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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Nov 1991

Vol. 412 No. 7

Nomination of Members of Government: Motion.

Tairgim:

Go gcomhaontóidh Dáil Éireann leis an Taoiseach d'ainmniú na Teachtaí Uinseann Ó Brádaigh agus Nollaig Ó Dobharáin chun a gceapaithe ag an Uachtarán mar chomhaltaí den Rialtas.

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the nomination by the Taoiseach of Deputies Vincent Brady and Noel Davern for appointment by the President to be members of the Government.

Subject to the motion being approved, I would propose to assign the Department of Defence to Deputy Vincent Brady. The other proposed arrangements about the assignment of Departments to members of the Government and about the removal and appointment of Ministers of State which I mentioned in my speech yesterday will remain in place.

Deputy Jim McDaid indicated to the House yesterday evening that he had asked me to withdraw his name for nomination as Minister for Defence. He gave a totally convincing rebuttal of the false and deplorable accusations from the Opposition benches that he was opposed to extradition, that he was a Provisional IRA sympathiser and similar unfounded charges. He went on to inform the House that, lest there be the slightest suspicion of any kind attaching to the Minister for Defence, and in the broader national interest, he had asked me to withdraw his name.

I fully accept that Deputy McDaid is completely innocent of the allegations made against him. He is an honourable man, a respected Member of this House, courageous and outspoken, who is totally opposed to the IRA and their abhorrent campaign of violence.

I accepted that in the circumstances it would not be appropriate to proceed with Deputy McDaid's appointment as Minister for Defence. Accordingly, as I have already indicated, I am putting forward the name of Minister of State, Deputy Vincent Brady, for appointment as Minister for Defence along with that of Deputy Noel Davern for appointment as Minister for Education.

I feel I must at this stage make a brief comment on the tone of yesterday's proceedings. Yesterday's debate was a further manifestation of a new and deplorable style of political assault in this House. The character and reputation of a decent and honourable Deputy, who I am sure would have made a very capable Minister and who I am certain would have acted correctly in every way, was crucified in an outrageous and indefensible manner. It is a dark day for civil liberties in this country when a respectable member of the community and a Deputy of this House, who along with members of all parties champions the innocence of an accused person, subsequently released by the Supreme Court, is attacked as virulently as Deputy McDaid was yesterday. I am tired, and the country is tired, of these hypocrites of virtue, ever ready with the instant moral judgment, the accusing finger, totally ignoring the basic right of everyone inside and outside this House to the integrity of their reputation until conclusively demonstrated otherwise.

It is a pity that you would not do that.

I recommend the new ministerial appointments and the reallocation of ministerial responsibilities to the House. They represent an able and effective team that will set to work at once to implement our ambitious and comprehensive Programme for Government.

There should have been two resignations yesterday.

Yesterday in the Dáil I said that this Government were prefoundly unstable because they had no sense of common purpose and as a result they were providing no leadership for the people. The events of yesterday have proven, far more eloquently than I could have foreseen, how deep seated is the inherent lack of common purpose or indeed basic understanding within the Government.

Before I deal with yesterday's events let me quote the precise words I used yesterday to describe the Government:

As long as this Government continue, everything is provisional. The maximum timeframe is two years, the minimum is two weeks. That is no way to run a country.

How wrong I was; the maximum timeframe for this Government in adhering to any decisions they take proved to be no more than about five hours. Nothing more eloquently demonstrates the makeshift character of this Government than what happened yesterday. Let us recall the circumstances.

The Taoiseach knew that he would have to replace two Ministers as long ago as last Friday — three full working days, apart from Saturday. In the intervening days he had several recorded meetings with the leader of his Coalition partner party, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, and probably many telephone conversations. Both the Taoiseach and Deputy O'Malley had fully accessible to them throughout that period reports from the Garda on court cases, on who gave evidence in them, on who associated themselves with the defendants and the anti-extradition protests.

And judgments.

Both Deputy O'Malley and Deputy Haughey would also have had personal recollections of newspaper reports on the Clarke case. Both knew all this since last Friday.

The position is that either the Taoiseach, as would be normal in a Coalition Government, discussed his proposed appointment with the leader of his Coalition partner party — in that case Deputy Des O'Malley is equally to blame with the Taoiseach for the shambles which occurred yesterday — or alternatively the Taoiseach did not discuss this proposed appointment before it was made with the leader of his Coalition partner party. Perhaps Deputy O'Malley did not even seek a discussion before the announcement was made in this House and heard it all for the first time yesterday when the nominations were announced. Quite frankly, I do not believe that is true; but, if it is, then truly this Government are doomed.

A Government in which there is such a lack of trust and consultation between the party leaders that a matter of this kind would not be discussed between them before the leader of one party announced it in the House is the worst possible kind of Government we could have and a Government who are quite truly profoundly unstable. If Deputy O'Malley was not consulted about this appointment before it was made and given ample opportunity to comment on it, then why in God's name do the Progressive Democrats want to continue with this sort of Government for the next two and a half years? As I said, I believe that Deputy Des O'Malley was fully and amply consulted by the Taoiseach well before this nomination was made. That is what I believe.

I further believe that Deputy Des O'Malley agreed to this nomination well in advance of its being made. If Deputy Des O'Malley did agree to the nomination and then subsequently changed his mind he is most certainly not fit to be a Minister let alone leader of a political party, however small. His party in sustaining him as leader in these circumstances demonstrate their own irrelevance, just as the Fianna Fáil Party demonstrated their own lack of purpose in maintaining their leader last Saturday.

Let me say to the Fianna Fáil Deputies that they were incoherent in their rage and humiliation here last night, but this is not the end of it. This is about the fifth time in this House in this Dáil that they have been brought to the brink and this is going to continue for as long as this Government continue. This humiliation is going to continue as long as this Government continue.

Are you the alternative? Some alternative.

This is going to continue as long as a Government stay in office under the joint "leadership" of Deputies Haughey and O'Malley. It is not a mutual partnership; it is a mutual paralysis. It is most certainly not a government. To the Fianna Fáil Deputies I say that their party have internal contradictions to resolve. They should resolve them in opposition, not in Government at public expense.

School debate.

They should not inflict their internal contradictions on the people. Neither they, their party or their country will gain from the continuance of this Government in office and they all know that well. They know well that neither their party nor their country will gain from a continuance——

(Interruptions.)

Order, let us have an orderly debate. Deputy Ahern will desist from interrupting. We shall have an orderly debate.

Take your medicine.

The Deputy is the Fine Gael Party's biggest liability in Opposition.

Please, Deputy O'Keeffe.

We heard you this morning on radio. Your parliamentary party opposed you in 1982.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy John Bruton to continue without interruption.

We are in a democracy and people are entitled to oppose it.

(Interruptions.)

I would suggest to the Fianna Fáil Deputies who are making a lot of noise——

Scallywags.

——in this House at the moment that they save their voices for their own party meeting and do their business there. I am utterly convinced that the continuance of this Government is not in the interests of this State.

Absolutely.

I am utterly convinced no good will come from the continuance of what we have seen during the past two years and most graphically their humiliating instability during the past 24 hours. The first requirement for a renewal in this country is that we establish a Government who have a clear sense of purpose, which undoubtedly this one do not have. You cannot perform in Government unless you have a sense of purpose. The fundamental problem with this Government is that neither the Taoiseach nor the Government have a clear sense of purpose. I have no fears regarding the election of a new Dáil, the sooner the 27th Dáil is elected the better because only then will we have a stable Government with a sense of purpose.

Yesterday marked the end of the 26th Dáil and those who wish to prolong it artificially are doing no service to their country. I say that with great clarity to Deputies opposite, some of whom are silent while others are noisy. I intend to spend the remaining time available to me talking, not about the sad, almost pathetic events of the past few days, but about the basis upon which a new Government can and will be formed in the 27th Dáil when the people are given a chance to elect them.

I will deal with the basis for such a Government under six headings: Northern Ireland, financial policy, jobs, Europe, collective responsibility and the reform of the Dáil. In the next Dáil we can and will elect a Government who will make real, durable progress in regard to Northern Ireland, based on an explicit recognition in our Constitution which will never come from this Government, on the right of the people of Northern Ireland to decide their own future; no territorial claims over the heads of the people of Northern Ireland should be made because they are entitled to their rights as we are to ours. No claim should exist in our Constitution which arbitrarily claims to govern them regardless of their dignity as people. That can only be changed in a new Dáil and progress will only come, as far as Northern Ireland is concerned, when that aspect of our Constitution is changed. Such a change, which will come in a new Dáil in a Government not led by either of the present parties, will usher in a new era of progress, harmony and co-operation on this island, of a kind which has not existed for 300 years.

I now turn to financial policies. In recent times the Taoiseach went so far as to undermine his then Minister for Finance. The rift which broke wide open in Fianna Fáil last Saturday can be traced directly back to the bypassing of the Minister for Finance in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress negotiations. This was followed by the deliberate undermining of the interviews of the Minister for Finance on the economy on the radio. It was all a game. The work of earlier years was wasted as far as economic policy is concerned because there never was and never will be any common sense of economic purpose in this Government. The recently revised Fianna Fáil-Progressive Democrats joint programme bears all the marks of this collapse of collective and individual responsibility in economic matters. The programme's promises on taxation and PRSI cannot be met without raising an additional £640 million by some other means. However, this so-called policy does not tell us where one penny of that will be raised. A Government and a coalition of parties which can simply talk about what they will raise, are not a Government with a policy but one with empty aspirations. The document was merely a list of empty aspirations without any choices being made to back it up.

The Programme for Economic and Social Progress had similar flaws; it contained commitments amounting to £888 million but again we were not told where one single penny of the money to pay for that would be found. Again, like the joint programme, the Programme for Economic and Social Progress is not a policy, it is no more than an aspiration. It is not a policy because a policy is about choices and no choices are made — or ever will be made — in a coherent sense by this Government as far as economic policies are concerned. I am determined that the 27th Dáil will elect a Government who will have clear economic polices. It is Fine Gael's intention to lead the formation of such a Government. However, we will insist that, before the Government are formed, prior to taking office there will be agreement on certain basic parameters. There will have to be negotiated agreement on a limit to Exchequer borrowing for each year and an agreement that there will be a balanced current budget over a ten year period so that we can get our debt-GNP ratio down to 60 per cent which we must do, as all Members know, if we are to participate in a single European currency.

I am also determined that there will be explicit agreement prior to the formation of a government in the next Dáil that taxation will not be allowed to exceed its present proportion of GNP. Basic budgetary policy must be agreed in advance of the formation of the Government in the next Dáil — and it will be.

Does the Deputy have a magic wand or formula to do all this?

Only on the basis of a sound budgetary policy——

Magic wand politics.

The Minister of State will have to restrain himself.

Sir, you are fairly quick to challenge Members who interrupt on this side of the House.

The Chair does his duty and can be seen to do it.

The Taoiseach has let the people of Cork down.

May I have an assurance that I will be allowed time to finish my speech because these interruptions are not fair?

Deputies on the other side of the House had enough trouble picking their leader.

The Deputy will have to restrain himself, this is not helping matters.

(Interruptions.)

I must insist that the Deputy in possession be heard without interruption. Let us maintain the standards of this House, they have been lowered.

May I suggest to some of the Deputies that, even at this early hour, there is another room in the House not far from here where they might find more entertainment?

That is a despicable thing to say.

There is no area in which the Government have shown a greater lack of any sense of collective purpose than in their response to the growing crisis of unemployment. They do not have a job strategy, they do not even have a Minister taking overall responsibility for employment. They rejected dismissively the suggestion of an all-party forum on jobs put forward by the Fine Gael Party during the summer and supported by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. However, in dismissing that they do not have a policy of their own. I am determined that the Government to be elected in the 27th Dáil will resolutely tackle Ireland's chronic unemployment problem. My party have already started work on a jobs Bill designed in one, comprehensive overall measure to clear the blockages to job creation right across our social system in areas like taxation, social insurance, labour law, rent policy, means tests and sectoral policies.

Our aim is to have one comprehensive measure which can be put into effect in the first three months of a new administration in a new Dáil. In the next Dáil we will also ensure that all Members can play a constructive role in helping to solve our jobs crisis. We will establish an all-party jobs forum to work with the social partners, something which Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats have refused to countenance.

The Government have no policy on how Europe should develop. The Taoiseach going to Europe is like somebody going to a meeting with the notice and agenda in his pocket and no proposals to make. Ireland is no more than a passive bystander in the debates being conducted by other countries about the future of Europe. Ireland is simply waiting under the Government for something to emerge so that it can agree or disagree because it has no policy of its own. It is my aim, however, that in the 27th Dáil a Government will be elected who will be committed to a clear, explicit and well understood policy on Europe. It will, I hope, be a Government committed to the creation of a federal Europe, but it will also be committed to the radical reform of European institutions in order to protect small nations in a democratic way through the establishment of an elected European Senate with equal representation for all states similar to that in other federal democracies like the United States of America. It will be a Government explicitly committed to a social Europe and not just to a free trade area. It will stand for a Europe in which Ireland will give a lead in matters like aid for the Third World rather than be the worst in the OECD, as we are under the present Government. It will also stand for a Europe in which there will be no hiding place for terrorists. I want to see a Government in this State fully committed to effective extradition throughout Europe where political motives will never excuse violent crime. I do not believe we have such a Government today.

I am also determined that in the next Dáil we will have a Government that behave in a collectively responsible way, unlike this Government, and in full accord with the provisions of the Constitution in that matter. We do not have such a Government now. The present Government have not honoured the provisions of collective responsibility as far as the Constitution is concerned. In the past two days some of their members have talked about standing aside from Cabinet decisions in regard to the sacking of junior Ministers. Was there ever a more eloquent expression of a lack of commitment to collective responsibility than the statement by the Minister for Energy that he was not going to participate in a particular Cabinet decision? Is he and his party part of the Government or not?

I would be grateful if the Deputy would now please bring his speech to a close.

I have been consistently interrupted and I would ask you to allow me to complete my speech. It is my intention that the next Dáil will elect a Government that will adhere strictly to the sound principle of collective responsibility. I hope that the next Government will not continue the luxury of rival internal press offices, financed by the taxpayer and briefing against one another and against individual Ministers. It is my intention that the next Government will conduct their business in Cabinet, with proper minutes and proper accountability, rather than in the private home of the Taoiseach or any other Minister. It is my intention that the next Government will respect the independence and integrity of the office of the Minister for Finance. No financial commitments will be entered into that do not have his or her consent or the authority of a prior Government decision. The next Dáil will end for good the aberration of personal Government that we have seen for the last four years, and for the last two years with the aid of the Progressive Democrats.

The next Dáil will not operate on the basis of inner circles or evasive answers. It is my intention that the Government in the next Dáil will establish a comprehensive committee system in which every member of Government will be answerable and every Member of this House will have a constructive voice. If, for example, the privatisation of a State company is being contemplated, each step along the road will be explained by Ministers to a committee of this House and not decided in the Taoiseach's home. Decisions by Ministers to appoint consultants will be taken on the basis of open tender, not on the basis of private conversations.

The time has come to call another speaker.

I propose that Ministers will be compelled to give evidence before the Joint Committee on State-Sponsored Bodies. We will never again have the spectacle of a Minister refusing to appear before that committee.

As Deputy Jim Mitchell did.

If Ministers are properly supervised by this House they in turn will properly supervise the committees, companies and agencies under their control.

I have to call another speaker now.

That is the key to preventing further scandals. That is the function of Dáil Éireann. Dáil Éireann is there to ensure that this Government do their job, and because this Dáil is not doing its job Ministers are not dong theirs.

I have given the Deputy some latitude. I must now call Deputy Dick Spring.

The Deputy was talking about democracy a few minutes ago. Is this democracy?

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Dick Spring, without interruption.

I thought the Broy Harriers had left your party.

