Michael Moynihan
Question:7 Mr. Moynihan asked the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications if, he will confirm that the compulsory stop-over at Shannon Airport for all transatlantic flights to Ireland is still Government policy.
Ceisteanna — Questions. Oral Answers. - Transatlantic Route Arrangements.
Phil Hogan
Question:10 Mr. Hogan asked the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications whether there has been a change of Government policy on the Shannon stopover; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Seán Barrett
Question:19 Mr. S. Barrett asked the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications if he has plans to introduce direct flights between Dublin and the United States of America; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Madeleine Taylor-Quinn
Question:25 Mrs. Taylor-Quinn asked the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications if he has had any discussions with Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus in the past two months to make the necessary arrangements to promote Shannon Airport as a hub airport; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Ivan Yates
Question:44 Mr. Yates asked the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications if he will publish details of the recent report (details supplied) in relation to Aer Lingus; if he will confirm that this important report implied that unless there were changes in the trans-Atlantic route arrangements, the future of Aer Lingus was not secure; if he has any proposals to immediately ensure the leasing of sufficient 707 aircraft for the Shannon-Los Angeles route; the steps he is taking to ensure Aer Lingus will have flights for Los Angeles from next year on; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Eric J. Byrne
Question:47 Mr. Byrne asked the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications if his attention has been drawn to the opinion recently expressed by the President of the International Air Transport, that the survival of Aer Lingus on the North Atlantic route would be in doubt while the Shannon compulsory stop remained, and the similar views expressed at the same conference by the President of the American Society of Travel Agents; if he will outline his views on these statements; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
Toddy O'Sullivan
Question:49 Mr. T. O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications if he will commission NESC to carry out a comprehensive study of the retention of the Shannon stop-over in the context of the development of a hub airport in Ireland by 1995; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 10, 19, 25, 44, 47 and 49 together.
As I have indicated to the House on previous occasions, I have received many submissions and read many statements, including those referred to by Deputy Byrne, both for and against a change in current Government policy on the Shannon stop and I have met deputations from interest groups on both sides.
I have been giving a lot of consideration to the various submissions received. I have had extensive contacts with North American carriers about the possibility of their opening new air services to Ireland. To date, I have not received any firm proposals from them but I have given a commitment that, in the event of concrete proposals being made to me by any US airline for significant new or expanded services to Ireland which would require a change in existing policy, I will discuss these proposals with both the Shannon and Dublin interests to see how best Ireland can accommodate extra business.
I have also been keeping in close touch with Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus about the proposals they have made to North American and Soviet carriers about the potential of Shannon as an international hub. I have given them every encouragement in their efforts to interest international carriers in this concept. I understand that Aer Rianta and Aer Lingus have recently concluded an arrangement with a Soviet regional airline, whereby that airline will feed traffic between Minsk and the US via Shannon using Aer Lingus transatlantic services. This service is expected to commence on 2 December 1991.
Aer Rianta have also made proposals to other Soviet and North American carriers about the potential of Shannon as an international hub and a response is awaited from a number of such carriers.
I have also recently received proposals from Aer Lingus seeking approval to operate services between Ireland and Los Angeles, on the basis of a direct service to/from Dublin, and also for the operation of some direct services between Dublin and New York. The Aer Lingus proposals are supported by the results of a study by the Boston Consulting Group commissioned by Aer Lingus.
I have indicated to Aer Lingus that the position remains that there is no change in current Government policy in relation to the Shannon stop. I have no plans at present to commission a study in the matter but I will, however, continue to review the matter in the light of the steady stream of representations being received.
Is the Minister aware of the statements by the Minister for Justice on this issue? Will he clarify the context of the statement and whether there is any element of collective responsibility on this issue? Will he arrange to publish the report of the Boston Consulting Group on the economics of the routes and the future of Aer Lingus in the context of transatlantic business?
The Minister for Justice was expressing a personal view; he represents a constituency, which I imagine takes a very strong view on one side of the argument. Obviously there is a difference of opinion among a great many people, including Government Ministers. The Minister takes this view on a personal basis. I have no doubt, Deputy, that on your backbenches there are Members who take a different view from your own on this issue. Secondly, in regard to the Boston Consulting Group, I recently received their report. It is a very comprehensive report. I am studying it and I shall consider whether or not I should publish it. I would be inclined to publish the report if it is appropriate for me to do so.
Several Deputies have tabled questions on this matter, and I shall call them as they are before me here if they are present. I call on Deputy Hogan.
