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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 Oct 1991

Vol. 411 No. 5

Education Bill, 1991: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

As I said last night, I compliment the Fine Gael Party on bringing this Bill before the House as it gives us the opportunity of debating some of the major issues in education. I have difficulty with some areas in the Bill. In terms of the general debate one point in particular was brought home to me during the debate last night, that is the inappropriateness of dealing with the Education Bill in a piecemeal way.

I spoke last night about the need for a wide-ranging debate in relation to the Education Bill. We must deal with the education system in its totality. The Fine Gael Bill we are discussing tonight deals with first and second level only, and seeks to do so in a comprehensive way. When the Minister contributed to the debate last night she indicated that she will be strongly opposing the Bill and she outlined many reasons for this. She further indicated that she will be publishing a Green Paper on Education before the end of the year, but then stated that she does not mind how long the consultation process takes. I repeat again what I said in the House last night, that I find that statement rather alarming. The question must be asked: whether we are ever going to see an Education Act. A long drawn out consultation period would not be conducive to the early production of a White Paper and, consequently, to the legislation being put through both Houses.

The Minister, during the summer, published two Bills: the Regional Colleges Bill and the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill. We have been told that those Bills will be dealt with in the very near future. At the same time the Minister is publishing a Green Paper dealing with the whole education system. I expressed in the House last night my basic concern about the two Bills, that they are primarily aimed at bringing control back to the centre, to the Department of Education. This is not alone bad in the education sense; it is also bad in the general economic sense because the colleges — I state this again — have been the success story of Irish education in the past two decades. They have provided, from their basic mandate, a wide range of technical qualifications which have been of great assistance to the technological growth of industry and services in this country. They have also provided many valuable qualifications in the general business and secretarial area, as well as providing degrees. The two Bills are structured in such a way as to prevent the colleges from expanding and developing, particularly in the degree area. The Bill seeks to give control to the Department to regulate the colleges and to allow for all degree development to take place in the university sector.

We speak a lot in this House in terms of equality of access to education. There are socio-economic factors in this area which militate and discriminate against income groups in society, but there are also geographical reasons for inequality of access. The development of the regional colleges, in terms of providing more degree courses, would play a major role in eliminating inequality as regards the geographical disadvantage to pupils. The policy of the Department of Education — it will be the continuing policy regardless of which Minister is in office — is in line with demographic trends. Clearly in years to come there will be a reduction in the numbers seeking places at third level. Students seeking degrees will be directed towards the existing universities, particularly in Dublin, which will have a lop-sided effect in terms of national development. Already too many of the country's resources, particularly in the services sector, are in Dublin. Those resources need to be decentralised. Therefore, in a very fundamental way I am opposed to what the colleges Bill is seeking to put in place.

I spoke last night about the major problem I see at present in our schools, that is discipline. In the debate which will ensue from the publication of the Green Paper we must produce a philosophy of education, restating values. This is something that must be done, and if we miss our opportunity to do so we will be doing a great disservice to the country and to our young people for many years to come. We should also study the education systems in other countries. If we want to see profound and fundamental reform, the policies adopted in other systems could be incorporated here but, at the end of the day, what we must look to is our uniqueness, our Irishness and the demands that a growing economy makes upon us.

In conclusion, I would like to deal briefly with the role of teachers in primary schools. I taught in primary schools for 20 years. One thought that has been in my mind a lot since I came into this House is that the national teacher is confined to the same classroom each day throughout the school year. I favour a system that would give more flexibility and release from this type of position. I have put it to the Minister in the House previously, and I do so again tonight, that teachers should be encouraged to take leave of absence from school and get a job outside, whether in the commercial or industrial sector. They should also be allowed, while on leave of absence, to contribute to their pension fund so that there would be no reduction in their pension entitlement as a result of taking work outside the school. If somebody is at the coal-face all the time he does not see the profession in perspective. When someone is released from the day-to-day discipline of the classroom and sees profound changes in areas that have been expanding over the years, I believe that experience would be very valuable and the teacher would return refreshed but, more importantly, would have increased his enthusiasm for the job and have gained additional knowledge.

I believe second level education is being neglected. The Barber report demonstrates conclusively that each town will probably have one second level institution by the year 2006. We are going to see a great many amalgamations over the next 12 to 15 years. I am afraid, however, that the Department are allowing things to happen in a piecemeal and ad hoc way. This is a misuse of resources. Planned amalgamation and development bring the most effective results at the end of the day.

The third level sector should be looked at closely in terms of a cost benefit analysis. I believe that the RTC-DIT sector will come out very well in any comparisons made.

In conclusion, may I once again compliment the Fine Gael Party on giving us this opportunity to discuss major education issues in this House.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an mBille seo mar tugann sé seans dúinn bheith páirteach i ndíospóireacht faoin chóras oideachais.

In welcoming this Bill, I am not agreeing with the approach adopted by Deputy Jim Higgins and the Fine Gael Party. For those who are interested in education or have a background in education, any opportunity to speak on educational matters is welcomed. I for one welcome this opportunity. A Cheann Comhairle may I share my time with Deputy Wallace?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

First, what strikes me is the lack of consultation evident in the Bill. It is not just I who have made this observation because, as pointed out by the Minister, a representative of the TUI pointed this out and said they regretted that no consultation was held with the teachers' union before its publication. I have been following the progress of educational matters since my election to this House and the cornerstone of progress and development in this area has been the process of consultation. Regardless of what Deputy Higgins might have to say and the ideas he may have, it has to be acknowledged that the process of consultation, which came to a conclusion with the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, has been the cornerstone of the educational debate over the past few years.