The Deputy should stand up and do the honourable thing by a Donegal man.

Why did the Minister not defend him?

Deputy Harte knows the truth.

If this debate does not proceed in an orderly fashion, it will not proceed at all. I will adjourn the debate. Deputy Spring, without interruption.

They are not representing the Government.

Please, Deputy Barrett, behave yourself.

On a point of order, why have you singled out a member of the Opposition by name when there was constant interruption from that side of the House while I was speaking, without any protection by you, Sir?

Deputy Bruton, I would expect you to support the Chair.

I would expect you to protect the rights of Members.

The Chair is doing its best.

No, you are not doing your best. You are being unfair to this side of the House.

If I am not doing my best, change the Chair.

If you put the proposal before the House I will vote on it.

Deputy Spring.

You allowed scandalous interruptions and did not allow me to complete my speech.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

The Deputy had 26 minutes.

This is an unfair attack on the Chair. It is a disgraceful attack.

It is not an unfair attack.

I even gave the Deputy extra time, and the House noted that.

(Interruptions.)

This debate is obviously as sad as it is unprecedented and it warrants a certain amount of reflection. In the course of the debate in this House yesterday some remarks were made in relation to the difficulties experienced by the former Taoiseach, Deputy Garrett FitzGerald, in the Cabinet reshuffle of 1986. Those remarks were accompanied by a certain amount of preening and boasting about the quality of the exercise carried out yesterday. I imagine that the Minister for Justice, if he comes into the House today, may well be in a position to withdraw some of the remarks he made yesterday, particularly the boastful remarks which were totally unhelpful.

The Minister for Justice was not the only one to make remarks yesterday that were unhelpful. A number of statements were made in this House and a number of inferences drawn about the character of a Member of the House that simply do not stand up to critical examination. Remarks that described that Member, Deputy McDaid, as a fellow-traveller and that implied he would give away secrets to the Provos if he were appointed to the Cabinet were unworthy of the people who made them.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

I imagine that they too, if the opportunity arises today, will wish to retract those remarks. This House can on occasion, as we have just witnessed, be a rough place. It is a Chamber where tough questioning and political charge and counter-charge have their legitimate place. I have never felt constrained personally to draw back from trenchant criticism where I felt it was necessary and I know very few Members of the House who would, or should, feel so constrained.

We all have to be very careful about the inferences we draw about the character and honour of the people we are criticising. To draw attention to the involvement of Deputy McDaid in the James Pius Clarke case was legitimate and perhaps necessary; to question him closely and give him the opportunity to reply was desirable, but the explicit accusations that were levelled against him were not based on any detailed examination of his track record. He was in effect tried, condemned, and executed on the basis of one incident, an incident that ran counter to his general public position as far as we can tell. I wonder how many Members on all sides of this House could withstand that sort of campaign if it were based on one incident in which any of us were involved.

In short, I have to say that the honour of this House was somewhat besmirched by what happened here yesterday. It was redeemed somewhat by the dignified and creditable way in which Deputy McDaid responded to the accusations against him and withdrew his name last night. I, for one believed him when he spoke in this House last night, as I believe most of the Irish people will, and particularly when he said that he wanted only to act in the national interest.

I was among those critical of his appointment yesterday. My criticisms were based primarily on his inexperience, and on the wisdom of appointing anyone with so little experience to so sensitive a post. I believe, as I said yesterday, that his appointment was a foolish and dangerous one; but I do not, however, subscribe to the notion that the honour of any individual is fair game. That approach sadly turns politics into a very nasty game.

On the morning after one of the most brutal and vicious nights of slaughter that the North of Ireland has seen for many years, we cannot afford to be playing games here. I know that Deputy James McDaid was as horrified as every Member of this House was at the news from the North last night. I know and believe that he would do everything in his power, as every other Member of this House would, to bring the murderers involved in last nights awful atrocities to justice.

For all these reasons, I believe that many Members on all sides of this House will have cause to regret what happened yesterday. I hope that no one regrets it more than the Taoiseach. Criticism of the Taoiseach is, I believe, a different proposition. In this case there is a long track record to examine, a long series of questions that still remain to be answered, and a number of inferences that must be drawn from his actions and even from his silences on occasions. Deputy McDaid will, I hope, recover from the events of yesterday, and indeed his family likewise. The Taoiseach, I believe, does not deserve to recover from the incidents of yesterday. He has shown the most incredible contempt for his own party in the planning of this reshuffle, and in his contempt he has failed to take even the slightest account of the sensitivity of the Department of Defence.

I understand there is a well established precedent in this House, and a tradition that exists for very good reason, that Deputies from the Border counties are not normally appointed to this sensitive office. Any such Deputy becomes intensely vulnerable and is placed at personal risk by trying to occupy either of the security portfolios and to function as a Dáil representative at the same time. In addition, it has to be said that the Taoiseach either knew or should have known about the Clarke incident. He knew, or should have known, about the perceptions that would be created by Deputy McDaid's appointment and the way in which it would be used by people who are totally inimical to Ireland and our interests. Not only was the involvement yesterday of Ivor Stanbrook and Jim Kilfedder and others in the controversy at an early hour somewhat nauseating, it was also entirely predictable. Clearly, if the Taoiseach was anxious to show preferment to Deputy McDaid, as he was entitled to do, he should have been appointed to a less sensitive position. The Taoiseach's track record in relation to such appointments is unfortunately suspect and demonstrates a total lack of sensitivity to the country's needs. This latest fiasco is one for which the Taoiseach himself must carry total responsibility. As I said yesterday in the course of my speech I now say again that the Taoiseach must consider his own position as Taoiseach of this country.

Another issue to be considered, which should be considered this morning if either the Fianna Fáil Party or the Cabinet are meeting is the question of the Taoiseach's prime constitutional authority in this State. It appears to me that the Taoiseach has abandoned this to the Progressive Democrats; and perhaps the Leader of the Progressive Democrats, Deputy O'Malley, will speak on the role he played in yesterday's selection and proposed appointments. Is the Taoiseach able to stand up in this House and say that he is still a Taoiseach with authority? Has he abandoned the substance of that office to hold on to the vestiges of power?

The Taoiseach was arrogant yesterday and has shown gross misjudgment and insensitivity and therefore he must consider very seriously his position. The Taoiseach was given, it would appear, a temporary lease of life in relation to his position by the events of the parliamentary party meeting last weekend. There was an assumption — and members of his party were saying — that he, the Taoiseach would go in his own good time. However, once the indication is given and this statement is made, I question whether a man can retain authority to run the State at a time when the State needs authority, perhaps more than ever before. I hope that Deputy O'Malley, the Leader of the Progressive Democrats, will take the opportunity to come before his House to explain to us his involvement in the nominations of yesterday. From my observation, Deputy O'Malley's role in yesterday's affair certainly represents a considerable stain on his record in this House.

I had hoped that the events of last weekend would bring a new era to politics. We have had a number of rough weeks both inside and outside Dáil Éireann, but I am afraid that as long as Deputy Haughey is Taoiseach that is not going to happen. It would appear that Fianna Fáil Deputies have made their decision by a considerable majority last weekend, but one wonders if the question were on the agenda this morning whether they would decide likewise. Indeed, it is not for me or any party other than Fianna Fáil to advise as to what they need to do. However, I would say it is very obvious at this stage what needs to be done. The events of yesterday have brought this House to a new low and we are in an unprecedented situation. People must be asking themselves what authority has a Taoiseach who at 10.30 a.m. seeks to nominate Members to Cabinet and by 9 p.m. that evening has to come before this House to withdraw those nominations. The Taoiseach must and should, together with his Cabinet colleagues, consider his own position.

It would be wrong and unthinkable to begin my contribution to this debate other than with a total and utter condemnation of the murderous attacks carried out in Belfast last night by the Provisional IRA which left four men dead and one young child seriously injured. Most of us believed that over the past two decades the Provisional IRA had gone as low as possible, but we have seen them plumb new depths during the past few weeks; a bomb attack on a hospital and last night's mass sectarian murder. What sort of organisation sees the sick and injured as legitimate targets? What type of organisation is prepared to shoot and seriously injure an infant girl of just a few weeks old?

The Provisional IRA have long ago abandoned any pretence of being anything other than a sectarian murder gang. Their campaign has nothing to do with the unity of this island or of its people. The majority of their victims are Irish people. Indeed, the Provisional IRA have now killed more Irish people than the despised Black and Tans. Ritual condemnations of the Provisional IRA are no longer enough. It is not enough to condemn individual Provo atrocities and then ignore the source of the problem until the next outrage. Society must take a stronger stand. The Provos in their military and political forms must be challenged and confronted at every opportunity — on local authorities, the work place, the trade union movement, residents associations, sporting groups, in the pubs and on the streets and in the courts. Individually and collectively we must — this is a particular obligation on Members of this House — make it clear that as long as the Provos continue with their murderous activity, their members and those who act as supporters or apologists will be shunned and ostracised by all democrats.

It is against this background that the controversy surrounding the Taoiseach's attempt to nominate Deputy McDaid as Minister for Defence must be viewed. I was the first Deputy to raise the matter in this House yesterday and I stand over everything I said and I make no apology what so ever for doing so. I accept Deputy McDaid's statement that he deplores the campaign of the Provisional IRA in Northern Ireland but I have to put it to him that his enthusiastic involvement in the campaign of James Pius Clarke to evade extradition did not give that message. I have heard Deputy McDaid and other Fianna Fáil Deputies protest the innocence of Mr. Clarke. I am not sure whether they were saying he was innocent of the ten counts of attempted murder and wounding with intent to do grevious bodily harm, and the possession of firearms with intent to endanger life, for which he was sentenced to 18, 15 and 14 years to run concurrently in prison; or were they saying he was innocent of involvement in the mass breakout of Provo prisoners from the Maze Prison in 1983, during which a warder was murdered; or were they saying he was innocent when he was arrested in the Republic in December 1984 and charged with hijacking a car following a Provo gun attack on the Border which resulted in the deaths of three people? Or are they suggesting that Mr. Clarke was innocent of attempting with other top Provisional IRA prisoners to blast and shoot his way out of Portlaoise Prison in 1985——

That is right.

——for which he received an additional three years in jail?

And, Deputy Spring, you were on the security committee with me when that happened.

Attempts by some Members of Fianna Fáil to draw a comparison between Mr. Clarke and the Birmingham Six are completely disingenuous despite what was implied by the Taoiseach here this morning in his speech, in which he used a powerful juxtaposition of phraseology and said:

It is a dark day for civil liberties in this country when a respectable member of the community and a Deputy of this House who along with members of all parties champions the innocence of an accused person subsequently released by the Supreme Court, is attacked as virulently as Deputy McDaid was yesterday.

What innocence were you talking about?

They simply did not decide on the innocence of Mr. Clarke in the Supreme Court. What they decided — for a number of legal reasons not related to the guilt of Mr. Clarke or, indeed, his innocence — was that he should not be extradited. So the Taoiseach, rather than clearing up the situation here today, is in fact muddying the waters.

Just as Deputy McDaid recognised that his taking office as Minister for Defence would damage the country, it is my view that Deputy Haughey should also recognise the fact that his continued position as Taoiseach of this country is damaging the country and that the kind of statement heard in the Dáil today does nothing to reassure anybody inside or outside this House.

Mr. Clarke was over a long period of time actively involved in Provisional IRA activity. He participated in the Provisional IRA structure in Portlaoise jail. It is against that background that the involvement of a Minister for Defence designate has to be viewed.

I accept that it is quite legitimate for any TD to express concern about the legal rights of any person whose extradition is sought from this State. I also accept that other members of Donegal County Council were concerned about the possible extradition of Mr. Clarke, but the other members of Donegal County Council did not come down to the Four Courts and join with the Provo mob in celebrating the release of Mr. Clarke. Given the continuing murderous events in Northern Ireland, there is an obligation on public representatives to ensure that they are not used in any way as part of any Provo propaganda campaign——

Hear, hear.

——as Deputy McDaid was.

I draw the attention of the House to the fact that I had a case in Dublin North-West in which Mr. Ellis was being sought to be extradited. I refused — as indeed did Deputy Tunney, who sits on the Fianna Fáil benches, — to be drawn into that campaign and refused to accept that we should be involved in any way in a Provo propaganda campaign which sought to undermine the legitimate law of this State in relation to extradition.

At best, Deputy McDaid showed a major error of judgment. His appointment as Minister for Defence would have damaged the Government and would, as I said yesterday, have sent entirely wrong signals to the victims of the violence in Northern Ireland. I welcome the fact that Deputy McDaid decided to withdraw his name last night. By doing so he has saved the country from enormous international embarrassment and potential damage. I acknowledge the personal sacrifice he has made in doing so.

This whole debacle has thrown the judgment of the Taoiseach into question once again, however. When he nominated Deputy McDaid, did he know of the Deputy's involvement with the Clarke case? Did he not consider that that was important? Did he not give any consideration to the way in which the appointment would be viewed in Northern Ireland and in Britain, or does he regard that as unimportant?

For a Minister designate to have to withdraw even before his nomination is voted on by the Dáil is unprecedented. Deputy Haughey was being hailed after the week-end as a masterful parliamentary tactician. Yesterday's events show that the Fianna Fáil hero of the weekend has feet of clay. His record of own goals and fatal errors of judgment is unprecedented in Irish politics.

The rejection of Deputy McDaid is a rejection of Deputy Haughey as Taoiseach. Just as Deputy McDaid recognised that his taking office as Minister for Defence would damage the country, Deputy Haughey, the Taoiseach, should also recognise that his clinging to power as Taoiseach is contrary to the national interest. His latest contribution to public life should now be to resign as Taoiseach and to make way for a successor who, if he will not have the confidence of all of the Members of the Dáil — which would be highly unlikely — would at least have the confidence of the Members of his own party.

(Interruptions.)

What do the events of yesterday say about the Progressive Democrats? Deputy O'Malley has some explaining to do to this House. When he spoke yesterday I invited him to comment on the suitability of Deputy McDaid as Minister for Defence. He refused point blank to do so. He made no reference whatsoever to either Deputy McDaid or Deputy Davern. I am sure that Deputy O'Malley will speak in the debate again today and again I invite him to answer some questions. Was Deputy O'Malley consulted in advance by the Taoiseach about the nomination of Deputy McDaid? Did he approve of the nomination? Did he know about Deputy McDaid's involvement in the Clarke case when he spoke with the Taoiseach? Was it that he knew about the case but was prepared to turn a blind eye to it in the hope that it would not be raised in the debate? Was it only when the matter was raised by me and subsequently taken up by other Deputies that it became a matter of embarrassment for the Progressive Democrats? Why did neither Deputy O'Malley nor Deputy Quill, who also spoke for the Progressive Democrats, have nothing to say to the Dáil yesterday about it?

The Progressive Democrats are supposed to be advocates of open government, yet they effectively ignore the House on virtually all major issues and conduct their business with Fianna Fáil behind the closed doors of the party rooms. The Progressive Democrats in fact have no clothes left. The only bond holding this Coalition Government together is the wish to self-preservation, and even that is not likely to be strong enough to save it from coming apart at the seams in the very near future.

Members of the Dáil who raised very legitimate questions yesterday about the suitability of Deputy McDaid for the position of Minister for Defence have been vilified by Fianna Fáil Deputies and have been criticised by some news media commentators, but what the Dáil was doing yesterday was the job for which Deputies are elected. We are required to approve the nomination of Members to Cabinet. Imagine the public and news media criticism there would have been had we failed to raise the Clarke case and had Deputy McDaid's nomination been nodded through and gone on to create a major source of embarrassment for the Government and the country. We are constantly accused here of being a cosy club, a sham where there are no real differences and where issues are generally papered over. Then when we raise issues of real concern about who forms a Government we are told that we are being childish, that we are being unparliamentary and that we have no right to raise matters of that kind.