Will the Minister comment on the recent Government statement through the Minister for Justice that the Government are intent on changing Government policy shortly in relation to Shannon stop-overs?
I have just commented on that matter for Deputy Yates.
Does the Minister agree with the Minister for Justice in this regard?
I have stated the Government policy. The Minister for Justice, quite understandably given his constituency, was expressing his personal views on the matter.
There is not unanimous Government support in relation to this matter.
Order.
Is there unanimous support on that side of the House?
Is the Minister aware that following the statement by the Minister for Justice in September several tourism and industrial projects in the mid-west region were put on hold and that the creation of jobs in the mid-west is now in jeopardy? The Minister's response to questions today has done nothing to allay fears about the uncertain future of Shannon. Will the Minister assure the House categorically and without any trimmings that the future of Shannon is safe and that it will continue to be the transatlantic airport irrespective of representations made by any sources to the Minister or the Government in the future? Will the Minister further inform the House——
Please, Deputy Taylor-Quinn, I want to assist other Members.
How closely is the Minister examining the accounts of Aer Lingus? Is the Minister in a position to tell the House whether Aer Lingus are indirectly subsidising the Fly Dublin Direct committee?
I would be very interested if the Deputy let me have a list of the bodies who are getting nervous.
SFADCo, the IDA and Bord Failte.
I would appreciate a list from the Deputy. I am sure that the Deputy, like me, wants to do something. I shall expect a list from the Deputy in due course. Secondly, I would be very interested to receive another submission that has not been made available. Apparently Deputy Dukes has presented a paper to his party about Shannon.
Unlike the Minister's party.
I would be glad to have a copy of that report in due course, and the list from Deputy Taylor-Quinn.
The Minister does not have an answer to the question.
I have been very consistent on this issue all through. I have made it clear that I will not give a blank cheque to any airport here. If there is additional business available for Ireland then I will sit down with the authorities of Shannon and Dublin to discuss how Ireland Incorporated can take the additional business.
(Interruptions.)
A Deputy
The Minister is running with every hare and hound.
There is no certainty about the aviation industry.
The Minister is creating uncertainty.
Order. We shall now have brief questions from Deputies Moynihan, Byrne and Toddy O'Sullivan.
The assurances I sought in reply to Question No. 7 about a commitment to a compulsory trans-atlantic stop-over at Shannon have certainly been weakened following the Minister's reply. The Minister has confirmed that as of now it is the Government's policy but he has also given indications of a variety of discussions in which he is engaged. In regard to the damage done by the public statement by the Minister for Justice, in which he described Shannon Airport as "one old relic", I should like to ask the Minister who has responsibility for transport and tourism, whether he approves or not of that description of Shannon Airport. Does the Minister recognise the damage that has been done to our national image and how it reflects on management, workers and those associated with the tremendous growth made at Shannon throughout the years?
In fairness to the Minister for Justice, from my memory, he did not describe Shannon in any such way.
He described it as one old relic. The damage has been done.
He described his view of the regulation and that is a different thing. I know he would not subscribe to that view of Shannon Airport.
Government Members are great at paraphasing.
I wish to reiterate that there is no change in the Shannon Rule and that the Government are committed, as they always have been, to the future development of Shannon Airport and the region.
Is the Minister concerned that about 50 per cent of North American tourists coming to Ireland come via Great Britain and Europe and whether he is fearful for the very survival of the Aer Lingus limited transatlantic service to New York and Boston? Is the Minister concerned that in order for that service to survive it must be allowed expand its operational range to include Chicago, Los Angeles and other cities in the United States? Does the Minister not fear that the compulsory stop-over at Shannon will do for Aer Lingus what compulsory Irish has done for the Irish language, that is, kill it?
I do not see the immediate similarity between the Irish language and the Shannon stop-over——
The Minister will in time.
——but I shall certainly look into that. I wish to tell the Deputy that I am concerned about those matters. In fact, 50 per cent to 60 per cent of visitors to Ireland now come via the United Kingdom or other Continental countries. I am concerned about that trend.
It is all propaganda.
I was asked about certainty. There is no certainty in the aviation business; it is a rapidly changing business and we have to change with it.
(Interruptions.)
The Minister's said he does not intend to commission a study. I find that comment strange in view of his anxiety to get his hands on the report prepared by Deputy Dukes. That in itself is an admission that the Minister feels there is void there. There is now talk of a second airport in Dublin, which, I imagine, would not be environmentally acceptable to many of the residents of our capital city. If there is no stop-over at Shannon industries in the south west-region, namely, Cork and Kerry, will suffer badly.
