It is proposed to take Nos. 16 and 17, No. 17 to be taken not later than 5 p.m. It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) business shall be interrupted at 11 p.m. tonight; (2) the sitting shall be suspended today from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.; (3) in the case of the Second Stage of No. 17, the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications shall be called on not later than 10.40 p.m. to reply to the debate; the questions necessary to bring the Second Stage, including the making of an order for Third Stage, to a conclusion shall be put successively not later than 11 p.m.; and the order shall not resume thereafter and (4) Private Members' Business, which shall be No. 25, shall be brought to a conclusion at 8.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
Is the proposal for the late sitting tonight agreed?
On the Order of Business I would like to ask the Taoiseach why item No. 17 is being rushed through the House? It seems that this business is being taken very hastily and without a lot of preparation. It is very obvious that there is a very serious problem between the Minister and the board of B & I.
I would like to go through the Order seriatim. I will ask again is it satisfactory that business shall be interrupted at 11 p.m. tonight? Agreed. Is it agreed that there be a suspension of business today from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 17 agreed?
Sir——
Deputy Spring had been speaking on this matter.
I wish to speak on the item you have called.
I thought Deputy Spring was also referring to that matter.
He referred to it earlier and you did not say that he was out of order.
That is so.
I assume that does not give him an advantage.
Let us not have a row about it. I usally call the Leaders of the Opposition parties in order of seniority in respect of the numerical strength of their respective parties.
That is reasonable and is what I would expect from you, Sir. The Fine Gael Party object to the attempt to guillotine the B & I Line Bill. We do so because there are serious issues involved in this Bill concerning the maintenance of surface transport links between this island and the rest of the world and particularly in view of the competitive disadvantage at which Ireland has been placed in regard to the exemption of Britain from the social charter last night. It is very important that Ireland has competitive transport links if our industry is to compete with that of other countries.
I must intervene to say that we understand objections to the taking of measures but one need not go into detail. The merits or demerits of the Bill must not be mentioned at this stage.
I have stated my case.
The Deputy was relatively brief.
We are objecting to the manner in which this Bill has been brought before this House and is being rushed through the House; it is not in the best interests of B & I or, indeed, of the country. Again, I appeal to the Taoiseach to allow more time for debate on this matter and I will outline my reasons for this request during the debate.
The Workers' Party oppose the guillotine on this Bill and the manner in which the Bill is being taken. We are opposing it on the Order of Business.
I am putting the question then in respect of item No. 17.
The Taoiseach was about to speak.
Tá
- Ahern, Bertie.
- Ahern, Dermot.
- Ahern, Michael.
- Aylward, Liam.
- Barrett, Michael.
- Brady, Gerard.
- Brennan, Mattie.
- Brennan, Séamus.
- Briscoe, Ben.
- Browne, John (Wexford).
- Burke, Raphael P.
- Calleary, Seán.
- Callely, Ivor.
- Clohessy, Peadar.
- Connolly, Ger.
- Coughlan, Mary Theresa.
- Daly, Brendan.
- Davern, Noel.
- Dempsey, Noel.
- Dennehy, John.
- de Valera, Síle.
- Ellis, John.
- Fahey, Jackie.
- Fitzgerald, Liam Joseph.
- Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
- Flood, Chris.
- Flynn, Pádraig.
- Gallagher, Pat the Cope.
- Geoghegan-Quinn, Máire.
- Harney, Mary.
- Haughey, Charles J.
- Hillery, Brian.
- Hilliard, Colm.
- Jacob, Joe.
- Kenneally, Brendan.
- Kirk, Séamus.
- Kitt, Michael P.
- Kitt, Tom.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- Leonard, Jimmy.
- Leyden, Terry.
- Lyons, Denis.
- Martin, Micheál.
- McCreevy, Charlie.
- McDaid, Jim.
- McEllistrim, Tom.
- Molloy, Robert.
- Morley, P.J.
- Nolan, M.J.
- Noonan, Michael J.
- (Limerick West).
- O'Dea, Willie.
- O'Donoghue,John.
- O'Hanlon, Rory.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Leary, John.
- O'Malley, Desmond J.
- O'Rourke, Mary.
- O'Toole, Martin Joe.
- Power Seán.
- Quill, Máirín.
- Roche, Dick.
- Stafford, John.
- Treacy, Noel.
- Tunney, Jim.
- Wallace, Dan.
- Wallace, Mary.
- Walsh, Joe.
- Wilson, John P.
- Wyse, Pearse.
Níl
- Ahearn, Therese.
- Allen, Bernard.
- Barnes, Monica.
- Barrett, Seán.
- Barry, Peter.
- Bell, Michael.
- Boylan, Andrew.
- Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
- Bruton, John.
- Bruton, Richard.
- Byrne, Eric.
- Connaughton, Paul.
- Connor, John.
- Currie, Austin.
- D'Arcy, Michael.
- Deasy, Austin.
- Deenihan, Jimmy.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Dukes, Alan.
