Vol. 412 No. 8
I move:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £100,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of December, 1991, for the salaries and expenses of the Civil Service Commission and of the Local Appointments Commission.
The purpose of the Supplementary Estimate for Vote 35 is to provide for expenditure under new subheads on Ireland's participation at Expo '92 in Spain, and on services related to the transfer of functions of the Air Navigation Services Office from my Department to a semi-State body.
Today's Supplementary Estimate will facilitate Ireland's preparations for Expo '92. Participation at the "Universal Exposition of Seville 1992" will cost up to £4 million and this Supplementary provides for expenditure in the current financial year of £1.25 million, which will come from the national lottery.
Expo '92 is a major cultural event. It is billed as the last and biggest world exposition of the 20th century. It is classed as a universal exposition, the highest category within the hierarchy of international exhibitions. There have been only seven such exhibitions this century, the last one in Europe being as far back as 1958 in Brussels. The event will run from 20 April to 12 October of next year. More than 100 countries are participating, including all 12 members of the European Community.
Nineteen ninety-two marks the 500th anniversary of Columbus's voyage to America and provides Expo with its main theme "The Age of Discovery". The event is to be a celebration of cultural and scientific discovery from the 15th century to date. The organisers are expecting more than 18 million visitors.
Ireland cannot afford to pass up the opportunity of a national presence. It will be a universal showcase of 20th century technological, cultural and artistic capability and achievement. It offers Ireland a unique opportunity to reinforce the very positive world image we have been so carefully building up over the years. The objective of being there is to present in a prestigious international forum all that is best about our country, our culture, our heritage and our products and to explain why Ireland is an ideal location for foreign investment. It will be a chance to show off developments in technology, agriculture and the arts and to demonstrate the skills and education of the Irish workforce.
The total cost of our involvement in Expo will be in the region of £4 million. The project is being managed by a steering group comprising representatives of my Department, Bord Fáilte, the Departments of the Taoiseach and Foreign Affairs, the Office of Public Works and An Bord Tráchtála. The steering group have already appointed a full-time director for the project on a consultancy basis to manage operations on site in Seville. His contract will run for a period of 18 months and he will be reporting to the steering group. The major expenditure item will be £2.7 million on the design, construction and fitting out of the Irish pavilion. Other major costs will be to staff the pavilion and the organisation and staging of some 40 planned cultural events.
The steering group are at present actively pursuing a sponsorship programme under which commercial sponsors will also have the opportunity to participate. The exposition offers exciting opportunities for sponsors, especially Irish companies, who already have a European or international presence or companies needing to establish such a presence.
Visitors to the Irish pavilion will be taken through developments in Irish history and culture from before the era of the "Island of Saints and Scholars" right through to the present day. They will see exhibits based on the best of Irish industry, Irish technology, Irish agriculture and finally — Irish people — both the friendly face of our people and our highly educated, highly skilled workforce.
Work on the 7,000 sq. foot architecturally unique Irish pavilion is already well advanced. It is strategically located on site, on Avenue of Europe, and will be highly visible from the Expo monorail which passes close by. Virtually all aspects of the pavilion will be Irish made, from the design through the construction to the final fit-out.
Ireland's image as an attractive, highquality holiday destination will be strongly featured in Seville. The very design of the pavilion will embody some of the key elements of our unique appeal for tourists evoking a clean, green island landscape and coastline on the very edge of Europe. It is estimated that over half a million visitors will visit the Irish pavilion during the six months of Expo '92 — in other words, half a million potential visitors to Ireland. They will be exposed to a package of exhibitions, audio visual displays and performances highlighting the allure of Ireland as a holiday destination.
Visitor numbers from Spain have more than doubled since 1986, showing growth of 135 per cent between 1986 and 1990. Numbers grew last year alone by 42 per cent on 1989. The Spanish tourist market into Ireland is now worth over £30 million to the Irish economy and is heading for some 60,000 visitors per annum. Over half the 18 million visitors expected at Expo will be Spanish, giving us an immediate opportunity to further increase penetration of the Spanish market.
We are still in the throes of a revolution in Irish tourism aimed at developing the full potential of a sector which last year alone earned over £1 billion in foreign revenue, equivalent to almost 7 per cent of total exports, and which now supports nearly 80,000 jobs in the overall economy. Tourism is our leading internationally-traded service, accounting for 60 per cent of total services exports, contributing more than £400 million, or over 50 per cent, to the surplus on our overall balance of payments and providing one in every three new jobs created in the economy between 1985 and 1990.
The £300 million package of product development and marketing initiatives currently being implemented under the EC operational programme for tourism has already resulted in approval for eligible investments totalling £160 million, including £80 million in grant aid from the European Regional Development Fund. This investment will be a key factor in maintaining growth in Irish tourism. There has been a downturn this year in demand for international tourism and travel generally because of the Gulf War and recession in some key markets. We can take some comfort, however, from the latest CSO estimates of this year's tourism performance. These figures show that while there was an overall drop of 2.7 per cent in visitor numbers for the first nine months of the year, a considerably lower reduction than was expected, revenue actually increased by 8 per cent for the half year to end June. All the indications are that tourism is recovering from that setback and the industry are already confidently predicting a return to growth n 1992.
Our participation at Expo '92 will also, of course, provide an opportunity to raise awareness about Ireland as a modern economy and as a member of the European Community. It will inform visitors to the pavilion that this country is a serious producer of high-tech goods, an attractive investment location and a competitive source of goods. As well as Bord Fáilte, the IDA and An Bord Tráchtála will be on hand to deal with the inquiries of visitors to the pavilion in a professional manner
This Supplementary Estimate also makes provision for expenditure involved in estabishing the new Irish Aviation Authority. A token provision of £1,000 has been made for 1991. As my colleague, the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications, Deputy Brennan, announced last July, the Government decided to establish the Irish Aviation Authority. The Authority will be a commercial semi-State body to operate air traffic services in Irish airspace and regulate aviation safety matters in accordance with well defined international standards. The Authority will take over the functions and staff of the Department's Air Navigation Services Office, otherwise known as ANSO.
Whilst ANSO has the necessary sinews to quickly become a semi-State body it cannot be done instantaneously. In particular, we need to establish the corporate financial base, to negotiate the transition arrangements with staff and to bring to the House the necessary legislation to give statutory effect to the proposals. The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to make provision for the expenditure that will be necessary in connection with the transition arrangements. I should mention that this expenditure is part of the overall ANSO cost structure and as such will be recovered from the users.
The intention is that the new Authority will be operational in 1992 and we will be introducing a Bill for the purpose shortly. The House will then have an opportunity to fully debate the matter. In all, approximately 600 staff will be transferred from the Department to the new body. The transfer will bring a welcome lightening to the payroll costs for my Department and for the Exchequer. My hope is that the new Authority will be able to expand employment with worthwhile jobs in a high technology expanding industry.
The Aviation Authority will ensure that as a State we can readily meet the challenges posed by increased traffic; and tap the worldwide potential currently emerging in training and consultancy work.
The Authority will inherit from ANSO a pool of proven expertise which, freed from the constraints of Civil Service procedures, will respond quickly and positively to the changing circumstances and challenges of the industry.
During the eighties, there was a significant growth in air traffic. All reliable indicators point to continued long term growth in international air traffic of about 5 per cent per annum which would be equivalent to a doubling of traffic by the year 2005. Growth of this magnitude presents an enormous challenge to expand the capacity of navigation systems to meet the growth in demand. It requires investment in manpower, skills and equipment. I am satisfied that, so far, we have been equal to the challenge. In establishing the authority we will maintain our ability to meet competitively the challenge in the years ahead.
A £30 million investment programme initiated in the late eighties and due for completion in 1992 helped us to avoid the worst of the European air traffic problems. The staff and equipment we use to control and manage 100,000 sq. miles of airspace are comparable to the best in Europe. Moreover, our systems can be integrated with those of our European partners to provide what will be eventually a seamless network of air traffic control facilities throughout Europe.
Delays and disruptions in one country have a domino-like effect throughout the air traffic system. At a European level we must work effectively to resolve our problems. We in Ireland have been to the forefront in developing the strategies of flow management and the harmonisation of systems which will resolve the problems we have seen.
ANSO discharges very clearly defined executive functions that already comprise a substantial business. Given the right conditions, I am satisfied that this is a business which, to coin a phrase, can stand on its own feet and furthermore can be developed to expand on its considerable employment and profit potential. Currently it employs approximately 600 highly skilled personnel in a variety of operational and regulatory roles. Under various international conventions the cost of the services provided by ANSO — which we estimate at £32 million — can be, and is recovered from the users. The vast majority of the users are foreign airlines which use Irish airspace and airport facilities. Indeed more than 50 per cent of current ANSO revenues come from aircraft which do not land at all in Ireland.
The continuing worldwide expansion of aviation combined with the dismantling of socialist controls in the former Eastern European states is creating a major market for the type of skills that ANSO has. I am satisfied that, re-created as a viable commercial semi-State body, the Authority can tap into that market, where it already has had one or two small successes. Moreover, it can, as necessary, link up with other bodies such as Aer Rianta and educational establishments to provide tailormade packages for its clients.