I did not raise any question in relation to the integrity of Deputy McDaid yesterday. I questioned his suitability as a person to run the Ministry of Defence. I stand over that and I think I have been vindicated in the events that have since taken place. However, I do not agree with all that was said yesterday by some Deputies here on this side of the House in relation to Deputy McDaid. I particularly regret the statement that there might be the possibility that sensitive information could get into the wrong hands if Deputy McDaid was in Government. I do not accept that at all. I do not accept any attacks on the integrity of Deputy McDaid as a person. Nonetheless I do not accept that he would have been a suitable person to have filled the sensitive post of Minister for Defence in view of the matters I have outlined.

Neither do I accept that the Taoiseach should come into this House in pained, injured dignity and talk about the way the standards of this House have been lowered. It was the Taoiseach himself who at the very beginning of the confidence debate in this House, when this session began, launched a smear attack on my party, and on me, backed up by the Minister for Justice, largely based on Provo propaganda, in attempts to undermine the case we were making for clean Government in this country and proper ethics to be established in the relationships between business and politics.

The Taoiseach is the author of his own misfortune in that regard. I refuse to accept any lecture from him about how matters should be conducted in this House. In that debate the Taoiseach came into this House and, off the cuff, implied that I had had a meeting with a person whom he described as the chief of staff of the Official IRA and that Deputy Rabbitte had done likewise. The Taoiseach has never withdrawn that allegation, has never brought any information onto the floor of this House either to support or deny it. I have invited him to take whatever information is available to him to the Garda, telling him that I would co-operate in any way I can with the Garda to clear up that matter. I am still waiting for him either to come into the House or to furnish the Garda with whatever information he has at his disposal.

What is more sinister is that the Government Press Secretary has gone around this House touting the name of a man outside this House, an innocent man, who has never had any connection whatsoever with paramilitary organisations as the chief of staff of the Official IRA. It is that kind of sinister undermining of Irish politics for which the Taoiseach is responsible. I have no doubt that history will condemn him as the appalling hamfisted, clay-footed Leader of this State over the past ten years.

Again today we have witnessed, as we have in recent weeks and particularly since August last, repeated attempts by Fine Gael in particular, and the Labour Party, to destabilise Government in any way possible, to drive a wedge between the Progressive Democrats and Fianna Fáil, to undermine the Government——

The party opposite do not have to do anything.

——and to set one segment against the other. The sad part of all of this is the extent to which the Fine Gael Party in particular are prepared to go in their attempts to destabilise the Government. We have seen a new low standard from the benches opposite over the past couple of days.

The Government are now in a very strong position. We have a new Programme for Economic and Social Progress, we have negotiated a new Programme for Government with the Progressive Democrats and are committed to a vigorous programme with our social partners. The Taoiseach has gone for a substantial reshuffle and rejuvenation of his Government at this time. He has looked imaginatively at the second half of the term of his Government — the two and a half years remaining — and introduced changes designed to implement the Programme for Government drawn up in conjunction with our colleagues in Government, the Progressive Democrats.

If one looks at the overall position one will find the Government set for a vigorous approach to the second half of their term of office. It is no wonder that Deputy John Bruton, in particular, feels he must do his utmost to undermine the Government, to cause dissension and confusion among the ranks in his almost mad quest for power at this stage. At first, this might have appeared somewhat funny, or even irrelevant, but this mania of his has become almost dangerous. He is thrashing around like a bull in a china shop; he is causing endless damage to people and the institutions of this State——

We will see what the Minister knows about bulls within the next few weeks.

——regardless of the importance of these institutions, regardless of people's business associations, of the work that has to be done. The Opposition have taken their minds completely from present objectives in the national interest.

Yesterday's scurrilous attack by a number of Members on the Opposition benches, Fine Gael in particular, the attempted character assassination of Deputy McDaid, was the lowest level they reached in this campaign. It was a very sad day to witness the way in which Members concerned, particularly Deputies John Bruton, Noonan and Taylor-Quinn scurrilously and scandalously attacked and made allegations about a very fine Deputy, Deputy McDaid. Deputy McDaid is a very honourable, respected person, one who has had to stand up to the pressures of the Provos and the IRA, who has repeatedly come out and stated his position in relation to them and their heinous attacks, their abhorrent campaign of violence. In political terms Deputy McDaid is a young, articulate, professional person, a person who can, and I believe will in the future, make a significant contribution to this country through his membership of Dáil Éireann and through the Government of the day.

I am very happy that Deputy Spring has dissociated himself from many of the remarks made yesterday. In fairness to Deputy De Rossa, I should say he attempted to do likewise at the end of his contribution, to withdraw from any imputation of a lack of integrity and from the specific allegations levelled against Deputy McDaid who is a person of great honour and integrity. I am very glad they did so because, in so doing, they have restored the honour of this House to some extent; to some extent they have lessened the damage done to a very honourable Deputy yesterday and, to some extent, redeemed themselves and their parties in these very sad circumstances.

On a point of order, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, I do not accept that my party needed to be redeemed in relation to what I said in this House yesterday.

Would Deputy De Rossa please stop interrupting?

I am not interrupting, I am——

You are interrupting.

I am being misrepresented.

You will have to wait; you are not the only person to be misrepresented.

Deputy John Bruton is very anxious to get into Government at present, to get his hands on the power of Government, but I predict he will be sitting over there watching the position for quite some time to come. In his recent speeches he has been anticipating circumstances in which he will be in Government and will have the opportunity to exercise his authority to the fullest possible extent. I dread that day, having listened to Deputy John Bruton over the past couple of months. I know that, from his behaviour and that of some of his colleagues on the other side of the House, we will all be found guilty by association, whether it be in business, as we witnessed in regard to many recent incidents, in relation to the exercise of civil liberties, or in personal relationships.

I predict people will fear the day, if it ever arises, when Deputy Bruton is in Government. That is what sprang to mind when I listened to the further harangue in which he engaged here this morning. Hopefully such circumstances will not arise for a very long time and, possibly, not at all. The Government are determined to continue the Programme for Government agreed with the Progressive Democrats, to put that programme into operation, to overcome many of the obstacles in the way of its implementation and get on with the job expeditiously and effectively. A number of Ministers have moved to new portfolios, including myself. I welcome the appointment of the two new Ministers and of the new Ministers of State, Deputies John O'Donoghue; Michael Kitt and Dermot Ahern. I regret that Deputies Reynolds and Flynn and Deputies Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, Noel Treacy and Michael Smith are no longer directly involved with us, other than through the parliamentary party. Deputies Reynolds and Flynn particularly have made a very substantial contribution through their ministries. This will be fully recognised.

What happened to them?

I welcome the new portfolio which has been allocated to me. I regard it as a very great privilege to be involved in one of the oldest Departments of State and one which covers such a wide band of the economy and so many people. I have greatly enjoyed working in the Department of Social Welfare and with the staff there. The civil servants in that Department are of the highest standard and will continue to do an excellent job. It has been a privilege for me to work with them in the development of the work of the Department over the years. I thank Deputies who have supported me in that work through suggestions and contributions in this House.

I face into a new Department at a very difficult time. Negotiations at EC level are of prime importance and will take a major part of the Department's attention in the current circumstances. The whole question of intervention and its control has also come very much to light in recent times and will require a great deal of attention. I am interested too in development. I will be particularly interested to see a development plan for the Department for the future. I see the need to develop at two levels in parallel. We must tackle major issues at EC level, reforms in the Common Agricultural Policy and the control issues which are involved in intervention, but at the same time it is vital that there be a development arm in the Department. This I will be discussing with the officials in the first instance and I will be giving attention to it as I progress in the Department.

I am also concerned about the small and not so small farmers who are having a particularly difficult time. They will require special attention. We have gone some way towards setting up pilot studies in the application of the family income supplement scheme to farmers and I will continue, in conjunction with the Department of Social Welfare, to develop those pilot studies.

Education and research in all fields of agriculture are crucial. I should like to see a Department driven by marketing, research and technology. We have some of the finest technology in the world, particularly in agriculture. It is important that this technology be related to marketing strategies and objectives to give a new drive to those sectors of agriculture which have the greatest potential in the current circumstances. I also welcome the opportunity to participate in the LEADER programme which is creating such interest and into which businesses and communities have put so much time and effort. It can be very fruitful in setting future directions in the broad area of integrated rural development.

I regard the farming organisations as having a central role to play and I plan to communicate with them, to meet them and to join with them in developing agriculture to its utmost. Contrary to the view held by some, there is considerable scope for the development of agriculture in its widest sense, recognising the vital contribution which the major elements of agriculture make to our economy and our people and the crucial need to protect those in the proposed reforms of the Common Agricultural Policy. People in urban and rural areas do not realise sufficiently our dependence on agriculture and on agriculture-related industries, ranging from transport and storage to food processing, packaging and so on.

I see an interesting, stimulating and exciting challenge for the future and I look forward to tackling the job in that Department. I wish the other Ministers every success in their new portfolios. I congratulate the new junior Ministers and wish them well in the responsibilities they are undertaking.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Barnes.

Is that satisfactory? Agreed.

We have had in recent weeks and months a type and style of Government that has produced unprecedented insecurity and scandal. The unprecedented events of yesterday in the proposed appointment of Deputy McDaid to the Department of Defence show a serious lack of judgment on the part of the Taoiseach. It was the constitutional duty of the Fine Gael Party as the main Opposition party to bring to the attention of this House the concerns we had with that appointment. We make no excuse for performing our constitutional duties yesterday in setting out those concerns. I do not want to rake over the coals of the debate which took place yesterday. Suffice it to say that it is my view, and that of the Fine Gael Party, that a Member of this House has no business associating with a member of the IRA and has no business being used by the Provisional IRA in campaigns against extradition.

The Taoiseach made the extraordinary comment in the Dáil today that all Deputy McDaid was doing was acting as the champion of the innocence of an accused person, that he was seeking to help Mr. Clarke in making the case that he was innocent of the crimes of which he was convicted. By implication this suggests that James Pius Clarke was not a member of the IRA. James Pius Clarke was a member of the IRA and was not only convicted of attempted murder in Northern Ireland in 1979 but also convicted within this jurisdiction. A car chase took place through County Donegal which resulted in his being sentenced to 18 months imprisonment in April 1985 when he was pursued by the Garda Síochána. In November 1985 James Pius Clarke was part of an IRA group who attempted a mass breakout from Portlaoise prison and was subsequently sentenced to three years imprisonment.

James Pius Clarke was not found by our Supreme Court to be innocent of the crimes of which he was convicted. I want to quote from the Irish Law Reports Monthly, volume 10 of 1990, which states:

The appellant was arrested on 26 March 1978, in Northern Ireland, and was charged with attempted murder and a number of other offences arising out of an armed raid carried out by a number of men on the home of a family called Harper in Castlederg, in County Tyrone on 2 February 1977.

Whilst in the custody of the RUC on 27 March 1978, he made a statement, which he signed, admitting his participation in the raid, and identifying the type of weapon which he used and the part in the raid which he took, which consisted of firing at a car that arrived into the farmyard during the raid. Some of the details contained in this statement were at his subsequent trial corroborated in part by forensic evidence, though such evidence did not afford proof of the appellant's participation in the raid.

He was tried before His Honour Judge Russell at the Crown Court in Belfast, sitting without a jury, and he was represented at the trial by a solicitor and by junior and queen's counsel. From the judgment of Russell J. which was exhibited in the High Court, it is clear that no challenge was made to the admissibility of the appellant's statement, or to the method by which it had been obtained. The appellant did not give any evidence nor tender any evidence on his behalf. He was convicted of a number of offences and sentenced on 1 June 1979 to a number of different concurrent terms of imprisonment, the longest of which was eighteen years.

I should state that, according to the law report of that time, he was sentenced on ten counts of attempted murder. The report goes on to say:

Although the appellant now denies guilt for the offences of which he was convicted, the only explanation given by him for his failure to give evidence either with regard to the admissibility of the statement or to the main issue of guilt or innocence, is that he did not think he would be believed.

It was established by the respondent in the High Court that in Northern Ireland law the most ample rights of appeal exist from the findings of a Crown Court in which an accused is tried on a criminal charge by a judge sitting without a jury.

They include a right of appeal without any leave to the Court of Appeal on any question of law and a right of appeal, with the leave of the court, on questions of fact or on mixed questions of fact and law. The Court of Appeal has in any appeal before it wide-ranging powers in the interests of justice, at its discretion, to admit fresh evidence.

James Pius Clarke did not seek to appeal his conviction. The Supreme Court held in the judgment it delivered that that conviction stood. The only reason James Pius Clarke was not extradited to the North was due to the fact that some of those who had previously escaped from the Maze Prison and been returned to that prison had been subjected to violence at the hands of prison warders. Because of the fear that he could be subjected to such violence he was not extradited. The refusal to extradite James Pius Clarke was not a refusal based on establishing that he was an innocent man. It was not a refusal based on saying that he had not participated in the raid for which he had been convicted. It was not a refusal based on saying that he was not guilty of the counts of attempted murder for which he had been convicted. It is a bit much for the Taoiseach to come into this House today and say that all Deputy McDaid did was champion the innocence of an accused man. James Pius Clarke not only stands accused but stands guilty of the offences for which he was convicted not just in Northern Ireland but also in this State.

It is somewhat disingenuous for the Leader of the Labour Party to suggest that Members on this side of the House should not have raised that issue yesterday in the context of Deputy McDaid's unfortunate attempted appointment to the Department of Defence. Deputy Spring more than anyone else, having been a member of a previous Government, knows the implications and the seriousness of that particular position.

That is not what I said.

It was also disingenuous of Deputy Spring to make the comments he made having regard to his propensity over recent weeks and months to come into this House and launch personalised attacks on individuals who are not Members of this House and who cannot even defend themselves in this House.

He did this for good reasons.

We had a withdrawal by the Labour Party of allegations made against gardaí in the Fairbrother case. We had personalised attacks——

On a point of order, I wish the Deputy would be more careful with his remarks. There was no withdrawal of anything I said in relation to that matter. If he wants to get the real reaction of some members of Fine Gael to this whole business he should ask Deputy Harte to come into the House.

We had withdrawal by members of the Labour Party — indeed Deputy Quinn sneaked the withdrawal into The Dublin Tribune— of allegations made by Deputy Spring in relation to members of the Temple Bar Company, allegations made at Question Time in this House which suggested that there had been improper behaviour by members of the Temple Bar Company, allegations that these people could not defend themselves against in this House.

What took place in this House yesterday in the context of the debate in which the House was asked to confirm or deny confirmation of the appointment of a Member of this House as Minister for Defence was quite appropriate. It is only fair to say that Deputy McDaid was right to withdraw his name from that appointment. By so doing he saved not just this House but this State from considerable international embarrassment. Suffice to say that I do not think there is any need to address this issue further.

I want to refer briefly to the general behaviour of the Government. The picture painted of the Government — this picture is popularly painted by some Members of this House — depicts Fianna Fáil as the bad guys and the Progressive Democrats as the good guys, similar to the old style cowboy movies with the Progressive Democrats galloping over the horizon wearing their white hats putting manners on the Fianna Fáil Party. The Progressive Democrats are as much a part and cause of the current insecurity in Government as the Fianna Fáil Party. The Progressive Democrats seem to be fine in Government not in preventing messes but in attempting to tidy up messes after they have happened.

In relation to the various scandals which have taken place, the main role of the Progressive Democrats seems to be to investigate what happened after the event rather than ensuring that the event does not take place in the first instance. As a party, they have a unique contribution to make in closing stable doors after the horses have bolted. Deputy O'Malley's performance yesterday was a classic example of that. Having been informed the night before of the new members to be appointed to the Government it was in or around 6 p.m. yesterday evening when he suddenly realised that there were problems and reversed the approach he had taken in this House some two hours earlier.

