get round a table and devise a formula among themselves, acceptable to all, which would allow the Government to negotiate some replacement for the Anglo-Irish Agreement?
I would strongly support an early resumption of the talks, in fact I said in response to a suggestion by Deputy Spring, that we would encourage an early resumption of the dialogue process. However, the Deputy will understand that it must involve all the parties. If some of the parties are not willing to participate there is not very much we can do about it except to continue to express our interest in participating in further talks.
Is the Taoiseach aware that the British Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Kevin McNamara, on behalf of his party has indicated that, notwithstanding any possible change of Government, the incoming Labour Administration would support the Brooke Initiative? They are anxious that talks should not be delayed or stalled because of a possible change of Government either before Christmas or as now seems probable — in May. Having regard to that, will he undertake to directly request the British authorities to convey that political position to the four parties, because there must be four parties to the talks in Northern Ireland to ensure that those talks commence without delay? Will the Taoiseach further agree that there is a perception among some of the Unionist Party supporters that a change of Government, with an uncertain composition, might be to their advantage? If there was an advantage it would certainly not be in relation to Northern Ireland. Will the Taoiseach undertake a pro-active policy by his Government to getting these talks started before May? Otherwise we will simply have more sectarian murders — I do not regard them as assassinations.
The contribution of Kevin McNamara, the Labour Party spokesman on Northern Ireland, was very helpful and statesmanlike. I am sure that it helps to advance the situation and encourage people to proceed. With regard to our Government taking a pro-active stance, I claim that we are already doing that. First, we have indicated our full support for a resumption; secondly, we have indicated our willingness to take part immediately; thirdly, we have fully supported the Secretary of State's decision to talk to party leaders in Northern Ireland; and, fourthly, we have had discussions with the Secretary of State on the whole question of how the talks could be restarted, again indicating to him our full support for anything that could be done to restart the process.
A final question from Deputy De Rossa.
Will the Taoiseach indicate whether he is satisfied that the British Government are anxious for an immediate restart to the talks because there have been strong indications that they would not be unhappy if the talks were deferred until after a general election?
All my information — and my certainty — is that the British Government are committed to some sort of process by Secretary Brooke along the lines of the last attempt.