In conclusion, this Supplementary Estimate provides expenditure which, on the one hand, will assist with the continued growth in Irish tourism and, on the other, will constitute the first step in establishing a new Aviation Authority. Both the issues involved are worthy of support from all sides of the House. I commend this Supplementary Estimate to the House.
I welcome this opportunity to speak to this supplementary Estimate. It is amazing the uses to which the funds from the national lottery are being put. I would have thought that all the Departments involved would have made funds available out of their own Estimates rather than use national lottery funds. They appear to be a soft touch when we want to further promote the country.
As the Minister of State has said, the purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to provide £1.25 million to meet some of the cost of our participation, up to £4 million, at this exhibition to be held in 1992. It is very welcome that Bord Fáilte, the Industrial Development Authority and Córas Tráchtála will all be involved together in selling Ireland at this exhibition. If we have learned anything from the past when different Departments sent people to fairs all across the world it is that a positive approach should be adopted and that we should combine their best efforts under the one roof. We can no longer afford to send abroad five or six different groups from different Departments and boards to sell Ireland under different headings. This could mark the beginning of something most important in selling Ireland in the future.
Expo '92 will provide a golden opportunity to sell Ireland as a tourism destination, an industrial base and a country with many fine companies producing products which are known worldwide. Our presence at Expo will be an opportunity to update and improve our image abroad; indeed after the past four months any opportunity to improve that image on an international basis and stage must be very welcome. The theme, as the Minister said, for this exhibition is discovery. I am delighted that we will have the opportunity to rediscover what we are good at. Indeed, the publicity we received abroad over the last couple of months will be put behind us and the opportunities here to would-be investors will be improved. At the end of this important exhibition we will be seen on the international stage as a most important country in relation to tourism and investment, with a highly educated available workforce.
Expo '92 gives Ireland an opportunity to be associated with 100 other countries to display what we are good at and to sell Ireland as a tourist destination. Will the Minister say whether any thought has been given to the possibility of over the period of the six months of the exhibition providing young, educated trained people in marketing and giving some of them an opportunity to attend at different times to see and meet people from a possible 100 other countries? We have the finest young educated marketing people; and I know many who are in college at the moment, some of whom will be finishing next year. They would be delighted to have an opportunity to attend such an exhibition and to make the acquaintance of people from other countries. During this exhibition will the Minister agree it would be of prime importance that some of our excellent companies, who will not be able to afford to get involved in sponsorship about which the Minister has spoken, would be given an opportunity to attend the exhibition at different times? Special programmes should be arranged for companies like this whose products would certainly make the grade on the world market. In 1992 we will have an opportunity to do those things.
The Minister of State represents the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications. I ask them, the Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Taoiseach to seriously consider putting together an array of good companies, small though some of them may be, who are excellent in the job they do here to show other countries our expertise as a result of our educated, fully trained professional people who are prepared to market Ireland in their chosen field. I hope that, if nothing else comes out of this debate, consideration will be given to those points.
Before I refer to the aviation authority to which the Minister referred I should like to comment on the overall tourism position. We did not have too bad a year, although figures were down slightly. This has been blamed on international events, including the Gulf War. When Estimates are being prepared by the Minister's Department regard should be had to the stop-go funding by the Department, the Minister and the Government for the tourism budget over the last number of years. Because it is fast becoming the biggest industry in the State sufficient funds should be made available early in the budget without further reductions. There are many positive people in the industry working in different countries throughout Europe and it is obvious from the work done last year and this year, and from the success of the Irish team in Italia 90, that many more Europeans are interested in coming to Ireland on holidays. I do not believe that reducing moneys in the Estimate and resubmitting them in the budget, as happened last year, is a positive way to finance Bord Fáilte and others involved in the industry.
The industry has responded very successfully to the request made by the Government. The work done as a result of the business expansion scheme, the improvements to premises, was worthwhile. I appeal to the Minister before a budget decision is made to reconsider the business expansion scheme on a small scale for family hotels throughout the length and breadth of the country. There was a problem in this regard since it was discovered that there was an abuse of moneys which was not fully in line with what the business expansion scheme was designed for. I blame the Government for not closing the loophole. On the day of the budget, because of the pressure from many Deputies on this side of the House, the decision of the Minister for Finance had to be reversed. If tourism is to continue to thrive in the way it has in the recent past, family hotels will have to be given consideration for moneys to be made available through the business expansion scheme or for grants in respect of up to a 40 bedroom hotel. Several thousand people, not just in Ireland but throughout Europe, want reasonably priced accommodation in a family hotel. We do not have a sufficient number of them and I am sure that the Minister knows by now how serious the problem is.
Serious consideration needs to be given to the car rental business. The Minister is aware that there are about 10,000 cars in the fleet but sometimes during the summer there were not enough cars available. There is also a serious problem in relation to the cost of hiring a car because the leasing companies must allow for insurance and the cost of replacing the fleet. Japanese imports have created havoc with the fleet car market in this country. I was very disappoined to learn recently that when the organisation for car leasing companies came to meet the Minister the first thing he told them was that if their proposals require an investment of funds there would be no point in having a discussion. I do not believe that is the way a major part of the tourism industry should be dealt with by the Minister. There is a strong case to be made for a change in the purchasing system of fleet cars. Perhaps consideration could be given to the non-payment of duty on those cars until they are resold six to 12 months after their purchase. That would give an opportunity to the car leasing companies to reduce their costs.
I will give an example of holi-daymakers who came from America to London, spent a week in Britain, hired a car, came across on the ferry and spent two weeks in Ireland. They found that it cost less to do that than to rent a car when they came to Ireland. There is a serious problem in that area and it needs to be addressed by the Government. The proposals in this regard need to be considered in the budget and I hope the Minister will take on board the points I have made.
As regards the proposal by the Minister to set up a new authority to oversee air traffic controllers, I want to pose some questions to the Minister. Would this country not be much better if we operated under a single European traffic control system? If such a proposal was introduced would there not be a reduction in fares of about 14 per cent? If my facts are correct we are talking about quite a substantial reduction in the cost of air fares for people living here and business people travelling to and from the country. Serious consideration should have been given to such a proposal before it was decided to set up a new semi-State body, as was announced by the Minister earlier this year. I would ask the Minister why he did not propose that Aer Rianta do this work, considering that they are running the business of the airports. Why has he proposed the setting up of a new semi-State body in this area?
With the opening of the Channel tunnel our country will be the only isolated country within Europe and I would like to know why consideration was not given to a proposal that would reduce the cost of fares by 14 per cent? I would also ask the Minister what charges will be incurred by the new company. He informed us today that a substantial amount of money is being paid by air companies who do not land here. If my information is true, consideration should be given to withdrawing the proposal to set up a new semi-State body.
As far as Expo '92 is concerned, we should take advantage of the opportunities involved. I would ask the Minister to consider seriously the points I have raised. The two main problems affecting tourism this year should also be considered by the Government and a decision made on them before budget day. I would also ask that the points I have raised with regard to the new company be considered. Proposals to join a European network should be addressed because it would mean a reduction in air fares.
I am glad to have the opportunity of speaking on this Supplementary Estimate as presented by the Minister. When I learned that a Supplementary Estimate was required in respect of Expo '92 I was deeply concerned that this money would be funded from the tourism estimates in the budget. Having regard to the pattern of the tourism budget in recent years — the amount has been reduced each year — I was deeply concerned that there would be a further reduction, gravely inhibiting the promotional and marketing projects for Irish tourism, which would be a disaster. I am pleased to know that the Government are providing the necessary funds from the national lottery. Our involvement in Expo '92 is of vital importance to tourism, agriculture, industry and our cultural image abroad. In the Minister's submission it is anticipated that 18 million people will visit this exhibition. That will give Ireland an opportunity over a long period of time to put its best goods in the shop window for all the international interests to see. It will be an opportunity for Ireland to put forward an image second to none.
From the point of view of the tourist industry we are at a cross-roads in terms of the magnitude of competition facing Irish tourism. Having regard to the current position of our economy, with unemployment a major crisis, we must look to tourism as the prime industry, with the capacity and the potential to be the greatest industry in the development of jobs which are so vitally required. In that exercise we must expend increased funds in promoting the Irish product to all markets.
I am concerned about the present staffing of Bord Fáilte in so far as many of its European and American offices have had to be closed down in recent years due to lack of funds. Will the necessary expertise in staff that may possibly be needed for several months in the city structure here be taken from other vital sectors? I hope that the Minister, in conjunction with Bord Fáilte, will ensure not only that the promotion is adequately and properly staffed but also that other centres are not robbed of their expertise in the necessary work of promoting and marketing Irish tourism.