The Progressive Democrats seem to stand over the sort of shoddy political performance we get from the Government Press Secretary. Yesterday the Taoiseach was very evasive with regard to the role of the Government Press Secretary, a political appointee whose basic role in life is to act as the political hitman for the Taoiseach, lashing out if not spreading unfounded rumours about members of the Opposition such as Deputy Spring and members of his Government.

The style and standard of politics which the Government led by the Taoiseach have brought to this House is a style and standard of politics which this country can do without. The attempt by the Progressive Democrats to distance themselves and apply a sort of political Teflon factor to their involvement in Government is no longer taken seriously by the vast majority of people. It is in the interests of the country that the Government recognise that they should leave office. The Fine Gael Party can well provide an alternative Government. We may have lost 20 seats in the election in 1987 but there is no reason we cannot regain those seats in the election which I believe should take place in a very short time.

Apart from the uncertainty, the insecurity and the scandals there are two very profound reasons why the Government should go. They have presided over an extraordinary jobs crisis with 260,000 people unemployed and a prediction that the unemployment rate may reach 325,000. They are refusing to take a very basic initiative of establishing a jobs forum which is widely called for and which would allow the best brains in the country and Members of this House to come together to tackle the jobs crisis. So far as the Government are concerned it is a crisis to be ignored and they are not willing to face up to it. Racked by scandals, insecurity and internal political division they are incapable of confronting the problem.

In the context of Northern Ireland the Government sit back and watch the murder and mayhem take place. I wish to join with other speakers, Deputy De Rossa in particular, who mentioned the atrocious murders committed in Northern Ireland last night. They are horrifying because of the number of raids that took place and the number of people killed on one night but are typical of what has been happening in the North and indicate the incapacity of this Government to take the initiative; things are just drifting. They have no suggestions, no policies. They are not willing to take any initiatives. We have got to tackle the jobs crisis. We have got to put an end to the violence on this island and provide a framework to allow the two communities within Northern Ireland to come together and isolate the men of violence. That cannot and will not happen while the Government are in office.

I do not believe that the reshuffle by the Taoiseach will in any way change the approach of this Government. Indeed, this Government, in the light of the events of the last 24 hours, are now in terminal decline. We are seeing the death throes of the 26th Dáil. It is in the interests of this country that the electorate at this time be given an opportunity to elect an alternative Government. Fine Gael can credibly and properly provide that alternative. I do not believe the motion before the House should be supported.

Within the eight minutes at my disposal I will concentrate on one dimension. There has been, and always will be among Members of any House of Parliament a great resolve in procedures and rules to deal with the issue of misrepresentation of Members. None of us like being misrepresented. However, while it may be acceptable and democratic to deal with misrepresentation there has been no thought, no planning or promotion with regard to under representation. I am referring to lack of representation of the rights, the interests and the issues of women in this House. Women's representation was poor enough before this reshuffle but at least we had a Minister of State, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, who had responsibility for women's affairs. She had to deal with women's affairs along with a very crowded portfolio. I wish to pay tribute to her for the commitment she showed as chairwoman of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Women's Rights and to women's issues.

I should like to remind the House of the competence she displayed and her genuine commitment to our integration into Europe. I pay tribute to her for her contribution during Ireland's EC Presidency. Her position was marginalised and, as usual, she was the woman behind the scenes responsible for organisation but was not brought to the front line to receive the bouquets. This raises a fundamental point. The Government, having abolished the section for women's affairs — one of their first decisions — have now abolished the post of Minister of State for Women's Affairs. With the women of the country I contend that the least we should have, considering the under representation of women in this House, is a senior woman Minister. There has not been a hint as to who may or may not take up the responsibility for women's affairs after the reshuffle.

I am not talking of minorities although what we do to the majority of women in Ireland is similar to what we do to minorities. More than 50 per cent of our population are women. They keep this country going mostly in an unpaid, voluntary and unvalued way. We hear of commitments and lip service is paid to programmes for the rightful demands of women. One of the latest is contained in the recommendations in the interim report of the Second Commission on the Status of Women. The Taoiseach took great pride in stating on many occasions that not alone did he set up the First Commission on the Status of Women but he also established the second commission. One of the recommendations of the Second Commission on the Status of Women, who reported early this year, was:

As the boards of State-sponsored bodies are reconstituted or set up Government policy should guarantee a minimum of 40 per cent of both men and women among the direct Government nominees.

Not only have the Government reneged on that recommendation with regard to their nominees and made no effort to increase it but they have decreased it. The position of women in the Parliament and at decision-making level, is now worse than before the reshuffle, although the Taoiseach pledged to accept that recommendation and others when that report was presented to him. It was a sham, it was cynical and it raised expectations that were dashed without even a thought. Other speakers are dealing with other aspects of what the Taoiseach did and did not do. The Taoiseach in the reshuffle did not honour national and international commitments to the United Nations, the Interparliamentary Union and to the women of this country. I hope the women of the country will recognise what has been done and remember that at the next election. In that election which is on the horizon — they should bear in mind how this Government treated them and the women in this House. They demoted a woman and abolished her position ignoring a recommendation by an outside commission and international commitments.

The Taoiseach should tell us who is responsible for women's affairs in the Government. Who will monitor progress — slow and painful as it is — in Departments, and on State boards? We need that information so that we can present reports from Ireland at international conferences. There are international meetings at European level. There is a preparatory conference for the United Nations Conference of 1995 and it seems that Ireland is not even part of that. We either have full commitment or we get out. The Government should stop fooling the women with regard to any commitment. I hope the Commission will take on board what has happened here today and will wonder how relevant the recommendations will be.

Yesterday was a very sad day in this House. An honourable Member of the House was vilified and his character was assassinated mainly by the Fine Gael Party. Deputy Shatter said this morning that the Opposition had a constitutional duty and that they had fulfilled that duty in the House yesterday. They went well beyond filling it in the manner in which they approached the position of the proposed new member of Government. It is fair enough to examine a proposed new member, but to come in here and make unfounded allegations and accusations was wrong. Now that Deputy Bruton is here, I would ask him if he has control of his own party. Deputy Bruton made quite a lot of play about controlling his own party yesterday. Does he stand over what was said here last night by Deputy Madeleine Taylor-Quinn?

Check the record.

Does Deputy Bruton stand over every word that she said. Is that the sort of leader Deputy Bruton is?

Yes, I do. I stand over it.

Does Deputy Bruton stand over the accusation that this State would be at risk and that there would be leaks? I listened to Deputy Taylor-Quinn last night. Will Deputy Bruton tell the House whether or not he stands over every word she said here and whether that is a correct way to treat a fellow Member of this House?

(Interruptions.)

Minister, while I am in the Chair there will not be interruptions from either side. I look for the Minister's co-operation on that. The Minister can address his question through me but there will be no interruptions.

I was just asking Deputy Bruton if he stands over every word said here last night by Deputies Taylor-Quinn and Michael Noonan and if he believes that that is the correct way in which to treat a fellow Member of this House? The vilification and character assassination cannot be substantiated at all.

It is an honour to be a Member of this House. There are certain privileges in the House. It is an abuse of privilege to say things here which cannot be substantiated and which are known to be untrue. Deputies should not come in here and say those things unless they are prepared to say them outside the House. A lot of things were said about Deputy McDaid yesterday which could not be said outside of this House.

Deputy Shatter misrepresented the Taoiseach and the Taoiseach was not here to defend himself. The Deputy then misrepresented Deputy Spring who contradicted him and pointed out how he was misrepresenting what Deputy Spring had said. Deputy Spring distanced himself from the behaviour of Fine Gael yesterday and that was appropriate because no one would want to associate himself with the manner in which the Fine Gael Party behaved yesterday.

Deputy Spring questioned the Taoiseach's judgment in appointing a Deputy from a Border county as Minister for Defence. There are precedents for this, as Deputy McGahon knows. Deputies Pádraig Faulkner and Paddy Donegan were both Ministers for Defence from Border constituencies. When talking about the principles that should apply to Deputy McDaid we should acknowledge that the same principles should apply to every other Member of the House, including the Taoiseach. I was disappointed this morning to hear Deputy Spring say that a different set of rules applied to the Taoiseach. The Taoiseach is equally entitled to fair play.

Deputy Bruton this morning referred to what he would do if he were in government. The Deputy talked about setting up a committee system. Because the Deputy is not in government and not in a position to turn the House upside down, the first thing he should do is consider how best the House could be used in the interests of the people. Since the Dáil resumed in October we have had nothing but hype, innuendo and unsubstantiated accusations against Members of the House. That does not do justice to Members of the House or to the people whom we were elected to represent. We are spending too much time with the Government defending themselves against totally unsubstantiated allegations of a personal nature. I have often said that I welcomed constructive criticism and constructive debate. Before the debate got as acrimonious as it did yesterday I said that one of my regrets during my time in the Department of Health was the lack of constructive debate in this House on health services. We all need to look at the health services and to have an in-depth discussion on them. That is not what we had over the last four years. I would have welcomed that. Certainly for the last six weeks there has been very little constructive debate from the Opposition side on policies.

Deputy McDaid is a very honourable man from a neighbouring Ulster county. The way he was vilified in here yesterday was a disgrace. I hope it is the last time we will see that from Members of the House. We are all here to do the best we can in representing the interests of the nation. It is important not to abuse the privileges of the House. Privileges were abused yesterday in the manner in which the debate progressed.

This morning, Deputy Bruton talked about Northern Ireland policy. If what Deputy Taylor-Quinn had to say last night is an indication of the type of justice that we can expect from the Fine Gael Party it will frighten the life out of both Nationalists and Unionists in the North. They would not want any part of it.

We have debated financial policy often enough in the House. The Government can be proud of their management of the finances over the last four years. I do not have to remind the House that in 1987 we were on the verge of financial ruin and that the Government which came in made the decision to take the necessary action to deal effectively with the financial chaos that had been left by the Fine Gael-Labour Government. The Taoiseach, more than anybody else in this House, was responsible for the economic miracle that occurred over the last four years in which our borrowing requirement was brought down from £2,100 million in 1986 to less than £400 million last year. That is an indication of the progress that was made. It is fair enough for Members opposite to be critical of all kinds of things but they should recognise the achievements, the economic stability, that has been brought about over the last four years. We have had reductions in income tax, reductions in bank interest rates and a reduction in inflation all in the same four-year period.

I listened to Deputy Bruton this morning speaking about the need to control spending. He referred to the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and to funding. One thing the Opposition and the nation can be sure of is that the Fianna Fáil Government will provide the money for public services and that there will be control of spending. That has been the pattern of government since 1987 and that will continue. There will be no free spending as there was from 1982 to 1987 when Fine Gael and Labour were in government.

It was interesting to hear Deputy Bruton speak about control of parties. He certainly has no control over his own party where finances are concerned. He himself says we must be prudent in our spending and not spend money here and there. However, day after day other Fine Gael Deputies come here recommending the spending of anything from £1 million to £10 million. As Minister for Health I saw them coming in, three different Deputies on three different nights, all spending money and free-wheeling. Fine Gael should get their act together and decide whether they would be a Government that would spend millions of pounds that are not there or a Government that would be prudent in the level of spending they would engage in when, if ever they get into government. I do not see any sign of that happening for the remainder of this decade.

Yesterday I dealt with some of the important achievements during my time in the Department of Health. I am now pleased to welcome the opportunity to serve in the Department of the Environment. It is a great honour for any Deputy to serve the people of Ireland as a Minister in government. It is a great honour for me to now move from the Department of Health to serve in another Department that makes a major impact on the provision of services to the public. I would see the Environment as being closely aligned to health. In fact, originally the Department of Health was part of the old Department of Local Government and public health. The Department of Health is a comparatively young Department having been established only in 1947.

When I was in medical practice I always saw myself as being involved at the delivery side in a very small area of health, a highly technical area of curing and prevention. I had, however, an interest in a much wider concept of health and saw the environment and the administration and management of the Department of the Environment as making a major contribution to health in this nation. It is fair to say that it was environmental services, particularly the provision of good clean water and sanitary services, that made the greatest contribution to health in this country as they did in other countries around the world. As a member of the medical profession I can say with authority that one achievement, the provision of sanitary services and clean water has been the one achievement that has best served the public health.

I am therefore particularly pleased to be going to the Department of the Environment. I would like to pay tribute to my colleague, Deputy Flynn, who was Minister in that Department for the tremendous work that he did over the four years and the new developments that he brought about. I look forward to continuing the work he was involved in and the developments he commenced.

Everybody recognises the increased amount of funding provided for roads and particularly the improvement of our national primary roads. We have had a five year programme of water and sewage improvement which has a big impact on the quality of water——

At Kinsealy.

The urban renewal schemes, including the development of the docks, is there as a monument to the achievements of this Government. There is the social housing plan which puts emphasis on people helping themselves. I look forward to seeing that plan implemented. There is the new planning Act which restricts compensation and a new Bill to cut appeals time.

The environment generally is very important and nations worldwide are very conscious and aware of its importance. Deputy Flynn, as Minister for the Environment, produced a comprehensive national programme which was published in 1990 and I look forward to the implementation of that programme.

I have already referred to the close links between the environment and health. Good clean drinking water, proper sewerage facilities, control of air pollution, chemicals and toxic substances, leisure and recreational facilities, good housing and safe roads are all vital. Deputies are aware that there are a number of Bills before the Dáil which we want to see implemented. They include the Environmental Protection Agency Bill, the Roads Bill, the Planning Bill, the Electoral Bill, the Control of Dogs Bill, the Housing Bill and the Road Traffic Bill. We are now looking at the question of a new programme for the next five years as the current one is coming to a conclusion. There is still work to be done. We must eliminate the remaining water quality problems, clean up inland sewage pollution and deal with coastal areas and the lack of facilities. We have to continue promotion and development of all the programmes. The Environmental Protection Agency will be established early next year and there must be active participation in work on global environmental issues.

Local government reform is another area that is on the agenda. I have already referred to the social housing plan. I want to see that fully achieved. The new Housing Bill deals with the need to tackle management and maintenance of local authority housing estates and the tenants' involvement in that.

I look forward to my term in the Department of the Environment, to working in the same way as I did in the Department of Health to ensure delivery at the very highest level of service to the public, and being in the Department of the Environment is a great opportunity for making a worthwhile contribution.

Finally, I would like to congratulate the new Ministers in Cabinet the Minister of State Deputy Vincent Brady, and Deputy Noel Davern. I have no doubt that they will make a very valuable contribution in Cabinet. I also want to congratulate my fellow Ministers who have moved to new Departments. Again I believe they will bring the same commitment to their new Departments as they brought to the Departments they are about to leave.

I would like to welcome Deputies Dermot Ahern, Michael Kitt and John O'Donoghue as Ministers of State. Everybody in this House recognises their ability and they will make a very valuable contribution to the work of government. There are important issues which we need to attend to. The House should have no fear; the Government will attend to them. They are committed to their work and dedicated to doing what needs to be done. We have a good Government and our Leader has proven himself over the years. I have already referred to his performance between 1987 to date. We will continue to give good Government and it would be of help if the Opposition came into the House to discuss policy, to tell us what their alternative policies are, to make constructive contributions to debates and to stop making innuendoes and personal attacks week in, week out.

Tá an t-am istigh.

Tá mé ag briseadh an ama atá agam leis an Teachta Durkan.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

We are debating today the appointment of two members to the Government. I would first like to congratulate Deputies Ahern, O'Donoghue and Kitt who have been nominated as Ministers of State. I know Deputies Ahern and O'Donoghue very well as I have worked with them on the British-Irish parliamentary body and I found them to be intelligent, hard working and committed members of that body. I am sure the same will apply to them when they begin work as Ministers of State. I would also like to congratulate Deputy Kitt. I have always found him to be courteous and a good Member of the House. I am sure he will be equally courteous and hard working in the Department he will eventually be allocated. Likewise, I congratulate Deputies Brady and Davern whose nominations we are debating today.

