Vol. 411 No. 7
18 Mr. McCartan asked the Minister for Education if she has any proposals to ensure that only qualified teachers will be allowed to teach in schools; if her Department have, in recent years, sanctioned the employment of untrained personnel in any teaching positions other than that of substitute; and if she will make a statement on the matter.
186 Tomás Mac Giolla asked the Minister for Education the number of school days on which untrained personnel were employed as teachers in national schools for the months of March, April and May 1991, and for the corresponding periods in each of the three years from 1987 to 1990.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 18 and 186 together.
Substitute teachers are employed as replacements for permanent and temporary national teachers absent on certified sick leave, paid maternity leave, leave in lieu of maternity leave, paid adoption leave, jury service and absence on certain approved courses.
The provision in the 1991 Estimates for the employment of substitute teachers is £9.417 million.
In the period March to May 1991 unqualified substitute teachers were employed in national schools for 10,260 school days.
The information for the corresponding periods for the previous three years is as follows:
|
Year |
|
|
(March to May) |
No. of Untrained Days |
|
1988 |
18,032 school days |
|
1989 |
9,325 school days |
|
1990 |
15,912 school days |
The Department at all times try to ensure that only qualified substitutes are employed in national schools. Last September Circular 21/90 was issued to boards of management advising them that untrained substitutes could be employed only in exceptional circumstances. If an unqualified substitute is employed the chairperson must complete and submit a certification form to the Department certifying that every effort was made to secure a qualified teacher before payment is issued. Letters are issued regularly to boards that employ unqualified substitutes.
Apart from the Department telling the boards of management of national schools they must fill in a form every time they obtain an unqualified teacher — proving that they have tried every other possibility — what steps are taken by the Minister or her Department to assist such boards of management in obtaining qualified teachers as substitutes? It would appear each board of management must hawk around the country seeking a qualified teacher, as a substitute, in a rush, perhaps having been advised only that morning or the evening before when it could appear also that there is no assistance whatsoever forthcoming from the Minister or her Department? What steps has the Minister taken to ensure that there are sufficient qualified teachers available because I am sure she would agree it is an absolute disgrace to have children in any school taught by an unqualified teacher?
The Deputy has raised many questions which I shall be delighted to answer. It is quite incorrect for the Deputy to state that I or my Department have not done anything to ensure that boards of management are assisted in obtaining qualified teachers.
The Catholic managers association say differently.
I have had meetings with the Catholic schools' managers association on the matter. They clearly told me they found it very difficult, despite the fact that they have drawn up rotas of qualified teachers within their respective areas, to locate or obtain qualified teachers in rushed circumstances. From what they have told me I am satisfied they have made every effort to do so. On the other hand, I have had several meetings with the INTO who have emphasised in their joint meetings with boards of management and the Department, that they wish to have qualified teachers only employed. Of course, that would be the wish of any education authority. I put it to Deputy Mac Giolla that the precise number of days on which substitute teachers are required to meet that need are, on the Deputy's admission, very uncertain. One never knows how often such disparities will occur. For example, in the year 1988 the number of school days on which such substitute teachers were required was 18,000 approximately whereas, in the year 1989, the figure was 9,325 only, demonstrating an amazing disparity between those two consecutive years. I should say that every effort is made by my Department to locate suitably qualified teachers in such circumstances.
As final evidence of what the Department are endeavouring to do in order to resolve this matter I should say that, at a recent meeting with the INTO — that is between their officials and myself — the matter of a panel system of qualified substitute teachers was raised, as it had been on an earlier occasion. At that meeting, which took place within the past few months, my Department gave a commitment to ascertain how a pilot scheme for such a substitute panel teachers arrangement could be put in place. Discussions are taking place between boards of management of schools, unions and ourselves on that matter.
I am glad to hear the Minister say that talks are in progress in regard to such a panel arrangement. Will the Minister say whether her meeting with the Primary School Managers' Association took place after their annual general meeting in May last when they passed a motion to the effect that no action had been taken by the Department to assist boards of management of schools in the procurement of trained substitute teachers.
I do not have the precise date of that meeting here. If it is a matter of such importance I will have it conveyed to the Deputy. I am not going to be tied down as to when a particular meeting took place, with the Catholic school managers of Ireland.
The Minister is deliberately misinterpreting the import of my question.
Deputy Mac Giolla has had a good innings on this subject. I am calling another Deputy.
(Carlow-Kilkenny): We all share the concern of the Minister at untrained teachers being employed in schools. Will the Minister and Members accept that teachers are human beings who may become sick overnight or early in the morning and realise that there are not teachers sitting outside every school in the country? Much as we might like to preclude untrained teachers from our education system we must realise also that principal teachers experience considerable difficulty in obtaining substitute teachers at short notice——
The Deputy appears to be embarking on a speech.
I made that point in replying — I was glad to note that Deputy Mac Giolla also acknowledged it — that, in the pressurised circumstances arising for the need of a qualified teacher, principals do experience such difficulty.
I am calling the next question.
I just want clarification. There are two questions down and I am entitled to ask a second supplementary.
Next question, please. Deputy Mac Giolla should obey the Chair.
The Minister deliberately misinterpreted what I was saying.