We certainly have some excellent tourist products to put on display in Seville. In view of the association there with agriculture and in view of the importance of food and the attractiveness of Ireland to tourists, it would certainly help if not only the quality of the food but also the cooking expertise and the services of our chefs, waiters and others engaged in the tourist industry in farm guesthouses, town and country homes and other such places were brought forcibly to bear on the 18 million people who will visit our pavilion. We need to highlight the association, co-operation and co-ordination of the marketing expertise of Irish agriculture and Irish tourism because both are very closely linked. I certainly wish the Irish exhibition within the pavilion every success. It has the opportunity to present Ireland at its best. I hope that it will result in much needed expansion in the tourist industry in particular and also that industry, agriculture and the areas governed by cultural, educational and other activities will grow to benefit the economy.
Irish tourism is today more important than ever in that it has the potential to create the substantial growth and employment that is so vitally needed. However, as I have said already, neither this Government nor any other Government have recognised the tremendous potential within Irish industry to bring wealth and employment to this country. Our expenditure from national funds is both minimal and inadequate. That inadequate budget has tended to be gradually eroded each year. In 1986 for promotion and marketing Bord Fáilte received £25.6 million but in 1990 they received £23 million. At a time when we want jobs and more investment in tourism that budgetary estimate is completely inadequate and will not contribute towards achievement of the potential role tourism could play in the search for jobs and wealth.
There was a degree of growth in the current tourist season, but that growth was mainly confined to package tours. The growth was welcome but expansion is still needed. In addition to that, however — and this is a subject that the previous speaker mentioned — Ireland is an ideal location for the freelancing tourist — individuals, families and groups coming by way of their own transport, whether that be by minibus or car, and the many thousands who come through Dublin and Shannon Airports and the ferryports and who have traditionally availed of our excellent car hire service. That service is now in absolute chaos and that is something to which the Minister and Bord Fáilte will have to turn their attention. Not only is that service a vital instrument in the overall structure of a successful Irish tourist industry but it is also a creator of jobs, jobs within the car hire fleets and in places such as garages in connection with servicing those fleets. That loss in itself at these times is of very serious proportions.
It was contended, and indeed experienced, that the Gulf War would result in a substantial decrease in the number of American tourists to Ireland. Any person conversant with traditional Irish tourism would recognise that without a strong USA complement our tourism lacks a very vital part of its overall development and that was experienced this year. It is my contention that it is too simplistic an explanation to merely say that the substantial decrease of between 20 per cent and 25 per cent in American travellers this year was due entirely to the Gulf War: there were several other contributing factors. I have already said that our promotion and marketing resources within the huge American market are too little. Because of immense competition, we must spend to get an increased number of people to avail of our excellent tourist product. We must also bear in mind that we now have only two major transatlantic airlines servicing Ireland, Aer Lingus and Delta. That in itself presents very serious restrictions on the choice of airlines coming to Ireland, but we must also take account of the fact that fares from the US to Britain on some scheduled airlines — and there are ten to 12 airlines servicing Britain every day — cost $200 less. I know that is a major factor which will be difficult to resolve, but we cannot achieve the possible expansion in our tourist market without competition in the air fares between the United States and Ireland and the United States and Britain.
Many airlines service Britain and as a result Britain is a primary tourist destination with between three million and five million American tourists visiting it each year. We are a secondary tourist resort and we require some positive clawback structure to encourage those tourists to visit Ireland for periods of one, two or three days. We should have a privileged extended air ticket into Ireland. It would result in a substantial increase in the volume of trade into Ireland. At present a similar facility is offered on a limited basis to Australians coming to Britain. The incentive should be permanently on offer to attract those people to visit us. It should be a matter for the airlines and the sea carriers to negotiate with the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications and Bord Fáilte and put in place an attractive package that would result in substantial benefits to our tourist industry.
The decision by British Airways in February last to cease their service in Ireland was a severe blow to this business. British Airways, are a very prestigious airline. They not only brought people from Europe and further afield into Ireland but their massive advertising programme kept Ireland on the map in very important international centres. We have found no substitute for the loss of the British Airways service to Ireland and that is regrettable. With a proper programme of incentives it should be possible, in co-operation with airlines and sea carriers, to make a substantial impact on the market which would be of considerable benefit to Irish tourism. It would also encourage further investment.
In 1990 the Irish tourist industry invested £56 million, in addition to State moneys, in promoting and marketing the Irish tourist product. It must be recognised, however, that the majority of those involved in the Irish tourist industry have family businesses or small units. To continually maintain an investment of that magnitude is well beyond their capacity and so I appeal again for a substantial increase in the marketing and promotion budget for 1992. This was never more necessary to ensure a substantial increase in the volume of business and as a means of challenging our unemployment crisis. Tourism is a service industry and provides a great deal of employment. Each increase in the number of tourists provides a corresponding increase in jobs.
It has been said that the Structural Funds have been supplementing the budget for marketing and promotion of our tourist product, but this is very limited. While it is true that some proportion of the Structural Funds has been set aside for marketing, it is channelled exclusively to marketing the particular project for which the Structural Funds have been made available, and does not extend to the overall Irish tourist product. The Structural Funds are certainly substantial with more than £400 million to be spent over a four year period. However, it has been a source of disappointment. The greater part of tourist accommodation and services is provided by small units. They must refurbish the accommodation to meet competition in the business. It is a source of disappointment that some part of these funds is not available to provide a financial incentive for the small family units so that they can refurbish and upgrade their properties. This would make the overall tourist product more attractive.
I wish Ireland every success at Expo 92. It affords us a unique opportunity of putting our best wares, including the tourism product, on display to a huge international market. I hope the Government and the Minister recognise the immense potential of the Irish tourist industry to make a contribution to the jobs crisis because tourism alone offers us the opportunity to provide substantial employment.
Essentially, all shades of opinion in his House support this Estimate. The opportunity offered by Expo 92 in Seville is of tremendous significance not just to our tourist industry but to industry in general. Essentially, we are providing a huge £4 million shopping arena in which our tourist literature and our products from large and small industries will be on display for the 80 million viewers. This is an exciting project and I wish it well. I wish the Office of Public Works and the full-time director appointed to the project, every success. However, we must ask why this is being funded from the national lottery. Does the tourism industry have to foot the full bill? Expo 92 is a trade fair and trade surely extends beyond the remit of the tourism brief.
I cannot quite understand why the money is being administered by this Department. I should like to know also why the national lottery will fund it. Since we are talking about an estimate of £1.25 million for the national lottery for a project that will cost in excess of £4 million in total, it is legitimate to ask: is it the Minister's intention that the total £4 million will come from national lottery funds? I do not see the case for the national lottery financing what are essentially national projects such as this. Should such projects not fall within the remit of the Department of Industry and Commerce or of the Department of Tourism and Transport? I cannot understand why these two Departments, which will be responsible for the control and implementation of this magnificent exhibition costing £4 million, should not be liable for the running and building costs. This is probably another example of central Government abusing the national lottery to implement projects that would otherwise be undertaken by various Government Departments. While the project is a magnificent one, I should like the Minister to explain why the moneys are being extracted from the national lottery fund rather than from the relevant Government Departments.
I should like to know also what will be the contribution of commercial enterprises. We must remember we will be spending £4 million of public money to provide this massive complex in Seville, presumably to sell such produce as Bailey's Cream, Waterford Glass, Arklow pottery, Dublin Crystal and so on. Since we are providing this massive service to industry would it not be fair to demand of them some financial support?
I note from the Minister's introductory remarks that there are to be 40 planned cultural events. These will be enormously intersting, exciting and of enormous benefit to the various groups who will be invited to perform, to act, sing or dance. While recognising our culture by way of language and dance form, we should be conscious that there is another aspect of our culture that should be projected. We should not leave the projection of our image solely to cultural groups such as Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann, excellent though they be, but we should afford the 18 million people who will visit this pavillion in Seville an opportunity to experience young, fresh, urban culture such as that which can be projected by our excellent pop musicians. We should remember that modern Irish music, performed by young Irish bands, can be as much an enticement to people to visit this country as can the projection of groups such as Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann or boys and girls in Irish traditional dance dress.
The arts are alive and well throughout the country and are particularly vibrant and strong in Dublin. In regard to the 40 cultural events, we should recognise that there is an urban pop culture which should feature. There is an image of Ireland that must be sold, that is, that we have a young, vibrant, modern face as well as that of the past.
I might ask the Minister also what proportion of the £1.25 million being provided in this Estimate will have to be expended in revising the marketing material already produced. For example, the former Minister for State at the Department of the Taoiseach, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, is referred to in this promotional material. Therefore, I presume this material will have to be revised. I wonder how much such revision will cost and how much of this material has already been published. The former Minister of State, Deputy Mrs. Geoghegan-Quinn, spoke about what this pavillion would be about, its benefits to our tourist industry and so on. Our image in recent years has not been well portrayed by the national media. I am thinking in particular of the recent scandals that have engulfed this country. I join with the former Minister of State in recognising that our best proven ambassadors in recent years have been the Irish soccer followers who travelled to Europe, who followed our soccer team in such a warm, clean, good-humoured manner. I want to recognise, as has been recognised in this promotional literature on Expo '92, that we as a nation benefited tremendously from the influx of Italian tourists, the direct result of the magnificent behaviour of our soccer fans during the World Cup series.