I would have thought that Deputy Davern would have made a good Minister for Defence and I will watch with interest his progress in one of the most testing Departments in the range of Cabinet portfolios, the Department of Education. I wish him well in what is an extremely difficult and demanding Department. I hope he will do well.

The other appointment announced yesterday was that of Deputy McDaid as Minister for Defence and that is the one I would like to comment on today, in particular on the controversy which surrounded it during the past 24 hours. I have no knowledge of Deputy McDaid. I have met him in the corridors of this House and I always found him to be a pleasant person. I sometimes thought that he was unhappy in this House and wished to be somewhere else. However, he appeared to get his opportunity yesterday to rise above that.

When somebody is offered a position in the Cabinet it is absolutely right that his background is examined to make sure that he would not be an embarrassment to the Leader of the Government, the Cabinet and the country. This is particularly true when we come to the sensitive posts of Minister for Justice and Minister for Defence who are members of the security committee. Therefore, we should be doubly concerned that there is no blemish which would make them unsuitable for either of those portfolios.

Deputy McDaid has said that he signed an affidavit on behalf of James Pius Clarke to the effect that he was in a certain place and could not have been present when certain things happened. He signed an affidavit on behalf of a person who is a proven member of the Provisional IRA, not just an ordinary foot soldier but a ranking officer. To put it at its most charitable, it was one thing for Deputy McDaid to sign the affidavit if he thought that this person was in one place but he went far beyond any obligation he may have had to a constituent, having signed the affidavit, when he supported him with his presence outside the court and allowed himself to be photographed among a group of protesters which contained many members of the Provisional IRA. At the least this showed naivety. For this reason alone Deputy McDaid did the right thing in withdrawing his name last night.

While blame must attach to him with regard to the company he keeps likewise blame attaches to the Government who put him in that position yesterday. Primarily, it attaches to the Taoiseach and the Leader of the Progressive Democrats, Deputy O'Malley. Deputy O'Malley must have known about this appointment before it came before the House yesterday morning. If any effort has been made to ascertain the background of either or both these men, through the press or other sources, they would have found out that it would be unwise and not in the interests of the country to make Deputy McDaid Minister for Defence. If any proof is needed, it is the impression created by this appointment and the outcry among the British media, in particular among men of the calibre of Mr. Ivor Stanbrook, MP. This shows, given the sensitive security situation which pertains, that there cannot be on the security committee of any Irish Government nor in any sensitive security post a man against whom these charges can be levelled.

I feel sorry for Deputy McDaid in relation to the position in which he finds himself but I have no sympathy for the men who put him in that position, the Taoiseach and Deputy O'Malley. They bear a serious responsibility to that man and this House. This morning in the House Deputy Spring said he wanted to dissociate himself from some of the charges levelled against Deputy McDaid but the Fine Gael Party were right to discharge their responsibility in this regard and examine his background. This is something Deputy O'Malley should have done. This is hard to take from Deputy Spring given that he has frequently attacked other people in this House who were not in a position to defend themselves. Deputy McDaid, however, as a Member of this House is in a position to defend himself. If we had not brought these matters to the fore yesterday, imagine the outcry there would have been if Deputy McDaid had been confirmed as the Minister for Defence last night and these matters came out in the press today. Where would the finger be pointed then? The answer is at these benches because we han not done our duty. Fine Gael did the right thing and Deputy Currie will reread into the record later on today precisely what Deputy Noonan and Deputy Taylor-Quinn said, not what is reported in the press or the charges laid against them.

Deputy O'Hanlon said this morning that a man's character had been vilified from these benches yesterday but was he not present for the two-day confidence debate when every single backbencher of the Fianna Fáil Party led by the Minister for Justice — none of whom is present in the House; it is their job to keep the House and I would call a quorum except that I would use up my own time — made venomous and vituperative comments across the Floor of the House? They then come into the House to accuse us of vilifying a Member who was a candidate for one of the most important and sensitive position in this country. They should be ashamed of themselves, as should Deputy O'Malley and the Progressive Democrats.

It is time the Government left office. Deputy O'Malley is being arrogant when he says there would be chaos if we had a general election. That is rubbish. What do we have now and what have we had for the past three months, apart from chaos? Their idea that only the two parties opposite are capable of forming a Government should be tested in the public arena. They seem to think the political play is interred in the Fianna Fáil Party or in a combination of the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats. Let them test that at the hustings. Let them go before the public and let us have a general election.

The Progressive Democrats are continually examining their consciences, they are embarrassed, they have to object to certain matters, and are concerned about what is happening in Government. If that is how they feel their performance in Government should be adjudicated on by the electorate. In the meantime we want to see some Cabinet responsibility and not a performance similar to the one which took place earlier this week when the Minister for Energy, Deputy Molloy, said that the Government were going to take a decision to fire three Ministers of State and that his party that were not going to participate in that decision. I do not want hypocritical lectures from Deputy O'Malley or Deputy Molloy about what goes on in this House. They accepted their seals of office from the President two and a half years ago on the basis that there would be collective responsibility. Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, Deputy Noel Treacy and Deputy Smith will all be fired from their positions today by Deputy O'Malley and Deputy Molloy in he same way as they will be fired by the other 13 members of Government.

May I make a point?

No, you may not, I have a limited amount of time.

In the interests of fair play——

Níl cead agat cur isteach.

Deputy Barry is not correct.

Deputy Molloy will have an opportunity to speak.

I am surprised at Deputy Barry.

There is a necessity for the Government to test their support in the country because my assessment is that they do not have any. The Fianna Fáil Party have torn themselves asunder over the leadership of Deputy O'Malley, the Taoiseach——

That is a Freudian slip.

Will Deputy Barry support that motion?

It is quite interesting that I made that remark because I was not conscious of saying it. I am repeating what Fianna Fáil Deputies said to me in the corridors of this House last night, that the Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey, has lost control of his party and Government. The tail is wagging the dog. Over the last three weeks we have witnessed the way in which Deputy Reynolds and Deputy Flynn were got rid of, the proposed firing of three junior Ministers and the 14-hour meeting to decide whether the Taoiseach should lead the party. Half the Deputies who voted for Deputy Haughey voted from ambition because they thought they might get one of the five vacant posts and the other half voted from fear because they did not know if they would regain their seats if they had to go before the electorate in the near future.

For the last three months the Progressive Democrats have been complaining about the series of scandals in which they feel members of the Government have been involved, yet they did not withdraw from Government and allow a general election to take place. The people did not vote for this Government. I do not wish to make a big point of the fact that a coalition was formed after the election although the Progressive Democrats did not say that they would go into coalition with Fianna Fáil, nor did Fianna Fáil say that they would go into coalition with the Progressive Democrats. Another of their core values has gone. In fairness, people were relieved that a Government was formed and they have been reasonably satisfied with what has happened for the last two years. However, they are not satisfied with what has been happening for the last three months; they are not satisfied with the series of scandals which have rocked the Government in that time starting with Telecom, Celtic Helicopters, Greencore, the Kinsealy pipeline, the ESB windmill on Inishvickillane and a number of other things. The people would like to pass judgment on these matters.

I do not want to interrupt but can we be certain there are two parties in government?

Deputy Rabbitte has broken my train of thought. A series of scandals has rocked the Government for the last three months and the public generally see the Progressive Democrats as being part of the Government which are affected by these scandals. We are told that the Progressive Democrats are a policy-driven party but they are much more policy-driven in relation to retaining their position in Government than they are in producing policies for the benefit of the country. If they were sincere about their concerns for the future and for democracy — democracy has taken a terrible hammering in the last three months — they would bring about the downfall of the Government and bring about a general election. I do not say that in a partisan fashion although I am sure that the Ministers, Deputies O'Malley and Molloy, will say that although Fine Gael are calling for an election they privately want to keep the Government in place. The result of the election is not important. It does not matter whether Fine Gael get 70 of 40 seats or whether the Progressive Democrats are wiped out, the fact is that democracy has been undermined and the only people who can restore faith in the institutions of the State in this House and the Government they choose to elect — no matter what its composition — is the electorate. They should be given that opportunity.

I wish to deal briefly with some of the matters raised in yesterday's debate and again this morning. I should like to deal first with what Deputy Barry described — I believe I quote him accurately — as "the appointment by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Industry and Commerce of Ministers in the Government". I want to make it quite clear that there are not joint Taoisigh; I am well aware of the constitutional position of the Taoiseach, and whatever the difficulties over the last two and a quarter years I have sought assiduously to respect that constitutional position. I have done so at times at great cost to myself and my party because, in respecting the provisions of the Constitution, we have laid ourselves open to all kinds of criticism and abuse, principally from the Fine Gael Party, who are horribly jealous of the situation in which the Progressive Democrats have been in the last two and a quarter years. They criticise my party, whichever way they go; it is perfectly evident that, as far as they are concerned, we are never allowed to win if they can help it.

I will refer to a conversation I had with the Taoiseach on these matters. In the normal way I would never make a reference in this House — or anywhere else — to a conversation I had with the Taoiseach about Government matters, particularly fundamental matters. However, in the circumstances of all the various allegations being thrown about here I should make the minimum necessary reference to what happened. At 6.15 p.m. on Tuesday of this week I went to see the Taoiseach to discuss two matters with him. The first related to one pertaining to my Department where a number of complications and difficulties had arisen. I thought it appropriate to brief the Taoiseach in regard to them. That took longer than I anticipated; it took about half an hour.

At about 6.45 p.m. we changed the topic to the question of the appointment of Ministers and Ministers of State. In no sense was I consulted and in no sense did I seek to be consulted, as I do not have a right under the Constitution or under law to consultation. I believe I have a right to be informed, and I was informed of the two names, Deputy McDaid and Deputy Davern. I made no comment on either of them except — and I say this in passing — to express surprise that the new Ministers had come from the backbenches rather than from among the Ministers of State, which is what I would have anticipated. Apart from that I had no discussion whatever on the individuals concerned.

I want to make it clear that I was not aware — and I think the vast majority of Members of this House were not aware — that Deputy McDaid had had a public association with a man called James Pius Clarke who is apparently a member of the Provisional IRA. It is not a question that I forgot; I was never so aware. I do not know Deputy McDaid very well. He was very recently elected to this House and I met him only briefly on a small number of occasions. All I knew about Deputy McDaid was that he was a doctor in Letterkenny, County Donegal, and that he was very recently elected to the Dáil. In any brief meetings I had with him he certainly struck me as a decent, honest and honourable man, and I had no reason to question him.

When I discovered in this House from Deputy Michael Noonan that there was evidence rather than just a vague allegation, as had been made earlier, of the association of Deputy McDaid with James Pius Clarke, I went up to my office and asked an official to get me the newspaper cuttings for the date in question — Wednesday, 14 March — in which there was considerable reportage of the case on the previous day and the demonstration outside the Four Courts. I have read all of those reports — they are very extensive — and Deputy McDaid was not once mentioned in them. Nor is he identified in any of the photographs, although with hindsight if you examine one of the photographs carefully you can see Deputy McDaid in it, but if you were not looking for him I do not think you would have noticed it at the time. Therefore there is no question that I forgot about Deputy McDaid's associations with this man; I never knew about them.

I am asked here apparently to act as a joint Taoiseach, to take joint responsibility for appointments which the Constitution says can only be made on the nomination of the Taoiseach. I am also expected to act as a censor of everybody in this House who might be nominated or proposed to hold office either in the Cabinet or elsewhere. I reject that task being thrust upon me; I reject that office being put on me. I do not have it and I do not have that responsibility.

We are debating now the nomination of Deputies Brady and Davern for appointment at 5 p.m. this evening. I propose to vote for them and I commend their appointment to the House, but listening to the speeches this morning I am expected by some Members of this House, to have satisfied myself through the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána or the head of the Special Branch about the propriety of the appointment of these two Deputies. I say to the House now that I have not done that, I do not intend to do so and I will not do it. I know both men for quite a long time, especially Deputy Davern who came into this House not long after I did, and I know of nothing in terms of a criminal record, subversive associations or anything else that renders them unfit. If I am expected to make inquiries, as was specifically suggested to me today, through the Garda Síochána, to get a security clearance and to do so independently of the Taoiseach, because I am supposed to act as a joint Taoiseach in this country, how much further will these Deputies go in requiring me to act as the gratuitously appointed national censor? Am I supposed to inquire, for example, into the sexual orientation of members of the Government lest they be a security risk if they are not of an orthodox kind? How far am I supposed to go?

There are no worries in this particular respect. I think everything is straight in this House.

It is a little unreasonable and I reject this task being put on me. I want to advise the House that I will be voting, and am asking the House to vote today without having got a security clearance on Deputies Brady and Davern, which I think frankly would be insulting and I have no intention of doing so.

I want to make it absolutely clear that the first concrete news or evidence I had of the public association between the Deputy and the man in question was when Deputy Noonan provided evidence here yesterday afternoon. Obviously I was not alone in that because Deputy Bruton did not once refer any more than I did, to Deputy McDaid in his speech either. Deputy Spring referred to him but only in passing, to congratulate him on his proposed appointment and to wish him well. He made no criticism of him, nor did most other speakers until suddenly Deputy De Rossa and Deputy O'Keeffe began to query his associations. I understand that Deputy McDaid denied any impropriety.

Having made my speech — and I am criticised for not having criticised Deputy McDaid in it but I had no grounds to criticise him because I knew of no evidence on which I could do so — I returned to my office to work on departmental business, including parliamentary questions for today. After hearing Deputy Bruton and Deputy Spring in the morning I worked on my speech for the afternoon. They gave me no grounds to criticise Deputy McDaid. I did not listen to the Dáil monitor because I was working and nobody brought the original allegations to my attention because there was no evidence and there was really no need for it.

Immediately after I left the Dáil Chamber I consulted officials in my Department as well as party officials and I got the relevant press cuttings. As I have said, even though they are voluminous — I have them here — there is not one word in them about Deputy McDaid. I got a barrister member of my party to check the Irish Law Times Report in which the Clarke and Finucane cases are reported officially, but there is no reference in that report to Deputy McDaid. I then had informal contact with some of my parliamentary party colleagues, including the Minister for Energy, and I had a meeting with the Taoiseach, where I said that having looked at what is now evidence rather than listened to allegations, I obviously had some concerns and I explained to the Taoiseach what they were. He suggested that I might like to meet Deputy McDaid and I said I would because I did not want to put myself in the position of acting as a judge and jury over somebody whom I had not heard and particularly somebody whom I did not really know at all.

Deputy McDaid came to my office shortly afterwards and a 15 minute conversation ensued between the Minister for Energy, Deputy McDaid and myself. It was not an interrogation; it was, as you can imagine, a sad scene where we discussed aspects of the matter with Deputy McDaid and pointed out to him that there were difficulties.

I would like to say, Sir, that I am utterly satisfied, having had that conservation last evening with Deputy McDaid, that the man is totally honourable and honest in every way. I sincerely believe he is in no way supportive of the Provisional IRA or any other violent organisation, but I believe — and I had to say this to him, and he began to realise it perhaps for the first time — that he had compromised himself, unfortunately. Deputy Molloy, who is a former Minister for Defence, pointed out that if, for example a photograph appeared in the newspaper of some young man beside a convicted member of the Provisional IRA, and that young man were to go along and try to enlist in the Army as a private, the Army would have to turn him down. In fact the Army would turn him down without question because they cannot take any kind of risk at all. I think that made an impression on Deputy McDaid and I do not think he had realised or seen things in that way. I was very moved at that meeting by his description of his four years as a casualty officer in Letterkenny General Hospital when he saw, perhaps more closely than any of us do, the results of the work of the IRA, their sympathisers and their political front.