The Bill has no clear philosophy; it is very impersonal. If one compares it with the developments under the Minister's regime one finds in some respect that it is simply trying to take some of the issues from the Government's proposals and incorporate them into a Fine Gael Bill. For that reason I am very disappointed with the approach in the Bill. The Minister has reached a stage at which an Education Bill will be introduced in the very near future. The first step in producing an Education Bill is to issue a Green Paper, which is a discussion document. I look forward to its publication when all of us interested in education will have something to say.

Deputy Higgins' Bill appears to suggest that progress must be achieved in dealing with the problem of education within the large institutional approach which looks at the issues from the top downwards. As one who has been involved in education I can align myself with the Minister's approach which states that the men and women at the coal-face of education, the teachers of Ireland must be closely involved in the process of consultation. This has been part of the Government's approach since the 1987Programme for National Recovery and the Programme for Economic and Social Progress.

I have no doubt that the Deputies speaking here tonight welcome the fact that education has been and is centre stage in these programmes. If the system closes the opening for consultation, as has been suggested here by Deputy Higgins, it will fail. We must allow for change because from my experience as a teacher, even in my short number of years teaching, there was a natural evolution from the bottom up which is the approach the Minister has accepted. In primary education the child must be allowed to grow, develop and learn within certain parameters. We must allow the educational system to evolve and meet the needs of the child, the parents, the community and the nation. That is the approach adopted by the Minister.

The Minister involved herself in the process of consultation from day one. One of the first debates in the Parliamentary Party I remember was on the pupil-teacher ratio. It was a rough period but let me say that backbenchers like myself and my colleagues were consulted and had an input into how these issues should be addressed. The problems were tackled gradually within the consultative process with the social partners and the teachers' union. Some of the results of that process of consultation are now evident.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Did the Deputy's party not increase the pupil-teacher ratio?

I will address the issue of the pupil-teacher ratio. In the present year 325 teaching posts have been authorised to reduce the class size in primary schools, in post-primary schools 250 teaching posts have been sanctioned and 120 schools in disadvantaged areas have been provided with extra teachers. Even though the country has gone through some very difficult times financially, when every sector and Department was asked to cut back on public spending programmes, the Minister for Education has managed to keep education centre stage.

There is a primary review body and a primary curriculum review body in place which involves all those interested and expert in primary and post-primary education. Reports have been published and we are now entering a period within which a wide ranging debate is allowed. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment propose changes in the syllabuses at the junior level of secondary education and these changes have been introduced in an ordered, systematic way with the least amount of disruption. I detect from this Bill that it seems to come down with an axe, I suppose Deputy Higgins would say, in a radical way to try to change the whole system. This goes completely against the approach of the Government who want to deal with the development of education in an ordered way. The National Council for Curriculum and Assessment will continue their work at the junior certificate level and will then go on in an ordered way to the senior cycle. For that reason I am amazed that the Fine Gael Bill refers to the establishment of a curriculum review board. What was the reason for that? Such a proposal is ill-conceived and does not allow for any recognition of the work of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment.

It has been pointed out that additional funding was provided for schools in disadvantaged areas. Tha funding was increased by 300 per cent since 1987. Initiatives to develop the home/school links scheme at primary and post-primary levels have been put in place. That is one aspect in which I have a particular interest. I spoke before on the need to maintain support structures between the home and the school.

Very much related to that requirement is the issue of the school attendance service in the Dublin region. I would remind my colleagues that a school attendance service exists within Dublin city but in the county that matter is dealt with by the Garda Síochana. I hope my proposal to have one school attendance service is included in the Education Bill. Perhaps its name might be changed from a school attendance service to a support type structure for the city and county of Dublin. I do not consider it appropriate to have a garda calling to a person's home about this matter. I do not wish to take away from the work of the gardaí but it would be more appropriate that such work be given to people involved in education and the social services.

I mentioned one glaring anomaly in relation to the Ballymun area. Part of the flat complex in Ballymun is in the city area and the other part is in the county. The school attendance service operates in one region while, within the same flat complex, the gardaí deal with the issue. Surveys have shown that the problem of non-attendance at school results from many serious social problems such as drink problems in the home, drugs and violence, and, obviously, it is a matter that has to be dealt with by those with skill and expertise. The Minister, in the Education Bill, should tie into the excellent progress that has been made in the home links service the problem of school attendance and, perhaps, amalgamate those involved in the school attendance service with those operating in that area. I gather, from speaking to some of my teaching colleagues, that the home links service, which is now operating in 80 schools, is working well in disadvantaged areas. I hope that the Education Bill will co-ordinate some of those excellent activities.