I note also from this promotional material that this pavilion, in addition to accommodating all the actors, actresses, musicians and so on, will accommodate other activities. For example, it is stated in this literature that inside the pavilion there will be a voyage of discovery, that visitors to the pavilion will step into a time machine, that they will walk through an ancient monastic site, see monks at work illuminating The Book of Kells, see the Brendan Voyage and so on. Given the fact that there is so much money being spent on this project out of national lottery funds, it is sad that while the 18 million people in Seville will be afforded an opportunity to enter this time machine capsule, something similar to that which obtained in Dublin at the Viking Adventure exhibition, that exhibition in Dublin, which was a tremendous success, is no longer operational. I contend that people in Dublin and nationwide would be justified in asking: if we can spend in Europe all this money, possibly £4 million out of the national lottery or, in any case, out of taxpayers' money, why can we not get the Viking Adventure exhibition operational throughout the year? Having given the 18 million people of Seville a sample of what they might expect to see when they visit Ireland, it is unfortunate that an exhibition here which proved so successful has been terminated. If we are to spend national lottery moneys promoting our country overseas, in Seville in particular, then why not ascertain whether there are not some national lottery funds available to allow that Viking Adventure Exhibition to be opened for a shorter period in the winter than in summer months? There needs to be continuity. The actors have performed extremely well and people from all over the country have visited the centre. They are keen to see the Viking centre remain a permanent feature.
I wish every success to those involved in organising and running Expo 92, the architects who designed the pavilion, the workers involved in putting it in place, those who will man it, the IDA and Bord Fáilte.
I question the provision of £1,000 in the Supplementary Estimate, to make provision for the expenditure in connection with the transition arrangements. The Irish Aviation Authority have about 600 employees and a budget of £32 million. What is the token figure of £1,000 all about? I congratulate the staff, workforce and managers of the Irish Aviation Authority and wish them well as a new commercial semi-State body.
I fully support the Supplementary Estimate which reflects the Government's resolve to continue to promote in a macro way this very important industry. The Taoiseach, and the Government, have shown an unprecedented level of interest in the promotion of tourism. Up to 1987 we were laid back in our attitude to this industry and did not appreciate the potential for job creation and improvement of the economy. It was only in 1987 that the realisation dawned. The Taoiseach set a new pace, appointing a new chief executive, Martin Dully, to Bord Fáilte and giving him explicit instructions to double tourist numbers within five years. Within the aim was achieved. Tourism has on the aim was achieved. Tourism has been growing at a compound rate of 15 per cent, which compares with a worldwide growth rate of 5 per cent. In effect, our tourism industry is growing at three times the world rate. That level of growth is commendable and all concerned should be complimented and congratulated. Tourism is the world's fastest growing industry and by the end of the decade it will be the largest single industry.
I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Lyons, on the passionate interest he has taken in his job. He has travelled throughout the country in the promotion of the tourism industry and has taken the trouble to visit my constituency on a number of occasions to open new projects or to launch tourism-related ventures. The example of the Minister, and of the Government, is the key. Tourism has been, I suppose, the Taoiseach's main hobby horse.
There was a hiccup this year in tourism growth, which was disturbed somewhat by what was in effect a world war. The aftermath of the Gulf War affected our tourism customers, especially in the North American market. We have nevertheless done extremely well and all the portents are for an excellent year in 1992.
Almost any individual or group can become involved in the promotion of this industry. Deputy Byrne mentioned our football followers in Europe. The superb example of their behaviour on foreign soil has been an enormous help and will continue to assist in attracting foreign visitors here. I have seen angling clubs take initiatives that attract tourists. Other bodies such as the vocational education committee in Wicklow have also become involved, despite the fact that one would not imagine they would be remotely concerned about tourism. These people must be encouraged in a practical way to involve themselves. In Wicklow we were totally laid back in regard to tourism until recent years and did not seem to want to know about it, even with all the Godgiven amenities we have. Because of the example set by the Taoiseach and the Government, a new enthusiasm has been generated and we have set up a new company, Wicklow Tourism Limited. They have taken on the role of spear-heading the efforts, both public and private, of promoting tourism in the county, and these efforts are paying off.
I understand that approximately 3,000,000 North American tourists visit the UK every year and that only about 400,000 of these visit this country. This is a very disturbing statistic. The Minister should endeavour to attract more of these tourists to Ireland. If they travel 3,000 miles across the Atlantic it should be possible to get them to travel an extra 60 miles to spend even a few days here before they continue their travels or return home. The Minister would have done a good day's work if he could achieve this.
I wish to refer to the excellent work being done by many of our State agencies, for example, Bord Fáilte and the Office of Public Works. The Office of Public Works played a major part in setting up the national park in County Wicklow which is totally tourism-related. One interpretative centre has been built and another is at the planning stage. These centres will act as focal points for the development of tourism in that beautiful county.
Wonderful work is also being carried out by CERT in training young people, which means we can offer a quality tourism product which is backed up by professionals. The chefs, hotel managers, bar tenders, waiters and waitresses trained by CERT have a professional approach to their work. This training is of a very high standard. The qualifications and expertise of the young people trained by CERT should be recognised in a very practical and tangible way. Hoteliers and others who employ these young people have tended not to pay them the proper remuneration for their qualifications and expertise. I have raised this issue in the House before and it needs to be addressed. People who are properly trained should get the appropriate level of remuneration and promotion if they are to stay interested in their jobs and remain in the industry.
Over the past number of years much grant aid has been allocated to the tourism industry. While this is very welcome more is required. I welcome in particular the European Regional Development Fund moneys and the agri-tourism grants which are related to agriculture. People in small towns and villages who get involved in an agricultural-related scheme can glean substantial grant aid for their projects. Recently a memorial park to the late great Charles Stewart Parnell was opened in my home town of Rathdrum on the centenary of his death. Funding for this park was raised by the local people through the agri-tourism scheme. I am endeavouring to make people in my constituency more aware of the benefit of this scheme.
The forthcoming Leader programme will be of benefit to many people, particularly those in rural Ireland. It will also be of benefit to tourism-related projects. This funding is very important from the point of view of attracting private investment. Without private investment we are going nowhere. Funding on a pound for pound basis will encourage people to invest in this very important industry.
Deputy Farrell referred to the business expansion scheme. It was proposed to do away with this excellent scheme in last year's budget and I am very grateful to the previous Minister for Finance, Deputy Albert Reynolds, for his practicality in deciding to leave the scheme in place to a large extent and allow people who had undertaken projects to avail of it. Fourteen projects in County Wicklow have been approved under the business expansion scheme. These projects are very important from the point of view of jobs. I am very grateful to the Minister for the action he took——
In anticipation of your attempting to outdo Thomas Moore and move in to the Vale of Avoca I wish to advise you that you only have one minute left.
I regret that. Nevertheless I will comply with your ruling. We need to continually stress the importance of our tourism industry and seek further markets, particularly European markets. In this context, I would refer in particular to the German market which I understand is the largest in the world and of which we have only a very small percentage — I think it is a half of 1 per cent. We should use every forum available to us to advertise our tourism facilities. We have a quality tourism product which we can promote and market for the benefit of our economy.
I think Deputy Jacob got an extra few minutes.
The Deputy would not begrudge them to me.
No, he did not.
I will be looking for some extra time.
The Deputy has ten minutes.
I welcome the decision to avail of a stand at Expo '92 which will be held in Seville next year. As a member of the Council of Europe I had the privilege of visiting this site two weeks ago. Having a stand at Expo '92 means we will be able to put Ireland on the map from the point of view of tourism. While I was in Seville I was told we had been very slow to take up a place. Those concerned were being pushed from one Department to another, which is typical, and the matter had to be brought to the Taoiseach's office to get a decision to go to Seville. There were only five or six countries which were not represented and it would have been very bad had we not been represented. I am glad we were represented but I hope we would not drag our feet in similar matters in the future. This matter had been mentioned to me and I did not take any pleasure on hearing it.
We have to look to the Continent for greater development of our markets. We must look to the EC, where there must be greater development to encourage integration of people moving around Europe. We should be looking for a large share of that movement within Europe. The Minister would do well to spend time visiting these countries and initiating projects within the Council of Europe to ensure there is a greater awareness of playing a greater European role within tourism. It is important not just that people visit Europe but also that they feel they are part of Europe. The best way to ensure this development is to encourage people to move across the countries of Europe, where there is great potential.
I note that we are setting up another semi-State body and I wonder what is the reason. When we encounter difficulties in Ireland we always set up a body or an authority.
A committee.
If we want to move part of the aviation service which heretofore was operated by central Government why not use Aer Rianta, even if it means expanding and developing that organisation further? That is not the approach, but rather one of setting up a new authority, thus creating more bureaucracy. We are plagued with bureaucracy. A pledge was given a few years ago that we would reduce bureaucracy; now, however, we are starting down that expensive road again. When an authority is set up and a fellow is given a table and a chair, after five years he has set up an office with lots of people working in it. One wonders why.
