Vol. 412 No. 5
7 Mr. Noonan (Limerick East) asked the Minister for Finance if he will outline the steps he has taken to ensure that the terms of Circular 1/83 are implemented; if he intends modifying the terms of the circular to ensure full accountability of State agencies to both their parent Department and to the Department of Finance; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
30 Mr. Lowry asked the Minister for Finance if he has any plans to withdraw Circular 1/83 and to replace it with a new system of accountability of State companies to their parent Departments and his Department of Finance; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
74 Mr. Noonan (Limerick East) asked the Minister for Finance the steps he intends taking to ensure that both his Department and the parent Department of individual State companies adequately carry out their supervisory role over State companies; his views on whether the present situation is satisfactory; if he will list those Departments which have not implemented the terms of Circular 1/83; and if he will make a statement on the matter.
I propose to take Questions Nos. 7, 30 and 74 together.
Circular 1/83 provides guidelines on the practice to be followed in appraising and managing public sector capital expenditure projects. The terms of the circular apply to State bodies as well as to departmental expenditure. It is the responsibility of each sanctioning authority to ensure that specific procedures adopted in its area of control comply with the basic principles set out in the circular. The Department of Finance were assured by Departments, subsequent to the issue of the circular, that its terms were being observed. The circular is, in fact, under review in the Department of Finance at the present time, and may require some updating. I might add that this review commenced before recent events.
With regard to the Deputies' questions regarding the supervisory roles of the Department of Finance and other Departments vis-à-vis State companies, I presume that in using the term “companies” they have in mind all State bodies, including those which are boards and authorities.
First, let me say that there are already in existence a number of mechanisms designed to assist both the Department of Finance and parent Departments in exercising their supervisory roles vis-à-vis the State sector. In carrying out this role care has to be taken, particularly in the case of commercial bodies, that the principle of the autonomy of these bodies in their day-to-day operations is not diluted. There is a fine balance to be drawn here.
No system is perfect, however, and all call for review from time to time. In the light of recent developments the Deputies may be aware that the Secretary of the Department of Finance was asked to examine this whole question, and to report his findings and recommendations. He has done so, and his report is being examined by the Government. When we have completed this examination, the Government intend to prepare and implement updated guidelines for the semi-State sector.
(Limerick East): Would the Taoiseach agree that the former Minister for Finance, the present Minister for Agriculture and Food and the present Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, were grossly negligent in not implementing the terms of Circular 1/83 to ensure that both the parent Departments of the Irish Sugar Company and Telecom Éireann and the Department of Finance, were informed of the transactions which are now causing such scandals?
No, I could not agree with that. The matter has been fairly widely and thoroughly discussed and debated over recent weeks. I think that at this stage the best thing is to wait until we have the reports from the inspectors appointed by the court and then let us discuss the whole matter.
(Limerick East): Would the Taoiseach not agree that none of the inquiries, whether under the court or otherwise, are examining the accountability of any individual Minister? Would the Taoiseach not further agree that if his two Ministers, and his former Minister for Finance, were not grossly negligent, then the terms of Circular 1/83 were in place and all these Ministers would have been informed of the purchase of the Johnston Mooney and O'Brien site and would have been informed of the various transactions carried out by Greencore? Consequently, if they were not negligent in putting these procedures in place they were grossly negligent in not acting on the basis of the information provided through these procedures that were in place?
No, I do not agree with any of that. The question of the Ministers' supervisory accountability is one really for this House but I do not think this House can address the question of supervisory accountability until such time as it has available to it the inspector's report or reports. When the House has those reports then they will be in a position to raise here in this House, on an authoritative basis, any points they wish to raise in regard to the accountability of any Ministers in their supervision of the State bodies for which they have responsibility.
Mr. Noonan (Limerick East) rose.
If Deputy Noonan's final question is to be disposed of it must be responded to now.
(Limerick East): I will be brief.
You will have to be very brief, otherwise your question may go by default.
(Limerick East): May I put it to the Taoiseach that under paragraph 7 of Circular 1/83, minor matters of expenditure by State bodies should be reported to their parent Department and significant individual projects should be formally submitted to the Department of Finance for approval? In light of this would the Taoiseach not agree that it is grossly irresponsible of the Government to be pursuing business people through a multiplicity of inquiries?
I had hoped for brevity for obvious reasons.
(Limerick East): I am asking the Taoiseach if he will extend the scope of one inquiry to establish the accountability of Ministers, three of whom were clearly grossly negligent in not applying the procedures which are in place in the Government since 1983?
The time for dealing with priority questions is well nigh exhausted.
I totally reject that.
(Limerick East): Will the Taoiseach extend an inquiry to investigate——
I am proceeding now to other questions.
Ministers are accountable to this House and to nobody else.
(Limerick East): They are accountable to the Taoiseach. With respect the Taoiseach is after firing two of them.
We are proceeding to Question No. 9.
(Limerick East): With respect, a procedural wrangle which I was not involved in at the start of Priority Questions has eroded the time. I have been very modest in regard to that.
The Chair has regard to that. The Chair gave the House ample warning today as to what we should do in respect of these questions.
(Limerick East): May I ask one supplementary?
Question No. 9 has been called and it will be responded to.
(Limerick East): This is a very unsatisfactory procedure.