I have much respect for Deputy Higgins, having listened to his many contributions on education in the House, but I find his Bill to be clinical in its approach to a subject which of its nature is subjective — it is child-centred, student centred. Deputy Higgins put forward a Big Brother centralised system — he may wish to correct me when he replies next week — that would involve continuous monitoring, preparation of reports and regulations. The Bill lacks a humane approach. In many respects it is quite insulting to the teaching profession and to the quality, style and substance of the education system, which is child oriented and personality centred. In fact, it scarcely refers to the pupil.

Deputy Higgins is attempting to steal much of the Minister's educational work in that he refers to the provision of a school psychological service. Deputy Higgins knows that a pilot psychological service for primary schools was established in the Tallaght-Clondalkin area and in south Tipperary, involving about 28,000 pupils. I supported and lobbied for that system and have no doubt, when evaluated, it will be expanded.

Other issues in which he appears to have taken the lead from recent developments are the special emphasis on disadvantaged areas, to which I have already referred, and the parental involvement in management. The Minister asked school management boards to ensure that parents' associations are formed. Deputy Higgins also knows that, following the local elections vocational education committees were asked to ensure that parents and teachers were appointed to new vocational education committees. I understand that there has been a good response to that request.

The Minister places emphasis on the individual school and its significance within the educational process. Management authorities must be given more autonomy to make decisions within certain parameters. That trend is taking place worldwide. I cannot understand why the Fine Gael Bill does not follow worldwide trends.

Many of our schools are creative centres of activity but the Bill fails to recognise the creativity of teachers and their initiative. If accepted, the provisions of the Bill would stifle initiatives being taken locally. The Government's view is to unlock the energies within what is a bureaucratic centralised education system. They are doing that, and I agree with that approach. Unfortunately, the Bill adopts the opposite approach. It adopts a very negative approach towards teachers; does not seem to appreciate the total commitment given by the vast majority of teachers; seems to distrust the profession; seems to consider that there is a need for constant surveillance and monitoring from Marlborough Street. Such a policy would, I believe, have a serious effect on the morale of the profession, which has attracted high-quality people. Irish teachers are held in high regard internationally. I have found that to be so from any contact I had with people outside Ireland who are interested in education and observing our educational system. Indeed, they have observed at first hand the ability of young Irish people working abroad who have come through the Irish education system. I have no doubt that that is accepted across party lines.

Among other things, education is about building the confidence of young people. That has been happening in Ireland and is evident abroad when one witnesses the confidence of many of our young people working away from home. There is no doubt that they hold their own with people from around the world. The system we have is evolving from the bottom upwards. Fine Gael would seriously damage and reverse the process if they got their hands on the system operating from Marlborough Street and had the opportunity to put the Bill in place.

Certain obvious needs have arisen within the system. Deputy Higgins referred to that in his speech. There is all-party agreement on the need for in-service training, although I consider the word "retraining" to be more appropriate. Any system needs constant renewal and to be refreshed. Teachers, because of the nature of their profession, must be provided with such retraining. I am very pleased that the Minister has made that commitment, which I hope will be part of the Education Bill.

When talking about the process of rejuvenation and refreshing, I should like to mention the career break scheme, which has been referred to by Deputy O'Shea. It has to be repeated that the career break option, which is, in effect, the process of giving teachers the option to leave the profession temporarily from one to five years, has been one of the most useful mechanisms for renewal and revitalisation. It has been shown by surveys — and it is a well established fact — that stress and fatigue are very common complaints among the teaching profession. Indeed, many of my colleagues in the profession took career breaks and benefited in a very positive way in that it allowed them to "recharge their batteries". Those who are critical of the length of teachers holidays should bear that in mind before criticising the teaching profession. They should put themselves into the role of the teacher and consider how they would cope. They should even drop down to their local school to see at first hand how concentrated is the role of the teacher and how skilful and prepared teachers have to be to carry out their responsibilities to the best of their ability.

There is no other job I know of that calls for more concentration or effort on the part of the mind and body than does teaching. The career break option, allowing this chance of renewal, has given some teachers an opportunity to branch out into other careers. That is something I welcome also because there were many teachers who had much to offer the teaching profession but who discovered that they needed some other outlet. Let us face it, by their leaving the teaching profession they have created employment opportunities for others badly in need of jobs.

There has been reference in the debate, and in this Bill, to the provision of support for interdenominational education. That is something I would support provided it comes from the bottom up and the demand exists within the community. It has been suggested in certain debates in Northern Ireland that if groups of Catholics and Protestants were integrated in the one school, taught within an interdenominational system, all of their problems would be eliminated. I am convinced that that would not constitute a panacea for the ills of Northern Ireland. If such demand evolves locally it should be encouraged but we must remind ourselves that merely because a school may be Catholic or Protestant does not mean that it promotes hatred or division; on the contrary.

Let us look at our national school curriculum, in particular at our religious course, which is one geared primarily at educating children on how to be good Christians, how to respect one's neighbour, one's environment and surroundings generally. I am aware that a similar regime applies in Protestant schools in my constituency. School systems evolve, expand and grow from a natural tradition and culture. The Minister and Government provide grant aid to the local community who, in many ways, match that contribution resulting in a system that works.

It is unfortunate in some ways that one is seen to be conservative if one supports the existing educational system of Catholic, Protestant or other religious schools but progressive if one supports nondenominational or interdenominational schools because there is room for both.