- Durkan, Bernard.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Finucane, Michael.
- FitzGerald, Garret.
- Flaherty, Mary.
- Flanagan, Charles.
- Foxe, Tom.
- Garland, Roger.
- Gilmore, Eamon.
- Gregory, Tony.
- Higgins, Jim.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Howlin, Brendan.
- Kavanagh, Liam.
- Kenny, Enda.
- Lee, Pat.
- McCartan, Pat.
- McCormack, Pádraic.
- McGinley, Dinny.
- Mac Giolla, Tomás.
- McGrath, Paul.
- Mitchell, Gay.
- Mitchell, Jim.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- Nealon, Ted.
- Noonan, Michael.
- (Limerick East).
- O'Keeffe, Jim.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Sullivan, Gerry.
- O'Sullivan, Toddy.
- Quinn, Ruairí.
- Rabbitte, Pat.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ryan, Seán.
- Sheehan, Patrick J.
- Sherlock, Joe.
- Spring, Dick.
- Stagg, Emmet.
- Taylor, Mervyn.
- Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine.
- Timmins, Godfrey.
- Yates, Ivan.
The final question to be put on the Order of Business refers to Private Members' Business. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' Business, Item No. 25, agreed to? Agreed.
May I ask the Taoiseach whether Cabinet has yet approved the Estimates which are scheduled for publication this weekend and, further, whether the Taoiseach will make arrangements for time to be provided before the recess to discuss the inspector's report on Greencore, which is scheduled for publication next Monday?
I have no information about any report on Greencore, but the Government propose to adhere to the timetable in relation to the Book of Estimates.
Have Cabinet approved it yet?
I propose to adhere to the programme.
Given the complexity of the agreements reached at Maastricht this morning, would the Taoiseach make available officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs to provide a briefing this afternoon, before tomorrow's debate? That would certainly be my request and perhaps other leaders in the House would also have that request.
That would be most unusual. I shall be reporting to the Dáil tomorrow morning and, on the basis of that, then perhaps we would decide whether any further information should be made available.
When will the draft Treaty be available?
I think it will take a little time. It is a very complex document and it was subject to change right up until 4 o'clock this morning.
Does the wonder of the word processor not allow us to have that document made available this afternoon? It is pointless to have the debate tomorrow without the Treaty.
I shall have the Deputy's views conveyed to the Secretariat of the European Community.
Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla.
Order.
Does the Taoiseach not consider that he has some responsibility to the House himself in this matter?
I have called Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla.
Would the Taoiseach not agree that he has some responsibility to ensure that the House is adequately informed on this matter?
Please, Deputy Bruton, I have called Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla.
I am delighted to assure the Deputy that I, together with my two colleagues, played a very significant, important and constructive part in the successful outcome of the Treaty negotiations.
Then perhaps the Taoiseach——
This cannot continue.
——could ensure that we get a copy of the Treaty before we are asked to debate it.
The Chair will be obeyed. I now call on Deputy Tomás Mac Giolla for a third time.
I wish to point out that the Estimates are later than they have ever been since 1986. I do not think that was the Taoiseach's intention. In the Taoiseach's early days there was an attempt to bring the Estimates forward earlier but since 1986 they have never been as late as they are this year.
In relation to the Maastricht Summit, I note that two hours are provided tomorrow for statements. Could I ask the Taoiseach whether he would put down a motion in order that the House may have a debate and ask questions of the Taoiseach to which he could reply at the end of the debate? I further ask the Taoiseach to extend the time provided beyond two hours.
Time is very scarce at this time of the year. The usual practice is to deal with the matter at this stage by way of statements but, as I have already said, on the basis of the information that I shall be able to give the Dáil tomorrow and Deputies' reaction to that, consideration can be given to the way in which the Dáil could be further informed of all the various complex issues involved.
Would the Taoiseach——
Please, Deputies.
On that issue——
Order. There are too many Members rising just now. I must dissuade Members from the notion that we can debate this matter now. A debate will ensure tomorrow.
A Cheann Comhairle——
I do not want to debate. I want to raise——
It is only a statement; it is not a debate.
I call Deputy Spring.
In the interests of tomorrow being constructive and helpful, I wish to ask the Taoiseach when he expects the text of the conclusions of the Council to be available to Deputies or to be put in the Library of the House.
I think I can make them available immediately.
Could the Taoiseach say whether during the Maastricht Summit he had an apportunity to discuss with the British Prime Minister — in an unofficial, off the record manner — the plight of the many homeless Irish people in the capital city of London?
Such matters can be proceeded with by way of question at the proper time. I call on Deputy Jim O'Keeffe.
It is a very serious matter.
I thought that the Deputy had something relevant to raise on the Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, I wish to raise with the Taoiseach a couple of points. The Taoiseach mentioned the very short number of hours available to debate the developments in Europe. I suggest to the Taoiseach that that is further evidence in support of the view that a foreign affairs committee should be set up immediately. In the light of the Taoiseach's own admission that we have not time in the House to debate the matter, would he not——
This matter has been raised in the House very often of late.
