Before the debate was adjourned I was referring to the interchanges which have been built in recent years at enormous expense to Irish taxpayers and the European Community. I have referred specifically to the interchange near Palmerstown on the N4 and the interchange near the Red Cow Inn on the N7. I want to emphasise that local authority road design teams are excellent. However, the restrictions placed on them make it almost impossible for them to carry out their job. For example, I understand that the design teams involved in the two interchanges to which I have referred were instructed by the Department that an underpass or similar facility was not desirable, necessary or acceptable for whatever reasons — usually these are financial. As a result, a second rate facility was built which has proven to be an accident black spot. This reflects badly on our seriousness to resolve problems which have existed for several years. It is a disgrace that those inter-changes have now become regularly identified with accidents. In the last few days I have seen further renovation works taking place which is another sad reflection at attempting to resolve the problem. When the new Authority produce a plan I hope they will have regard to the need for traffic to move as quickly and as safely as possible from A to B and that they will not adopt short term expedients to save money because, eventually, they end up as false economies.
Another matter which has come to our attention over the years is the number of traffic lights erected as a permanent solution to a problem on what should be reasonably fast roads. This was referred to by Deputy Andrews. In any other country the purpose of a motorway, or even a dual carriageway, is to get traffic from point A to point B as quickly and as safely as possible and in doing so to eliminate roundabouts, traffic lights and junctions. We have provided straight roads to get traffic from A to B but instead of providing easy and smooth access for intermingling traffic, to get on to the routes we have erected traffic lights. The traffic lights continue to cause the traffic congestion we have had over the years. Obviously, we have learned nothing. Our use of under-passes and fly-overs is amazing in comparison with other European countries. I do not understand why we have not paid more attention to them though I note that there are one or two exceptions. Instead of purchasing 40, 50 or 100 sets of traffic lights local authorities would be well advised to put in place a proper junction which would not necessitate lights. It would be as cheap in the long run. The benefit to the economy and the motoring public would be much greater. One could speak ad infinitum on this issue.
Members of local authorities have long since come to the conclusion that the officials in the Department of the Environment who are concerned with road building and transportation do not understand the problems or how the system should work. In the past the Department of the Environment felt local authorities were not the best people to operate the system and were not in the best position to assess local requirements. As a result they imposed certain restrictions.
Another danger is about to raise its head in this legislation. The Authority will, obviously, be in competition with local authorities for funds and that will be a serious issue. There is no question but that if after a short period local authorities discover their funds are being curtailed or restricted, arising out of developments proposed by the National Roads Authority, there will be a problem. Local authorities who are already in financial difficulties will be ten times worse off after a few years of operation of the Authority. I implore the Minister of State in the adjoining constituency to use his influence in this regard as a former member of a local authority and one who knows how that system works. Those of us who have been or are members of local authorities are only too well aware of the difficulties that exist. Those interests who have been calling for the establishment of a roads authority over a number of years are concerned with the national primary and national secondary routes. That is their remit and they are right to be so concerned but they do not understand the difficulties that beset the local authorities, which have been the roads authorities up to now, with the backing of the Department of the Environment. They do not understand how those authorities are affected.
The matter of urban roads is another issue the Minister, this Bill and the National Roads Authority should address. Areas close to expanding populations have problems not being experienced elsewhere in the country caused by the volume and weight of vehicular traffic. There is no compensation or recognition by any agency outside the local authorities to provide an alternative in terms of funding to resolve that problem. The result is that our minor roads are constantly churned up by heavy vehicles which criss-cross our towns and villages in an effort to escape the over-congested national primary routes and are severely damaged as a result of this traversing. Those vehicles travel on roads which were built 500, 600 or 700 years ago for lighter and less traffic. It is inexplicable in this day and age that we should expect roads, streets and parking facilities in towns and villages, within 20 miles of the capital city to cater for the volume of traffic that uses them at present. Reference has been made to this matter by Deputy Power. We all attended a public meeting recently in the town of Celbridge where this was discussed at great length. This is not on a national primary route but is very close to what will be a national primary route when a by-pass, which is due to start, is finished. Some 20 years ago the population of Celbridge was 700, now it is about 12,000. There is only one point across a bridge to the town from the city side. All the traffic from that expanding population has to go down the main street, cross that bridge to get on to the Dubin road. Almost 12,000 vehicles operate daily on that road. Some of the traffic is local and some of it drives through the Minister's constituency to Edenderry which is supposed to be a regional road.
There is reference in the Bill to regional roads and it is on them I wish to concentrate my attention. Regional roads are a very hazy area because they have no status in terms of funding except by way of special allocation. National primary and secondary routes are dealt with directly by the Department of the Environment. Main and county roads are dealt with by way of discretionary grants and from whatever other rersources the local authority may have. Regional routes are funded from those same sources and they are not catered for financially at present. In the context of this Bill I am afraid they will not be catered for because the reference to regional routes is hazy and vague. The Minister and his staff should take note of that problem.
To those who may say the local authority are given resources on a yearly basis to deal with them I say that is not true. I will give a classic example. For the town of Celbridge in County Kildare the total rate warrant is somewhere in the region of £340,000. That is a town with a population of 12,000 people. Some buildings in this city carry as much of a rate warrant. When one relates that kind of revenue to the population one realises the difficulty the local authority have to face. Until that is recognised by the Department the problem will not be resolved. It should be at least admitted that the problem exists.