I might revert to the point I made earlier that such systems must evolve rather than be imposed. If there is demand within a local community for non-denominational or interdenominational schools, then let us support their establishment just as successive Governments have supported the establishment of all-Irish schools following on community initiatives. Any discussion on Northern Ireland suggesting that the imposition of a new, mixed educational system there would wipe out the hatred and bitterness is somewhat simplistic. That would be an unnatural way of stretching the limitations of the educational system in Northern Ireland.

We must remember it is a political system that runs Northern Ireland, an administrative system which rules young people after they leave school and endeavour to get a job. It is that system that must be overhauled. If that political system was overhauled — and God knows we anxiously await some radical breakthrough in that connection — peace and stability would prevail in that troubled region. Let us think of the potential for future generations if such were to happen. I repeat that it is too simplistic to suggest that a mixed educational system would solve the ongoing problems and strife within Northern Ireland. Rather it is the politicians who must take responsibility squarely on their shoulders. Unless they act very soon they will not be thanked. Indeed, rather will they be condemned by future generations for the intransigence and stagnation they have allowed to prevail.

I must pay special tribute to RTE on the transmission of three recent educational programmes. It was an excellent series which was a revelation, demonstrating clearly the priority afforded education in this country. That message came across loud and clear, first, through the fact that the significant contributions of all those who participated in the programmes were of such a high standard and, second, the fact that the programmes attracted an audience of approximately half a million people. That does not surprise me because Irish people are enormously interested in education and want to participate in its development and future. They can be reassured from those programmes that our educational system is in safe hands. It was evident that there was a consensus across the board on the part of the Minister, teachers, parents and experts that progress has been made over the years and that there were sound policies in place to deal with the challenges lying ahead. That series of programmes demonstrated clearly the value of public sector broadcasting. I would urge the Minister to ensure that the provision of a properly structured educational broadcasting service be included in the Education Act because the public have spoken on this matter.

I thank Deputy Jim Higgins for allowing me, as somebody interested in education, to participate in this debate. I have spelled out my reservations about the Bill but at least Deputy Higgins has afforded us this opportunity. I would ask him to have a rethink on his approach. I might suggest that the message from the Minister and this side of the House is that we want power given back to the people involved in education, which is the course we will pursue.

I am glad to have an opportunity to contribute to this debate. Like previous speakers I am somewhat disappointed at the Bill before us this evening because it constitutes queue-jumping. I know the commitment and interest of Deputy Jim Higgins, a Member of this House, for whom I have great regard. Nevertheless it was well known that a Green Paper would be forthcoming very soon which would afford all of us an opportunity to participate in a positive manner in regard to the future of education in this country.

The impact our educational system has on our young people is well known worldwide, its impact on each and every one of us, as is the contribution of Irish people worldwide arising directly from the educational system that has obtained here over many years. On a recent visit to the United States I discussed this subject with many people, when the advantage Irish students and Irish people generally in America have in relation to employment opportunities was discussed, again occasioned by their participation in our system of education.

It is a great pity that all of us could not have got together and discussed this most important subject in a mature, positive way, involving all interests, particularly teachers, parents and the many other people within industry, commerce and so on, who play a most important part in relation to any educational changes contemplated.

I pay tribute this evening to the job done by the Minister for Education and her Minister of State over the past four years in a very difficult climate, with scarce resources when they targeted areas most in need within our education system. I want to refer particularly to funding for the special assistance schemes for schools in disadvantaged areas where there have been increases of 300 per cent granted since 1987 which, this year, are to be expanded to the home/school links programme, bringing that facility to a total of 80 schools. I am aware also that arrangements are in train to extend the same facility to second level schools. I represent an area where that assistance and those posts have played a major part in the improvement in the home/school links which have taken much pressure off teachers and staff generally in those schools.

I heard Deputy O'Shea refer last evening to discipline in schools, a major problem which warrants investigation. Again, the Minister, recognising the pressures on staff, has responded in a very positive manner. Within the past three years some 325 additional teacher posts have been authorised for primary schools in disadvantaged areas and for remedial education. These appointments arose through the Minister recognising the greatest need in the most sensitive areas of our community.

In relation to the pilot scheme of psychological services for primary schools I am delighted to note that there is such scheme in operation in west Tallaght and South Tipperary. But I can assure the House I have already approached the Minister demanding that there be a third such pilot scheme initiated in my area, in Cork, which is much in need of that service.

This year 325 teaching posts were authorised in order to reduce class sizes in primary schools. From time to time we hear criticism of the Minister but the evidence is there now to show that she is concerned. Many Opposition Deputies recognise this and have paid tribute to the Minister privately, sometimes, publicly, for the contribution she and the Minister of State have made in this area.

Education is not to be played around with. The Opposition are not being very positive in putting forward this Bill. There is an obligation and a responsibility on all of us to come together, employers, industry, teachers and parents. More than ever, the community needs a united front in dealing with our many problems. Education is the central point of our future. It is incumbent on us in this House to ensure that we play our part in relation to any changes that are necessary. I have no doubt that if we co-operate we will play a major part in the development of our education system.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Deenihan.