I am absolutely satisfied that Deputy McDaid is a most honourable man. I think there is just one episode where due to inexperience, innocence, naivety, or whatever one would call it, he did something which unfortunately clearly disqualifies him from holding that particular office. I had discussions with my colleagues, obviously we were terribly unhappy about the whole thing but shortly before 9 o'clock I heard that Deputy McDaid was going to ask the Taoiseach to withdraw his nomination. I was in the House to hear Deputy McDaid. He acted very honourably and I think he genuinely acted in the national interest.

What I really deplore is the way he was pilloried yesterday. It was legitimate for Members of this House to get up and draw attention to his public associations, but what was not legitimate was to describe him as a fellow traveller of the Provisional IRA and as someone who would leak information to Provos. That is not legitimate.

The Deputy should read the Official Report.

He is not that kind of a man. I heard the venom with which he was attacked yesterday and I found it regrettable and deplorable because it was unfair. It should be possible to get up and, as I believe I am doing now, make the point that through circumstances of innocence, naivety or goodwill towards an individual constituent he compromised himself in a certain respect, but beyond that one cannot go. After the meeting I had last night with Deputy McDaid, I cannot and I do not believe anyone ever could accuse him of being dishonourable, disreputable or any such thing. I think he was put in an awful position last night and I am accused of having put him there.

I did not know that he had any association with this man, James Pius Clarke. It is not that I forgot, I never knew and even if I had read every line of those newspapers, his name was never mentioned and there is no association with him shown on the public record. I understand that the first time he was so associated in any way was on a "Today Tonight" programme, shown some time later. I did not see that programme I am afraid and therefore it did not impinge on me in any way.

The Army and the Garda are doing an extraordinarily important task for this country. They have to maintain incredibly high standards, even for people who hold as low a rank as an ordinary private in the Army. Therefore, this House has to be very conscious of who will be the political head of the Defence Forces. Even if a man is as decent, honourable and upright as I know Deputy McDaid to be, there are circumstances in which decent, honourable men cannot take a particular office or offices. Unfortunately through innocence I suppose on his part, Deputy McDaid found himself in that situation.

While these things were happening in this House last night four people died in Belfast because the Provisional IRA decided to murder them on no better grounds than that they were apparently Protestants. They tried to murder a lot more than four, they nearly murdered three children as well, and one of those children is very seriously injured. We have to be absolutely adamant in our opposition to those people and there cannot be even the slightest potential sign of ambivalence in regard to them and that is why it was necessary for Deputy McDaid in the national interest to stand aside last night, even though I am convinced he is an innocent man in every way.

The Opposition did its job.

I am convinced of it. I salute him for having done it. It is not easy for this party in Government but I have had plenty of opportunity over two-and-a-quarter years to reflect. It is not easy but I believe and I say it without any taint, I hope, of arrogance that I can identify what the national need is and what our national duty is, and even if we continue to be showered with criticism and if I continue to be attacked on the basis that I allegedly hold the office of Taoiseach, even though I have none of the powers of it, and I have to put up with that, I will do it for as long as I see that our duty lies in that respect.

I ask people to reflect on the fact that the national interest is what counts and we should get on with that. All of us in this House saw last night a splendid example of putting the national interest first when Deputy McDaid stood up and said what he had to say in the way in which he said it. I salute him and I ask that his noble example might be followed a bit more widely in this House.

Acting Chairman

I now call Deputy Michael D. Higgins.

On a point of order, Sir——

A Chathaoirligh——

On a point of order——

Acting Chairman

Will the Deputy please resume his seat? The debate is being followed according to procedure, there is no point of order.

I do not want to impinge on the Deputy's time in any way but I wish to make a brief point of order. In the light of Deputy O'Malley's speech, perhaps Deputy O'Malley would agree that it was inappropriate for the Taoiseach to refer to James Pius Clarke as an innocent man.

Acting Chairman

That is not a point of order and the debate will proceed according to the procedure.

The nomination of members of the Cabinet provides us with an opportunity of reflecting on the performance of previous incumbents in the different positions and also to consider the challenges facing the Oireachtas. With your permission, Sir, I would like to share my time with Deputy Ferris.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Might I begin with a point addressed by Deputy O'Malley, on which there is a great deal of confusion emerging? I can say with certainty, and with as much certainty as Deputy Spring, and he speaks for me, that I also accept Deputy Jim McDaid's statement and his condemnation of the IRA campaign of murder and terrorism. It is also very important that I and every Deputy in this House assert a fundamental principle that I feel necessary to have asserted now, having listened to the debate this morning: that is that in respect of any citizen irrespective of their past, irrespective of anything they might have been accused of or even convicted of or have served in prison, no Deputy has forfeited her or his rights to speak for such a person should that person be abused before the law in the legal process. If such a person came to my clinic I would be interested in the issue that she or he placed before me and in the principles of the case as stated.

How far can be taken the suggestion that a person sacrifices the right to seek representation or that an elected public representative forfeits the rights of representation on the basis of alleged guilt by association? This has been one of the most fundamental and consistent assaults on the principle of civil and human rights internationally. A person may at one time in his or her life be guilty of something. Consider, for example, the people who were involved in the last days of Richard Nixon who, I am led to believe, had miraculous conversions to Jesus while they were in prison. It is a lurid example, but if somebody who has been convicted in the past appeared in a Deputy's clinic should that Deputy ask about that person's past, which might forfeit his or her right to representation on a particular issue?

I remember when the issue of James Pius Clarke arose. What Members of the House, and members of local authorities were approached on was a fundamental and simple issue: was the process perfect by which extradition would take place, was it a clear charge and did conditions exist in which he could acquire certainty in both the charge and the process? We were not asked to judge anything else, and on that issue the courts decided. I did not rise to speak in defence of any Deputy, but I accept the statement made to the House by Deputy McDaid and I welcome it. I also believe that if indiscretion is that of which he was guilty, it is only that, and I absolutely abhor the suggestion that somebody on a scintilla of indiscretion would have alleged in his regard because he allowed himself to come between the camera focus of other people that he shares the values of those other people. That is not only a nonsense, it is a dangerous slur on the character of a Deputy. What took place in the House in the sense of building on that association the allegation that a person was a tacit Provo, a sympathiser or that because of this the person was somehow or other a security risk was — and this was done by someone whom I respect — a lurid, sensational, irresponsible and damaging extension beyond all evidence for the sake of petty opportunistic advantage. It is sad when a person's career is affected in the way it has been in this instance.

The Leader of the Labour Party has spoken about the extraordinary judgments being made by the Taoiseach, Deputy Haughey. Certainly I would have been more interested if he had nominated Deputy McDaid for the ministry of Health, where his views — which he might have developed in Cabinet — on the availability of contraceptives, on divorce and on changing the laws on criminalisation of acts of people of a certain sexual orientation would have been very valuable. It would have been very interesting to know that such views were being floated in Cabinet.

It would have been a better decision to nominate Deputy McDaid for some other portfolio. However, with respect to Deputy Shatter who made this point, the Leader of the Labour Party spoke for me and for every member of the Labour Party when he said that we are in the House to provide opposition but that we do not substitute for that responsibility by the kind of behaviour witnessed here last evening. I reiterate that because it is a very important fundamental principle. I am surprised from where that came last evening. There is an issue of jurisprudence involved. Does the recidivist have rights? Equally, can one speak to somebody about a particular issue without taking on the generality of issues? What, then, if one goes on and extends all of that and hands from this privileged Chamber to Unionists and irresponsible right-wing backbenchers in Britain ammunition to damage the national interest? Who, in the end, has helped the situation in Northern Ireland?

I am appalled, as everybody is, by the dreadful murders that took place last night. I accept that the condemnations of that violence that came from the person nominated were genuine. It is very important that we respect this issue of law. I have heard of that. I served on the McBride Commission on prisons. I had prisoners come to me and say that after they had served time in prison they were still subjected to vigilance. Those people attended my clinic. By speaking to them receiving them and advising them of their rights, was I guilty? What kind of society would it be that allowed government by innuendo or guilt by innuendo and association?

What we are here to do today, however, is reflect on the appropriate composition of Cabinet. There is a massive question mark over the judgment of Deputy Haughey and there is an even deeper question about practically every area of Cabinet responsibility.

Only this week Deputy Haughey in the House made the shameful suggestion that a slowing up in the rate of emigration was responsible for the rise in unemployment figures. On every occasion on which I have spoken on the economy I have warned that there could be economic growth without getting investment or job creation. I have warned against ministerial speeches that stated that the impact of the Government's policies would be to create a climate for investment and that from that climate of lower interest rates, controlled inflation and so forth would inevitably come jobs. That is described even today by the Taoiseach as economic stability. It is the stability of drift, the stability of an economic disaster. It is something that says nothing about the investment crisis in the economy.

Earlier this week we had a refusal to extend the studies that might have identified the implications of the expanded black economy and of the leaks in the economy of perhaps 12 per cent of gross domestic product. Where is there anything of serious economic thinking in this country while 260,000 and more are unemployed?

We had the Minister for Health appealing for responsibility. We make ourselves the laughing-stock of the world when, for example, trying to tackle something so humanly important as the AIDS problem, we are doing it in Ireland without the use of condoms. Perhaps the Minister Deputy O'Hanlon, in a fit of sympathy, should talk to Deputy McDaid on that issue now.

A new Minister for Education takes over. All over the country people are asking what that Minister will do to improve access to education, to change the curriculum or to develop co-education. What will that Minister do for changing the balance of democracy within education and issues of control? I have not heard Deputy Davern apply himself to the Church/State connection in education, on the relevant curriculum, on co-education or on sexism in schoolbooks, but I have a good idea of what his earthy views might be on those matters.

In relation to foreign affairs this House reels towards Maastricht, which has about as much relevance to the public as mastitis, because of the way it has not been explained. People say: "Maastricht, what is it?" Unique among the parliaments of Europe, there are no position papers, no profiles of the framework of issues to be decided, a debate coming too late and then there will be statements after the event. In industry and commerce it is very important. In all of the ministries there is a little sleight of hand going on now. There is a certain kind of politics associated with the leadership of Fianna Fáil and Deputy Haughey, An Taoiseach. They have been associated in this country with a culture of speculation rather than a culture of production. They speak openly of that within the business world. The fact is that the Taoiseach's nominees are irrelevant to this debate. It is the man making the nominations who is relevant and it is time for the Taoiseach to go. He could have gone with grace, even with a sense of élan at the end of the great hubris he felt during our Presidency of the EC; he decided not to do that.

This is not merely an issue for Fianna Fáil. The public are anxious to hear policies on the economy, on emigration, on poverty, health and education. They are anxious to see us do our work preparing for the European Summit in Maastricht. They are anxious for us to have a foreign affairs committee. Let us not say that these scandals should not be raised. If there is impropriety on the part of those who wanted to get rich by speculating rather than by producing anything, least of all jobs, that should be raised here and raised every day if necessary.

Hear, hear.

We damage politics, and there is talk in Europe of a democratic deficit. The idea of scandals of the scale we have seen that could not be touched by parliamentary accountability would be a killer blow to democracy itself. This is not a political crisis. The impropriety lies with those who did it; most importantly, where it touches this Parliament, are those who provided a political culture where shortcuts could be taken.

There are so many other issues to which I might refer but I want to share my time. We have seen in the last Cabinet, as the Minister for the Environment left, a retreat from public housing, and cuts in the health service. The public are now reeling, asking if we are stuck in some kind of mist from which there is no escape? The outgoing Cabinet presides uniquely over a kind of fatalism that there is nothing that can be done any more except to drift along and have these kind of wrangles in this House.

Let us have an election soon. Fine Gael called for one. But let not any party of the Right think they can go to the public and lay down conditions saying, "We will go in with others if we have this". We on these benches, the left in this Dáil — and I ask the public to reflect very carefully on it — have the capacity now, in the immediate future to be a growing and responsible Opposition. That will be our road. We will not sink to destruction after the event as somebody who already knows he is leaving did last evening. We will address the issues in our economy and society. We will direct our opposition to the person who is presiding over the politics of drift and failure, the Taoiseach, Deputy Charles J. Haughey.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Ferris has five minutes.

It was interesting to hear the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Leader of the Progressive Democrats, put the record straight. It is an uninteresting record when it is true. Probably it is better that we have the true, uninteresting record rather than be subjected to the glamour of all the innuendoes of what might or might not have taken place between the Leader of the Progressive Democrats and the Taoiseach.

This morning the Leader of my party touched the sensitive nerve of the country, the sense of justice felt by the public, when they undertake a critical analysis of what their public representatives are doing. This morning he touched that very sensitive nerve in being truthful in what he had to say, about what was said from the Fine Gael benches or by Deputy McDaid himself.

For the record, I might quote what Deputy Spring said this morning because he was criticised by Deputies Shatter and Barry. He had this to say:

Remarks that described that Member, Deputy McDaid, as a fellow traveller and that implied that he would give away secrets to the Provos if he were appointed to Cabinet were unworthy of the people who made them.

He also said:

We all have to be very careful about the inferences we draw about the character and honour of the people we are criticising. To draw attention to the involvement of Deputy McDaid in the James Pius Clarke case was legitimate and perhaps necessary; to question him closely and give him the opportunity to reply was desirable.

That is what Deputy Spring said this morning. It was appropriate, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce admitted it was appropriate, to raise that issue because, at worst, possibly it was an indiscretion. But to raise all sorts of other innuendoes about the quality of Cabinet, the leaking of secrets to the Provos, can destabilise any democracy. That is the sensitive nerve Deputy Spring touched this morning.

I am more concerned about the quality of the Ministers nominated. I also welcome the fact that one of the Ministers represents my constituency. I welcome the fact that it is the first time any Government have recognised South Tipperary as being deserving of a Minister.

I have today called publicly on the Minister-elect, Deputy Noel Davern, to deliver on and rectify problems in our constituency, in the areas of unemployment, housing and education, the latter being his special responsibility. I have called on him also to examine and address the crisis of health funding in our constituency; the crisis of staffing in hospitals in Clonmel, the town he represents, the crisis of staffing in hospitals in Cashel where he, his late father and brother originated. These are the real political problems confronting the Minister-elect. I will be using my office as elected representative for the area to ensure that he performs and delivers in those areas, for example, that he delivers on the new school to Cashel. These might be regarded as parochial-constituency problems but they are real political issues in the area. I will expect the Minister elect to answer for them and he will have a forum within which he can do so.

I will not allow this other debate to distract our attention from the real political problems confronting us nationwide. The accusations about standards, originated two weeks ago from the Taoiseach, the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Social Welfare, when some things they attributed to colleagues on my left were not worthy of Government Ministers, things which they had to refute.

There is no credit to be gained by any of us complaining about criticism. Deputy Spring was criticised by the Government Press Secretary; there was nothing in that criticism but he had to take it as an accusation. Accusations will come and go but people's characters should never be assassinated by anybody on any side of the House whether in Government or Opposition.

I do not want to be political but I want to pay tribute to the stand the Labour Party have been taking and particularly to the sentiments expressed by Deputy Michael D. Higgins in the past few moments. I admire many of those sentiments he expressed. The stand taken and views expressed by the Labour Party on this issue are principled. They have not taken the easy course always open to Oppositions — I am sure we did it in our own day in Opposition — that is, fall for the opportunity to jump on the bandwagon which might embarrass the Government of the day. It is important to say that without any strings attached.

The Dáil is being asked today to support the appointment to the Cabinet of Deputies Vincent Brady and Noel Davern Deputy Vincent Brady is a very suitable candidate for the post of Minister for Defence. I have no reason to believe that he will not perform his duties with considerable distinction. He has been a member of this House since 1977. He has considerable experience as a member on the Committee on Public Accounts, serving his party in many capacities. He has been an alderman of Dublin Corporation and a very effective Government Chief Whip. Most importantly and appropriately at this time, Deputy Vincent Brady has been serving as Minister of State in the Department of Defence for a number of years. His knowledge of the Army is admirable and he has their respect. He also holds the Army in very high esteem. Deputy Vincent Brady is a very suitable choice as Minister for Defence because of his substantial experience.