It is about time the Minister took Dublin seriously, because Bord Fáilte do not. I attended a meeting with Bord Fáilte recently and tackled them on the fact that Dublin is not well served by Bord Fáilte or by the tourist industry. Any of the leading hotels will say that their leanest months of the year are July and August. The only areas that appear to be doing well are the south and the west; the east, and particularly Dublin are totally ignored. The Government have been grappling with the issue of direct flights into Dublin from the US for long enough and it is time they grasped the nettle. This is all about numbers coming into the country. It is not about petty politics or regional politics; it is about getting people on seats and beds filled in hotels. The only way we can do that is by allowing direct flights into Dublin. Shannon will not die or disappear as a result: it will be alive and well.
Dublin has a lot to offer. It is an historical city — and we have had tremendous archaeological finds and developments of one kind or another, two great cathedrals, mountains and sea. It has all the charm tourists want, but it is totally ignored. Indeed, the Director General said the business people do not play their part. Bord Fáilte are charged with that responsibility. I want to see the Minister take a decision to allow direct flights into Dublin. He said he would do whatever is in the best interests of Ireland Incorporated. One would be very foolish not to realise that if we prevent direct flights coming in fewer people will come to Ireland. I have no doubt that the more people who come to Ireland the more they will filter throughout the country. It is about time Dublin Deputies took themselves seriously and set up a pressure group to get this done in order to improve the tourist industry, not only for Dublin but for the entire country. I want to make the point strongly that we are dithering and sitting on the fence for far too long and if we are serious about tourism——
Has Alan printed his report on the Shannon stopover yet?
I smiled when the Minister asked if he could have Deputy Dukes's report.
It is a recommendation.
If the Minister had done his survey he would know what it would reveal.
We take everything into account.
I am sorry, Minister; it is more sitting on the fence. Give us another report. Let us stop this nonsense and get on with the job. Tourism has great potential in this country for service industries and for jobs. Let us stop petty politics. Instead of a central tourist board I would like to see regional tourist boards involving competition between the various regions to attract people to those areas. There is nothing like competition for getting people moving. If we had more competition and a little less centralisation it would be better for all of us. Compared to Europe, the US and Australia this is an ideal country, with open roads, plenty of golf courses, good fishing and all the benefits that people living in the modern world today would want in order to get away from the rat race. Ireland is known for its tranquility and peacefullness, for people who are concerned and friendly — all of which is a tremendous help to our tourist industry. We need to take ourselves seriously.
I ask the Minister to ensure that Dublin gets its fair share of tourism. At present that is not the case, because we are not taking it sufficiently seriously. The way to take it seriously is to allow direct flights into Dublin. If we allow direct flights, as has been said by other airlines in the US, they will come in directly and even Kerry would benefit because those people would travel to various parts of the country. Friends of mine who come from Australia are told — I do not know who tells them — to get out of Dublin quickly. Who tells them?
You do.
I imagine Bord Fáilte tell them to get away from Dublin. Dublin has tremendous potential and we should utilise it and sell it. Edinburgh consists of only half a street, with shops on one side and the scenic beauty on the other. Dublin is ten times that size, yet Edinburgh gets more tourists each year than Dublin. That gives us an idea of where we are falling down, so let us take Dublin seriously and we will all be beneficiaries. I am not a parochially minded person, but as Dublin is the capital city I believe if we get people into Dublin we can get them around the country.
Gabhaim buíochas le Teachtaí ar gach taobh den Teach a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo. Déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall san am atá agam na ceisteanna a chuir siad a fhreagairt.
I thank Deputies for their contributions to this debate. I will do my best to answer questions raised. Deputy Farrelly raised the question as to the provision for marketing. A steering committee responsible for co-ordinating the overall project are actively seeking commercial sponsorship. A number of marketing initiatives have already been undertaken by the Department of Industry and Commerce, An Córas Tráchtála and the IDA. If Deputy Farrelly or anybody else can help with regard to sponsorship their help will be very much appreciated.
Will young people be given an opportunity?
Yes. The door is wide open as long as we get sponsors to supplement the funds already provided.
Deputies referred to stop-go funding in tourism. Funding for tourism has been constant in recent years. In addition to Exchequer funding we have the European Regional Development Fund and the International Fund for Ireland along with the resources of An Bord Fáilte. It is wrong to say that there is not enough money. We must acknowledge that Bord Fáilte are putting their resources to work and we must acknowledge the support of the industry in response to the programme put before them from Government. Do the Deputies in this House wish us to stand still when circumstances change, when there is a downturn in economies on which we depend for tourism? Are we expected to sit on the sidelines and moan? That is not our form. We acknowledged the changing situation by providing an extra £1 million in the budget for marketing. That is better than to stand still and do nothing. Extra funding was provided in the changed circumstances, with alacrity and with success.
The Estimate was reduced by £1 million. What the Government did was replace it in the budget.
I agree that we have a big problem in providing a car hire service for our visitors. The car council will acknowledge that on foot of discussions we have almost completed a submission to be considered by Government with regard to a car hire service.
I dealt with the question with regard to a reduction in air fares. A number of deputies referred to Aer Rianta. There is an ongoing role for Aer Rianta in parallel with the proposed semi-State company on air navigation. In the beginning charges will be a matter for that company. We can discuss these issues when legislation is introduced, but I do not accept that a single authority would produce savings on the scale suggested.
Have you investigated it?
We will have an opportunity to tease out all these things when the legislation is before us.
Would it not be feasible, to check it out before legislation comes before the House?
The Minister is concluding. This is not Question Time. The Minister to conclude without interruption.
I am only trying to be helpful.
Airlines are conscious of the need to attract visitors and they continually pay attention to fare structures.
With regard to funding for tourism marketing, the changes we introduced in 1987, by diverting money from grant aid to accommodation to marketing, is having a good effect. The marketing effort is right, having regard to availability of resources. Money is being spent on well focused markets. The effectiveness of that policy is evident in that we have achieved a growth rate of 15 per cent in the years up to 1990.
Deputy Byrne wanted to know why this Department have the co-ordinating role for exports. Our experience and our expertise have qualified us for the job. We are pleased to take on the challenge. Deputies referred to the question of the best ambassadors we have had. Some Deputy mentioned the World Cup. The success of our cyclists, Roche and Kelly was the start of that sort of promotion. Then we had the Dunhill Trophy in golf. I was abroad promoting tourism on both those occasions and I was proud to be able to refer to those competitions. I was in the UK in 1988 when our representative team for Ireland were taking part in the European Cup. I had the privilege of standing up in London that night at a function there and complimenting not alone the representative team but the quality and behaviour of our supporters. When I said earlier that we would be promoting our successes I mentioned our people. This has not been confined to one competition in recent years. Our supporters were a credit to us and I acknowledge that it made our job that little bit easier when promoting, particularly in Germany from where, since 1987, we have had an 93 per cent increase — admittedly from a low starting base — of visitors to Ireland.
On the question of manning the Expo stand, I deleted the word "man" from my script and substituted "staff", because somebody remarked on that. I will not go further into that. Let me say that £1,000 is just a token provision. It does not mean that everybody will be paid out of that £1,000.
In conclusion, I want to thank Deputy Joe Jacob for his contribution and many others for their efforts throughout the country. I should also mention that the axis for visitors to Ireland has moved from North America to Europe, although not to the total exclusion of North America. I am glad that Deputy O'Brien had the opportunity to visit the stand. Let me tell him that we are taking Dublin seriously and we had seven regional boards in the country.
We now move on to debate Votes 14 and 16.
The need for the Supplementary Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions arises from two factors. First, it is due to an insufficient provision in subhead E for general law expenses. Expenditure in this area is in respect of costs awarded to applicants in judicial review and other High Court cases and to defendants in criminal prosecutions.
It is extremely difficult to estimate with any degree of accuracy the level of expenditure in this area in any one year as it is dependent on the number of cases taken and the associated costs and expenses. The increase in 1991 over 1990 can be attributed to the following causes: (i) an increase in the number of cases in which the payment of costs was disposed of; and (ii) increases in the average amount awarded.
Secondly, it is due to increases negotiated this year in the fees paid to counsel appearing for the Director of Public Prosecutions in the various criminal courts. These fees are paid from subhead D. Apart from the application of general pay round increases, the level of these fees had not been reviewed since 1981. Fees had fallen out of line with remuneration for legal services in both the public and private sectors. The standard Circuit Court case fee for barristers prosecuting in the Circuit Court that was paid in the earlier part of 1991 was £240. A revised standard case fee of £350 was agreed. Agreement was also reached that other fees payable for work in the Criminal Courts should be increased accordingly.
The second Supplementary Estimate is for the amount of £100,000 for Vote 16 — the Civil Service Commission.
As Deputies will recall, a competition for 1,000 appointments to the Garda Síochána was advertised in the national press in June of this year. The Supplementary Estimate for £100,000, which I moved today, will cover the cost to the Civil Service Commission in 1991 of the first phase of the recruitment process. This is a technical Supplementary Estimate as equivalent savings will be made on the Garda Vote in 1991 to cover the cost of the competition this year.
The competition includes a written test and a competitive interview organised by the Civil Service Commission. All candidates who met the educational qualifications were invited to sit a written test. This was held during the week commencing 30 September last and was designed to measure general learning ability. A total of 12,269 candidates claimed eligibility and were called for the test in Dublin and in six provincial centres. Eight thousand five hundred and eighty-eight candidates — 70 per cent of the candidature — attended.