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

I am glad Deputy Higgins put forward this Bill. I have some reservations but they are mainly concerned with what has been left out of the Bill. I have practically no cribs about its contents. It is an excellent guideline for establishing educational structures and deals with the functions of the Department managers, principals, teachers, parents, etc. I support it for that reason.

I also support the Bill because it may give a spur to the Minister for Education to make up her mind about the Green Paper which has been imminent for such a long time. It was promised for the spring, for the summer and for the autumn. It is now almost winter and the Green Paper has not been published. It is to be followed by a White Paper and then an Education Bill. All this could take four or five years. The Minister is already in breach of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress which stated that the Green Paper would be issued by summer 1991. We now believe it will not issue until Christmas or later. In reply to a question from me in February last the Minister stated that we would have the Green Paper by early summer and a White Paper by spring 1992. I do not see that target being reached. Deputy Higgins is quite right to force the pace and start the debate which the public obviously want. It is already taking place throughout the country.

My main quibble relates to what is missing from the Bill. It is a pity it is confined to primary and second level education and does not deal with third level or adult education. The main factor missing is a philosophy of education. A forthcoming Education Bill needs that more than anything else and it is a pity Deputy Higgins did not develop something of that nature. In particular, I should like to have seen something about equality of opportunity and equality of schools. I mention this because the Minister for Education has allowed a two-tier system of education to develop which is very similar to the two-tier system of health care and which, if not tackled now, will grow and become a permanent and acceptable feature of life.

The Minister has talked at length about her concern for the disadvantaged. She mentions this in almost everything she says. Throughout her four years in office the disadvantaged have become more disadvantaged. Where did this word come from? Who disadvantaged these people in the first place? One would think it was due to an accident of birth that they are disadvantaged or handicapped in some way. The disadvantage has been created by her Government in destroying jobs, not providing local community facilities and not building homes for people. All these factors create deprivation which the Minister calls disadvantage. These areas of disadvantage must be addressed by a Government before we can have equality of education.

Children in my constituency are going to school hungry and the teachers spend the first two hours warming them up and giving them something to eat before they can talk of educating them. That is the real disadvantage which needs to be addressed by the Minister and her colleagues in Cabinet. Saying what will be done for areas of disadvantage is not doing any good whatever. The disadvantage is becoming worse and worse.

Schools are not equal. They have not the same environment, similar equipment or the same methods of dealing with children. We have not a free primary education system, despite the fact that our Constitution lays down that primary education should be free. The Minister does not adhere to that. Every school has to provide for the maintenance of the school building. Deputy Higgins's Bill refers to part or whole maintenance by the State. The Bill should go for the complete maintenance of schools by the State. Affluent areas can produce the money for all kinds of equipment needed in schools, whereas disadvantaged areas cannot. In the latter areas one would be lucky to get £5 a year from the parents, while one can get £120 or more from parents in more affluent areas.

The Minister has practically stopped all school building. In my constituency 1,200 children in the Cherry Orchard area have to wander over a two and a half mile radius through traffic-jammed streets to six different schools in order to get an education. Like many thousands of children, they are going into classes of up to 40 children where there is no remedial teaching or psychological service and no guidance counsellors.

Despite her great public performances the Minister is in fact the worst Minister for Education this country has had. Certainly, many hundreds of thousands of children, and their parents, consider this to be the case. She has ensured a worse educational opportunity for more children than any other Minister and that is what it comes down to at the end of the line.

A public debate has commenced on the issue of private fee paying schools. It has not commenced in this House as yet. Whether the State should give a grant sufficient to pay all the teachers in the private fee paying schools is a question that must be addressed. That is what happens at present. The grant for teachers is approximately 80 per cent of the total costs of running those schools so the taxpayer is funding them to the tune of 80 per cent of their costs. As private fee paying schools they are restrictive. There is no logic whatever in this because that does not happen in the primary area. Private fee paying primary schools get no grant for teachers or anything else.

In the debate I heard people say they sent their children to private fee paying schools because the schools are better, they give better education in some way, have a wider range of subjects and more extra-curricular activities. If the money that is given to the private fee paying schools for teachers was given to the schools in the free education system, those schools would be able to have better educational services, would be able to have a wider range of subjects and more teachers. Parents would not have to send their children to private fee paying schools. We are depriving our schools in the free education system of proper facilities in order to provide money for the teachers in the private fee paying schools. This has to be debated publicly and a decision taken on whether it is appropriate. I hope the Minister will address it in her Green Paper.

I call on the Minister to demand that the Minister for Finance keep his hands off the educational section of the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. I would like the Minister to assure us now that the six year cycle promised in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress will not be interfered with. That will cost money. Will the Minister for Finance say we have to put that off because we cannot afford it? I ask the Minister to give us an assurance that the six year cycle at second level, as promised in the programme, will be delivered. I ask the Minister also to assure us that the grants for caretakers in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress will not be interfered with by the Minister for Finance and will go ahead.

I would like to deal with some of the issues which need to be addressed in an education Bill. I am anxious to know what will happen to the 1930 Act which is the only education Act we have. Does the Minister intend to introduce an education Bill which will wipe out the 1930 Act or will she include the 1930 Act, or sections of it, in her Bill? The 1930 Act is one of the most enlightened Acts we have had. It gave us an outstanding VEC service and the only area of democratisation and secularisation in the education system. I hope that will be retained. I am not too happy with the Minister's attitude in regard to the EC as illustrated in the colleges Bills she has produced for us. That was dealt with by Deputy O'Shea and I do not intend to go into it. However, we have had assurance that we will retain the best features of the 1930 Act.