Deputy Noel Davern is also a suitable choice as Minister for Education. He is a popular Deputy who first came into this House some 22 years ago. His family before him served the country. I and other Deputies recall his brother Don, who died in office while serving the State as a junior Minister in the Department of Agriculture. The family have served Ireland well and Deputy Davern as Minsiter for Education will carry on that tradition. I heard some people say in the corridors that Deputy Davern has no experience in education and they asked how he could be a good Minister in that Department. I freely admit that I knew nothing about transport until two years ago when I became Minister for Transport.

The Minister had got on a bus in his time.

Tempting fate.

I do not expect the other side of the House to agree but many of my constituents feel that I have handled that portfolio effectively. I knew very little about broadcasting except from the other end of the camera. I am grappling with that complex area now and I think I can say that my lack of experience in the broadcasting sector leaves me entirely free to approach some of these complex issues openly and honestly.

It is the Deputy's humility which is most striking.

I do not subscribe to the notion that one must have experience in a particular area to be a good Minister. I became a Cabinet Minister without previous experience of any kind of ministerial office. Many of the people opposite will probably make good Ministers in their time, without previous ministerial experience. Deputy Davern has the general political experience of 22 years or more in public life. He spent five years in the European Parliament. Given the Government's increasing involvement in the European scene, that is very valuable experience to bring to the Cabinet. I wish Deputy Davern and Deputy Brady every success in their new roles.

Yesterday was a very sad day in this House. I do not think anybody took any great pleasure in what happened. I pay tribute to Deputy James McDaid and I abhor any stain on his character. I know Deputy McDaid personally from our time together at UCG. Deputy Rabitte and Deputy Michael Higgins will also recall him as a student since we were all at UCG around the same time, as was Deputy McDaid's wife, Marguerite. I remember him as a very solid student who had the respect and admiration of his fellows. I lost track of him over the years but I understand he went on to become a top class medical practitioner in his native Donegal. He has been an excellent representative of Donegal North-East since 1989. He has shown great courage and determination on a number of issues and has not been afraid to express his views at the appropriate time. He has shown genuine concern about social issues and he has a social agenda. He is concerned too about economic development not only in his native county of Donegal but in the whole country. It is really a pity that what should have been a day of happiness for an honourable man turned into a day on which he was politically assassinated without any trial, without any right of reply before such execution was carried out. The people who carried out that execution can think it out for themselves. They should not be proud of their work.

It is a matter of belief. I believe Deputy McDaid when he says that at no time did he take part in any kind of demonstration against extradition. If he says that as a Member of this House I believe him. I believe him when he says that Donegal County Council, including the Fine Gael Party, Independents and The Workers' Party, passed a motion opposing that extradition and that the motion was also supported by a Fine Gael Deputy, a Member of this House. That is where the serious charges came from last evening, by and large. I also believe Deputy McDaid when he says that he is totally opposed to the IRA, as is everybody in this House, that he despises them for their murderous campaigns which have brought such heartbreak to thousands of our fellow Irishmen. I was very touched when he made the point that as a medical practitioner he has seen at first hand in hospitals the result of that murderous campaign. I believe him when he puts forward his clear account of the Clarke events which amount to no more than was reflected by Donegal County Council, with all the different parties involved, and by the Supreme Court. Maybe I am being too simplistic; I do not think so. I have thought about it carefully since the events of yesterday.

Deputy McDaid was against the extradition of Mr. Clarke, as was the Supreme Court. If Deputy McDaid is guilty of opposing that extradition and showing his opposition to it, so the Supreme Court is guilty also. The Supreme Court is not guilty and therefore neither is Deputy James McDaid. Maybe one should not boil it down to that simplistic analysis but having looked at it very carefully, this is what I must do. Our Supreme Court were opposed to that extradition so was Deputy McDaid.

It is legitimate for the Opposition — indeed it is their duty — to raise these kinds of questions, but they should have waited for Deputy McDaid's explanation, which has been accepted by a large number of people. From reports already in my constituency and from around the country this morning I am convinced that the people believe Deputy McDaid. I call on Deputy Paddy Harte and Deputy Dinny McGinley, two honourable men who share the county of Donegal with Deputy McDaid, to speak up and not to do the political thing of staying quiet. They should speak up for Deputy McDaid. Both of them know that he abhors violence and the IRA as much as they do. They know a grave injustice has been done to him by members of their party. They know the people of County Donegal and Deputy McDaid. I ask both of them not to let the day pass without dissociating themselves from the outrageous "fellow traveller" charges which came particularly from Deputy Noonan. If Deputy Harte and Deputy McGinley speak up now I believe the people of Donegal and the people of Ireland generally will thank them. They know that Deputy McDaid is entirely innocent of the charges levelled against him by some members of their party. I ask them to avail of the opportunity today to tell the country what they know about Deputy McDaid, that he is an honourable man. Like me I am sure the people of County Donegal would like to hear them say this.

I have been a Member of this Chamber for ten years. I have to confess that like all Members I am learning all the time. Sometimes I am not entirely consistent in what I do. I may do things differently now from the way I would have done them nine or ten years ago. I am developing my views all the time and I do not get locked into the history of previous utterances.

I am privileged to have served as general secretary of my party, to have been a Member of Seanad Éireann and a Minister of State before I joined the Cabinet. The one lesson I have learned the hard way — we should all give a lot of thought to this — is the barrenness, futility, unfairness and sheer hopelessness of engaging in personality politics. This country needs policies, not personalities. We should get back to debating policies and leave behind us some of the political cannibalism of personality assaults which have bedevilled this great Parliament for so many months. Policies affect the lives of real people and are always needed while personalities are only transient, they come and go. It is time we again started realising that that is what Parliament is about and stopped squabbling about who should have a State car for a transient period. We should all consider what we do when we are honoured to hold office. If we do not stop the haemorrhaging of confidence in our democratic institutions which is taking place by returning to policies and rejecting the personality approach I honestly believe that in years to come all Members of this House will regret it and wish they had pulled this democratic institution back from the brink it is on.

We are facing very real and daunting challenges. These are crying out for the undivided attention of the Government. We have to implement the Programme for Government which covers every Department of State and charts a clear road forward on economic, social and political matters. We have to review the Programme for Economic and Social Progress which is a complex job. The negotiations with our social partners call for skill and the undivided attention of the Government. We also have to bring in a budget. The Minister for Finance designate, Deputy Bertie Ahern, is ideally suited for the complex task which falls on his shoulders. The experience he gained during the negotiations on the Programme for National Recovery and the Programme for Economic and Social Progress and other economic issues has equipped him well for this task. He has also, in conjunction with the rest of the Cabinet, to complete the estimates which are urgently needed. Every Department of State have plans on how to develop the economy. I have a number of proposals in the broadcasting, transport and tourism areas which I desperately want to proceed with and leave aside some of the distractions of recent weeks.

There has been much talk around this House for many weeks about resignations and the need for people to step aside. Deputy McDaid stood aside yesterday evening amid much unwarranted personal abuse and assault. Having thought about this issue coolly — this is not language which normally sits well with me; I try to avoid these personality issues if I can — I want to pose a question: "Is it not Deputy Noonan and Deputy Taylor-Quinn who made these hotheaded outbursts yesterday who should consider resigning today?"

I should like to share my time with my colleague, Deputy Gay Mitchell.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

As one who has never indulged in personality politics I will only comment briefly on the subject matter of the motion before us and yesterday's discussion in the House. Like many Members on this side of the House, I only meet Deputy McDaid in the corridor. I have always found him to be courteous. I do not believe personal animosity should ever get the better of any of us in this House. As the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications said, it is the duty of the Opposition parties to outline the reasons why they believe a person should not be appointed to a particular portfolio. It is also our duty to point out any difficulties which exist.

I accept from what the speakers opposite have said that Deputy McDaid would have made an excellent Minister in any portfolio. However, as the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, said unfortunately circumstances exist — I am not paraphrasing the Minister — which could become the focus of attention at a later stage of people outside this House, and perhaps outside the State, and, through no fault of his, Deputy McDaid's appointment to that portfolio could become a problem.

I do not want to rehash what has been said this morning and yesterday. Like the Minister Deputy Brennan I have been a Member of this House for ten years. Unfortunately, personal politics has become the order of the day both inside and outside this House. Once we go down this road it naturally follows that everybody falls a victim to it at some stage. I am sure that like me many Members of this House have been both inside and outside the House. This is probably not in the interests of this House or ensuring public confidence in our ability to do the job we were elected to do. Having said that, I have to accept the explanation given by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, on this issue: if attention is drawn at some time in the future to circumstances which were probably totally innocent they could well become a source of sensitivity and difficulty for the incumbent of that office. I want to again emphasise that this may happen through no fault of his own.

I wish to refer to the question of instability which has been raised here this morning and over the past few weeks. I have to say — this is a political point and I make no apology for making it — that a great deal of the instability in this House has come from the benches opposite, most of which are now vacant. This may be the fault of both parties in Government or one or other of the parties in Government. I am not totally satisfied that there is 100 per cent agreement in either party all the time. People who have witnessed events here over the past few weeks will understand what I am saying.

If one asks himself the question, and it is peculiar when one reflects on it, how stable Governments have been in this country over the past 20 years one sees that since 1970 any Government comprised of Fianna Fáil or, as is the case now, of Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats one way or the other ended up being unstable after a short period, probably after about two years. Following the 1969 general election Ministers resigned, were fired and so on in 1970. In 1977 there was a general election with a massive majority for Fianna Fáil but 18 months down the road there was a change of leadership, indecision and loss at the next general election in 1981. In 1982 they won the general election. After a short period there was indecision, Ministers resigned and they were out of office again. In 1987 we had a minority Fianna Fáil Government, temporarily supported by this side of the House. Two years down the road there was indecision, struggling with consciences. This was followed by another general election. In 1989 we had a new Government. Two years down the road there are personality clashes, qualms of consciences and again they were wondering whether they would or would not, who would be leader, who would be Taoiseach, who had the right to be Taoiseach, and had the right to sack, who did not have the right to sack and so on. It goes on and on. We are back to instability again and we still have problems. That problem needs to be addressed seriously in this House at present because the economy and the wellbeing of the people are controlled either directly or indirectly by the manner in which the Government is run.

If the Government are seen to be stable and if the public and private institutions outside have confidence in that country and that Government the economy will prosper. If they do not have confidence, and the reverse seems to be the case, as time goes by we will be facing disaster.

What do the people outside think? Naturally they think we should be seriously dealing with the problems they regard as most urgent at present. It is no good that people on the Government side should say we are pointing the fickle finger at them at this time. It is a fact of life that there are 265,000 people unemployed at present. Thousands of students are coming on the labour force annually who are wondering whether they will ever get a job; thousands are emigrating, and there are thousands more whose jobs are in jeopardy or insecure in one way or another. There are still thousands who are now unemployable by virtue of the fact that they have been unemployed for so long as to be no longer a realistic part of the workforce. That is a serious problem. How many minutes still remain to me?

Acting Chairman

The Deputy has about 13 minutes.

I have to give way to my colleague after a few minutes. Incidentally, I congratulate the Ministers who are being appointed today and wish them well in their offices. I thank also the Ministers who were constructive in their responses to the Opposition over the past couple of years. This is something I have said before and I make no apology for repeating it. There is nothing to beat an honest response from a Minister to a parliamentary question. It is the one vital link about which Members of the Opposition have to keep themselves informed. Ministers are protected by being able to stand up in the House and answer questions honestly and truthfully in so far as they can having regard to the information available to them. There is nothing to be gained from being coy, smart-alecky and so on. I am not referring to the two Ministers in the House at present, or to many of the others, as they are both exemplary in the manner in which they address that issue. However, there are one or two who were notorious for their side-stepping and fancy foot work when it came to answering questions. It does not pay off, it does not help and it certainly is not good for accountability, stability or public confidence in the institutions of Government.

I thank Deputy Durkan for sharing his time with me. First, I wish the new Ministers and Ministers of State well, since it appears the Government resolution will now be carried. In particular, I wish Deputy Bertie Ahern well. As Fine Gael spokesperson on the public service I look forward to working closely with him in an atmosphere free of personal abuse and in a totally constructive manner. I am sure that is how we will co-operate and that Deputy Ahern will do a very good job in that portfolio.

I want to turn to the remarks made this morning by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley. His contribution was somewhat disingenuous, to put it mildly. If what he says is true and if what he says today is how he felt last night why was the Government motion not amended last night? If, in the opinion of Deputy O'Malley, Deputy McDaid is suitable to be a member of the Government — I am not casting any doubt on Deputy McDaid — why was he not switched to Education? Why was the motion not amended? That is what bothers me. He came in here today and said that Deputy McDaid is a wonderful man. I do not know the Deputy and I think we are entitled to accept that he is a man of integrity but the problem is in the area which Deputy O'Malley pointed out though he did not make that clear last night. He caused Deputy McDaid to withdraw because the Government simply could not carry the motion last night. Much has been made here today about what Deputy Taylor-Quinn said. Deputy Taylor-Quinn spoke immediately before Deputy McDaid. Deputy McDaid, as the Taoiseach said immediately after him, had already informed the Taoiseach of his intention to withdraw his nomination and he spoke from a prepared script which had been issued. It is totally disingenuous to try to sew into the record the sort of thing Deputy O'Malley said here this morning, that they would attempt to rewrite history. I find that completely unacceptable.

Given the performance we have had the Government cannot go anywhere without not just getting the agreement of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, but without getting it in duplicate and triplicate. He gives it one day, takes it back the next. Who is to know whether he might change his mind about these appointments next week? One cannot govern like that. This Dáil is doomed. The sooner the Taoiseach takes that issue on board, goes to the park dissolves the House and gets a new mandate for a new Government — whoever happens to get it — the better it will be for us all. We cannot constantly be held up to ransom by the Progressive Democrats. I do not mean this in an offensive way to Fianna Fáil but the Progressive Democrats have shown themselves to be no more than a small Fianna Fáil Party — they are not as good at being Fianna Fáil as the actual Fianna Fáil party. There is no purpose for the Progressive Democrats and it is totally disingenuous of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to come in here penitent this morning, having caused the downfall last night. If he felt as he did why did they not amend the motion and vote it through last night? They could not vote it through because Deputy O'Malley would not allow them.

I have a strong feeling which has grown over a period — and it is not something that relates to the current Government — that there is no need to account to the Dáil, that the Dáil is a rubber stamp, that the Dáil is taken for granted, that we can make speeches outside the House. This is not something that happened during the term of the present Government, it is something which has been happening for a while. The Dáil is constantly being denigrated and constantly set back and ignored. Take for instance facilities for Members: there is no head office in town which operates in the way this head office operates. The House showed last night that it is not a rubber stamp and cannot be taken for granted. We should start from there and reform the whole process so that we do have a major role to play in the Dáil as Members of the Dáil whether in Government or out of Government. Every Government since 1969 has changed. If the current Government will not do this for altruistic reasons let them do it for selfish reasons because there should be involvement through proper parliamentary committees and proper facilities and resources for those committees and Members of the House.

The Dáil is literally in the Dark Ages when it comes to dealing with matters. This is an adversarial system where Government Members are on one side of the House and the Opposition Deputies are on the other side. For instance, it should be possible — certainly where a Member is being added to the Government, whatever about an entirely new Government — to ratify that Member in Committee and to inquire into these matters in Committee. Perhaps, if a committee had the opportunity to flesh out all the matters the Minister for Industry and Commerce wanted fleshed out, he might have had a different attitude to the situation last night.