The Civil Service Commissioners have formally approved the results of the written tests, candidates have now been notified of their results and arrangements have been made for initial interviews. It is proposed to commence interviews before the end of the year in order to supply sufficient candidates to the Garda Commissioner to cover the first planned intake of trainees in April 1992.
This Supplementary Estimate covers the staffing costs involved in calling applicants for testing, timetabling and processing of results as well as non-pay expenditure on travel and subsistence, post and telephones and examinations expenses such as hire of premises and printing costs. The expenditure arises on subheads A.1, B.1, C and D.
Interviews will continue throughout 1992 and will be concluded by December 1992. Successful candidates will be admitted to training in accordance with planned intake. The final number of candidates to be called for interview will be determined as the competition progresses. In the 1988 competition almost 3,900 candidates were called for interview to yield some 1,000 trainees.
I commend these Supplementary Estimates to the House. If Deputies wish to raise any points, I will be glad to address them in my reply at the end of this debate.
I would like to avail of this opportunity in relation to the Estimate concerning the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions to refer to some aspects of our courts and the fact that there is a Supplementary Estimate here for the sum of £224,000 for fees payable to counsel representing the Director of Public Prosecutions in our courts.
I would like to mention an aspect of our courts that is causing a great deal of concern at the present time, that is the courts dispute. As you know, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, industrial action by court staff is now in its thirteenth week and has effectively brought the work of the District and Circuit Courts to a standstall. The Civil and Public Services Union has applied to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions for an all out picket. If this application is successful the country's legal system will be thown into total chaos.
I understand that the claim in dispute was lodged 17 months ago and while there have been some discussions recently between departmental officials and the Civil and Public Services Union, no progress has been made. The dispute centres on a claim by the union that members are being asked to deal with an increased workload and higher responsibility as a consequence of increases in the jurisdictions of both the District and Circuit Courts. It should be remembered that the staff involved are low paid workers and the cost of the upgradings is relatively small. What is currently in dispute is 17 posts with an annual cost of approximately £10,000. It is that aspect that I would like to refer to briefly. I am not in the begrudging business and I recognise that the counsel who represent the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions deserve to be paid what they are entitled to. For this reason I will not oppose the Supplementary Estimate but we should put the matter in context.
We are being asked to approve a Supplementary Estimate for £224,000 to meet the increased cost of counsel; yet, our courts are in chaos because of the dispute over 17 posts involving a sum of approximately £10,000 per annum. I put it to the Minister of State that if the current lodgment and search fees charged by the County Sheriff Offices, which were fixed in 1963 at 35p and 37p respectively, were updated to current money values the extra revenue would meet the cost of upgrading these posts. I am not asking the Minister of State therefore to dip into the pocket of the taxpayer to find the miserable sum of £10,000 to cover the additional cost involved. It could be raised by updating the fees which, I am sure everyone would agree, at 35p and 37p, are relatively small.
I am concerned that there is insufficient awareness of the seriousness of this dispute and the potential serious consequences for our system of justice and the commercial life of the country. I have sought to raise the matter by way of Private Notice Question and the Ceann Comhairle granted me permission to raise it on the Adjournment but the chaos continues. The Minister for Justice has a responsibility to ensure that an efficient and adequate court service is provided to the public. He is also responsible for industrial relations with staff employed by the Department of Justice.
For the benefit of the House I would like to outline some of the effects of the current dispute. First, applications for grant of probate and administration are not being processed outside of Dublin. Second, applications for bar extensions for special functions cannot be heard by the courts. Likewise, annual applications for the renewal of publican's and hotelier's licences, which the Minister of State at the Department of Tourism, Transport and Communications is interested in, and for the transfer of licences, will also be affected. Third, solicitors cannot check for a person buying a house whether the vendor of a property is in a position to sell and, consequently, house purchases and sales are being delayed. Fourth, certain time limits are imposed for the taking of legal action. In the absence of documents being stamped the time limit may run out for some litigants, that is, their claims will become statute barred. Similarly, time limits apply for appealing a judgment from a lower court to a higher court. No new civil claims are being processed. In relation to the Circuit Court and in particular to criminal cases, in most parts of the country outside Dublin no jurors have been summoned and no lists of cases have been printed. This means that the parties to a case, witnesses etc., will not know until the last minute whether their case will be heard and, if so, when.
There is a range of functions which clerical officers and clerical assistants are refusing to perform, for example, processing appeals from the District Court to the Circuit Court and from the Circuit Court to the High Court. They are also refusing to act as court registrars and process judgment papers, draft orders, civil bills, the endorsement of driving licences and disqualifications. If the Minister for Justice is unable to settle this dispute, then surely he can call on the services of an accredited and independent source such as the Labour Relations Commission to act as a mediator or abitrator. This dispute should not be allowed to continue. Even if the dispute is settled immediately it will take several months to clear the backlog which has already built up. The longer it continues the greater the chaos. I am using this opportunity this morning to appeal to the Minister for Justice once again to wake up and realise that what is happening in our courts is causing absolute chaos and affecting the ordinary individual in the ways I have outlined.
There are a few other matters that I would like to mention in relation to this Supplementary Estimate and the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. I have mentioned on many occasions, when legislation brought forward by the Department of Justice was passing through the House, that our system of justice in no way takes into account the victims of crime. I find it difficult to understand, as do members of the public, that if the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions decides to proceed with a criminal charge against somebody, the victim of the crime is not even paid the courtesy of being informed of when the court case is going to be heard. This is extraordinary. In the rape legislation we recognised at long last that the victims of rape should be consulted but with regard to other crimes the victim is forgotten.
Recently I spoke to parents who had lost their son in an accident involving a drunk driver. The driver of the vehicle was brought to court without the parents being told but, even worse, they discovered a sentence had been imposed and the person charged appealed it; they then read in the newspaper that the person had got a suspended sentence. If we call this a modern system of justice I will eat my hat. The least that should happen is that the people affected should be informed of an upcoming criminal case and that they can consult with the representative of the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions so that they understand and appreciate the procedures to be followed and the whole system. If a person's house is broken into and they report it to the Garda they may never hear another word about it. I am not blaming the current Director of Public Prosecutions for this but our legislation fails to recognise that there should be an obligation on the counsel for the Director of Public Prosecutions to consult with the victim and on the Garda Síochána to inform the person affected by the crime that a case is pending. If this were done there would be better co-operation, a feeling that the victim was not being forgotten and we would have fewer disgruntled victims in our society.
I would also like to avail of this opportunity to mention the legal aid system. The recent report of the Legal Aid Board clearly indicates that our present legal aid system is not working and that the fundamental rights of individuals are not being protected in so far as they do not have access to our courts. There is an obligation on the Government of the day and the Minister for Justice in particular to provide proper and adequate funding for the legal aid scheme and to establish the scheme on a statutory basis. The report, as I said, points out that the present spread of law centres is totally inadequate and that large areas of the country have no full-time law centre. The report also refers to the fact that delays of up to three or four months can occur in obtaining an initial appointment with a solicitor. This is followed by further extensive delays in having an application for legal aid processed. I do not think any society should tolerate, particularly in relation to family breakdown, a situation where peoples' fundamental rights are not protected. There should be a legal aid system on a statutory basis to provide basic protection for the rights of our citizens.
I should like to refer to the Estimate for the Civil Service Commission. We learned from the Minister's speech that 12,269 candidates applied to join the Garda Síochána and 8,588 candidates sat the written test. It is a credit to the Garda Síochána that so many of our citizens are anxious to join the force although, of course, it is also a reflection on current unemployment. I should like to make one point in relation to the operation of the Civil Service Commission. The Minister said that the Civil Service Commissioners have formally approved the results of the written test, candidates have now been notified of their results and arrangements have been made for initial interviews. I question that statement because people came to me — not asking me to interfere with the process of the Civil Service Commission appointments — to tell me they had received a letter from the Civil Service Commission informing them they had been unsuccessful. If somebody sits a written test they deserve more than a three line reply. When one does not get the result of a test there is always a doubt; I am not suggesting that anything improper is happening in the Civil Service Commission. I totally support the concept of an appointments commission and, for that reason, I am anxious that we should go a little further. As a result of a written test presumably points are allocated and, perhaps, the first 2,000 successful applicants are called for interview. That is the way it should be but those who were unsuccessful should be told where they were placed because they will then know that their test had been corrected. More notice and information should be given to applicants for positions of this nature so that there is absolutely no doubt as to the bona fides of the whole operation.
I do not oppose the Estimate, I do not begrudge the increases to those who will receive them but it is unfortunate that the whole legal system can be thrown into chaos because 17 upgradings for clerical assistants and clerical officers, at an annual cost of £10,000, will not be approved. This morning we are discussing an Estimate of £224,000 in respect of legal fees. I am not a begrudger, people are entitled to be paid for what they do and I should like to think that the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions would get the best people available to do the job on behalf of the State and pay them for doing it. However, there is more to our courts system than the judges and the barristers; low paid workers do important jobs. They have been in dispute for 13 weeks, they lodged a claim 17 months ago and we are now facing the prospect of the courts shutting down which will affect the ordinary citizen as well as those employed there. I do not think the Minister for Justice should tolerate this any longer, he should resolve this difficulty and if he cannot do it himself he should use whatever independent mediation sources are available.