Deputy O'Sullivan, please.
The tourist industry is one thing, but many multi-national firms in Cork and Kerry are dependent on Shannon as the vital link for their survival.
Deputy, I am very well aware of the strong opinions held on both sides of this argument. The reason I want Deputy Dukes' study is that I will not have to pay for it.
A compulsory stop-over in Cork would solve it all.
I should be very pleased to offer the Minister a free copy of my article in The Irish Times on the subject. I should like to ask the Minister why in his reply he indicated a willingness to review the policy in the light of proposals by American airlines but in relation to proposals made by Aer Lingus he does not appear to show a similar willingness to assist the national airline?
I am always willing to assist the national airline. I have been quite clear; I am talking about extra business.
A Deputy
What about the question of Los Angeles?
If I can be satisfied about extra business then I will sit down with both interests and discuss how best Ireland can handle extra business. That is a sensible and, practical approach to the problem.
Will the Minister give an undertaking that in the event of him commissioning a report on the Shannon situation he will take ecological factors into consideration, such as the extra use of aviation fuel in regard to the Shannon stop-over, the safety factor involved in the Shannon stop-over and, finally, the possible infringements of personal privacy?
The Minister should take the Taoiseach's recommendation into account when appointing consultants.
I shall do that, Deputy.
Does the Minister not feel in the observations he has pointed out to the House and to other people he talked to, that none of the policy changes he has spoken of which are being urged on him by American airlines, travel agents, Fly Dublin Direct and so on can in fact take place without a renegotiation of the bilateral agreement under which services between Ireland and the United States take place? Will the Minister not further agree that it is far more important than any of these spurious approaches being made to him by airlines or the representatives of airlines in North America that he busy himself looking at getting more access points for services in North America? That is the only way that whichever airport we are talking about will regain some of the traffic being lost to London.
On the latter point the Deputy is quite right. I am working on that and I am very conscious of it.
Can the Minister get a Cabinet decision accordingly?
In regard to the renegotiation of the bilateral agreements, that is the mechanism; there would have to be a change in bilateral agreements if any such change came about.
That disposes of Questions for today.
On a point of order, may I ask that Question No. 20 on today's Order Paper be held over until the Minister is in a position to give oral answers. Perhaps he might have it better prepared than he had in relation to Question No. 9?
I cannot be expected to go back like that. Normally I would assist the Deputy; he knows that.
(Limerick East): A Cheann Comhairle, a final brief supplementary——
This one is for the Limerick Leader.
(Limerick East): Will the Minister say whether Aer Lingus have made submissions to him on this matter?
Yes, they have.
On a point of order——
No, it is not a point of order, Deputy. The Chair has no control over the transfer of questions. I want to make that clear.
I had two questions tabled to the Taoiseach, one in relation to the civil unrest on the Cavan-Fermanagh border and the other to do with Northern Ireland policy.
I am sorry, the Deputy will have to deal with the matter in some other way.
I sought a further reply after eight months——
That disposes of Questions for today.
The Taoiseach, in reply to a similar question, gave me a detailed answer and I asked for a further reply after eight months——
No, the Deputy may not disrupt the business of the House in this fashion.
I am asking the Taoiseach if he would give the House the latest information——
Will Deputy Boylan please allow the business of the House to proceed in an orderly fashion.
Has the Taoiseach gone into hibernation for the winter in relation to issues of great importance? I had a further question to the Taoiseach; whether he was going to appoint a Minister for rural development?
Deputy Boylan, please desist——
A Cheann Comhairle, this is my only opportunity. People are asking what is happening in relation to rural Ireland and Government policy North and South.
Deputy Boylan, please resume your seat.
I have asked the Taoiseach questions and cannot get replies.
Will Deputy Boylan please resume his seat or leave the House.
A Cheann Comhairle——
Deputy Boylan, leave the House.
A Cheann Comhairle, no, the Taoiseach has not responded.
Deputy Boylan, leave the House.
Is he aware that yesterday morning children had to be taken to school by taxi because of the condition of county roads, while millions of pounds are being misappropriated and rural Ireland is——
Will Deputy Boylan please desist. Otherwise I shall have to ask that he be named——
It is an outrage.
On a point of order——
No, Deputy.
A Cheann Comhairle, I am seeking your guidance on a point of order. You are giving me a very short knock today.
No, you may not now, Deputy.