Why does everything have to be done through an adversarial system? Why was this not examined in committee to find out whether a person is suitable for appointment as a Minister? It is because nobody wants to take the Dáil seriously. One side must have it all or nothing. That is wrong. The Opposition must become more involved with Government Members of the House in making decisions. It is time for the Government to put Dáil reform firmly back on the agenda. A lot of progress was made in this area when Deputy Ahern was Chief Whip.

Given what happened in Northern Ireland last night and what is happening there constantly we must make it absolutely clear that we can have no truck with the Provisional IRA or other people like that. We take it for granted that the tension which is palpable in Belfast city will be contained there. I had the opportunity a few years ago to be able to go up and down once a week to Queens University. I often crossed O'Connell Bridge at 8.45 a.m. to be at Queens University at 11 a.m. for a lecture. It is a very short journey from here to Belfast. Whether or not the troubles are contained there we have to make it clear that there can be no truck with the IRA or their associates, whether with regard to the concerned parents, the letting of the Mansion House or anything else. We cannot strike a constitutional attitude to this. The Provos are the enemies of all, not just of Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil, the Progressive Democrats, The Workers Party or the Labour Party. We can have no truck with them. It is wrong to sympathise today with Deputy McDaid because he tried to enhance his standing with his constituents by associating with these people in a congratulatory way. Perhaps the Taoiseach proposes to appoint Deputy McDaid as a Minister of State and perhaps Deputy McDaid will have another day.

When we ask ourselves why there is such lawlessness and such vandalism throughout the country, a country which holds itself up as a Christian country, we can point to the fact that the IRA and their fellow travellers showed the way in relation to robbing banks and subverting the law. We have to row back from any truck with the IRA. That must be the bottom line. This debate, if it does nothing else, should make it clear that the IRA is the enemy of all.

I wish Deputy McDaid well in the future. I hope he will put this episode behind him and that in time he will show that he would not be the wrong person to appoint as Minister for Defence. Last night the House could not agree to his appointment. Fine Gael have 53 Members who could not agree to his appointment, but neither could the other parties on this occasion. Perhaps in the future all Members of the House will have an opportunity to show their total and absolute resistance to the IRA. Perhaps the parents of the five week old child who is being treated today and the two children aged 12 and two who were in another room when the men were shot last night will be able to look to the South and say that there are people in the Republic who really care. I care about it and I know that the House cares about it, but we must show it. We should have no truck with the IRA and be seen to have no truck with them. Let us put all the codology to one side. If a Deputy has any truck with people like that it is up to us to take the down side if the glamour goes wrong.

I find it difficult to see how this Government can survive. I have been in this House for almost 11 years and I doubt if anyone has seen the sort of shenanigans that have gone on over the last year. It is difficult to imagine how the Government can cohesively address the problems of unemployment and emigration and the problems in the public finances. These questions must be addressed if our young people are to have some opportunity in the 21st century. Energy is being wasted through constant conflict and internal strife and this internecine dispute which is going on. It is time to clear the air. Not one of us likes elections, but it is time to clear the air. This simply cannot go on. Deputy O'Malley and company should either rejoin Fianna Fáil or do the decent thing, but they cannot have their cake and eat it. As things stand, not only do they want their cake but everybody else's as well. Let us clear the air and stop looking for other people on which to put the blame. There were enough votes on the Government side last night to illustrate a cohesive Government. They failed that test. How can we take this Government at face value and imagine that they can address the serious issues which the country faces?

I am glad of the opportunity to speak about the events of yesterday and about economic matters. Listening to other speakers in the last two hours or so, I gather that people are generally reflecting on what happened throughout yesterday in a more purposeful way than the way in which the debate was conducted yesterday during the course of bitter exchanges. I take on board the comments made by Deputies Durkan and Gay Mitchell. I am almost 15 years here and I have rarely seen a day as divisive as yesterday. I take tha point of Deputy Gay Mitchell that perhaps Dáil reform would be a help in that area. In the words of Deputy McDaid last night, it was a very disappointing occasion when his proposed appointment was marred by totally unfounded allegations against him by some Members of the House. I take Deputy Mitchell's point with regard to the Provisional IRA. However, hard things were said yesterday about Deputy McDaid and they do not stand up. The allegations were offensive to Deputy McDaid as an individual apart from his position as a proposed holder of the office of Minister for Defence. It was wrong to accuse the man straightforwardly without innuendo as being a Provo fellow traveller.

The second allegation that I found totally offensive was that if Deputy McDaid was Minister for Defence this would lead to an increase in the number of leaks from the Defence Forces to the Provisional IRA. Both of those remarks added nothing to the debate but did a lot of damage to the name of the colleague of mine, a colleague of us all because he is a Member of the House. In my 15 years here I have always tended to look to the roof or to the wall rather than listen to the mud slinging that is often part of an ill-tempered debate but which then dies down. However, yesterday there was a concerted attempt against Deputy McDaid. It must be left to the historians to analyse what went on here yesterday, but as far as I could see it seemed to be a case of vieing to see who could say the most vicious thing about the Deputy.

Because Deputy McDaid took part in the aftermath of a court case, because he knew the individual concerned, knew something about him and thought he was doing right on behalf of a constituent, he was attacked by the Opposition parties; but many people in this House have done the same in other cases. If we are to be honest it would be hard for any of us here to stand up and say anything in this House if we were to go back and check all of the things we did. Most Members of this House at one time or another speak to members of prison committees and get letters from constituents who are prisoners or from the parents of prisoners, sometimes Republican prisoners and other times people with ordinary criminal records. These things have to be handled with care and people have to check what the position is. Over the years I have heard members of the Oireachtas from all sides of the House making speeches against the security forces, the Garda, believing themselves to be right at the time. Susequently, if they are found to be wrong they are normally gracious enough to admit that.

I believe that Deputy McDaid probably made the right decision last night in view of what happened. It is not an easy thing to do, when nominated for any position, to withdraw as he did. His words will stand out among all the records in this House because they were unique. He said last night that in view of attacks made on him and to avoid the slightest suspicion, however unwarranted, attaching to the Minister for Defence and in the broader national interest he was requesting the Taoiseach to withdraw his nomination as a member of the Government. That was never done in this House before, and it was not an easy thing to do. Whatever comments and remarks are made about Deputy James McDaid, that should be remembered to his credit.

I agree with Deputy Gay Mitchell who was gracious enough to say that Deputy McDaid should be wished well in this House, and I think the matter should rest there. Very harsh remarks which were unfounded were made by some members of the Opposition. Their colleagues have now pulled back from them and it would be helpful if we saw a pulling back from them on all sides today before the end of the debate. It will not change who the next Minister for Defence will be. We have gone beyond that since last night. But pulling back will restore the integrity of a decent, honourable, hardworking, professional doctor and Deputy in this House.

In the last few months there has been a big increase in the number of personalised attacks on the characters of Members of this House. It cannot go unnoticed that yesterday, within hours of a relatively unknown backbencher's name being mentioned as Minister for Defence, extensive files were out. One can only ask if there were other files had anyone else been picked. That was remarkable and something I have never seen before in all my years in this House.

I think the Opposition made some good points today. They made some good points about employment, emigration, about public finances, about the Government working and about its credibility. They were all legitimate points made by the Opposition. That is what we would be doing if things were the other way around. It is what I did between 1982 and 1987 when I was on the benches occupied by Deputies Mitchell and Durcan. However, I do not think that the absolutely personal character assassinations that have been going on in this House in recent weeks do anything for the House. I would have much in common with Deputy Gay Mitchell. I admire the work he does on committees in this House. If we cannot debate policy and discuss our party differences in the third person then we are not much good to the electorate. If we carried the kind of friction and bitterness and absolute hate that was around this House last night out to the public at large we would not achieve much for the electorate, whether they are supporters of Government or of Opposition. The period from mid October until now has not been very long in Dáil terms. People argue that we had a long summer recess, but I have a feeling that the public may think that we did not have long enough if all we can do is to try to murder each other off by levelling abuse and counter abuse at each other. I hope we can now stop that on all sides and do the job that I understood we were elected to do in 1977 and which has still to be done.

Tackling unemployment remains the number one priority of this Government. The most effective role which the Government can play is in the creation of the optimum conditions for attracting and stimulating investment to enable employment to grow. Self-sustaining, viable jobs are the only real answer to the twin problems of unemployment and emigration.

Rising unemployment is not unique to Ireland: it is part of a global trend. Over the last year unemployment has risen by over two million in the USA while countries as far apart as Australia, Canada, Finland and the UK have all witnessed similar percentage increases in unemployment to that recorded here. It should be borne in mind that many of these countries are not experiencing the same growth in the labour force or the phenomenon of returning emigrants as Ireland. It cannot be denied that the recent rise in unemployment has been largely caused by the global recession and the consequent cessation of emigration.

As I have already pointed out, the Irish economy has performed very well over the past four years and, despite the protracted worldwise recession, is continuing to do so. All the evidence suggests that employment levels are holding steady and should, in fact, record a slight increase on last year. The latest ESRI Medium-Term Review predicts an annual average growth of 3.7 per cent in GNP up to 1996. Employment is expected to grow by 50,000 over the period — by 75,000 in non-agricultural sectors.

The achievement of these goals required and continues to require the co-operation of all the major economic and social interests in society. For that reason we must avoid the temptation to resort to short term ad hoc remedies which usually treat the symptom of unemployment instead of the disease which is lack of investment and the resulting lack of jobs. We would do well to remember that much larger and more powerful economies than our own, France for instance, have attempted to follow this path and have been forced to abandon it. It is vital, therefore, that we hold our nerve and not allow ourselves to be panicked into rash action merely because it seems expedient in the short term.

In its Spring Commentary the ESRI stated:

It is very difficult to discover measures which could ameliorate the unemployment problem in the short term without exacerbating it in the longer term.... To increase the budget deficit further in an attempt to combat unemployment arising from international economic trends would be foolhardy and could jeopardise the economic strategy on which sustained employment growth depends

The OECD, in its commentary, agrees:

Persistence with the considerable policy efforts already embarked upon provides the best chance for the continuation of the impressive economic performance achieved over the past three years.

In considering macho-policies I would remind the House that a key ingredient of economic growth and development — and one that cannot be measured in quantitative terms — is business confidence which, in turn, impacts on the economic behaviour of entrepreneurs. The decision to invest or expand is largely influenced by the general perception of the prevailing stability and financial climate.

Commentators too often prefer to see the negative side of economic indicators and, in an atmosphere of doom and gloom, people will react and respond accordingly. This only exacerbates the economic situation. Recently a leading Irish economist noted how, in recent years, the economy responds given the right conditions when business confidence begins to recover, and there is a general perception of economic stability and continued growth. We should remind ourselves that, given the global situation, Ireland is performing well and is proving an attractive location for potential investors. We must all be careful not to discourage investment by over-emphasising the negative aspects.

Having said that, the Government are fully aware of the situation. We are convinced that any remedial action must accord with, and complement, the overall strategy and objectives encompassed by the Programme for Economic and Social Progress, any other action would be counterproductive. As part of their strategy to deal with rising unemployment the Government established the Task Force on employment and the Industrial Policy Review Group to identify and suggest remedies to obstructions to employment creation which might exist.

Unemployment will also be a major issue in the White Paper on Manpower Policy which I have been working on for a number of months. I would not say that this will resolve all the problems overnight but the measures contained in the final draft will be of help to Governments in the decade ahead in identifying where the problems lie and deciding how to overcome some of the obstacles.

Despite the fact that the fundamentals of the economy remain sound, the Government are by no means complacent about the problems which exist, particularly that of unemployment. The number of redundancies notified to my Department last year was 13,292 which was the lowest annual total since 1979. The total number of redundancies notified to the Department in the first nine months this year was 12,471 as compared with a figure of 10,620 for the corresponding period in 1990. This increase of approximately 17 per cent is believed to have arisen through a combination of reasons, namely, global recession, continuing rationalisation, loss of markets and the temporary dislocation of business due to the Gulf crisis.

An analysis of the monthly returns so far in 1991 shows that while the trend in the figures in the early part of the year was upwards, it is now evident that this increasing trend has levelled off somewhat in the more recent months. It is expected that, based on the above returns, the total number of notified redundancies in 1991 could amount to 16,000 to 17,000. Although this would be in excess of 1989 and 1990 totals of 13,395 and 13,292 respectively, it would compare favourably with the annual average figure of 22,400 for the ten year period 1981-1990, inclusive, and would be substantially beneath the figure of 31,290 for the peak year of 1984 in this period.

Although the outlook for 1992 is still uncertain much depends on the recovery in other countries in particular the UK. It is not all gloom however, and the broad picture is for a somewhat better economic climate next year.

The OECD project world output growth of almost 3 per cent in 1992 compared with 1 per cent this year; the EC Commission projects growth of 2.25 per cent for the EC as a whole; significantly from our viewpoint, the Commission projects growth of 2 per cent for the UK, following a decline of the same order this year. Given the strong improvement in our economic fundamentals in the last few years, we are now in a very good position to take advantage of the world upswing in economic activity as soon as it gets under way. The Single European market after 1992 will also bring a substantial increase in intra-EC trade from which we should benefit significantly.

This Government have a lot to be proud of. We have introduced a level of consensus between the social partners from which we should all benefit. Given the comments made in the House this morning, I think everybody is now supportive of this mechanism, regardless of who is in Government. We have overseen a level of inflation which is the envy of Europe and it continues to remain low. Our policies have ensured a balance of payments surplus of record proportions in recent years. Our Exchequer borrowing requirement, at 2.5 per cent, is at a level which would have seemed impossible a few years ago.

The fight against unemployment remains to be won. We must bring to that task the same level of commitment and energy with which we have tackled the other considerable difficulties we faced and successfully overcame. The House can be assured that the Government will spare no effort to bring about the conditions which will ensure that the problem of unemployment, which remains at a high level, will eventually be eliminated.

Let me reiterate my abiding concern for reasoned and reasonable debate. The issues of employment and the state of public finances are the real issues to be tackled in this House. The Government ought not be diverted or deflected from the real job on hand. The task is maintaining and advancing the progress, economic and otherwise, which has been the hallmark of this Government.

(Limerick East): May I take this opportunity to congratulate Deputy Ahern on his appointment as Minister for Finance and to wish him every success in that office?

Thank you, Deputy.

Given the speech made earlier by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy O'Malley, it is apparent that the appointments of the two Ministers who are the subject of this motion will be confirmed this evening although I say that with some trepidation. Since that is the way it is likely to go I would like to offer my congratulations to Deputy Ahern on his appointment as the new Minister for Finance. In terms of the talent available to the Taoiseach it is about the only sensible rational decision he has made in regard to the entire Cabinet. I am not saying that the skills Deputy Ahern brought to bear with such effect in the area of industrial relations are necessarily singularly suited to the Department of Finance but he has been, in my experience as spokesperson on labour and as a former trade union official, the best Minister for Labour that this State has seen in the years I have been following politics and industrial relations. I would like to take this opportunity to wish him well as Minister for Finance.

Whether or not he can bring both sides of the road with him on the economy is another issue. I will say a few words about that later because I was not buoyed up too much by the section of his speech on the economy which I heard since I came into the House. He trotted out phrases such as "business confidence" and "upswing in world economic activity." He said that our economic problems are due to the fact that we have more young people coming on to the labour market than is the case elsewhere in Europe and that emigrants are returning but it seems this is not going to mark any change from the failed economic policies which have got us into the situation we are in now. Nonetheless, I offer the Minister my congratulations and they are sincere.

Nobody, not even the person most acquiescent to the charms of the Government Press Secretary, has so far described the new Cabinet as a Cabinet of all the talents. It is extraordinary that some of the people who have performed so weakly are still in place.

When reference is made by many of the media commentators to all the talent on the backbenches I very often regret that I went astray in my early political career and did not join Fianna Fáil because it seems that any kind of outburst about the weather, a football match or whatever entitles one to be described as talented and available to serve in high office.

Debate adjourned.
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