This side of the House will not oppose the Estimate. I look forward to hearing the Minister's reply to the points I raised.
I do not wish to take up the time of the House unnecessarily. Deputy Barrett referred to the concern of every Deputy because representations have been made to my party — and I suspect to others — in respect of this matter. It would be nice to think that the Minister for Justice could resolve the dispute but, like any other Minister, he is not allowed to involve himself in industrial relations in a serious manner. This is really a problem in that part of the public service which is the responsibility of the Department of Finance. The Minister of State present has advice directly accessible to him in respect of this matter and he might be able to say in his reply whether the Department of Finance are blocking the upgrading of the 17 posts on the grounds that because there are analogous grades in other parts of the Civil Service they will be faced with a knock-on claim. If that is the case there is some legitimacy in resisting this point. However, these points should be made because this is a silent dispute. There has not really been much publicity about it because, unlike utilities such as electricity, transportation or more up-front services like education, these people do not have the same impact on the general public. I fully support what Deputy Barrett said in relation to the knock-on effect over time of this kind of reduction in the operation of our courts system. Access to law, to the courts and, consequently, to justice is an integral part of any kind of democracy, especially a democracy where the rule of law must prevail. We have a tradition of citizens being able to get reasonably quick and effective access to a relatively cheap system of justice. Certainly this dispute has gone on far too long and its history is an indictment of our industrial relations, systems and methods of resolution within the public service.
The dispute has gone on for 13 weeks and it is about to escalate to the point where there will be a virtual shut-down of the courts. It is an indictment of the management of our public service and unless they are acting on explicit political instructions from the Minister for Finance in respect of overall moneys then some explanation should be given. The Supplementary Estimate for the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions relates to the justice system and a sum of more than £357,000 is being sought. Therefore, we should get an explanation as to why additional moneys are not being sought to resolve this dispute. One could make the same point over and over again but the main point is how long the dispute will last. What is its full cost? Can the cost be recouped from the regime of the operation of the courts on the lines suggested by Deputy Barrett or in other ways, such as increasing fees, so that the direct charges are levied on those who use the courts?
I appreciate the Minister's remarks in respect of the difficulty of estimating the cost of barristers' fees. Apart from the showband business, the courts and the Law Library are probably the last unregulated, free market bastion of rampant capitalism or marketeering. Depending on how good you can sing, how much of your head you can shave or how much you can manipulate the market, it appears you can command extraordinary fees in the music entertainment business. I am basically cynical enough to believe that the same prevails in the Law Library. My esteemed lawyer friends would certainly rubbish such a base and crass accusation and would attribute the outrageous variation in the cost of barristers' fees to innate and invisible skills that are beyond the capability of mere mortals like myself to define. The range of barristers now in the Law Library — indeed we read in today's paper of their complaints about working conditions — and the increase in the supply of barristers, not forgetting that these are the people who would go to the death to defend free market principles, would suggest, if the textbooks still prevail in first year economics, that costs should be correspondingly reduced. Yet that does not seem to be the case. There is much litigation that is, comparatively speaking, routine, where all that is needed is a talking body to make the necessary representations to a judge. Indeed the expertise in the Director of Public Prosecutions' office could guide and assist young barristers, male or female, who do not have the necessary family connections to make a fresh start in the arcane world of the legal system.
I would like to hear from the Minister and his advisers as to whether given the enormous increase in the supply of professional talent, it would be possible to reduce the cost of barristers' fees. Why can we not select young barristers who do not hold the Director of Public Prosecutions office to ransom? We have read what pop singers can get for golden labels and singles such as that of U2 which is being publicised. It compares favourably with the fees that barristers receive on a daily basis in Dublin Castle for the tribunal. If that is an indication of the market value of such people then I take my hat off to them, but if the Law Library has a supply of 850 other barristers, and surely they are not all earning that much money, we should be able to shop around and get value for money, spreading employment and wealth in the process.
Obviously I make some of those observations tongue in cheek. Behind the net point I am making there is a validity that has to be addressed. I am not for one moment suggesting that a cheap barrister is an incompetent barrister, that someone who cannot charge the maximum rate that others get away with is necessarily less competent. Maybe they never get the chance to prove themselves or maybe their grandfather was not a Fine Gael Deputy or a Fianna Fáil Deputy in 1921 or 1922.
There are a few Labour fellows down there as well.
There are not enough; that is what I am arguing for. We all know that to crack the golden circle——
Do the Labour people hand back their fees?
——of the Four Courts one needs a certain family pedigree that very few people in our society possess. At the end of the day we look after them with pensions as well.
Briefly I will refer to the Supplementary Estimate for the Civil Service Commission. I have no problems with this Supplementary Estimate. Perhaps the bureaucracy in the Civil Service Commission system and its operations could be considered, although this is probably not the time to do so. To devise a panel of 8,558 people and to draw from that in the manner to which the Minister of State has referred is not unreasonable. As he has said, this is not a real cost because it will be recouped from next year's allocation so it is really a book-keeping exercise rather than an additional cost.
I will not detain the House any longer. I would just like to know if the additional estimate for barristers fees can be reduced. In the course of his reply perhaps the Minister would refer to the exact nature of the industrial dispute, whether there is a knock-on effect and, if not, why the dispute cannot be resolved.
I want to cover some of the ground that has been covered already. It seems surprising to many of us that the anachronistic, out-dated, closed shop system that operates for the legal profession, as distinct from the principles that they would apply elsewhere in the economy, persist. The Minister is quite happy to come before the House with a substantial Supplementary Estimate as a result of an increase in fees negotiated during the year while at the same time the same Minister has locked out 260 low paid workers at the courts. I see one of the distinguished civil servants shaking his head when I use the term "lock out". I am in as good a position as he to know what a lock out is, and as far as I am concerned this is a lock out. I do not know whether the Minister, Deputy Lyons, knows that.
I will tell the Deputy in a minute.
Despite the fact that these 260 low paid civil sevants have been involved in negotiations for a very long time, served a claim in 1990, finally initiated negotiations in February of this year and were forced to engage in a work to rule on 19 August, no serious attempt was made by the Minister or the Department of Justice to meet their claim. Whereas I suspect that the more recent negotiations probably have been derailed by the internal political turmoil on the Government benches, specifically within the Fianna Fáil element of the Government, I would like to be assured by the Minister that that is the case and that it is the reason the negotiations which took place last week did not reach finality. However that was not the case prior to 19 August. At that stage we were still living in the best of all possible worlds.
Tír na nÓg.
Milk and honey flowed, an economic miracle had taken place, there was unity in the Cabinet, the Taoiseach was to continue at least into the next century and everything was well. Therefore I cannot see why the shy and retiring Minister for Justice could not have applied himself to the question of the court strike before it reached the stage of a work to rule and even after it reached that stage I cannot see why the events of 10 October were allowed to be precipitated.
The fact that the pay of the senior of the grades concerned — clerical officer — starts at £138.96 a week and after 13 years reaches a maximum of £249.86 a week puts this matter into perspective. The maximum pay of the clerical assistant grade is substantially less than that. Therefore we are talking about a group of very low paid workers. We fixed a fee for the counsel at £350 —it had originally been £240 — but the people doing the work are on a rate of pay from £138 per week to £249 a week, if they remain in the job for 13 years, while clerical assistants are paid less. By any yardstick of equity or by any comparison as between the respective merits of the case which caused the Minister to bring before the House a Supplementary Estimate for £244,000 for barristers fees and the failure to even seriously negotiate the situation affecting the CPSU members, this seems extraordinary.
Because of the structure of the Bar, some barristers, as Deputy Quinn has said, get a very unfair shakeout and for that reason my party are not opposing the Estimate. However some of the top barristers will earn more between now and Christmas than one of the court clerks at present on strike will earn for the whole year. I do not understand how the Department of Justice — I am not making any claims above all Departments to understand the Department of Justice — can justify not even making a serious attempt to resolve the dispute and indeed rebuffing efforts to install a third party as an intermediary in this dispute. It escapes me. Deputy Barrett has dealt with some of the implications of this dispute, apart entirely from the implications for the staff who are on strike. The staff concerned can ill afford to be on strike and its implications for them are obviously especially serious. It seems to me that they have a reasonable case in terms of the recent Courts Act which changed the jurisdiction of the District Court from £2,500 to £5,000 and if memory serves me increased the jurisdiction of the Circuit Court from £15,000 to £30,000.