The area of regionalisation of education, the local education authorities, needs to be dealt with. What will their powers be? One hopes that the local education authorities can be developed without destroying the authority of the vocational education committees. They can fit very well togther. There is a need for local education authorities, but not if they are to destroy the VECs.

I dealt with equality of schools in free primary education. If there is full maintenance of schools by the Department of Education there will be equality. All schools will have the same equipment, environment and so on and, therefore, the teachers will have the same facilities in each school. That is vital. We have the best teachers. If they have not got the equipment and have difficult children but do not have remedial teachers or a school psychological service, they cannot educate the children. They are distracted at the moment trying to deal with such children. That needs to be dealt with in an education Bill. Our philisophy is supposed to be cherishing all the children of the nation equally. It is not in the Constitution but it is accepted by the people; everyone believes it is in the Constitution. The people accept it as one of the basic tenets of our society. That must be shown in an education Bill.

I am glad Deputy Higgins introduced this Bill. I am not objecting to all the points in it apart from the provision in regard to conduct of pupils and discipline and where it refers to boards of management having the power to expel pupils. That is fine but we must put in place some system to deal with pupils who are disruptive in school but who must be educated. Many pupils are being expelled from schools and left wandering the streets with no place to go. It is an issue that must be dealt with in an education Bill. I will be bringing in a suitable amendment on Committee Stage of this Bill and I hope the issue will be dealt with in the famous Green Paper, if it is ever issued.

First, I would like to congratulate and compliment Deputy Higgins on bringing forward this historic legislation. It is the first education Bill every introduced.

However, I was very disappointed with the Minister's reaction to it last night. It was as if somebody had stolen her thunder for once. She had not the generosity or the grace to accept that. The Minister should recognise the effort and time Deputy Higgins put into producing this historical Bill. Whether the Fianna Fáil Members agree with it or not they must accept that it is of the highest quality.

The Minister and two Deputies pointed out that no consultation took place when drawing up this Bill. I should like to point out to both the Minister and those Deputies that there was widespread consultation with the people who matter most, the people who are working at the coal-face, the teachers. Before the Bill was framed hundreds of teachers, experts in their fields, were consulted. That should put to rest that argument about the quality and substance of the Bill. I found the Minister's comments both erroneous and insulting to Deputy Higgins. This was most untypical of her general conduct in this House. I regret that she resorted to such tactics.

We must ask ourselves why we need an education Act at this time. An education Act is required at this stage for a number of reasons. It is necessary to determine the role and rights of the various participants in education, parents, pupils, teachers, the Department of Education, the Minister for Education, the boards of management, etc. An education Act would clarify many or all the issues about which doubts have been expressed, for example, the concern that Ministers and the Department may have been acting ultra vires. This concern has also given rise to questions about Carysfort College. No Minister ever had the power to introduce corporal punishment in our schools. We need to clear up these doubts in the debate on this legislation.

It is also important that changes proposed by the Department and the Minister are laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas. Accountability is a basic democratic principle. The question I want to ask is: are the Minister, the Department and the education service in general accountable under existing arrangements? Under section 19 of the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924, the Minister was required by law to present an annual report to the Oireachtas. This continued according to correct procedure until 1963-64 when the last annual report on primary education was laid before the Oireachtas. Primary education is a human right and should be protected by legislation. It should not depend on the whim of the Minister or Government of the day. The Bill proposed by Fine Gael and Deputy Higgins has taken these principles on board.

Various arguments have been put forward against the adoption of an education Act. Some commentators say that such an Act is not necessary because the system works well in the absence of legislation and has demonstrated its capacity to evolve in the absence of a legislative framework. Fine Gael are not convinced by these arguments for maintaining the status quo. This is why we put forward this Bill. Other arguments have been put forward in favour of an education Act. All our EC partners and most developed countries have such an Act.

I recommend this Bill to the House because it does two things: it embodies constitutional principles in positive law, tidies up previous legislation and establishes clearly the roles and functions of the various participants in the education process. Articles 42.2, 42.4 and 44.6 are the main Articles of our Constitution dealing with education. These Articles identify the family as the primary educators. They state that parents may provide education in their own homes, that the State shall not oblige parents to send their children to schools established by the State or any particular type of school and that the State guarantees that each individual will receive a certain minimum education.

The Fine Gael Bill addresses the issue of minimum standards explicitly as provided for in section 5 (2) (a) of this Bill. Article 42.4 states: "The State shall provide for free primary education and shall endeavour to supplement and give reasonable aid to private and corporate educational initiative ...". This constitutional provision is very important and should be considered in the context of the current debate on funding private schools. The Constitution also provides for the funding of private schools. Article 44.2.4º provides that "Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations...". The Fine Gael Bill recognises the denominational nature of Irish education. Article 44.2.6º provides that: "The property of any religious denomination ... shall not be diverted ...". This is an important issue in terms of rationalisation and in the context of the Ministers vision of new secondary schools. Several schools run by religious orders may be reluctant to come into any system. Our Constitution protects those people. This Bill recognises the constitutional imperatives and endeavours to translate them, where appropriate, into a sound, rational, legislative and operational framework.

