Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 1991

Vol. 414 No. 5

Adjournment Debate. - Social Welfare and Justice Matters.

Mr. Nealon

May I take this opportunity to congratulate the new Minister on his promotion and wish him every success in this portfolio. I should say that in the past, in his other ministerial capacities, I found him very good, very efficient and very co-operative.

During the week, in the course of my constituency work, I had a visit from a small farmer who had been turned down for unemployment assistance because of his farm income, as calculated by the Department of Social Welfare. There is nothing unusual about that nowadays. Naturally, I asked my constituent what was his estimation of his income and his reply was the following: "Deputy Nealon, the kind of place I have it does not keep you, you have to keep it".

That was as neat a summary as one can get of the present plight of small farmers in the west. Sadly, it is a fact of life that no one seems to be able to get across to the Department of Social Welfare. The Department, for all their merits, have a blind spot in this area. Once they find a cow then they claim that cow is making a designated profit. Once they find a store animal for the mart, then they say that animal is going to make an ordained profit, even if its bones are coming out through his hide. The same applies to sheep. Worse still their assumed profits are calculated on prices that obtained two to three years ago so that the dole or the old age non-contributory pension is lost or reduced. There is no allowance for what happened to prices in the meantime. I will give some examples. In the North Connacht Farmers' Co-op area — Sligo, north Leitrim, Mayo, north Roscommon, north Galway and south Donegal — in 1990 milk prices were down 18 per cent, store cattle were down 20 per cent and sheep were down 35 per cent. The co-ops's payments to farmers in 1989 were £87 million, this year they will be £72 million; that is when input costs have increased.

In the last month, November, total prices paid by North Connacht Farmers' Co-op for cattle was down by 21 per cent while the number of cattle sold by them was up by 15 per cent. Teagasc, the organisation responsible for official farm returns, acknowledge this drastic downturn in the income of the small farmers of Sligo, Leitrim, Mayo and the west generally. However, as the Minister knows from his constituency work — he is a diligent constituency worker — the Department of Social Welfare have not readjusted to reality. They do not appear to have the flexibility to deal with these changes. The impression I get is that they regard the present price recession as temporary and are basing their findings on the past and on an assumed future pickup. That pickup is not going to happen. The present Common Agricultural Policy proposals are for a further 10 per cent drop in milk prices and 15 per cent in beef.

I am not asking for any allowance for that until it happens. What I am asking for is a directive from the Minister to the Department to work with the prices that now exist, not the historic high of a few years ago.

Minister for Social Welfare (Mr. Daly)

First, I would like to thank Deputy Nealon for his good wishes. Certainly, I can assure him that I will endeavour to deal efficiently with whatever complaint he has.

Mr. Nealon

I thank the Minister.

Mr. Daly

He has raised a specific case. If he supplies me with details of the case I will have it examined as a matter of priority and deal effectively with it. The legislation has the flexibility to deal with fluctuating farm incomes. The Department are always willing to re-examine the means of any client whose income from farming has fallen.

Means from farming for unemployment assistance and for non-contributory pension purposes is assessed under specific provisions of the Social Welfare Acts. The legislation provides that the yearly value of any advantage accruing to the claimant from the use of property — other than property personally used and enjoyed by the claimant, such as a dwelling — is assessable for means.

The value of the yearly advantage is essentially based on the income from the farm less any expenses actually and necessarily incurred in earning that income. The basis of the calculation is the net, income from the farm over the 12 months preceding the date of the investigation adusted where necessary to reflect significant changes in farm prices or any other factors which will impact on farm incomes. From time to time there are cases where farms are infected by animal diseases which seriously affect their incomes. There is provision for taking that deterioration in income into account. This means that in assessing means, account is taken of the current level of and emerging trends in farm incomes.

I should like to state for the benefit of Deputies that it is open to smallholders in receipt of unemployment assistance or non-contributory pensioners who consider they may be entitled to a higher rate of payment as a result of a significant reduction in their means due to a decline in farm incomes to apply, in the normal manner, to have their means assessment reviewed. Such cases would generally be reviewed at some later date so that the ongoing means assessment would reflect the normal situation. Smallholders who now consider that they might be eligible for unemployment assistance as a result of a fall in their incomes should also apply to the local offices of the Department of Social Welfare to have a re-assessment of their means carried out. Pensioners should apply to the pension services office which, as the Deputy is aware, is in Sligo, his constituency.