While on that subject, the towns of Leixlip, Maynooth and Kilcock which were also mentioned by Deputy Andrews, are all within a 25 mile radius of this city and they all suffer from the huge weight of vehicular traffic which affects this city on a daily basis. Congestion in those towns is chronic. There have been repeated calls for financial assistance over the years. The national primary routes have been the responsibility of the Minister. I know the problems in those towns are about to be resolved at last but there are similar problems in various other towns in County Kildare. Towns and villages within a certain radius of the capital city are specifically affected by their proximity to the city. All the traffic is generated in one way or another by the capital city, by Dublin port, rail termini, airports and so on. The traffic must go through one or other of the towns and villages in the surrounding counties. Despite the pleas made, the problems of those towns and villages have not been recognised.
Nobody is prepared to accept that if we want to resolve the problems with regard to roads we must treat the area around the city as a special area to be dealt with as a whole as opposed to living on a county or constituency basis. I accept that the Minister cannot make a special case of every town and village. That would not be the answer. The answer is a recognition of the special problems with regard to infrastructure in the towns and villages surrounding Dublin. Neither the capital city nor the County of Dublin have the problems we have because in Dublin the commercial value of property is far higher than in country constituencies. Our people are looking at the resources available in Dublin and they are envious and are asking a whole lot of questions which I will not go into here today. If the Minister gave the sort of recognition for which I am asking, all public representatives would have their confidence in the Department restored and the taxpayers in those areas, although they do not like the intensive development that is taking place, would recognise that their requirements were being considered with regard to road transportation. Until such time as that happens the public will remain cynical. They see themselves being neglected and forgotten. That is not good for us or for them. That problem is a favourite hobby-horse of mine and I know that Deputies in neighbouring counties have referred to it as well.
I will not say any more about design flaws in roads other than that funds should not be discountinued at a crucial stage. When draughtsmen, engineers or design teams are preparing a plan they find that three-quarters of the way through there is to be a restriction on funds. There is a restriction then in the degree to which the road proposed will serve the public. There is a restriction in funds and in the safety factor. It is an area that should be examined.
I mentioned earlier the bureaucracy and red tape around road construction and land acquisition. We need at least a five to ten year programme. I hope that when the programme which will emanate from this legislation is produced it will be proceeded with until the end. We should get away from old stop-go attitude where in the run up to an election there is a sudden rush to draw up design plans. All Governments have done it without exception, and afterwards nothing has happened. Another well known ploy for a Government anticipating exit from office for any length of time is to ensure that preparatory or design work is not done knowing that it will take at least four or five years for people to advance the plans that are necessary and to proceed to bring the plans to fruition, so that they can go to tender and so on. I am sure that every Member of the House saw this happen but it is not good politics. It just sabotages the proposal for the foreseeable future. Then because of bureaucracy and red tape a few yards down the road there will be a technical problem and the submissions will be returned to the Department, sent back to the local authority and possibly referred back to the design team again so that another team can have a look at it. Eventually final approval is given in this long, protracted procedure which I understand is to be streamlined in the context of this Bill, which is long overdue.
Tolls have been referred to in the context of the Bill and provision is made for the re-enactment of the 1979 Act. Tolls are useful in certain areas provided the charges which apply are not too great. I can think of one or two places where the charges are creeping up to such an extent that the traffic which is supposed to use the toll bridges is escaping and using circuitous routes which are totally unsuited to the volume of traffic, in order to save money. The West Link bridge is one; we in County Kildare have the visitation of that traffic because of the level of the toll on the bridge. The heavy vehicular traffic is now using a series of roads through Leixlip in County Kildare — one a narrow road which is not even a regional road — because the toll is too high. If tolls are to be applied at all they must be pitched in a way that makes it attractive for people to use the toll bridges. If the toll is too high people will just set out half an hour earlier and use the alternative routes so that they can motor at a much cheaper rate.
There has been a suggestion that the N4 bypass would be tolled as well. The western bypass was long awaited. There were numerous representations to various Ministers for its implementation since long before I came into this House. If a toll is to be applied now, the result of which is diminuition in the use of the new road, traffic congestion may well continue in the towns involved after the bypass has been provided. If that occurs it would be far better not to get involved in tolls at all. The people who have campaigned for a good road for so long now find themselves having to pay a toll while their colleagues on the southerly circuit moving southwards can do so toll free. I cannot see the logic in applying a toll on one route but not on another.
I realise that other Members want to speak so I will conclude very soon. This is a subject particularly dear to the hearts of people living where I live. The Minister of State will recognise that. Suffice it to say that I am sure we will have other opportunities to pursue the matter further.
Reference was also made to the classification and the reclassification of roads. This is also provided for in the Bill. In that area I would draw the Minister's attention to the regional roads and the new urban road requirements. I would ask that when roads are being reclassified they would not be classified in such a way that they cannot attract funding from any quarter other than the local authority itself. Such a category will never receive funds from any quarter and that road will have all the potholes. I know the Minister is familiar with potholes in his own constituency. I know also that he has done his best to eliminate as many potholes as possible in his constituency. When he is finished there I would be more than happy to welcome him across the county boundary into County Kildare where we have some of the finest potholes the country has ever experienced. They are deeper and carry more water and, it has been suggested, wildlife has been known to exist in them. The Minister will be more than welcome to join us and help us to resolve that problem.
There are other matters which I wanted to discuss but unfortunately time always catches up on one. I would like to thank you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, for bearing with me. The Minister knows well what I am talking about. I am particularly glad that he happened to be sitting here during the discussion so far this afternoon. I hope he will take on board what I have said. It is not secondhand information but information I have gleaned from my own experience as a member of a local authority — and I do not necessarily always agree with what is said to me by so-called experts. However, at this stage of our political life we should be able to recognise the needs and respond to them.