There has never been an education Act placed before the Oireachtas or its predecessor and, to that extent, this is an historic occasion. Of course, there are many Acts pertaining to the education system in existence. We should note these because they are important and were seminal in the evolution and development of the Irish education service. In terms of the debate here tonight, the most important legislation in this area would be the Intermediate Education Act, 1878, which was amended in 1914 and amended further in 1924; the School Attendance Act, 1926, amended in 1972, the Teachers' Registration Council for Secondary Schools, 1918, the Vocational Education Act, 1930, and the Ministers and Secretaries Act, 1924. It is important to point out that most of these Acts were introduced by the Cumann na nGael Government of the thirties. Fianna Fáil have a very poor record in bringing forward legislation in the education area.

This Bill recognises the important contribution these various Acts have made in the evolution of the Irish education system. It does not attempt to undermine those aspects which are valuable and have an ongoing contribution to make. Rather, it takes on board those aspects which are abiding and updates those which require updating. It also provides a legislative umbrella for those activities and functions which had not received previous legislative imprimatur.

When we analyse this Bill we can look at it from the perspective of the contents of education Acts in other jurisdictions, particularly those of EC countries. The Bill takes on board all that is most valuable, all that has a proven track record, while at the same time it is sensitive to cultural and constitutional issues pertinent to the Irish situation. On the other hand, it avoids the heavy handed legislative approach adopted by our near neighbours which effectively emasculated and destroyed morale in the teaching profession. The Minister referred to the British Education Act last night. I agree with what she said in relation to that Act.

This Bill confronts and deals in an even handed and responsible manner with the issue of teacher accountability and performance. I should like to analyse it in the somewhat wider context of social policy generally. In doing this I am reminded of the important contribution Professor Whitmore made in 1984 in establishing a framework for the development and implementation of social policy. In his work he identified six major planks of social legislation, six criteria of effective policy development and implementation. If we apply these six criteria to this Bill how does it measure up? He identifies the following: first, the core dimension, that is, the issue of education in a democracy. The Bill addresses this issue clearly and effectively; second, the policy paradigm, that is, the way the problem and solutions to the problem are defined and, the problems and solutions to the various problems are addressed in a balanced, mature fashion in this Bill; third, the monitoring framework, that is, the policy in the sense of Acts of Parliament, statutory instruments, regulations, circulars, etc. This issue is confronted and built into the Fine Gael Bill; fourth, the inter-organisation resource dependencies — basically this is the relationship between central and local government or local management of schools. This issue is recognised and addressed; fifth, the administration structures and processes — this is the channel through which policies are formulated and carried out. These are clearly specified and provided for in the Fine Gael Bill; sixth, Whitmore refers to the professional interface with the consumer. This is how policy is carried out at field-worker and client level. This issue is confronted honestly and properly in the Bill.

The Bill meets these criteria. It stands not merely as an historic document but a document that has the potential to revitalise the education service. I strongly recommend the Bill to the House and hope the Government will change their attitude towards it.

Perhaps I could share my time with Deputy Cowen.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

It has been established in the relations between human beings that there is only one thing worse than under-regulation and that is over-regulation. That is the fundamental fault with Deputy Higgins's Bill. The provisions of the Bill would mean far too great an intrusion into the school system, the manner in which teachers behave in their professional capacity, the manner in which principals run their schools and the manner in which the general atmosphere is created in the classroom. The Minister for Education has established — if it required to be established — that the way forward is by way of consultation, not by centralisation and of collaboration, not confrontation. There are several examples of how the Minister has sought to achieve these aspirations over the past number of years. As has already been stated, she set up the Primary Review Body, the Primary Curriculum Review Body and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. In addition, there have been informal meetings and arrangements with school managements, teachers, principals, etc., and with people in charge of universities over the last number of years. To be fair to the Minister, she has succeeded in her objectives in this regard.

If this Bill were to become law it would mean that there would be a curriculum review every ten years. It would not matter if during those ten years the situation changed because of world or European events, and there might be a need to change the curriculum. The regulation would be rigid and would state that the curriculum would be reviewed every ten years. However, it would not be possible to adapt the curriculum to changing circumstances and demands and this would lead to a very rigid curriculum. This could not be countenanced in a very fast changing world.

A teacher's licence is referred to in the Bill. A teacher would be obliged to have a licence to teach. This almost smacks of somebody requiring a driver's licence. One almost wonders if the next subsection will state that for a given offence, the licence will be endorsed; it does not go that far but states that the licence may be terminated. That is an example of the rigidity of the provisions of the Bill: the over-intrusion into the classroom and into the education atmosphere.

The Bill goes further, becomes pontifical and states that the code of conduct for children will be (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e). The human spirit for the most part would normally be well aware of what kind of conduct would and would not be appropriate. Any teacher worth his or her salt would be in a position to identify whether a code of conduct was proper or improper. If it were otherwise then the natural law would be turned on its head and mankind would be without a free will, which seems to be a suggestion when one sets out that the code of conduct in a classroom will be regulated by statute. I do not think, and do not think anybody else honestly believes, that is the way to proceed.