I can only assure you that it will be raised as long as is necessary until a foreign affairs committee is set up. The Taoiseach has himself accepted that we do not have enough time in the House to debate developments in Europe. I am told that the Treaty——
Please, these matters are not strictly related to the Order of Business.
I am talking about the establishment of a foreign affairs committee.
That would not normally be proper at this time.
I am told that the Treaty runs to 50 pages, so, obviously, it will require very careful analysis. I feel that the only way in which proper consideration can be given is on the basis of a foreign affairs committee.
The Deputy is embarking upon a speech.
Could I urge the Taoiseach——
Please, Deputy. I call on Deputy Michael Noonan (Limerick East)
Could I get a reply from the Taoiseach on that? That is the purpose of my raising the matter.
I have already dealt with the question of a foreign affairs committee on countless occasions.
And why have we not got one?
PLease, Deputy O'Keeffe. I call Deputy Michael Noonan.
Why have we not got a foreign affairs committee?
This is not Question Time, Deputy O'Keeffe.
This is outrageous treatment of the House by the Taoiseach. It is a clear indication of his undemocratic tendency to ignore the House.
Deputy O'Keeffe, please desist.
I will be back on the issue as long as it is necessary to do so.
(Limerick East): Can the Taoiseach say whether the Book of Estimates will be available to Members of the House before the House adjourns on Friday of this week?
I could not be sure of that. I could not be sure that they would be ready by this Friday.
A Cheann Comhairle, may I refer the Taoiseach to the Official Report of 3 December 1991, column 1953, when he told me, in answer to a question about when the B & I Bill would be introduced, that it would not be this session. At the time the Bill was with the printers and was rushed out the following morning, 4 December, by the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications.
To what Bill is the Deputy referring?
The B & I Bill, for the sale of the B & I Line.
That is under discussion in the House.
A Cheann Comhairle, the point is why did the Taoiseach tell me, when the Bill was with the printers, that it would not be taken this session and the Minister rushed it out the following morning? What is the explanation when we now know there was a sweetheart deal being adopted?
The Deputy can refer to that aspect of the matter in his speech on the subject.
It was clearly said. The Taoiseach should clarify the position.
This is not the time.
It is the time.
The Deputy should table a question to have it clarified.
The Taoiseach already misled the House on the question he was asked, in that he said he could not take it, yet it was published the following day.
I have never misled this House.
Cross my heart and hope to die.
A Cheann Comhairle, I am referring the House to the Official Report of 3 December 1991, column 1953.
Sorry, Deputy Rabbitte, this is quite unusual if not disorderly.
It is not usual, a Cheann Comhairle, that is why I am raising it.
Please, Deputy Rabbitte, the Bill is before the House for discussion. It is totally out of order to raise matters——
But the Taoiseach said it will not be taken in this session, as reported at column 1953 of the Official Report of 3 December 1991. Can the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Communications explain why he rushed it out the following morning?
Deputy Rabbitte, please desist and resume your seat.
Is it not in order for a Deputy to raise with you in the House a matter in respect of which it was alleged that another Member of the House, in this case the Taoiseach misled the House and seek to have the matter clarified?
Deputy McCartan, there are ways and means of doing so but this is not the time.
When is the time?
The Deputy should put down a question.
It is a matter of the privilege of this House being abused and of the House being misled by the Taoiseach. It is on the record of the House and should be clarified.
Deputy McCartan makes a point of challenging the Chair on a point of order when the Chair is dealing with disorder. I must advise him that he may not continue that practice.
I am seeking clarification. Is it not in order for a Member of the House to seek to have the record clarified where it is apparent——
It is indeed, Deputy, at the right time but not now.
A Cheann Comhairle, I challenge that this is the right time.
The Deputy is challenging the ruling of the Chair again.
Deputy, please, I will hear no more of this. I am calling Deputy McCormack.
A Cheann Comhairle, you asked the Deputy to put down a question. When he put down a question he got a wrong answer.
There are many ways of dealing with the matter, Deputy, but not now.
What other redress have we? There is no other place we can have redress. This is the place we can ask the Taoiseach why he made that statement and gave us false information.
If Deputies do not respond immediately I will proceed to the next business.
Does the Taoiseach or the Minister for Agriculture and Food propose to offer any advice to Mr. Joe Rea and the Teagasc board, who meet tomorrow, to close ten agricultural institutes?
I am proceeding to the business of the House now. Item No. 16.
A Cheann Comhairle, this is a very serious matter, the closure of ten agricultural institutes, including two in my constituency at Belclare and Athenry.
Deputies must desist from the practice of raising matters which are clearly out of order. The Deputy knows it.
It is very much in order and will be out of order on Friday next.
The Minister for the Environment recently gave effect to the building regulations by way of regulation and stated at that time that the regulations for their administration would be implemented at the same time. Would the Minister say when the administrative regulations will be implemented?
I will communicate with the Deputy about that and let him know.
Will the Taoiseach tell him the truth?