The relevant legislation and the interpretation of this legislation are kept under review to ensure that it accurately reflects changing circumstances.

I would point out also that despite the deterioration in farm incomes there has been no upsurge in requests for means reviews from existing smallholder claimants nor is there any upsurge in fresh applications from smallholders. I would not say that the great bulk of small farmers — about 12,500 — in receipt of assistance are all satisfied but there has not been any upsurge in new claimants nor is there any upsurge in applications to have means re-assessed on the basis that incomes have declined because of changes in farm incomes during the past year.

This matter cannot be dealt with in a general way. Each case will be examined on an individual basis and will be treated on its merits. If the Deputy has details of the claimant with whom he spoke I will have it examined thoroughly and will communicate the outcome to the Deputy.

Mr. Nealon

I thank the Minister.

Mr. Boylan

I thank the Chair for allowing me to raise a very important national issue. Before dealing with it I join with Deputy Nealon in wishing the Minister for Social Welfare, Deputy Daly, every success in his new portfolio. As Minister for Defence I found him very co-operative and forthcoming. This matter does not relate to the Minister for Social Welfare but rather to the Minister for Justice. With all due respect to the Minister for Social Welfare I regret that the Minister for Justice, even at this late hour did not come to deal with this important issue which relates to the liability attached to farmers and landowners nationwide when people us their land for any reason.

The people of rural Ireland have always extended goodwill to visitors whether from at home or abroad who wish to use the countryside for sport, game shooting, hunting or who wish to have access to rivers and lakes. The liability attached to this good will is more than farmers should be expected to take. If somebody is injured on a person's property, the owner of the property can be held liable. For his goodwill a farmer could find himself having to sell out. Farms in this country are small and some are picturesque and are open to tourism which is a vital national interest we are trying to develop but to develop tourism we need the goodwill of farmers and land owners. People should be able to park their cars in laneways, driveways and farm yards and go across country to pursue whatever sport they wish.

The goodwill is there at present but it has come to my notice that many farmers have been advised by their farm organisations or solicitors that they should notify guesthouse owners who house visitors, that the visitors are no longer welcome on the land. Notices to this effect have been posted on many farms, and gates have been locked. This is a retrograde step. The farmers have the right to protect their property but, with or without permission, if a person is injured on private property, the farmer can be held liable. The Minister should introduce legislation to amend this outdated law so that the goodwill can continue and tourism develop unhindered. If the Ministers takes my comments on board as well as comments made on the radio and in the national newspapers recently he will realise that concern is being expressed and that it is time for legislation to be brought in.

Mr. Daly

I thank the Deputy for his remarks. The Minister for Justice is aware of concerns expressed by farmers in relation to their possible liability in law for personal injuries which may be sustained by entrants onto their property. Farmers are particularly worried about their legal obligation to sportspersons in particular and are threatening to deny them access to farmlands. This anxiety arises from a perception that the law as it stands is unclear and that the farmer is vulnerable to claims for injury. Whatever about the accuracy of that view farmers want a statutory provision which would exempt them from any liability or duty of care to any person who uses their land for sporting or recreational purposes.

The area of the law concerned is occupiers' liability. It is complex and involves many groups other than farmers including all people who own property, industry and business interests, ordinary householders, sporting organisations, local authorities and the State itself. For this reason I took the view that the subject is an ideal one for consideration. I experienced this as Minister of State at the Department of Finance with responsibility for the Office of Public Works. People who had monastic settlements and historic sites on their property had problems with people gaining access to these areas. For this reason the Minister took the view that the subject is an ideal one for consideration by the Law Reform Commission. The problems posed are topical and practical and directly affect many different and opposing interests. The commission by following their usual practice of publishing a consultation paper on the subject, would be in the best position to elicit the views of the many interests involved and to make recommendations for changes in the law. Conscious of farmers' concerns the Minister for Justice discussed the matter with the Attorney General in recent weeks and he agreed to request the commission to examine the law relating to occupiers' liability and to prepare a report for him with recommendations. That is the present position so far as the Minister for Justice is concerned. This relates to occupiers' liability, a very complex and involved area, and the Minister feels that the Law Reform Commission are the best people to examine this and to make recommendations on it.

Mr. Boylan

I thank the Minister for his very detailed reply.

The Dáil adjourned at 12.15 a.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday 12 December, 1991.