In section 14 the principal of the schools is told — as if he or she had never been a teacher or had arrived from Mars — what they will do in relation to their position and they will behave in the manner of X, Y and Z. It ignores completely the certainty that we are in a position to depend on our school principals to recognise human values, to enforce them, to be flexible and to understand that one has to be human in one's dealings with children. The Bill ignores the fact that one should be human in one's dealings with children.

In short, the Bill would bring into the education arena a policing system built on a distrust of principals and teachers and of the ordinary behaviour of the children in our schools Deputy Deenihan said the Bill was historic, that it was the first time an Education Bill had been introduced in the House. Deputy Deenihan knows very well — and it has been well publicised — that the Minister for Education was to publish a Green Paper on education which, following consultation and collaboration with all involved, would ultimatley end in an education Bill. Far from being an historic occasion, it is a prehistoric occasion. It pre-empts the Green Paper to a large extent and does so in a way that one should not proceed in educational matters.

It gives a lot of good ideas too.

The reason for this is that the Green Paper on education will, in time, deal with the aims of education.

We hope it will be before Christmas. It will deal with the aims of education and will contain a philosophy which this Bill clearly lacks, the quality of and access to the education system. Also, it will cater for the disadvantaged in a meaningful, real way that may not have been thought of before.

There will have to be a different Minister and a different Government.

We certainly need a different Minister.

I am very pleased that under the review of the Programme for Government there is to be a change in the public grant scheme.

I am rather surprised that in a very important Bill dealing with the education sector there does not appear to be a reference — unless I have misread it — to the present higher education grants system. That is rather surprising. The proposals in the review of Government will bring about welcome changes in this area. The question of grants for mature students will be addressed. It is understood that regard will not be had to whether such students had the academic qualification following their leaving certificate to get into university, and their financial situation will be looked at in the sense of that being to their benefit.

We must address the situation where a family has one or more children to go into the third level system. The vast majority of people with one child in third level education and who are denied a higher education grant often find it crippling or impossible to send a second or a third child to university. However able the younger members of the family may be, they are disadvantaged vis-à-vis the first or second child of the family. This is fundamentally wrong and puts pressure on family life. If we are to cherish families each child in each family must have an equal opportunity.

Income limits should be changed and incomes assessed on the basis of the year of entry into third level education. We should have complete equity and transparency in the system of higher education grants. I strongly advocate the removal of the gross income requirement and its replacement with a net income requirement. Under the present system people are denied higher education grants although it is quite clear that their parents are not in a position to pay for their third level education.

Equality of access to education for disadvantaged children will have to be addressed in the White Paper. The situation of people who, through no fault of theirs are disadvantaged in learning, will have to be looked at. The position of severely mentally handicapped children and mildly handicapped children should be looked at. For too long we have failed to provide adequate accommodation for adult mentally handicapped people. Bad as we have been in providing accommodation for adult mentally handicapped people, our record in relation to educating handicapped children has been appalling. I hope that, in the context of the White Paper, the Green Paper and the coming education Bill, account will be taken of this section of our society. Any person whether mentally handicapped or not gains from being educated. I hope mentally handicapped people will be treated in the coming Green Paper with the dignity and respect they deserve as human beings.

We must seriously look at the price of school books. The Minister has increased the amount available for this purpose to £4 million, a welcome initiative. However, books continue to become more expensive. The changing curriculum places greater strain on families in relation to buying more books. The Green Paper will have to address how we can come to terms with the escalating cost of school books and how we can draft the curriculum to ensure that there will not be unnecessary changes resulting in the unnecessary purchase of books.

The points race is perhaps the greatest cause of strain on students, bringing much distress to many young people. It is difficult to formulate a system of entry into third level education without having regard to academic achievement but a more rounded syllabus would result in the influence of the points system being somewhat lessened. We will have to take a fundamental look at this.

The Minister can be extremely proud of her contribution to adult education. She has been responsible for Youthreach and for many schemes in vocational schools throughout the country to give opportunities to both adults and young people who left school prematurely. The Minister can also be extremely proud of her performance in the area of third level education. The university expansion scheme will ensure 3,600 additional places. Today we collaborate with industry in research and development and 40 per cent of the relevant age group are now entering third level education compared with 25 per cent in 1986.

Deputy Mac Giolla in a remarkable contribution suggested that we had a two tier education system and that the Minister was the worst Minister for Education we had ever had. The most significant thing about Deputy Mac Giolla's remarks is that nobody agrees with him.

You would be surprised.

Wait until you see.

Nobody agrees with him so he is on his own, not for the first time.

The country agrees with me.

(Interruptions.)

I would remind Deputy Mac Giolla that this is the Minister who introduced consultation at every level into the Irish education system, the Minister who addressed in a caring way the plight of young people in the education system.

(Interruptions.)

This is the Minister who introduced a six year cycle at secondary level.

Where? It is in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress.

This is the Minister who introduced programmes for people who left school prematurely, who has presided over the biggest rise in numbers in our third-level colleges in the history of the State.

(Interruptions.)

The biggest classrooms in Europe.

This is the Minister who removed the basic unfairness in requirements for third level grants.

Debate adjourned.
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