Quite clearly in those circumstances the demand for high quality pre-court processing is such that it is a reasonable claim for any group of trade unionists to put forward a demand for a small number of additional promotional posts. If my advice is correct, the cost of this will not total £10,000 for 1992, as Deputy Barrett has said; but a figure in the region of £7,000 which was agreed between the CPSU and the official side for 1992. There is no retrospective financial imposition; there is no financial imposition for the current year and it is estimated that the total cost for the following year will be of the order of £7,000. Perhaps Deputy Barrett is as close to the figure as I am but as compared to the £224,000 for Counsel, none of whom is living in poverty, it seems to be an extraordinary relative scale of justice to be applied by the Department.
Deputy Barrett referred to the effects of this dispute, which are very serious. The old aphorism that justice delayed can be justice denied, is still correct in a situation where there are time limits on litigation or in circumstances when cases that have been initiated can be statute barred. The implications are terribly serious. There is also a number of economic effects if this dispute is allowed to go on. I understand for example that the whole area of conveyancing will effectively have to be put in abeyance if the dispute is not resolved. There is an economic fallout which will percolate through our already reasonably stagnant economy if the causes of the dispute are not addressed and resolved as quickly as possible.
This dispute will require all of the manifestly suitable skills of the new Minister for Labour and it should not be nearly as taxing as struggling with MCAs, and the intricacies of Common Agricultural Policy reform. Provided he decides to take a more benevolent view of other people's points of view I do not see any reason that he should not chalk up an early success. I ask the new Minister, when things settle down, to devote his attention to this dispute in the immediate days ahead. Quite frankly it is unreasonable not to accept a third party intermediary in this type of dispute. The debate on the Supplementary Estimate, if it does nothing else, at least gives us the opportunity to ventilate this. I am quite sure that the Minister of State, Deputy Lyons, will devote a similar proportion of his reply as the three Oppossition spokespersons have spent in commenting on the issue.
I take this opportunity to underline the point made by Deputy Barrett which struck a chord with me, although it had not occurred to me before he made it. I have had a number of cases recently and there appears to be a change in the processing of particular alleged crimes where the file is passed on by the Garda to the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Garda are unable to tell the victim whether a prosecution will be initiated. It seems reasonable to request in these circumstances that the victim be told, whether through the Garda or through the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions, whether a prosecution will be initiated. In crimes of violence, it is apparently a matter of significant psychological importance to the victim to know that a prosecution will be initiated. The reason that Deputy Barrett's remarks struck a chord with me is that I have two such cases at present and I cannot establish either from the local Garda or from the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions whether prosecutions will be initiated. There is a time lag which is very difficult to explain to the victim, but even if the victim were advised at the end of that time lag, it would do a great deal to help him in his recovery. The support group which works with the victims of crime will tell you that this is the first thing the victim, especially the victims of crimes of violence, raises with them and they take comfort in the knowledge that the alleged assailant will be prosecuted by the Director of Public Prosecutions on behalf of the State.
May I just take issue with Deputy Quinn on a remark — perhaps I am being unfair and Deputy Quinn did not mean what I understood — that we should be glad that we have relatively cheap access to justice in this country. As somebody who has been forced into seeking justice through the courts myself——
Perhaps it was ill advised.
I do not think so. I could not see justice coming without resort to the courts. I could not necessarily agree that access to justice in this country is cheap, but it is especially not cheap for the poorer sections of our society who are depending on free legal aid. Indeed the report published by the Legal Aid Board for the years 1987, 1988 and 1989 seems to me to be a damning indictment of Government neglect of the civil legal aid system. For those who have the choice and can afford to pay for litigation Deputy Quinn's remark may be fair but it is not relevant for the sections of the population depending on the civil legal aid system. Any cursory reading of the report of the civil legal aid board for the three years I mentioned will show that it is a very serious indictment of the service. It must be more than ten years since the Airey case, yet we still have this very basic primitive infrastructure of civil legal aid in this country. It falls far short of what was envisaged by the European Court of Human rights in the Airey case. This is something I know about. In a constituency such as mine it is painful to have to tell constituents who come to one with minor cases that unfortunately involve litigation that either they cannot get access to the courts because they cannot pay for it or there is such a waiting-list that if they wait indefinitely they may get access. That is a fundamental point of democratic rights, but it is not a right or an entitlement that a great many of our citizenry have and there does not seem to be any sufficient attempts by the Government to acknowledge that those rights are being trampled on. It is an area in which it is necessary to establish an infrastructure capable of responding to the need that is there.
I do not really have any point to make about the vote for the Civil Service Commission other than that made by my colleagues concerning the fantastic number of our young men and women who want to become members of the Garda Siochána. I am quite sure, as Deputy Barrett said, that that is a comment on the esteem in which the Garda are held, but I suggest, with no disrespect at all to the Garda that it is much more likely to be a reflection of the state of employment opportunities elsewhere in the economy, and it is a pity that that is the case.
I have no reason not to support the Estimate.
Faoi mar a dúirt mé cheana, tá mé buíoch de na Comhaltaí a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo. Bhí sé beagán measctha anso is ansúd ach déanfaidh mé iarracht freagraí a thabhairt ar na ceisteanna a cuireadh orm.
I wish to acknowledge the contributions made by Deputies who have taken part in the debate on this Supplementary Estimate. A number of questions have been posed to me and I shall endeavour to satisfy the questioners. Some of the points raised are not relevant to this Supplementary Estimate but that does not, I am sure, preclude me from responding to the queries raised.
The courts dispute is not technically relevant to this Vote but there are a few points I should like to make, the matter having been raised in all good faith. For a long time there has been no unwillingness to discuss or to offer reasonable compromise on the part of the official side. Protracted discussions and correspondence involving both the Departments of Justice and Finance took place with union officials before the summer recess. Indications from union sources were that the upgrading of 42 posts would meet the union's aspirations. The suggestion being made that the courts' staff have been locked out——
Is accurate.
——is not accurate. Notices to that effect have been circulated to CPSU members generally, but it is completely untrue. Union members decided to attend for work and refused to carry out not merely work which was in dispute but also other work which they had traditionally performed and which was always accepted as appropriate to their grades. After more than a month of those tactics being experienced, it was indicated to individual staff members that failure to carry out essential and appropriate duties would result in their not being paid. The union initiated pickets. If somebody could qualify that process as a lockout——
Of course it is a lockout.
——then there is something wrong somewhere.
Do you expect people to go to work for no pay?
I can debate it with the Deputy at any time because he is not the only person in the House to know a little about trade union activity. He might have been well paid for it while he was at it but I did it voluntarily. I shall not get into the argument with him now but some day I shall, and he might not be so high and mighty as he thinks he is, dictating to us about trade union matters and trade union activities.
There is a lockout going on.
I shall bite that bullet with the Deputy any day he likes, but I do not have the time to do it now.
There is a lockout.
And I shall take no more of that jack-boot stuff from him on that aspect either.
Here is the place to do it.
I am doing it here now. I am replying to this debate, and I shall find an opportunity to debate that with the Deputy, too, some other time.
There is a lockout going on in the courts.
Please, Deputy——
I want to talk about——
Please allow the Minister of State to conclude.
I think we should refer this dispute to the Labour Court.
I think so. Other Deputies have spoken and I would like to have the opportunity to reply to their questions as well. I say to Deputy Barrett that the cost of upgradings is not small. We all know that upgrading has a domino effect. I shall be brief if Deputies will excuse the brevity of the replies because I want to get through as much as I can.
The criminal courts are by and large functioning satisfactorily at present. I do not think it is correct to say that staff are low paid. After all, the pay is fixed by an independent arbitrator.
If the Miniser found himself on the backbenches then he would know about low pay.
I am just making the point that their pay is fixed by an independent arbitrator. I would also say that the dispute is not about 17 posts, as has been indicated——
Is the Minister saying that they are well paid?
I did not say that, either. If the Deputy wants to say that, he is quite entitled to his opinions, as I am entitled to mine.
I am sorry but it is not Question Time now. Please allow the Minister to give the answers to the questions.
Allow the Minister to hold his job.
Would you allow the Minister to conclude and to give the answers to the questions you posed to him?
He should be in good humour on a Friday such as this.
Deputy Quinn, you must behave yourself.
I was provoked.
The business of the House is very serious business.
We expect serious answers.
I acknowledge that once in a while some levity is allowed, so please bear with me, I shall try to keep the serious business at hand.
Living on £138 is very serious.
As I said, the dispute is not about 17 posts. Rather, it is a trade union breaking away from normal industrial relations processes.
How many posts are involved?
In relation to the effects of changes in limit and so forth. I shall do my best to answer any questions.
Sixty-two from 79 leaves 17.
I want to mention that the effects of changes in limits as such was to put jurisdiction on the same real level as when the previous Courts Bill was introduced ten years ago.
Deputy Barrett raised the question of legal aid. I suggest that it is not relevant to this Supplementary Estimate, it is a matter for the Department of Justice.
The Minister should be here.
I have also taken note of the Deputy's comments on the lack of information from the Civil Service Commission. His comments are well founded and I will have his views conveyed to the commissioners.
Deputy Quinn asked whether competition among the large number of barristers should bring about a reduction in the real levels of their fees. That is a fair point but the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is competing with the private sector in their search for barristers. That office must be able to attract a good quality service. Private sector fees very often are higher than those paid by the Director of Public Prosecutions at present.
